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KanzenAU
Senior Scribe
Australia
763 Posts |
 Posted - 31 Jan 2017 : 12:13:39
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I've been thinking about climate on Toril, and as many sages before me have noted, I can't help but notice the Endless Ice Sea and other ice formations are very far south of where they would be expected. The Endless Ice Sea starts at about the 52nd parallel north, and can't be accounted for with Earth as a close parallel to Toril (although the size and tilt are different, they're not different enough). Ed has said in the past that winters are about the equivalent of +5 parallels north, but that's still not enough. Admittedly he was mainly talking about the Heartlands and Waterdeep, but it still seems like it couldn't be that cold up there.
It's possible the entire area could be at an altitude of 2,000+ metres, which might account for it. Or, magic, or gods. Or Ulutiu's necklace had a far greater effect than just the Great Glacier.
Any ideas, sages?
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Regional maps for Waterdeep, Triboar, Ardeep Forest, and Cormyr on DM's Guild, plus a campaign sized map for the North |
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TBeholder
Great Reader
2383 Posts |
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KanzenAU
Senior Scribe
Australia
763 Posts |
Posted - 01 Feb 2017 : 07:17:24
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That is almost certainly true, but I'm hoping there's a little bit more to it than that, and that those sorts of things didn't account for Toril-wide, centuries lasting, climate changes - at least not en masse.
I've had a look at the axial tilt (28.89deg) and other parameters of Toril as laid down by Ed in previous threads, and figured out the Arctic Circle should be as low as 61.11deg north of the equator (Earth's is around 66). We know the last ice age extended on Earth extended about as far down as the 40th parallel north (getting right down to Manhattan), albeit 20,000 years ago, so ice being down to such a level isn't flat out totally crazy. But, the greater axial tilt of Toril should also melt ice faster, due to greater sun exposure, so this doesn't seem like enough on its own. While we don't know how much the tilt wobbles, it can't be too drastic, as that would cause widespread environmental chaos.
I wonder if Toril isn't still recovering from an ice age, perhaps the one mentioned in GHotR as ending about 37,000 years ago. At first glance it seems that over that amount of time, given the similarity of Toril's climate to that of Earth, the glaciers should have receded more. However, the GHotR makes it sound like that ice age was no minor thing, and covered the whole of Toril.
quote:
This earliest days of recorded history begin at the end of a great Ice Age, some 37,000 years ago, when the last glaciations largely ended and the great ocean receded to reveal dry land.
In that case, especially considering the large albedo slowdown effect that amount of ice and snow would produce, it seems possible that they're still receding. There's also the fact that the North Pole of Toril is significantly blocked off from warm ocean currents by large continents in most directions, resulting in far from maximal heating of the glaciers. The Spine of the World would further shield the glaciers from many of the warming winds.
A receding Ice Age as the cause seems to be what I'm going with for now. Interested in others' thoughts! And yes, the Ring of Winter is always an option... |
Regional maps for Waterdeep, Triboar, Ardeep Forest, and Cormyr on DM's Guild, plus a campaign sized map for the North |
Edited by - KanzenAU on 01 Feb 2017 07:20:35 |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 01 Feb 2017 : 09:11:12
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You may have answered your own question.
I've had a lot of problems with Toril's weather myself, and decided it must have almost no axial tilt, to account for the perma-frost at both poles. Now, that might go against what Ed said, but its the only thing that made any sense... until just now.
I'm also aware of several large meteor strikes in recent centuries, the most recent being in the vicinity of the Moonsea and probably landed somewhere in - or past - Vassa. This coincides with Vassa having come out from under the icecap.
So what if all of it were true? What if Ed's statement about Toril's axial tilt is current, but has only changed recently ('recent' being within the past 500 years). Both the Sea of Fallen stars (Note the name) and the Moonsea (also note the name) were made up of much smaller bodies of water that were increased in size (and connected together) after meteor strikes. Now, we know the Inner Sea happened in the distant past (but NOT as far back as the Sundering - it happened during the age when Giants had their kingdoms), but what occurred with the Moonsea may have been quite recent. What if we had a shallow-strike meteor impact - one that only skinned the surface (like what some scientists believe created The Great lakes) - and it caused an axial or crustal shift? We may have had almost no axial tilt just a mere 300 years ago, and now we have 29ŗ axial tilt.
