| Author |
 Topic  |
|
Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
 Posted - 25 Feb 2017 : 23:45:23
|
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
And Baba Yaga is known to both worlds and those same regions (although 5e has changed her name, and her hut. probably BECAUSE Paizo used her).
TSR used her long before anyone had ever thought of Paizo or even 3E.
What is she called, now? |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen!  |
 |
|
|
Zeromaru X
Great Reader
Colombia
2443 Posts |
Posted - 26 Feb 2017 : 00:50:17
|
| That's weird, because Baba Yaga was part of 4e canon as well (specifically, she is one of the archfey of the Feywild). I don't believe Paizo using her has nothing to do with the change of name. |
Instead of seeking change, you prefer a void, merciless abyss of a world... |
Edited by - Zeromaru X on 26 Feb 2017 00:51:11 |
|
|
|
Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7970 Posts |
Posted - 26 Feb 2017 : 02:05:57
|
Baba Yaga was a character of folklore, folktales, and myth a long time before TSR or WotC or Hasbro or Paizo ever existed, lol. Documented references date back to before the mid-18th century, artistic depictions found on cultural artifacts and in old pagan shrines and dug up from burial sites date back to ancient times, widely uniform dispersal across ethnic populations and even linguistic cues suggest origins which even predate Christianity. Baba Yaga shares many common elements with even older myths and legends describing crones and crazy witches and magics - across vast regions of Eurasia - although these are more tenuous and speculative. Suffice to say that Baba Yaga is well established in public domain and intellectual property (monopoly/branding/licensing) claims on Baba Yaga would be superficial at best.
I can understand Wizbro deliberately deciding to distance itself from Paizo. I can understand Wizbro deliberately deciding to distance itself from "pagan" things and "demons" and "devils" and all the other nasty "evils" which are now legally associated with confused, suicidal, vulnerable teens who take their roleplaying games (and sometimes also their religion) far too seriously to remain sane and healthy.
But if Baba Yaga could be legally identified as an "owned" property then, based on prima facie alone, TSR/WotC/Hasbro does have a more valid claim than Paizo.
And the holder of Gary Gygax's intellectual properties - which might or might not be the inheritor of TSR - could make a strong claim as well. And Wizbro would have to choose between defending their IP in court or letting the "piracy/poaching" continue uncontested, and either way could cost them a ton of money. Perhaps not a realistic scenario to us - those of us who think rationally and realistically, lol - but all too dire a threat from the perspective of bloated deadweight executives who want to guarantee their soft jobs remain fully secure until retirement. |
[/Ayrik] |
|
|
|
Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 26 Feb 2017 : 07:57:50
|
I'll have to check on that tomorrow, Wolly - I only came across it yesterday or the day before, and I was like, WTF? The name sounds similar but different, and her hut looks like its walking on spider legs now, except they aren't actually spider legs, they're tree roots. I just checked a couple of books I bought recently and don't see it, so now I'm thinking it was in a post-3e Dragon (or Dungoen) magazine article. I'd keep looking, but I need some sleep - helping someone move all day tomorrow.
Its possible they still have Baba Yaga as well, but that'd be weird, having two witches/hags so similar. Unless they purposely connect the lore - like saying that all arch-hags eventually get one those hella-kewl mobile homes. As for why they'd replace her (if they did), maybe Wotc saw all the focus Baba Yaga was getting in PF/Golarion, and decided they didn't want to help their competitors (because if you Google the name and D&D, you find lots of another company's products). |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
|
Edited by - Markustay on 26 Feb 2017 07:58:57 |
|
|
|
sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11700 Posts |
Posted - 26 Feb 2017 : 15:32:49
|
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
My biggest problem with the whole Ao thing is that he seem to be THE God in a lot of ways, even making rules for multispheric (non-FR specific) powers. Also, what I suspected all along about FR - thats its some sort of 'fulcrum' of the multiverse - has become fact in 5e, which makes Ao WAY more powerful be default. And at the same time, if he has powers/influence beyond Realmspace, then who is his 'Boss'?
