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Zeromaru X
Great Reader
Colombia
2443 Posts |
 Posted - 18 Feb 2017 : 23:42:50
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Here I come with a dragon related question to anyone who can answer. (Hope my english didn't screw anything here)
Reading Faiths & Pantheons (I'm buying a few 3e books to expand my poor Realmslore, that is sadly limited to 4e and SCAG) this book list Null and Task as greater deities, and I can only wonder, why?
If I'm not wrong, the power of the gods is equivalent to the number and fervor of their worshipers, right? And these two guys are only worshiped by a few dragons that, for most of Faerunian history, shunned their own gods (according to Dragons of Faerun, dragons lost their interest in gods since the Time of Dragons and only began to believe again in their own gods after the last Dracorage).
Then, I saw Bahamut and Tiamat in 3e, and they are listed as lesser deities...
According to dragons of Faerun, their faithful were the only dragons that didn't forsaken their own gods, and had been battling the Dragonfall War since the Time of Dragons. We have fervor here. And not only that, they have been worshiped by members of other races, not only dragons. Tiamat and Bahamut (Marduk) were worshiped in Unther, and Tiamat faith there never really faded away, even after the Orcgate Wars. She was later resurrected by their faithful as a demigoddess when Gilgeam went nuts, and later a full-fledged goddess in the Time of Troubles.
Later, the cult of Bahamut is resurrected in Damara, thanks to the efforts of Gareth Dragonsbane and co., and he gained enough followers to gave him the... divine energy? (faith energy?) to became a full fledged god again (without taking into account Untherites that still believed in dead Marduk as part of their old faith, according to Old Empires). And after the Spellplague, those two became widely known across Faerun and others parts of the world (like Laerakond). We have a lot of worshipers here (not only their everyday dragon worshipers, but worshipers of many other races as well).
Maybe they have not the same number of worshipers than the more common human gods, but still have more worshipers than the rest of the draconic pantheon (with the possible exception of Asgorath/Io, who is worshiped by all dragonkind). Heck, maybe Bahamut and Tiamat are the only gods of the draconic pantheon that may have gained a foothold in Abeir (alongside other Faerunian gods) if Laerakond was returned to that world during the Sundering 2.0.
My question then is why they are still treated as lesser deities, even within the draconic pantheon? Shouldn't they be at mere least intermediate deities, or something like that? They're the most known dragon gods (even among players).
Is this an oversight of WotC or something? Or are they actually downplaying their importance because the two siblings are from Greyhawk (or Dragonlance), and they wanted to give more relevance to "local deities"?
Or should I better ask Ed or Eric L. Boyd (as he wrote part of Dragon of Faerun—fantastic book, anyways) about this?
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Instead of seeking change, you prefer a void, merciless abyss of a world... |
Edited by - Zeromaru X on 18 Feb 2017 23:49:29
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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore
Australia
6648 Posts |
Posted - 19 Feb 2017 : 00:38:58
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Umm ... this isn't meant to sound harsh but why would this anomaly in the sources cause you so much angst? For YOUR game/campaign Tiamat and Bahamut can be whatever you want them to be. For that matter, what does it matter whether they are greater/lesser/demi-gods? I see so many, many, many posts about gods on these forums - always seeking to establish power levels, origins, "how" this or that could have happened in relation to a deity, etc etc etc ad infinitum - and the question that always strikes me is: why are people obsessed with these types of questions? I can't help but feel it's an extension of humanity's own predilection for seeking to explain the unexplainable. It can't have anything to do with someone's actual game, can it? It's not like a campaign hinges on whether Tiamat is a greater or lesser deity. They are not monsters - you shouldn't be able to kill them - but then again I've come across many gaming styles and gaming preferences over the years, so anything is possible. It's YOUR Realms. Tiamat and Bahamut can be anything you want them to be - especially when there is an apparent conflict in the sources. There is no right answer and Eric Boyd doesn't have it for you either, I can assure you. Time for you to decide what you want for your game and campaign. Go for it - it's liberating.
-- George Krashos |
"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus |
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Zeromaru X
Great Reader
Colombia
2443 Posts |
Posted - 19 Feb 2017 : 00:55:05
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Is not angst (maybe I chose the bad combination of words, but blame that on my poor english —is self-learned, reading books in the language). Is just that I don't see logic on it. And maybe that is the answer to your question. As fans, we tend to be... mmm, hot-blooded (is this the right word?) about the things we like. I do not see that as a bad thing, but I can understand people that became uncomfortable with this. I just wanted to know if there was a answer for this.
But yeah, I'm going to follow your advice in any case. Thanks for your answer. |
Instead of seeking change, you prefer a void, merciless abyss of a world... |
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bloodtide_the_red
Learned Scribe
USA
298 Posts |
Posted - 19 Feb 2017 : 01:06:38
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So for most of Realms history the size and number of a deities worshipers did not matter much....though the ''true'' nature of gods has always been vague.
After the Time of Troubles Ao did make the rule of the number of faithful equals divine power and rank.....but again the mere mortals don't know the details. And, for all we know it was only for the human gods.
We don't know how much an individual counts for power. A first level warrior is one point for Tempus? Maybe? Then how much is a single adult dragon? 1,000?