That could account for quite a lot of the freakish weather, and 'iceage-like' conditions until recently. The Ama Basin in northern Kara-Tur also seems to be very similar to whats going on in northern Russia these days, with conditions that seem to indicate much of it has recently come out from under glacial conditions (Taiga forests and massive (cold) wetlands. There are also quite a lot of 'ancient ruins' there that are perfectly preserved - perhaps from some primordial culture that got stuck under the ice (perhaps during The Sundering). The same could be said for the far north of Faerūn - the giant empires were all over that northern area before the ice took over, and there are ruins there as well (I recall at least one article about them on the WotC site).
So it appears that we have some sort of freezing event (which might just be that necklace under the Great Glacier), and then we had a major warming event... or there may have been more then one of each (perhaps more similar to Earth's weather history than I previously thought). I hadn't thought Toril had a true Ice-age, because it still has dinosaurs, but that could be explained by magic and gods, or just that during the time of no axial tilt, they all existed in a narrow band near the equator. Most of the existing prehistoric creatures still live in those areas, but some apparently have migrated as far as the North. Some of those may have been transplants, though. For example, there are raptors in the stonelands, but we also have a canon novel that takes place a thousand years in Cormyr's past wherein an explorer goes to chult; eggs could have easily made their way back around that time, and a millennia later we have raptors near Cormyr. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 01 Feb 2017 09:27:43 |
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KanzenAU
Senior Scribe
Australia
763 Posts |
Posted - 01 Feb 2017 : 11:24:17
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I spent a lot of time reading about climate and axial tilts and such today, when I probably should have been doing other things... 
I'm not sure if a change of axial tilt that huge could have gone unnoticed (unrecorded in major lore) over the last 500 years. That kind of change would alter the whole world's climate drastically, and I would have thought that would have affected the history of every land on Toril.
I'm going through the GHotR now to find more stuff, here's a breakdown of interesting tidbits:
-35,000 DR: End of last great Ice Age, "great ocean reveals dry land", beginning of Days of Thunder
-31,500 DR: Map on p6 shows ice coverage being at about the same level as OGB maps, implying not much change over the next 33,000 years.
-31,000 DR: The batrachi release several primordials from imprisonment as a part of their war with the titans, and terrible earthquakes, fires, and windstorms sweep the planet. The primordial Asgorath the World Shaper hurls an ice moon at Toril. The four inner seas merge into the Sea of Fallen Stars. The climate change wipes out the batrachi and Ao creates the twin world of Abeir which the primordials are granted dominion of. The sarrukh remark on the "changing of the stars", possibly implying that either a jump in time or location was made for Toril as well.
-17,600 DR: The first Sundering ritual makes a concentration of the Weave so powerful a piece of Arvandor is brought into Faerun, which itself is shattered into multiple continents. The aftermath may result in the Weave being less uniform outside of Evermeet (p11 GHotR)
-339 DR: Karsus "slays" Mystryl, causing widespread disruptions to the Weave.
1385: The Spellplague erupts when the Weave is again disrupted with the "death" of Mystra, and the twin worlds of Abeir and Toril partly merge
1482-87: The "second Sundering" splits the twin worlds of Abeir and Toril once more, Mystra reappears and the Weave is rebuilt.
I would argue these are the only events known to us that are large-scale enough to significantly change the climate of the entire planet. The Dark Disaster, the wars of Calim and Memnon, the draining of the Anauroch etc etc I think are probably too small scale to affect the whole of Toril. I didn't really want to add in the Mystra stuff either, but as she is close to an Overgod and the Weave lies over the whole world, I figured those events warrant a mention.
ANYWAY, main point is, it appears that the retraction of the ice occurred relatively quickly, over 3,500 years (if the map on p6 of GHotR is to believed, which is debatable). That could easily be explained by Toril's large axial tilt (which, in addition may have been different prior to this). So, if this is the case, we have almost another 33,000 years to explain why it stays where it is for the rest of that time.
My new theory is that the "changing of the stars" event brought about by the batrachi is the link here. It occurred only 500 years after the above-mentioned map, which puts it at the perfect time to halt the glacial retreat at where it is. Plus, we know primordials were running rampant. Plus, we know there's a rapid change in climate, which eliminates the batrachi. This is also the last major definitive change in climate in the setting, so it makes sense to use it - I don't doubt the Sundering would have changed a great deal, but potentially it might not have altered this specific thing.
