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 how to be a terrorist in the realm.
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roninshadow
Acolyte

Australia
4 Posts

Posted - 11 Feb 2017 :  14:30:38  Show Profile Send roninshadow a Private Message  Reply with Quote  Delete Topic
hi all new to the forum.
i am playing a game where I am evil ruler, just learn that that some bordering nations are planning to attack.
one of the nations is run by clerics and wizards so i thought about spreading a disease. I have thought about using Pestilence in high populated areas.
i do have a few Questions:
if a diseased person falls into a well would the water be contaminated?
can diseases be spread on to food?
with a spell like this how long would it take to spread with carefully targetted areas?

Thanks

Edited by - roninshadow on 11 Feb 2017 15:43:42

Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
30083 Posts

Posted - 11 Feb 2017 :  15:53:52  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
First of all, I'd like to welcome all the members of various national security agencies, now checking out our forum.

quote:
if a diseased person falls into a well would the water be contaminated?


It depends largely on how long they're in there. A sick person in water doesn't do much. If they are in there long enough to decompose, that's going to contaminate the water right there -- no disease needed.

quote:
can diseases be spread on to food?


I'm not aware of any, but I'm also not in that particular field. I'd say that it may be doable with a specifically crafted spell, but it'd have to be high-level and cast frequently to be able to infect a lot of food long enough for it to be eaten by a lot of people.

quote:
with a spell like this how long would it take to spread with carefully targetted areas?


There are way, way too many factors to make a guess, here, without a lot more info. It depends on how it's disseminated, where it's disseminated, and how contagious it is.

I'd suggest some heavy research on contagious diseases and their spread, if you're going this route.

Also, keep in mind -- infectious diseases don't pick and choose who they infect. No matter how careful you are, there's still a chance the disease can spread beyond its original impact area, and could wind up affecting your own populace.

And if the nation you plan on targeting is run by clerics, that suggests there are going to be a lot of clerics there -- and clerics have access to cure disease to deal with the infection, and create food and water to prevent that particular attack vector.

Using disease as a weapon is not something I'd recommend.

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Kentinal
Great Reader

4280 Posts

Posted - 11 Feb 2017 :  16:10:55  Show Profile Send Kentinal a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Well not actually terrorist tactics as far as that goes. You are asking about biological warfare instead.

As far as well water, there is a reason most realms people drink beer (purification by process to a great degree). Most water supplies are not pure to begin with. A body in a well pulled out soon would have limited to no effect. Even longer it strikes me as not a major impact. There would be many wells that any community would have. It is not like a municipality of real world having a well that pumps out water for 1000 or more people. Also there is that low level spell [i]purify water[/] that would be widely available.

Unless your nation is powerful enough to out magic the other nations it would be stall mate or even possible loss because if the others can out magic you, some of their magic would be used to strike back at your nation.

"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon
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sleyvas
Great Reader

USA
5643 Posts

Posted - 11 Feb 2017 :  16:49:04  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I'd agree with Wooly, if your goal is target a far off enemy, disease can be a good weapon. A neighbor? Hell no.

If you're looking for terrorist actions, some of that's going to vary based on edition of the game you are running. For instance, in our world, suicide bombers are a thing. You can do the same thing in 2nd edition with "imbue undead with spell ability" and zombie/skeleton mice hordes that you send into an area all imbued with like fireball or similar and decimate it. That got a little more controlled in 3rd edition because that spell was gone, but there was the feat of "destruction retribution" in Libris Mortis... but that means spending that feat (so you would get a 10 ft doing 1d6 negative energy dmg for each rat, and you have to initiate some means to make them blow up... which you can order them to kill each other when they reach their goal). Throwing invisibility into this mix as well makes this even more dangerous.

You could do similar things with like imbued gems as well in 3rd edition, but that got more expensive. If you have craft contingent spell feat as well, you aren't limited to undead like you are with the destruction retribution feat AND your effects can be much more effective or tailored, BUT it gets WAY more expensive. For instance, the contingent effect could happen whenever the "suicide bomber" loses their invisibility and release a fireball, but that's a 1500 gp fireball for each. Comparatively, you could also have 15 rats that release sleep for the same cost, which might be good enough to decimate the defenders on a castle wall. Tattoo magic is cheaper, but a little harder to implement. Depending on how your DM handles low cost magic item creation this could also be time intensive (personally, I opt for the ruling that making a 100 gp "item" doesn't take an entire day and can be done in an hour).