And you can consider the whole Realmsspace system, so there are dragons on other planets like Coliar.
And you can consider that the dragon gods are worshiped across the Prime on trillions of worlds. So even one or two dragons a world...times a trillion...is a trillion faith points at it's most basic.
Of course, officially, few people and especially game designers/writers/such, care about Realmslore. And a great many are just clueless and don't know the lore...but more simply don't care. And this has only gotten worse with every edition that just slaps ''Forgotten Realms'' on whatever they just make up.
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Zeromaru X
Great Reader
Colombia
2443 Posts |
Posted - 19 Feb 2017 : 01:20:06
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| That is interesting. This means that gods from others pantheons weren't affected by the "faith" stuff? Or just inhuman/monsters gods (like Moradin and Corellon) aren't affected by the number of their followers? |
Instead of seeking change, you prefer a void, merciless abyss of a world... |
Edited by - Zeromaru X on 19 Feb 2017 01:21:00 |
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bloodtide_the_red
Learned Scribe
USA
298 Posts |
Posted - 19 Feb 2017 : 02:00:31
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Well, over all if your a God in the Realms you have to obey Ao's rules....but we don't know what the rules are, other then vague concepts. So it's possible there are different sets of rules.
But each race is a bit diffrent. For example nearly all elves ''think'' of Corellon as their creator and think about him. So this might not be ''worship'' per say...but might count for like ''one faith point''...and as your talking about nealy every elf in the world...that makes Corellon a greater god. The same is true for Moradin. |
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AuldDragon
Senior Scribe
USA
551 Posts |
Posted - 19 Feb 2017 : 04:32:26
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If I had to guess, when the list at the end of Faiths & Pantheons was compiled, they drew from the Draconomicon deity list rather than Cult of the Dragon deity list. Draconomicon was published before the Intermediate power level was introduced.
One thing I've thought is that a single dragon counts for more "faith" than a single humanoid. While I wouldn't try to quantify the numbers in any way (and would recommend against it), it could explain why comparatively fewer worshipers can mean surprisingly powerful deities. Most dragons would venerate Null as the god of draconic death, and a great many evil dragons would venerate Task, the way most everyone on Faerun would utter a prayer to Kelemvor when someone dies, or when hoping for someone to not die.
Regarding Tiamat and Bahamut being lesser deities despite expanding their worship base, my thought is that Tiamat makes profligate use of her power, and Bahamut intentionally keeps himself at the same power level to maintain balance.
Alternately, Takhisis and Paladine were split off from Tiamat and Bahamut when Krynn was created by the High God (rather than being the same or just facsimiles), and they willingly gave up a large amount of their power in the process, and have yet to recover.
Jeff |
My 2nd Edition blog: http://blog.aulddragon.com/
My streamed AD&D Spelljamer sessions: https://www.youtube.com/user/aulddragon/playlists?flow=grid&shelf_id=18&view=50
"That sums it up in a nutshell, AuldDragon. You make a more convincing argument. But he's right and you're not." |
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moonbeast
Senior Scribe
USA
522 Posts |
Posted - 19 Feb 2017 : 04:43:52
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Ao himself is an "Overgod" and yet there is no direct clergy, temples, or even an official religion dedicated to worship of Ao.
Maybe Ao does not need worshippers…. because Ao simply is Ao? He is the alpha and the omega, he simply is. And his power never waxes nor wanes, even if not a single mortal knew that he even existed.
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Zeromaru X
Great Reader
Colombia
2443 Posts |
Posted - 19 Feb 2017 : 06:08:25
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If I'm not wrong, the overdeities have different rules than those of the normal gods. They do not need followers and that stuff.
And also, the faith stuff was imposed to the Realms deities by Ao. I'm not sure if this applies to other worlds (such as Oerth or Krynn), though I find the idea logical and exported it to my homebrew world as well. |
Instead of seeking change, you prefer a void, merciless abyss of a world... |
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KanzenAU
Senior Scribe
Australia
763 Posts |
Posted - 19 Feb 2017 : 07:55:37
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Null and Task might simply have more worshipers over the multiple Prime Material worlds, whereas Bahamut and Tiamat may be primarily active only on Toril. So, despite Bahamut and Tiamat getting more attention on Toril, they're still less powerful deities than Null and Task who have more worshipers across multiple worlds. Once you start thinking about the power levels of gods, you have to take into account the multiple planes they may be deriving power from.
As for Ao, he doesn't need direct worshipers. I'm pretty sure that a source somewhere said that anyone who devotes to much attention to Ao ends up never being heard from again. |
Regional maps for Waterdeep, Triboar, Ardeep Forest, and Cormyr on DM's Guild, plus a campaign sized map for the North |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11703 Posts |
Posted - 19 Feb 2017 : 14:48:44
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One thing though that has been established is that the power levels of the deities is locally significant. So, unless said deities brings in a trove of his worshippers from another world, it wouldn't affect their power levels in Toril.