So, whatever the batrachi do halts the glacial retreat and the climate goes haywire for a period as primordials go nuts.
Perhaps, and this is stretching it in a way I didn't particularly want to go, but perhaps the Endless Ice Sea is linked to an ice primordial that remained behind after the split of Abeir and Toril, similar to Borem of the Boiling Mud. It's an easy explanation for why the glaciers didn't keep receding at least, and it uses the prior lore.
Personally I was getting attached to the "glaciers still in retreat" theory, so I'm a little bit disappointed by the revelation of the p6 map. But, in the interest of being true to the lore, the batrachi event leaving behind a primordial of ice is my best explanation. Maybe that primordial was even one of the Seven Lost Gods, and since its destruction within the last couple of millennia the glaciers have once again began to retreat...
Many possibilities. Keen to hear other theories and thoughts. |
Regional maps for Waterdeep, Triboar, Ardeep Forest, and Cormyr on DM's Guild, plus a campaign sized map for the North |
Edited by - KanzenAU on 01 Feb 2017 11:26:27 |
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Brimstone
Great Reader
USA
3286 Posts |
Posted - 01 Feb 2017 : 14:36:45
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| What was the name of the book that the antagonist was trying to blow up a volcano in the Hordelands? Volcanic explosions when they are big enough can also mess with climate |
"These things also I have observed: that knowledge of our world is
to be nurtured like a precious flower, for it is the most precious
thing we have. Wherefore guard the word written and heed
words unwritten and set them down ere they fade . . . Learn
then, well, the arts of reading, writing, and listening true, and they
will lead you to the greatest art of all: understanding."
Alaundo of Candlekeep |
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Wrigley
Senior Scribe
Czech Republic
605 Posts |
Posted - 01 Feb 2017 : 21:03:32
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I would add:
-4000 DR The duergar rebel against their illithid masters and eventually free themselves of the mind flayers dominion. These newly liberated gray dwarves carve out their own holdings in the northern Underdark, beneath the Orsraun Mountains, and in isolated caverns deep beneath the Great Glacier. (I find this note about glacier just north of Jhaamdath strange at least)
-2550 DR Ulutiu, a minor sea deity, exiles himself to the Astral Plane. His ice necklace sinks, creating the Great Glacier. (??? Lets ignore this one)
-2465 DR The elves of Lethyr use High Magic to stop the spread of the Great Glacier southward and to regulate temperatures, thereby preserving their forest home and surrounding lands. (This suggest that glacier was around Moonsea, Rashemen, Neverwinter and Silver Marches, possibly even lower at that time)
-2460 DR The Nar human tribes and the hobgoblins of the northern mountains and tundra, pushed south by the expansion of the Great Glacier, come into conflict with each other and the elves of Lethyr
632 DR In Eleint, the Ice Queens Winter descends on Myth Ondath [555, 633]. Led by the lich Vrandak the Burnished, the besieging army of Iyraclea the Ice Queen is accompanied by winter storms raised by her magic, that claw Myth Ondath all year long. This attack spreads awareness of Iyracleas might across the Realms, and makes her claim of being the preeminent cleric of Auril in all of Faer#251;n fact rather than mere hollow boast. The Frostmaiden empowers Iyraclea with new and mightier cold magics, and the Great Glacier under which she dwells begins to expand. (Not sure where is glacier at that time, in this region it might have receeded due to heat from Anauroch desert. It might have broken its power as it splitted glacier in half)
991 DR The kingdom of Sossal [331, 1319] is rocked by a series of earthquakes. The tremors create fissures in parts of the Great Glacier, unleashing several power-ful demons trapped there since the fall of Narfell. Led by their ruler Londra-eth, the warriors of Sossal manage to vanquish the rampaging fiends. (seems like melting ice byproduct)
1038 DR The Great Glacier retreats from the lands of Damara, Vaasa, and upper Narfell. Many folk from Impiltur and Thesk migrate north to the newly uncovered lands. (Glacier in form almost as we know it today around 1300+ DR)
so it seems that around 600-800 DR the expansion/area of Glacier started to halt and receed taking another 200 years to free Vaasa from it. |
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KanzenAU
Senior Scribe
Australia
763 Posts |
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KanzenAU
Senior Scribe
Australia
763 Posts |
Posted - 02 Feb 2017 : 11:31:51
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Another spanner that makes me want to go back to the "glaciers in retreat" theory, courtesy of The Hooded One in this thread:
quote:
Originally posted by The Hooded One
And things are definitely warming up, in Waterdeep's vicinity (i.e. the winters in the late 1200s DR and the first half of the 1300s DR were far more severe, with the harbor freezing up, etc., than they are now).