Back in early 2e they said there were other 'overpowers' on Toril itself (which they quickly did away with), which made him only slightly higher-up the food chain than deities. By the end of 2e, he was THE God... but only of Realmspace. Now he seems to have a LOT of power - like creating Abeir and even affecting other settings - that I don't think he should have. Maybe the Ao in the novels and the beginning of 2e 'got fired', or rather, got re-absorbed into something greater, that is now taking a more direct hand in things itself? (meaning, Ao was also an 'avatar' of an uber-overpower, which works for me only because I think EVERYTHING is part of something higher up - the universe is just one big Ponzi Scheme). I mean, he went from feeling a wee bit threatened by Cyric, to changing the memories of entire crystal Spheres, to creating worlds whole-cloth, AND rules over a goddess who has a minion (Azuth) that got absorbed by Asmodeus, and that gave Asmodeus enough power to change the entirety of the Cosmology and rearrange planes. So if one of Ao's underlings has a minion that had that much power, than what the hell is Ao? 
And better yet, just what the heck is/was Mystra/Mystryl? That stuff goes WAY beyond deity-level power. Perhaps even beyond Overgod power.
Well, one thing I'm stressing in the other thread I just started is that what we're hearing about Ao is not from Ao and its not from the gods. Its from sages hearing stories and "putting together the big picture". I personally think those sages got it all wrong, for the reasons like you state.
I'm starting to think Ao didn't create Abeir. I'm starting to think something happened when Asgorath/Io "touched their breath" to that "ice moon"/"crystal sun"/"giant waiting egg in the sky". I'm starting to wonder.... did that BIRTH alternate realities.... did that BIRTH Mystryl... did that FRAGMENT THE WORLD SERPENT (and is this world serpent related in any way to Asgorath... the "sages" think Asgorath was a primordial, but was she/he?)... Hell, did this not only birth Abeir, but possibly even other crystal spheres (like Krynn and Greyhawk)... though I'm gonna go out on a limb and say that that last bit won't be favored by others.
We can gather that at the time that Asgorath/Asgoroth did their thing with the big round thing in the sky, they then died. I can buy that if an "overgod/great primordial/big bad dude" KILLS THEMSELVES that maybe they can spin off some alternate world/universe. In fact, I kind of like that idea. In this instance, from their remains came mortal dragons and AT LEAST two lesser draconic entities that hate each other (Xymor and Tiamat OR Bahamut and Tiamat OR Marduk and Tiamat OR MAYBE EVEN Paladine and Takhisis).
It could have spawned OTHER deities as well. For instance, Kereska (draconic goddess of magic whose symbol is a 5 pointed star). If we assume that this act was the act that birthed "Mystryl", then perhaps "Mystryl" and "Kereska" are related (or were the same being). Possibly even later the two are separated out (perhaps when Mystryl died she possessed MORE than just a human girl named Mystra... perhaps she possessed a dragon named Kereska... perhaps she possessed a unicorn named Lurue... )
For all we know, this is how even Ao was born (possibly coming from the husk of Io/Asgorath/Asgoroth as a weakened entity).
Also, on the idea of other Overgods... assuming we have Ao, there's also Lendys and Tamara. In fact, to a degree, Tamara could be some kind of "relation" to Selune (both being deities of life and light). Lendys almost feels like Ao with his uncaring nature. Their duality almost feels like the Ao/Po duality that I started this thread with.
Hmmm, just because I've thrown around a lot of ideas here, maybe it might be worth listing "possible" overgods, maybe with some notes about them as well. Many may have fractured out. Many may have left.
Some of these beings may indeed be the same entity (I'm really hesitant to do that, but...). It almost seems like Annam/Kukul and Othea/Maztica and Lanaxis/Zaltec could all be related, but I'd resist that urge as the stories conflict as you peel back the onion more. I'd be more inclined to say that Othea/Maztica are more like sisters of Chauntea that come from a shattering of "the earth mother" whenever Abeir and Toril were severed.