That being said, we always seem to focus on Faerun like its the main place in the world. What if other places in the world have more dragons that revere these entities? For instance, in Kara-Tur, Lung dragons are common, and they seemingly have no relation to the metallic and chromatic dragons we're used to. Similarly, there are brown dragons in the hordelands/Old Empires and yellow dragons in Anauroch that may or may not truly have a link to Tiamat (I will note that these two breeds both have a sandy breath weapon and favor deserts, and the yellows only started appearing in the 1350's... so I suspect this is a rare tribe of brass/brown dragon crossbreeds... though others believe that the new breed was created at "The Anvil of the Gods" in Anauroch) . There are shadow dragons, deep dragons, all the various gem dragon breeds, song dragons, mist dragons, etc.. Then there are the non-true dragons which are still somewhat intelligent, such as the various types of drakes, hydras, wyverns,
For that matter, lets look at their portfolios, shall we? Task is the draconic deity of greed. So every dragon that performs a greedy act strengthens him somewhat. Even GOOD dragons are known to hoard wealth, whereas they may not actively worship Bahamut.... who is a god of justice. Day-to-Day, not seeing many dragons calling for justice, unless of course their hoard is stolen... and oh wait, that would be vengeance born of greed?
Similarly with Null, I can see those dragons that embrace vampirism, lichdom, becoming a mummy, ghost, an air dragon, or even Telthor, etc.... to pay at least some lip service to Null. Also, those dragons that are simply old and near death may pray to Null to give them a simple passing. Some may say simple prayers to Null to "not take them today".
Finally, if you look at the old 2e Draconomicon, you will notice that both Bahamut and Tiamat aren't even listed as deities. Granted, later lore trumps earlier, but perhaps these deities were more like "manifestations" that have recently ascended to godhood (and given that Bahamut had to come to Faerun as Marduk, this may be true).
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Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Zeromaru X
Great Reader
Colombia
2443 Posts |
Posted - 19 Feb 2017 : 16:24:37
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Tiamat isn't in Draconomicon as a deity, she is retconned to the Draconic pantheon in Cult of the Dragon (good book also). However, Bahamut is in the Draconomicon as a dragon god (under the alias of Xymor- well, they retconned Xymor as Bahamut in Cult of the Dragon also, but that's thing).
As for your explanation, seems logical, but Tiamat is also a deity of greed, so greedy dragons should also strengthen her.
As for Null, I can understand his power now that I've read Cult off Dragon's entry about gods. He is a dual god, god of death and undeath (according to Cult of the Dragon he is both, Falazure and Chronepsis). So, even if a few evil dragons worship his evil side (Falazure), all dragons may pay at least lip service to his non-darker aspect (Chronepsis). This makes sense, as he is like Asgorath: have worshipers even among worshipers of other dragon gods.
Task is the one who don't makes sense. |
Instead of seeking change, you prefer a void, merciless abyss of a world... |
Edited by - Zeromaru X on 19 Feb 2017 16:40:30 |
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KanzenAU
Senior Scribe
Australia
763 Posts |
Posted - 20 Feb 2017 : 00:34:17
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quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X
Tiamat isn't in Draconomicon as a deity, she is retconned to the Draconic pantheon in Cult of the Dragon (good book also). However, Bahamut is in the Draconomicon as a dragon god (under the alias of Xymor- well, they retconned Xymor as Bahamut in Cult of the Dragon also, but that's thing).
As for your explanation, seems logical, but Tiamat is also a deity of greed, so greedy dragons should also strengthen her.
As for Null, I can understand his power now that I've read Cult off Dragon's entry about gods. He is a dual god, god of death and undeath (according to Cult of the Dragon he is both, Falazure and Chronepsis). So, even if a few evil dragons worship his evil side (Falazure), all dragons may pay at least lip service to his non-darker aspect (Chronepsis). This makes sense, as he is like Asgorath: have worshipers even among worshipers of other dragon gods.
Task is the one who don't makes sense.
I'm pretty sure Task is the draconic deity of greed, and Tiamat is more the god of draconic evil. I have a feeling that when they said Tiamat's portfolio includes greed, they were talking about her aspect in Unther. This way, greedy dragons would be serving Task, not Tiamat. |
Regional maps for Waterdeep, Triboar, Ardeep Forest, and Cormyr on DM's Guild, plus a campaign sized map for the North |
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AuldDragon
Senior Scribe
USA
551 Posts |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 20 Feb 2017 : 02:05:49
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Yeah, I always thought it very strange that Tiamat & Bahamut aren't really 'draconic' gods, even though they are dragons (and despite being called THE god of their respective types in early MM works, they were left out of the Draconimicon). It seems they have WAY more involvement with humans (and other humanoids) than they do with their own kind.
So maybe one 'weirdness' helps to explain the other? Maybe dragons themselves no longer consider T&B to be part of their pantheon? That Tiamat's constant interfering in human affairs (and Bahamut also doing so, just to counter her) has 'outed' them from normal draconic worship (even if its just 'paying lip service')? I've always felt that some of the 'worship juice' (I call it Elan) also comes from being part of a pantheon itself. Thus a deity gets power from its worshipers, but it also derives quite a bit from its porfolios, and also gets some as a 'trickle down' effect from people who worship the entire pantheon in general. Now, in FR we don't see that very much (even though Ed has repeatedly stated that Faerûnians are 'pantheists'), but if we look just beyond our (normal) borders we can definitely see thats the case on other parts of Toril, and even right in the Old Empires - the entire pantheon is worshiped, and the gods are indeed getting some of their power from that.