All of this comes from Ed, BTW, and being as he created the Realms and Waterdeep along with it...
love,
THO
This warming could be a sign the climate is continuing to change... or it could be only around Waterdeeep/the Sword Coast, or it could be a medieval warm period like couple of centuries and then everything settles down again. Probably more likely to be one of the latter, but interesting nonetheless. |
Regional maps for Waterdeep, Triboar, Ardeep Forest, and Cormyr on DM's Guild, plus a campaign sized map for the North |
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Wrigley
Senior Scribe
Czech Republic
605 Posts |
Posted - 02 Feb 2017 : 18:18:45
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| I have a theory that Ice ages are coming in cycles of few thousand years. From my notes this should be around each 12000 years. This fits at -24000, -12000 and -3000. Only big problem are elves as they have been occuping northern teritories through out those times without problem. Or could it be that Crown Wars were started due to shortening of resources in the North? That would be a interesting spin on that event... |
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6351 Posts |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 02 Feb 2017 : 19:55:06
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There are a bunch of meteor-related events missing from the GHotR, from such diverse source as The Great Glacier and Player's guide to the Forgotten Realms (both 2e) - the second source is actually a 'frame story' of just such a strike ('fallen tear').
I've come to the conclusion that the events detailed in that work must have taken place sometime before the 1e campaign start date, and perhaps even a few centuries earlier. However, I'm not sure if there are mentions of prominent figures that would mess up that theory (some - like Chosen and elves - wouldn't really matter, because of their long lives).
Also, FR has gods, and an overgod, and they could 'assuage' both the physical damage from such an event, and also memories of it. We've had examples of both in canon. We've also had an example of a MAJOR meteorological/cosmological event that NO-ONE apparently noticed - not even the Chosen! (it was in one of Paul Kemp's novels - I don't recall the details, but it was a planet-killer involved in that, which got 'shattered' just before impact, IIRC). A million smaller meteors rained down all over the Heartlands... and no-one batted an eye. Must be a fairly common occurrence, I guess. 
EDIT: And there HAVE BEEN several large volcano eruptions in FR as well, including two (related) ones in the Threat from the Sea series. Apparently, when you have 'gods & magic', that influences your climate and geography much more than RW science does. My point here being that, I doubt 'the gods' would allow a naturally-occurring (or unnatural) cosmological event (like a crustal shift) to wipe-out their followers en masse. Yes, it IS far-fetched, but so are constant, fairly large meteor-strikes that have NOT 'killed the planet' (The Tunlands is a crater, BTW, and the 'Star Mounts' are the remnants of a crashed meteor... the whole freakin' range! There are dozens more I have become aware of). |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 02 Feb 2017 20:02:35 |
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Brimstone
Great Reader
USA
3286 Posts |
Posted - 02 Feb 2017 : 21:32:54
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| Don't forget the Dragon Laser next to Westgate that was built to shoot down the King Killer Star. |
"These things also I have observed: that knowledge of our world is
to be nurtured like a precious flower, for it is the most precious
thing we have. Wherefore guard the word written and heed
words unwritten and set them down ere they fade . . . Learn
then, well, the arts of reading, writing, and listening true, and they
will lead you to the greatest art of all: understanding."
Alaundo of Candlekeep |
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KanzenAU
Senior Scribe
Australia
763 Posts |
Posted - 02 Feb 2017 : 22:44:39
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Just lost a long post 
In short my post was about not every volcanic eruption and meteor strike as having to be massively climate changing. We've had about 20 volcano eruptions and at least 4 meteor strikes on Earth since 2000 alone, so it's possible the events mentioned thus far simply weren't big enough to affect the climate outside the local area long term. Real world examples include 2014's eruption of Mount Ontake and the 2013 meteor strike at Chelyabinsk, both of which had devastating effects locally, but weren't noticed climate-wise globally - at least not long term.