List of possible "Overgods"
Ao
Kukul (notes: says he created humans from his own fingers. Earthly wife, Maztica, is killed by son Zaltec out of jealousy of Qotal. Kukul "leaves" when wife dies)
Annam (notes: His last "mortal" son mates himself with humans. Earthly wife, Othea, cheats on him. He has both deific children by an "unknown sky goddess" and children that could have been something akin to "Archfey"/"Primordials"/"Manifestations". Noting that his dalliances with Othea were prior to the separation of Abeir & Toril since the giants were at war with the batrachi, and Annam was still around AFTER the separation of worlds, since Othea's dalliances started at the end of the giant/dragon war)
Lendys (notes: extremely lawful draconic deity of justice/balance. In many ways, he/she resembles Amaunator... and it should be noted that FOR7 Giantcraft states "According to ancient giant legends, the sun is home to a great fiery dragon god that led dragonkind in the war against the giants." Also, Realmspace's entry for the sun states the inhabitants on the sun may be fleeing a "tyrant" and that there is reports of another race trying to take control... so Lathander and Amaunator/Lendys may have been striving for control of the sun in a war on the sun itself leading up to the spellplague)
Tamara (notes: extremely good draconic deity of light and life, given there's little on her, wouldn't mind equating her to Selune)
Asgorath/Asgoroth the World Shaper (notes: dead now, possibly gave its existence to form new worlds. Said to have been around since the universe's creation)
Ulutiu
Zotha (not much known... "created" some ice moon or crystal sun that Asgorath "destroyed"/"hurled at Toril")
Ouroboros the World Serpent |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
|
|
|
Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 26 Feb 2017 : 16:07:53
|
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
My biggest problem with the whole Ao thing is that he seem to be THE God in a lot of ways, even making rules for multispheric (non-FR specific) powers. Also, what I suspected all along about FR - thats its some sort of 'fulcrum' of the multiverse - has become fact in 5e, which makes Ao WAY more powerful be default. And at the same time, if he has powers/influence beyond Realmspace, then who is his 'Boss'?
He only makes rules for the local aspects of multispheric powers, though... So he can tell Corellon where to stick it, in Realmspace, but in Greyspace, Corellon is not bound by those rules.
It's kinda like traveling to a foreign country. Yeah, in your home country of Aylandia, you may be able to do pretty much what ever you want. Beelandia will let you do most of the same things, but not all, and in Ceelandia, you'll be lucky if you're only thrown in jail for some of the stuff you can do in Beelandia. Once you get the heck out of Ceelandia, of course, you are no longer bound by their laws. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
|
|
|
Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 26 Feb 2017 : 18:20:26
|
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
Well, one thing I'm stressing in the other thread I just started is that what we're hearing about Ao is not from Ao and its not from the gods. Its from sages hearing stories and "putting together the big picture". I personally think those sages got it all wrong, for the reasons like you state.
I'm starting to think Ao didn't create Abeir. I'm starting to think something happened when Asgorath/Io "touched their breath" to that "ice moon"/"crystal sun"/"giant waiting egg in the sky". I'm starting to wonder.... did that BIRTH alternate realities.... did that BIRTH Mystryl... did that FRAGMENT THE WORLD SERPENT (and is this world serpent related in any way to Asgorath... the "sages" think Asgorath was a primordial, but was she/he?)... Hell, did this not only birth Abeir, but possibly even other crystal spheres (like Krynn and Greyhawk)... though I'm gonna go out on a limb and say that that last bit won't be favored by others.
On the one hand, it would make sense that it was all 'one event' - that there was one major 'kablooey' that shattered the First World, and gave birth to all the others... and I'm totally down with that (and its not really my theory - it was proposed in the very first issue of Dragon magazine). But because of Abeir's very different nature - and the fact that it IS in the same Crystal Sphere - makes me think its creation has to be something different than what created all those other settings/worlds (because why didn't it get its own crystal sphere)?
So Occam's Razor doesn't work so neatly here, because its apples and oranges, even if the orange looks a lot like the apple. Its a conundrum, because it appears they should have all been created at the same time (immediately following the Godwar).
So once again, we need to "use the lore to fix the lore". Toril is different. I've always known that, because everything points to it (its connected to just about everything else in the multiverse, directly). I think the Moonwells ('Wells of Power') are a big part of that (some sort of primal conduits link Toril to other planes and their energy sources). If you think of the multiverse as a computer network, Toril's not just 'a hub', its THE Hub... maybe even the router. everything goes through IT. So if Toril - and by extension Realmspace - is so different then the rest of the Spheres, it makes sense that Abeir is as well.
If Toril's some sort of router (bus might be a better analogy), then perhaps Abeir is some sort of Recycling Bin? Not that it was setup to be that way, it just wound up as one (a pasted-together world using cast-off bits of other worlds). I think Abeir is our Tarterus - its where our 'Titans' were confined. The shell on the outside where mortals live - thats just the crust that Ao built on top of the prison. It was probably not originally meant to be that way; Ao just used what was available to him.