This system actually works best for multispheric powers (like the Pharonic Pantheon), because it allows them to spend a minimal amount of time 'maintaining' each sect within a pantheon on each world, and they will still get power from ALL those worlds. So for them, its a 'quantity over quality' thing. This is how the draconic pantheon is so powerful, despite hardly being worshiped at all, anywhere. ts one of the few pantheons that not just multispheric, its Omnispheric - they are EVERYWHERE! Even if they're just getting bits and drabs of power from each Crystal Sphere (and plane), it adds up (a point someone else also made above).
So Tiamat (Tiamet/Takhisis/Leviathan/etc) isn't satisfied with that. She wants more. She wants the kind of fervor she sees human worshipers have. She'd rather just have some of those, then a bazillion dragons that barely think about her. But by focusing herself on humans for worship, she inadvertently got herself 'kicked out' of the draconic panthoen. Once most dragons stopped thinking of her as a Draconic Power, she no longer received power from the pantheon itself. She screwed herself - by being greedy she lost the great deal she already had. And unfortunately, in order to counter her at every turn, Bahamut/Marduk/Behemoth stuck himself in the same boat. Lucky for him, 'good' deities are more popular among humans.
That should explain everything - "Use the lore to explain the lore". She's not in the Draconimicon because its written from a draconic PoV. The Cult of the Dragon is written from a Human PoV, so she's in there. And she did that to herself.
As an aside, I still like to spin her and Lloth as rivals of a sort (one was a demon-queen, the other a ruler in hell), and in RW mythology, it was Tiamet who created the scorpionmen - creatures very similar to Lloth's own Driders. The fact that they are found in Maztica, and the Maztican pantheon is a perfect fit for the Draconic one (aliases) is just pure gravy. Now add-in that Maztica went back to Abeir in 4e - a place 'ruled by dragons' - and factor-in their myths about 'returning to the first world' - its PURE WIN. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 20 Feb 2017 02:50:37 |
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Zeromaru X
Great Reader
Colombia
2443 Posts |
Posted - 20 Feb 2017 : 02:09:31
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As of Cult of Dragons, Tiamat had the porfolio of Greed... I dunno, maybe she represented envy (as opposed to just greed) or something like that...
I do not have a problem with their power levels in Cult of Dragon. Those were logical at that point of the Realms' history. Tiamat and Bahamut just were "new" gods in the Realms again, their power base was low at that point, compared to other dragon gods who didn't lost their divine aspects for more than a millennium.
My point is that, by the time 3e takes place (1372, IIRC) the would have been upgraded, because their power base was greater than that of other dragon gods (as per Dragons of Faerun). But then, I know that the storylines that may have been in the plans from those books died with 4e.... |
Instead of seeking change, you prefer a void, merciless abyss of a world... |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7973 Posts |
Posted - 20 Feb 2017 : 02:25:34
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| Wikipedia has good info about Bahamut and Tiamat. When first introduced in 1E they didn't even have personal names. Later they were "promoted" to status equivalents of arch-angels and arch-devils. Dragonlance started them on the path towards the divine statures they enjoyed in later editions. |
[/Ayrik] |
Edited by - Ayrik on 20 Feb 2017 02:26:25 |
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Zeromaru X
Great Reader
Colombia
2443 Posts |
Posted - 20 Feb 2017 : 02:42:23
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Dragons of Faerun solves that stuff. Or, you can say that retcons it (new lore replaces the old one... seems that happened a lot even before 4e).
During the Battle of the Gods in the Orcgate Wars, Gilgeam was distracted battling Ilneval, and Tiamat tried to kill him from behind (because she hated all the Untheric gods... or maybe just predicted that the Gilgeam will become an a***le some years later and hated him before that, because she was hipster (?)). Marduk (Bahamut) intervened, killing Tiamat but dying as well in the process (possibly, by saving Gilgeam's worthless hide using his own body as a shield... I can picture Bahamut doing that even to save someone who don't deserved it, as Gilgeam). Interesting enough, someone adjudicated Marduk's death to the orc deities (I can picture Gilgeam doing this, unable to cope with the shame that someone saved his butt... by this point you may have noted that I really dislike Gilgeam... Blame Brimestone Angels for that, lol).
With their Untheric aspects destroyed, both gods lost so much power that Bahamut became a Celestial Paragon and Tiamat an Archfiend, and both were unable to enter the mortal realm again. Bahamut went to Celestia to do go stuff, and Tiamat went to the Nine Hells and ended up as Asmodeus's cancerberus...
Bahamut was in a worst position that his sister, because at least Tiamat had loyal Untherans to her (enough to revive her as a demigoddess a few centuries later), while he has lost not only his Marduk aspect (and his church was completely eradicated as well), but also had lost his Xymor aspect before (during the Time of Dragons, when dragons became atheistic, as per Draconomicon 2e). If not for Dragonsbane timely holy quest, Bahamyut may have been another stuff forgotten in the Realms (no pun intended). |
Instead of seeking change, you prefer a void, merciless abyss of a world... |
Edited by - Zeromaru X on 20 Feb 2017 02:43:36 |
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AuldDragon
Senior Scribe
USA
551 Posts |
Posted - 20 Feb 2017 : 04:31:55
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During 1e, there was a disagreement about whether Bahamut and Tiamat were deities (a 1984 article in Dragon was written about them as the draconic gods, and there were some letters in later issues strongly opposed to that position), even before the publication of Dragonlance. The Draconomicon was written from the point of view that they weren't deities, just powerful and unique mortals, while Monster Mythology was written from the opposed position. Cult of the Dragon reconciled the two for the Forgotten Realms.