In 5th edition, this is heavily curtailed by lack of rulesets so far for placing triggered effects on other people. You can find some rulesets on DMs Guild that can give ideas, but be careful what you introduce in your game. The throwaway nature of familiars makes them a medium for transferring touch attacks, what few there are.

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas

Edited by - sleyvas on 11 Feb 2017 17:01:14
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roninshadow
Acolyte

Australia
4 Posts

Posted - 11 Feb 2017 :  16:49:07  Show Profile Send roninshadow a Private Message  Reply with Quote
cheers for the reply,

I should give you full details and plans.
I have couple of months of planning, I been looking at the spell Pestilence to spread the disease. I looking to keep the clerics busy trying to get rid of the disease as I attack on an other front.
so if couple of bodies with the disease as dropped into cities water supply i thought might cause it to spread more.


p.s.
thanks for the welcome

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roninshadow
Acolyte

Australia
4 Posts

Posted - 11 Feb 2017 :  16:52:57  Show Profile Send roninshadow a Private Message  Reply with Quote
playing 3.5
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Kentinal
Great Reader

4280 Posts

Posted - 11 Feb 2017 :  17:08:29  Show Profile Send Kentinal a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Hm, range 1,000 feet radius. A small area.

quote:
When pestilence is successfully cast, a wave of illness radiates outward from the site of the ritual, instantly infecting every living thing in the area with the debilitating disease known as slimy doom. Within 24 hours, everything in the area begins to show signs of rot and decay; plants liquefy and yellow, drooping to the ground as they begin to dissolve.

Each day that a victim fails a Fortitude save, it takes 1d4 points of temporary Constitution damage. If the victim then fails a second save, 1 point of that damage is permanent drain. If the victim succeeds at the first saving throw of the day on consecutive days, he or she has recovered from the disease. This magical form of the disease is not contagious and will not spread beyond those initially infected. Fruits and vegetables infected with slimy doom are unfit for consumption, as are disease-ridden livestock.



The spell effect will not spread as written.
quote:
This is a ritual spell requiring two other spellcasters, each of whom must expend an unused epic spell slot for the casting. The primary caster must also burn 10,000 XP.
Also it might be hard to get three Epic spell casters in the middle of target area to cast the spell.

"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon
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roninshadow
Acolyte

Australia
4 Posts

Posted - 11 Feb 2017 :  17:18:38  Show Profile Send roninshadow a Private Message  Reply with Quote
thing looking at 2 different spells

Pestilence

(Book of Vile Darkness)

Necromancy [Evil]
Level: Druid 7, Cleric 8,
Components: V, S, Disease
Casting Time: 1 action
Range: Touch
Target: Living creature touched
Duration: Instantaneous
Saving Throw: Fortitude negates
Spell Resistance: Yes

The subject contracts a particularly terrible and contagious disease, which strikes immediately with no incubation period.
The caster infects the subject with a sickness that deals 1d4 points of Constitution drain each day until the subject dies.
The subject may attempt a new saving throw each day, but she must succeed at two saves in a row to rid herself of the disease (as with most diseases).
However, the disease, once unleashed, continues to spread.
For the first day of the sickness, anyone touching the subject must succeed at a Fortitude saving throw or fall victim to the same malady.
That victim in turn becomes contagious on the first day of her own affliction.
Disease Component: Any disease.

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Kentinal
Great Reader

4280 Posts

Posted - 11 Feb 2017 :  17:29:53  Show Profile Send Kentinal a Private Message  Reply with Quote
*Nods* Sorry, do not have BoVD.
Cure Disease however should be able to stop it and Fort Saves would tend to mean about 1/2 would not be effected. To stand any chance of spread you would need to cast many times in target area. I also note that it appears that only day one would any catch the disease.
quote:
For the first day of the sickness, anyone touching the subject must succeed at a Fortitude saving throw or fall victim to the same malady.
That victim in turn becomes contagious on the first day of her own affliction.

"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon
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SaMoCon
Learned Scribe

USA
210 Posts

Posted - 12 Feb 2017 :  17:58:00  Show Profile Send SaMoCon a Private Message  Reply with Quote
*ahem*
Plague Carrier
(Races of Faerūn, pg190)
Necromancy
Level: Cleric 3, Druid 3, Sorcerer 4, Wizard 4,
Components:
Duration: See text
As contagion, except that the target is not stricken immediately: there is an incubation period. During the incubation period the target can transmit the disease to others but shows no symptoms until his incubation period has ended.