So the Great Wheel is built around one prison -Sigil - which confines THE 'uber Ebil', and then you have Abeir, where it's minions/henchmen/allies were sent. Thats the vibe I am getting from all this. {Conjecture here}
The only problem I am have reconciling all of this is that why isn't Toril (and Abeir) part of the Great Wheel? Why is it a crystal sphere, just like any other Crystal Sphere? was that a mistake on 2e's part? To make it just one more world in a vast sea of similar worlds? Even Realmspace itself is very different and important to the greater Spelljamming universe - it has stuff no other crystal sphere does (like that giant skull, or the rock of Bral). Was 'Realmspace' the battleground for the Godwar? Is that why its different? After the First World was shattered, Toril was just too loaded with 'god energy' to be easily contained, unlike most of the other pieces/worlds?
It makes sense that if all these worlds/settings were part of a greater whole at one point (Midgard - the 'First World', which was actually just an unsundered Prime Material), then something must have happened on the piece that became Toril, OR it was already important for some reason on the First World ('the throne of God', the 'main laboratory', etc). Maybe Toril was D&D's version of 'Mount Olympus' on that First World. Who knows? |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
|
Edited by - Markustay on 26 Feb 2017 18:27:22 |
|
|
|
Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 26 Feb 2017 : 23:47:07
|
Re-reading what I wrote above this morning, I can't help imagining Toril actually being what I think it is - the center of the Universe. What if the world were truly flat - what if Toril was the Outlands? 
I'm not saying that it is - no matter how many straws I tried to grasp there is no way of making that work, aside from a major retcon. But still, its fun to think about. If we looked at a world map, The 'Endless Spire' would fall out somewhere in the Fallen Kingdom of Guge - an area depicted on the back cover of the Fonstad Atlas. I suppose if we were to use an actual map of Toril, rather than just the main continent (that also includes K-T and Zakhara), we'd have to picture the map being surrounded by a ring of land with the gate towns. Of course, if we just ignore the wheel and imagine something new, then the Gate Towns could be anywhere. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
|
|
|
|
Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 27 Feb 2017 : 00:12:42
|
Krynnspace and Greyspace also had things the others didn't... And the Rock of Bral was originally not set in Realmspace; its location was left undetermined. Steven Schend is the one who brought it into the Realms.
As I recall, Greyspace had two very unique astrological features, very different from anything in the other spheres. There is the Habitat, something inhabited by unknown creatures and unreachable through magical or physical means. You can see it, but space is warped around it, so once you get too close, you're suddenly traveling away from it. And there is also a formation of stars called The Sisters. If a ship passes between them, it will be flung elsewhere and elsewhen -- literally transported to a different point in time and space, possibly even a different sphere.
Krynnspace has mysterious black clouds that are harmless unless you try to touch them, and that wipe your memories of passage thru them. It has a group of asteroids connected by magical bridges that can't be damaged. And it has some utter ridiculousness, too, like planets being used as scrying devices by the gods and a 6-inch tall superstrong flying gnome called Little Biggnome. (There are reasons I consider that supplement to be the worst of the three setting-specific Spelljammer resources.) |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
|
|
|
sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11700 Posts |
Posted - 27 Feb 2017 : 01:35:47
|
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
Well, one thing I'm stressing in the other thread I just started is that what we're hearing about Ao is not from Ao and its not from the gods. Its from sages hearing stories and "putting together the big picture". I personally think those sages got it all wrong, for the reasons like you state.
I'm starting to think Ao didn't create Abeir. I'm starting to think something happened when Asgorath/Io "touched their breath" to that "ice moon"/"crystal sun"/"giant waiting egg in the sky". I'm starting to wonder.... did that BIRTH alternate realities.... did that BIRTH Mystryl... did that FRAGMENT THE WORLD SERPENT (and is this world serpent related in any way to Asgorath... the "sages" think Asgorath was a primordial, but was she/he?)... Hell, did this not only birth Abeir, but possibly even other crystal spheres (like Krynn and Greyhawk)... though I'm gonna go out on a limb and say that that last bit won't be favored by others.