I would treat Tiamat's Greed portfolio from Powers & Pantheons as applying to her human worshipers only (not that she'd love to slay Task and take it wholly from him).
Jeff |
My 2nd Edition blog: http://blog.aulddragon.com/
My streamed AD&D Spelljamer sessions: https://www.youtube.com/user/aulddragon/playlists?flow=grid&shelf_id=18&view=50
"That sums it up in a nutshell, AuldDragon. You make a more convincing argument. But he's right and you're not." |
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LordofBones
Master of Realmslore
1486 Posts |
Posted - 20 Feb 2017 : 05:19:26
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Tiamat is only a big deal in the Realms. Outside of that, she has pretty powerful enemies, including Marduk and the Babylonian pantheon, and her own siblings Falazure and Bahamut. Her current antics, including attempted usurpation of undeath, have no doubt lead to her siblings, Falazure and Task in particular, working to counter her.
I'd expect Falazure to be closer to the next strata of divinity than Mama T, honestly. Religious dragons are pretty rare, and Falazure's dominion over undeath is more general and alluring than Tiamat's rule over evil dragons, who generally just appease her to get her off their backs.
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11703 Posts |
Posted - 20 Feb 2017 : 15:48:55
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Yeah, I always thought it very strange that Tiamat & Bahamut aren't really 'draconic' gods, even though they are dragons (and despite being called THE god of their respective types in early MM works, they were left out of the Draconimicon). It seems they have WAY more involvement with humans (and other humanoids) than they do with their own kind.
So maybe one 'weirdness' helps to explain the other? Maybe dragons themselves no longer consider T&B to be part of their pantheon? That Tiamat's constant interfering in human affairs (and Bahamut also doing so, just to counter her) has 'outed' them from normal draconic worship (even if its just 'paying lip service')? I've always felt that some of the 'worship juice' (I call it Elan) also comes from being part of a pantheon itself. Thus a deity gets power from its worshipers, but it also derives quite a bit from its porfolios, and also gets some as a 'trickle down' effect from people who worship the entire pantheon in general. Now, in FR we don't see that very much (even though Ed has repeatedly stated that Faerûnians are 'pantheists'), but if we look just beyond our (normal) borders we can definitely see thats the case on other parts of Toril, and even right in the Old Empires - the entire pantheon is worshiped, and the gods are indeed getting some of their power from that.
This system actually works best for multispheric powers (like the Pharonic Pantheon), because it allows them to spend a minimal amount of time 'maintaining' each sect within a pantheon on each world, and they will still get power from ALL those worlds. So for them, its a 'quantity over quality' thing. This is how the draconic pantheon is so powerful, despite hardly being worshiped at all, anywhere. ts one of the few pantheons that not just multispheric, its Omnispheric - they are EVERYWHERE! Even if they're just getting bits and drabs of power from each Crystal Sphere (and plane), it adds up (a point someone else also made above).
So Tiamat (Tiamet/Takhisis/Leviathan/etc) isn't satisfied with that. She wants more. She wants the kind of fervor she sees human worshipers have. She'd rather just have some of those, then a bazillion dragons that barely think about her. But by focusing herself on humans for worship, she inadvertently got herself 'kicked out' of the draconic panthoen. Once most dragons stopped thinking of her as a Draconic Power, she no longer received power from the pantheon itself. She screwed herself - by being greedy she lost the great deal she already had. And unfortunately, in order to counter her at every turn, Bahamut/Marduk/Behemoth stuck himself in the same boat. Lucky for him, 'good' deities are more popular among humans.
That should explain everything - "Use the lore to explain the lore". She's not in the Draconimicon because its written from a draconic PoV. The Cult of the Dragon is written from a Human PoV, so she's in there. And she did that to herself.
As an aside, I still like to spin her and Lloth as rivals of a sort (one was a demon-queen, the other a ruler in hell), and in RW mythology, it was Tiamet who created the scorpionmen - creatures very similar to Lloth's own Driders. The fact that they are found in Maztica, and the Maztican pantheon is a perfect fit for the Draconic one (aliases) is just pure gravy. Now add-in that Maztica went back to Abeir in 4e - a place 'ruled by dragons' - and factor-in their myths about 'returning to the first world' - its PURE WIN.
I do as well like the spin of Tiamat and Lolth in some kind of hate spiral for one another. The fact also that Tiamat has some ties to the Nine Hells and Lolth has some ties to the Abyss can further fuel this. Tiamat creating the manscorpions isn't something I've read, but sounds damn good to me.