Also, I recommend you don't use real world science in your game. All that does is encourage your players to look for cheats and short cuts to circumvent the rules of the game and does much to undercut the suspension of disbelief necessary for your players to enjoy the fantastic elements of the game.

Make the best use of the system that's there, then modify the mechanics that don't allow you to have the fun you are looking for.
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Ayrik
Great Reader

Canada
6239 Posts

Posted - 12 Feb 2017 :  20:57:38  Show Profile Send Ayrik a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Talona's priests bear sickness, plague, and pestilence. They'll happily poison the well. Feed rot grubs to the livestock. Pour infected leeches into the soup. Feed the local vermin with diseased meats. Treat wounds with bandages covered by ghoul touch or mummy rot. Their touch can inflict all manner of boils and pains, their words can curse people with unpleasant social diseases. They thrive on spreading sickness, they are often allied with the priesthoods of Moander, Loviatar, Shar, or pretty much any other evil deity.

As one can imagine, such people are never welcome and must always act very much like "terrorists". They are actively opposed by priests and paladins who are charged with healing the local population or serving pretty much any non-Evil deity. Priests of Eldath have probably instituted magical prayers and rituals on every well from which they drink. While druids and nature spirits/creatures generally do a fine job of keeping their lakes, ponds, and rivers clear of filth.

[/Ayrik]
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sw1989
Seeker

39 Posts

Posted - 13 Feb 2017 :  17:41:39  Show Profile Send sw1989 a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Hello roninshadow,

your goal is terrorism and not killing people right? I'd suggest "mindfire" for that. The disease in 3.5e is transmitted via inhalation, so just being around someone who has it spreads the disease and it has only one day incubation, so it won't spread far and wide and is easily quarantined and it takes out people without killing them, and because it is "just" strong headache, people might not realize for what it is adn spread it further, so it might not tip your enemies off.

For example, you can let the evil ruler send spies who cast the "contagion" spell on themselves in cities and places with many people close together, for example in a busy market place or during some kind of church service, and just let it spread there. You just have to make sure, that the patient(s) zero don't give them away, for example through feigning their stupor alcohol. "Cackle fever" might also work, if you can somehow cover up the mad laughs.

After the disease spreads, you can then send demagogues or others into these place to tell people that the disease was spread, so the clerics who run that country have an easy time making money with their "remove disease" spells or selling their name with their generosity. Even if the general populace doesn't catch up on it, some will, especially those who don't like the rulers, like people with management skill but don't have a shot at rulership because they can't cast magic.(if it's a restrictive society) It might cause the type of unrest, that removes that cleric-wizard country from the upcoming war.

It was written before too, but your DM should be careful about handling it. It really can get out of hand.

Best Regards
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SaMoCon
Learned Scribe

USA
210 Posts

Posted - 14 Feb 2017 :  00:33:56  Show Profile Send SaMoCon a Private Message  Reply with Quote
In the FR, which would the common citizenry fear more based on their history? The number of kingdoms brought down by disease can be counted on one hand. The number brought down by goblins, hobgoblins, and orcs? Whether they were the nations of elves, dwarves, or humans even at their maximum capabilities multiple have been swarmed under with often several taken out by a single horde and sections of land transformed by pitched battles. I think the people are terrorized by the idea of mounted figures slinking out of the darkness as a worg's howl pierces the stillness of the night. Treat them like mercenaries and pay them if you must, but promise them what loot and slaves they can take if they lay waste with torch and sword to under-defended settlements that your men will scout out and cover their tracks when they are done.

Since armies are mobilizing to go to war with you it may be high time for you to make them pay dearly for moving their most capable fighting men away from hearth and home. Order your ranger force (whether they're true rangers are just lesser classes that have the necessary skills) to seek out bandits, humanoids, and other brutes to guide into the enemy nations' farmlands on the opposite end of your borders to loot and pillage. Make sure your DM fully understands the implications of this action - that the loved ones of the majority of those fighting men are in danger of being hacked down as they flee blood-thirsty monsters while they are being ordered off to fight some petty war in a foreign nation. Even the leadership will have to think twice since the farmlands being put to the torch will reduce that nation's ability to produce food both now and into the future with the loss of crops, herds, and seed. The supplies gathered for the army's supply train may be the only thing that will allow those farmlands to recover if it is not used to feed an invading army.