On the one hand, it would make sense that it was all 'one event' - that there was one major 'kablooey' that shattered the First World, and gave birth to all the others... and I'm totally down with that (and its not really my theory - it was proposed in the very first issue of Dragon magazine). But because of Abeir's very different nature - and the fact that it IS in the same Crystal Sphere - makes me think its creation has to be something different than what created all those other settings/worlds (because why didn't it get its own crystal sphere)?
So Occam's Razor doesn't work so neatly here, because its apples and oranges, even if the orange looks a lot like the apple. Its a conundrum, because it appears they should have all been created at the same time (immediately following the Godwar).
So once again, we need to "use the lore to fix the lore". Toril is different. I've always known that, because everything points to it (its connected to just about everything else in the multiverse, directly). I think the Moonwells ('Wells of Power') are a big part of that (some sort of primal conduits link Toril to other planes and their energy sources). If you think of the multiverse as a computer network, Toril's not just 'a hub', its THE Hub... maybe even the router. everything goes through IT. So if Toril - and by extension Realmspace - is so different then the rest of the Spheres, it makes sense that Abeir is as well.
If Toril's some sort of router (bus might be a better analogy), then perhaps Abeir is some sort of Recycling Bin? Not that it was setup to be that way, it just wound up as one (a pasted-together world using cast-off bits of other worlds). I think Abeir is our Tarterus - its where our 'Titans' were confined. The shell on the outside where mortals live - thats just the crust that Ao built on top of the prison. It was probably not originally meant to be that way; Ao just used what was available to him.
So the Great Wheel is built around one prison -Sigil - which confines THE 'uber Ebil', and then you have Abeir, where it's minions/henchmen/allies were sent. Thats the vibe I am getting from all this. {Conjecture here}
The only problem I am have reconciling all of this is that why isn't Toril (and Abeir) part of the Great Wheel? Why is it a crystal sphere, just like any other Crystal Sphere? was that a mistake on 2e's part? To make it just one more world in a vast sea of similar worlds? Even Realmspace itself is very different and important to the greater Spelljamming universe - it has stuff no other crystal sphere does (like that giant skull, or the rock of Bral). Was 'Realmspace' the battleground for the Godwar? Is that why its different? After the First World was shattered, Toril was just too loaded with 'god energy' to be easily contained, unlike most of the other pieces/worlds?
It makes sense that if all these worlds/settings were part of a greater whole at one point (Midgard - the 'First World', which was actually just an unsundered Prime Material), then something must have happened on the piece that became Toril, OR it was already important for some reason on the First World ('the throne of God', the 'main laboratory', etc). Maybe Toril was D&D's version of 'Mount Olympus' on that First World. Who knows?
Just to play devil's advocate here (I too am not all that thrilled with the idea that I espoused), but perhaps the reason that Abeir and Greyhawk and Dragonlance are different is simply the extent to which their "world" got completed in the balance of things. In a mass explosion of sorts, you can have a lot of different "effects" happen. Perhaps some worlds were created that are just not "complete", and thus those worlds were just made "on a different wavelength" or out of phase. Along these lines, we might even find out that there's a few other worlds besides just Abeir and Toril..... In fact, the shadowfell and feywild have portions which mirror Toril (granted this is supposedly the same for all crystal spheres).... and even Raveloft has some form of realm copying going on.
Again, not really big on the idea, but its worth perusing. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
|
|
|
sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11700 Posts |
Posted - 05 Mar 2017 : 18:24:38
|
weird, I keep running across different Ao's. I was just reading on the concept of "the world turtle"... i.e. the concept that many have of a turtle that the world rests upon
Ao (Chinese: #40140;, Áo) is a large marine turtle in Chinese mythology. He was thought to have lived in the South China Sea during the time of the formation of the world. When the goddess Nüwa, creator of mankind, was repairing the sky after a disaster, she chopped off Ao’s four legs and used them as supports.
Another myth claims that Ao still lives and resides in the Bohai Sea, where he carries the three islands of the Eight Immortals (Penglai, Fangzhang, and Yingzhou) upon his back.[1]
He is thought to have been an influence on the later half-dragon, half-turtle figure of Bixi in imperial Chinese sculpture. Bixi was considered a son of the Dragon King who was able to carry enormous weights upon his back; figures of the dragon-turtle bearing memorial stelae are common monuments throughout East Asia.
|
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
|
|
|
Topic |
|
|
|
Ao is actually a Hawaiian god's name