The Tiamat that I read of when I google her outside of D&D was actually some kind of goddess of the Sea who birthed the Babylonian gods, and essentially one of her grandchildren (Marduk) kills her. Prior to her husband being murdered, she even sounds like a good deity. So, its almost like she was some kind of Overgod power who was killed, then reformed herself as a draconic power. Given that she was a goddess of the "Primordial Chaos" ... but one that seems to have been taking the chaos and giving it order... could also fit with the hatred between her and Lolth (a goddess who personifies chaos).
*********below from Wiki of Tiamat
In Mesopotamian religion (Sumerian, Assyrian, Akkadian and Babylonian), Tiamat is a primordial goddess of the ocean, mating with Abzû (the god of fresh water) to produce younger gods. She is the symbol of the chaos of primordial creation. Depicted as a woman,[1] she represents the beauty of the feminine, depicted as the glistening one.[2] It is suggested that there are two parts to the Tiamat mythos, the first in which Tiamat is a creator goddess, through a "Sacred marriage" between salt and fresh water, peacefully creating the cosmos through successive generations. In the second "Chaoskampf" Tiamat is considered the monstrous embodiment of primordial chaos.[3] Some sources identify her with images of a sea serpent or dragon.[4]
In the Enûma Elish, the Babylonian epic of creation, she gives birth to the first generation of deities; her husband, Apsu, correctly assuming they are planning to kill him and usurp his throne, later makes war upon them and is killed. Enraged, she, too, wars upon her husband's murderers, taking on the form of a massive sea dragon, she is then slain by Enki's son, the storm-god Marduk, but not before she had brought forth the monsters of the Mesopotamian pantheon, including the first dragons, whose bodies she filled with "poison instead of blood". Marduk then forms heavens and the earth from her divided body. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 20 Feb 2017 : 18:27:50
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quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
I do as well like the spin of Tiamat and Lolth in some kind of hate spiral for one another. The fact also that Tiamat has some ties to the Nine Hells and Lolth has some ties to the Abyss can further fuel this. Tiamat creating the manscorpions isn't something I've read, but sounds damn good to me.
You gots to look-up 'Scorpion man' in Wikipedia. Thats not where I first read about it, but its in there.
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
The Tiamat that I read of when I google her outside of D&D was actually some kind of goddess of the Sea who birthed the Babylonian gods, and essentially one of her grandchildren (Marduk) kills her. Prior to her husband being murdered, she even sounds like a good deity. So, its almost like she was some kind of Overgod power who was killed, then reformed herself as a draconic power. Given that she was a goddess of the "Primordial Chaos" ... but one that seems to have been taking the chaos and giving it order... could also fit with the hatred between her and Lolth (a goddess who personifies chaos).
That makes Tiamat sound like 'Mother Hydra' from the Cthulhu mythos, and Paizo/Golarion/PF's Lamashtu ('Mother of Monsters') is based off of Mother Hydra (IMO). The original 'gods' were primordials/Celestial Titans, and WERE considered 'monsters' by mortals, so we can make all that work.
Dagon is supposedly her lover in the Cthulhu mythos, and he is some sort of 'Elder Evil', and his origins RW are in the same region (semitic, with connections to both the Sumerian and Babylonian pantheons). Now sure who Dagon wouldbe in D&D - sure as heck not Marduk/Bahamut. And we don't have Apsu (RW)... or do we? Maybe a fragment of Tharizdun? (so connected to the 'Dark God' and maybe the 'Elder Elemental God' in Monster Mythology, and also Ghaunadaur and Shothragot.
Something interesting I just came across in Monster Mythology - The Dark God, The Elder Elemental god, and Juiblex are considered a triumverate of 'lost gods'. Hmmmmm... another, earlier 'dark three'? And they are considered 'lost gods', whcih sounds an awful lot like the Seven Lost Gods. Could all three have possibly been aspects of Tharizdun (who is NOT Cthulhu - if anything, Cthulhu would be a High Priest (Chosen?) of that primal (pre-universe) creature (so would that make him also Hastur?!  )
And why is it that the closer I get to dementia, the more I think about Far Realms stuff?  |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 20 Feb 2017 18:33:02 |
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Zeromaru X
Great Reader
Colombia
2443 Posts |
Posted - 20 Feb 2017 : 18:32:41
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Dagon would be Dagon, the demon lord/Obyrith that manipulates Demogorgon in 4e. I though he was something not new to D&D in 4e...
My two cents: In the Devil You Know, Enlil reveals that Tiamat was created to counter all order the Untheric pantheon represented. Something like, all the Untheric gods represented order, and then Tiamat compensated the cosmic balance with being chaos. For what Enlil says, this was something like an error on the part of the Untheric gods, because infusing all chaos of the pantheon in just one god made her too much powerful (it took a god from another pantheon (Bahamut) to kill her, for instance). This is also used to explain why Gilgeam became evil (to compensate the cosmic imbalance of just having one evil god in the pantheon and that stuff).
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Instead of seeking change, you prefer a void, merciless abyss of a world... |
Edited by - Zeromaru X on 20 Feb 2017 18:34:10 |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 20 Feb 2017 : 18:59:16
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To 'step outside the box' that is RW mythology for a moment, I think the entire concept of 'pantheons' is artificial. As I stated in previous posts, having a pantheon is just a convenient way to create an 'umbrella religion' wherein all the gods in the group (even the evil ones) can gain a little power from people believing in that pantheon. Its a sort of mass-marketing concept for deities. They become a 'brand' and sell themselves that way, gaining tons more power through shear quantity (as opposed to 'quality' of their faithful). You won't really get 'zealots' that way, but you do get a nice, steady supply of power (Elan).