Take your riff-raff and commission them with disrupting your enemies' trade, caravans, and roads with the promise of bounties for every wagon they seize or destroy. Find your enemies' prisons and empty them while putting into the newly emancipated criminals' heads the knowledge that the local sheriff is dead or gone. Make it a priority to your best rogues & spies to poison water supplies (horses, cattle, and sheep don't drink beer) and attract dangerous predators to each rest stop on the roads (hang up some raw meat for bears and wolves). All traffic should be under constant threat of death unless traveling under heavy guard. Drain your enemies' manpower by forcing them to patrol their own trade routes, send out their best trackers to hunt down the bandits, and send garrisons to restore order. Be prepared with your own mounted or fast-moving forces to overtake an army that is being recalled or has had its force divided to secure its own rear area.

Make the best use of the system that's there, then modify the mechanics that don't allow you to have the fun you are looking for.
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
30083 Posts

Posted - 14 Feb 2017 :  02:54:03  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Getting a dragon to randomly drop in and torch towns would rather much inspire some terror, too.

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Kentinal
Great Reader

4280 Posts

Posted - 14 Feb 2017 :  03:38:06  Show Profile Send Kentinal a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

Getting a dragon to randomly drop in and torch towns would rather much inspire some terror, too.



But do you have enough money to pay the Dragon to target only one area? Oh control Dragon might work. *G*

"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
30083 Posts

Posted - 14 Feb 2017 :  04:09:06  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Kentinal

quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

Getting a dragon to randomly drop in and torch towns would rather much inspire some terror, too.



But do you have enough money to pay the Dragon to target only one area? Oh control Dragon might work. *G*



If they've got enough magic to consider a magical plague to be a viable option, I'm sure they have enough to either control a dragon or make some sort of limited partnership with one.

Just one, attacking random places at random intervals, would cause a lot of problems, including both terror and a lack of confidence in the leadership that couldn't seem to respond.

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Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 14 Feb 2017 04:10:05
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SaMoCon
Learned Scribe

USA
210 Posts

Posted - 14 Feb 2017 :  20:27:40  Show Profile Send SaMoCon a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by roninshadow
...i am playing a game where I am evil ruler, just learn that that some bordering nations are planning to attack.
one of the nations is run by clerics and wizards so...

Seems that magical resources are more handily on the side that will be doing the invading that roninshadow wants to stop. So, magically controlling a dragon to do one's bidding when the opponent is likely to have the means to undo said control and free said beastie to, I dunno', seek revenge against the person or persons that made it their playthings seems counterproductive to me. And, really, what kind of dragon is weak enough to succumb to mind control magics of 5th-7th level spell casters (the minimum range of the contagion spreaders) but still be useful for delaying a nation from all out war? Plus the resources needed to command one dragon puts an awful lot of eggs into one basket.

Besides, should smart evil leaders buddy up with anything that has less to lose or more to gain through betrayal than said evil leader?

Make the best use of the system that's there, then modify the mechanics that don't allow you to have the fun you are looking for.
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
30083 Posts

Posted - 14 Feb 2017 :  21:15:41  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by SaMoCon

So, magically controlling a dragon to do one's bidding when the opponent is likely to have the means to undo said control and free said beastie to, I dunno', seek revenge against the person or persons that made it their playthings seems counterproductive to me.


Hence the random element of it. If they don't know when and where -- or even if -- the dragon is going to attack, they're going to have a hard time stopping it.

Besides, dragons sometimes attack cities without any apparent provocation. Just because one starts attacking one particular nation doesn't necessarily mean that it's anything other than a random thing. Even if it's not random, it still doesn't necessarily mean that the dragon is under the control of another nation.

quote:
Originally posted by SaMoCon

And, really, what kind of dragon is weak enough to succumb to mind control magics of 5th-7th level spell casters (the minimum range of the contagion spreaders) but still be useful for delaying a nation from all out war?



Why are you assuming that the weakest possible casters would be used? You'd want to use one or more of the most powerful mages at your disposal for something like this. That's just common sense.

...And it wouldn't necessarily take all that many mages, either. Published Realmslore has many cases of dragons under the magical domination of single casters.

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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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LordofBones
Senior Scribe

418 Posts

Posted - 18 Feb 2017 :  05:13:56  Show Profile Send LordofBones a Private Message  Reply with Quote
The necrotic line of spells, or a ton of undead chickens/crows with Destruction Retribution and a low-level aoe spell. Set them all off, and laugh.
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