Even the fallout from Selune from the "dragon laser" is very dependent on how big the chunks were falling to Toril, and where they landed. I'm a bit confused about that event - GHotR seems to indicate that event occurred towards the end of the Time of Dragons and was responsible for an "inland sea", whereas we know the Sea of Fallen Stars was created earlier, in -31,000 DR by the batrachi event. Maybe it meant an inland sea on Selune, or maybe the writer (this is from a document alleged to be written in -349 DR) just got it wrong. Or maybe it just widened the Sea of Fallen Stars... was this covered in any other sources?
Anyway, I'm no climate scientist, just a guy that's read a lot in the past few days. YMMV. But, I'd like to be able to explain things without using deities and magic until we absolutely have to. If there's a solution that avoids using them, I'd be a happy man.
Edit: Could the Tunlands crater and the Star Mounts be from a time before the previous Ice Age? That would help explain them away... |
Regional maps for Waterdeep, Triboar, Ardeep Forest, and Cormyr on DM's Guild, plus a campaign sized map for the North |
Edited by - KanzenAU on 02 Feb 2017 22:49:10 |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 03 Feb 2017 : 05:46:07
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Well, there was crustal shift in the movie 2012, and John Cusak and the rest of the people (left) on Earth didn't seem to notice (much).
So if a movie says it can happen, well, then... a magical fantasy setting can do it too. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11695 Posts |
Posted - 03 Feb 2017 : 23:15:03
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quote:
Originally posted by KanzenAU
Just lost a long post
In short my post was about not every volcanic eruption and meteor strike as having to be massively climate changing. We've had about 20 volcano eruptions and at least 4 meteor strikes on Earth since 2000 alone, so it's possible the events mentioned thus far simply weren't big enough to affect the climate outside the local area long term. Real world examples include 2014's eruption of Mount Ontake and the 2013 meteor strike at Chelyabinsk, both of which had devastating effects locally, but weren't noticed climate-wise globally - at least not long term.
Even the fallout from Selune from the "dragon laser" is very dependent on how big the chunks were falling to Toril, and where they landed. I'm a bit confused about that event - GHotR seems to indicate that event occurred towards the end of the Time of Dragons and was responsible for an "inland sea", whereas we know the Sea of Fallen Stars was created earlier, in -31,000 DR by the batrachi event. Maybe it meant an inland sea on Selune, or maybe the writer (this is from a document alleged to be written in -349 DR) just got it wrong. Or maybe it just widened the Sea of Fallen Stars... was this covered in any other sources?
Anyway, I'm no climate scientist, just a guy that's read a lot in the past few days. YMMV. But, I'd like to be able to explain things without using deities and magic until we absolutely have to. If there's a solution that avoids using them, I'd be a happy man.
Edit: Could the Tunlands crater and the Star Mounts be from a time before the previous Ice Age? That would help explain them away...
Actually, Markustay may have hit on the explanation to those two separate events before. The one that was in -31000 DR destroyed the Ice Moon Zotha (possibly creating the tears of Selune) created the Sea of Fallen Stars and dropped a bunch of dragon eggs onto Toril. We've had a lot of theories for this, but it involved "Asgoroth the World Shaper" destroying the ice moon by hurling it at the world. We also have the story of "Asgorath the World Shaper" in the 1e draconomicon using its breath to "destroy the crystal sun" (the "crystal sun" that Zotha had wrought before Asgorath cast him down.) So, did Asgorath/Asgoroth destroy an ice moon or a crystal sun? Either way, something fell from the sky and afterwards dragons were come to Toril.... and Abeir and Toril were split.
So maybe the "dragon laser" talked about by Kisonraathiisar caused the moonsea? |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6351 Posts |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 04 Feb 2017 : 02:15:33
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quote:
Originally posted by KanzenAU
Edit: Could the Tunlands crater and the Star Mounts be from a time before the previous Ice Age? That would help explain them away...
I would hazard to guess they were from the time of the (1st) Sundering, with all that stuff Slevas just talked about above.