Most of the truly ancient pantheons - like the Pharonic one - are probably just alliances that date back to the God War. Back then, ALL deities were related, hence the concept of 'family'. In time, these 'groupings' became our first pantheons.
Since then, many more pantheons have formed, some far less formal (like the Faerûnian one). And some gods can be part of multiple pantheons, under aliases, and even have differing portfolios in those other pantheons. Think of it s a human who joins several clubs - you can hold different 'positions' within those clubs. Just because you might be the leader in one doesn't give you any authority in another.
And to apply all of this to D&D and FR specifically - I think this whole 'regional'/pantheon thing isn't the 'default' of the universe. I think its just Ao trying to keep some semblance of order. I think maybe that is why he changed the rules post-ToT; the gods were getting enough power from being in the pantheon itself (and people using stuff in their portfolios) that many of them had become lazy, and weren't really bothering fulfilling their deific duties (to their faithful, and to Ao). So he made it mandatory that they had to interact with their followers more directly, or loose their 'free ride'. Basically, he nuked the whole 'pantheon' concept and now they are all 'loners'. This would be akin to breaking up 'Unions' here on Earth.
We see some of this hinted at in the Planescape material, where ALL the gods live, and are present, and all interact with one another (albeit less frequently with deities outside their pantheons/'Private Clubs'). The 'structure' of the multiverse is actually artificial - its natural state is Chaos (primoridal soup - the Ginnungagap of Norse mythos). That means all these 'alliances' are also artificial - the truth is, any god can work with, or appear to, anyone they like, anywhere. All the planer 'rules' are just that... rules. Rules don't have to be followed. They can be broken, but then you get other powerful beings angry and there could be retribution. So thats whats keeping the whole Great Wheel chugging along - is a great, cosmic 'stalemate'. Like the most massive 'Cold war' in existence, between multiple factions, and no one can move in force against any other, without weakening themselves on other 'borders' (think of it as a game of Risk).
So basically, the cosmology is all a lie. There is no cosmology - its just 'a story agreed upon' (like everything else). The only ones who rail against it (a system which seems to keep them ALL in power) are the gods of chaos, because by their very nature they can't stand the rules, even if those rules are keeping them in power (and in check).
And thus we have Tiamet, a 'frustrated tyrant' who wants to be more than the system will allow. Every time she tries to 'buck the system', she gets punished for it - this is why she has far less power than she should have. Had she just 'stayed in line' she could be one of the most powerful beings in the multiverse. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 20 Feb 2017 19:06:39 |
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LordofBones
Master of Realmslore
1486 Posts |
Posted - 21 Feb 2017 : 02:11:56
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| Monster Mythology established that Mama T is a daughter of IO |
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Zeromaru X
Great Reader
Colombia
2443 Posts |
Posted - 21 Feb 2017 : 02:37:40
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| Yeah, sister of Bahamut. There is an excellent myth of their infancy in Races of the Dragon. Dunno why she ended in the Untheric pantheon in FR (we know Bahamut/Marduk must have become part this "private" club because he always opposes Tiamat). |
Instead of seeking change, you prefer a void, merciless abyss of a world... |
Edited by - Zeromaru X on 21 Feb 2017 02:38:04 |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 21 Feb 2017 : 04:15:31
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quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X
Dagon would be Dagon, the demon lord/Obyrith that manipulates Demogorgon in 4e. I though he was something not new to D&D in 4e...
I've never heard of Dagon in D&D before (which doesn't mean he wasn't - I could have easily missed it).
That still works - him being a 'lover' of Tiamat. He's not a demon, and she's not really a devil (she just lived with them).
I just recalled that I had some theory regarding Druaga - he appears in the 1e DD tome in the Babylonian mythos (so, should be in the same general grouping as Tiamat). He is called "ruler of the devil world", but he looks much more like a demon. I forget what my theory was (I'll have to search for it), but I wonder why such an interesting character got left-out of the Old Empires pantheons. I also don't know where he came from, since he doesn't appear in any RW myths (so did TSR just make him up?) Could it just have been their version of Dagon? Dagon had the titles "lord of the gods" and "lord of the land" - could 'lord of the devil world' just be a mortal translation of the titles of he had? He looks like a demon, but ruled devils, so maybe a Dæmon (Obyrith) isn't so far fetched.
EDIT:
Okay, here's a juicy tidbit - Dagon is sometimes considered one of the judges of the dead, alongside Nergal and Misharu. Don't know who Misharu is, but Nergal is in D&D, and I've always felt there should be some connection between him and Jergal. Also, Dagon is supposedly the underworld prison warder of the seven children of the god Emmesharra (Enmesarra). Enmesarra is associated with Nergal, and it would make sense if his children were also 'divine'. The children aren't named - could they be the Seven Lost Gods of FR? Dagon blew his watch as 'warden' (maybe when he gave his gig up to Jergal?), and perhaps that is why Jergal was in on the whole scheme to eradicate those seven gods?
So many cool ways to weave all this together.
Dagon is also associated with the Greek Cronus, sometimes as a brother. I may have to put Dagon on my short list of proto-gods (Sidereals), the tier above 'Overgod'. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 21 Feb 2017 04:33:05 |
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LordofBones
Master of Realmslore
1486 Posts |
Posted - 21 Feb 2017 : 10:28:01
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There are two Dagons, one is the obyrith lord of water and the other is a baatezu duke who annoyed the consorts of the Nine by selling their true names. The Dark Lord banished him to Avernus and warped his name into Dagon as punishment. It's also rather obvious that 'Dagon' is a homage to Lovecraft. He's an archfiend in D&D, and TSR didn't make him into an obscure gatekeeper of the underworld because he didn't even exist as anything other than a name at that point. Charon the Lord of the Marraenoloths is the only one explicitly called out as serving his mythological function.
Druaga is the Babylonian deity who serves as the middleman between baatezu summonings and his pantheon. He lives in Avernus, and so far the Lords of the Nine tolerate him. In practice, he's just another god in Baator, albeit with a rather grandiose title considering that he's just a lesser power.
There are also multiple Nergals. One is a baatezu duke, the other is the Babylonian god who dwells in Nergaltos in Oinos, the husband of Erishkigal and murderer of Enki.
Finally, Tiamat is a daughter of Io. It's entirely possible that she was much more powerful back then, before the mortal pantheons began popping up, and with her dragon consort Apsu begat much of the Babylonian mythos' monsters. Then Marduk became a greater god and kicked her ass. |
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LordofBones
Master of Realmslore
1486 Posts |
Posted - 21 Feb 2017 : 10:35:02
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quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X
Yeah, sister of Bahamut. There is an excellent myth of their infancy in Races of the Dragon. Dunno why she ended in the Untheric pantheon in FR (we know Bahamut/Marduk must have become part this "private" club because he always opposes Tiamat).
And also sister of Falazure. The Night Dragon ends up forgotten quite often, but MM specifically names him as Tiamat's and Bahamut's brother, lacking Tiamat's recklessness and being far more insidious than her.
Mama T probably always had a conflict with the Babylonian pantheon when that bunch rose to prominence, possibly displacing her worship, but mortal worshipers treated her as the pantheon's Big Bad, pretty much shoehorning her worship/appeasement alongside the rest. She came along for the ride when the Babylonians began to be worshipped in the Realms. When the Untheric pantheon died/left, Marduk allowed Bahamut use of his name in the REalms to keep Tiamat in check, thus boosting Bahamut to Lesser Power status in the Realms, annoying Tiamat in the process.
Meanwhile, the Night Dragon sits in the shadows and laughs as his siblings tear the other to pieces, while he works to subsume Chronepsis's part of their combined Null persona. While Tiamat and Bahamut war, Falazure's shadow grows daily. |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11703 Posts |
Posted - 21 Feb 2017 : 14:44:43
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quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X
Yeah, sister of Bahamut. There is an excellent myth of their infancy in Races of the Dragon. Dunno why she ended in the Untheric pantheon in FR (we know Bahamut/Marduk must have become part this "private" club because he always opposes Tiamat).
Because that's where the original Tiamat from real world mythology came from. Though it wasn't known as the "Untheric" Pantheon, it was the Sumerian/Babylonian/Akkadian gods... which even the original 1e Deities and Demigods noted was so convoluted that while they separated them as Sumerian and Babylonian Pantheons, that that was only done to give structure. This is why (I believe) the original author of Old Empires did a mixture of the Sumerian and Babylonian Pantheons as one. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 21 Feb 2017 : 19:58:09
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I think Timat - along with most of the draconic pantheon - was 'banished' from the Realms long ago. Perhaps the Elves did to the dragons what the Imaskari did to the Mulan - denied them their gods...
Huh - just had a random thought...
WHAT IF its all related to the King-Killer Star? What if the 'Dracorage' had the side-effect of depowering the draconic pantheon (because, ya' know, bat-sh*t crazy dragons aren't even thinking about their gods). Maybe all they had left was some aspects in Maztica, and maybe Abeir (I'm thinking a draconc 'god' would be more primal - something like a primordial - than like a human{oid} deity). Thus, some powers - lke Timat - found she had to shift to non-dragon worshipers to keep their presence in the Realms. It may have just started out with some kobolds, but some of them may have gotten cults going among other races. Goblinoids would be a natural fit, as would some lesser giants, and gnolls. But a god that got a cult going amongst humans - that would be quite a feat. I think maybe thats what Tiamat was intending.
So they all started out uber-powerful (everywhere), but then a series of events (like the dracorage in FR) depowered most of them, and this is why they've had to spread themselves to other races, and now some of them are 'making a come-back', as it were.
EDIT:
And it just occurred to me... the elves DID have some sort of ancient, pre-Sundering grudge against dragons - it says so in the GHotR! It makes perfect sense that they somehow denied the draconic powers access to their followers somehow. {End Edit}
And what if Zehir is really just an aspect of Zotha? Making his own 'come back' into the Realms post-Spellplague?  |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 21 Feb 2017 20:03:46 |
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Topic |
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Of the dragon pantheon and inconsistencies