Something - some sort of uber proto-god (Primoridal?) - 'died', and its 'parts' rained down upon Toril. We have the elves using 'Star Silver' from those very mountains during the Age of the Dragon Empires (which was right after the worlds were split).*
I am sure something VERY important - an important 'body part' or artifact - lies somewhere beneath the Cormyr region (on into the Tunlands and the Stonelands). I think this 'may' be connected to the Crystal Grott.
As for the sun/Moon thing, if we try to combine some of the draconic myths with those of FR's pantheon (and who's to say they're NOT the same myths? Why are we even considering Powers that are most certainly proto-gods 'human' at all? Shar and selūne are NOT 'human' - never were. Neither is Mystryl), then perhaps the 'body' that Selūne set alight was the ice moon, thus creating that 'First Sun', which pissed Shar off no end, so she destroyed it (creating the series of events that lead to Ao needing to Sunder Abeir and Toril in the first place - the Creator-Races PRE-EXISTED that separation).
So we have two immensely powerful beings - basically just 'energy incarnate'. I have a theory that the very term 'dragon' (in the D&Dverse) derives from an earlier 'draco' term simply meaning 'something of unimaginable power'. This is why the VERY different Celestial Dragons of the east - actually 'gods' - are still called 'dragons' (and one of them was apparently a thousand miles long, when you look at the Dragonwall). Anyhow, these two 'forces of nature' were once so close to almost(?) be considered 'one', and then they had a disagreement over a smaller body (some sort of 'child' Eggs WERE involved in one version), and that thing (whatever it was) was destroyed... but out of that destruction rained-down thousands of fragments (although some stayed aloft, orbiting their moth.. errr... the Moon). Some of them still fall 'till this day. And we have a battle between these two monstrous entities, and during that conflict their two energies are combined to form a new being (a child of the first two), who would become the Weave.
If you look at all the (D&D) creation myths, they aren't so different. Even the one from Guide to Hell is about two COSMIC draconic entities fighting and creating the Great Wheel (giving birth to the universe itself). Instead of looking for the differences, we need to see the subtle truths. There is no 'human' pantheon, or 'draconic' pantheon - beings of that level of power can appear any way they wish, or just the way their faithful expect them too. There's really just one set of 'gods', and just one 'creation', but mortal folly and a million years of 'retelling' has obfuscated those subtle truths. Energy has no form, except for the one your mind assigns to it.
*Realms of the Elves - after just re-reading a portion of it, I realize that the thing about 'Star Silver' once being mined in the Star Mounts was probably from a sourcebook, possibly The North, and that the exact quote says, "Silver mined from Selūne herself"... Hmmmmmmmm...
I know somewhere - possibly further along in that story - they go on to say there is no more 'Star Silver' left to mine there. Thus, the Elves must have 'used up' whatever piece of the 'fallen thingy' fell there, and once again, I think it is of a different nature than that which fell in or around Cormyr (which I would guess was some sort of crystal). |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 04 Feb 2017 02:35:33 |
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KanzenAU
Senior Scribe
Australia
763 Posts |
Posted - 04 Feb 2017 : 02:39:18
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quote:
Originally posted by dazzlerdal
I dont think thats possible.
Im pretty sure the moonsea was around during the 1000 years war between giant and dragon. At that time it was called the dragonsea because of all the dragons around it.
The dragonlaser was a gathering of dragons around -5500 dr on the edgde of westgate.
p48 of the GHotR indicates that the dragonlaser (we really need a better word for that!) took place in the "last days of the Reign of Dragons", which seems to indicate sometime between -25,000 and -24,000 DR. The former date is around the creation of the King Killer Star, and the latter is the formal start of "The First Flowering" and the time of elves. But, this is the only source I'm aware of - where are you getting the other date from? I still want to know more about this dragonlaser.
quote:
From Grand History of the Realms, p48
...they scored only a glancing blow on the moon that circles our world, leaving only a string of tears and an inland sea to mark their failure.
p8 indicates the Sea of Fallen Stars was created by the batrachi/Asgorath event of -31,000 DR, and p9&10 indicates the Moonsea was around during the Time of Dragons (though called the Dragon's Sea).
The description "a string of tears and an inland sea" seems to refer to the Tears of Selune floating behind the moon, and my guess is that the inland sea actually refers to a sea on Selune itself. We know that there are huge lakes and seas on the true surface of Selune from the Spelljammer Realmspace supplement, so it makes good sense that the dragonlaser made one of these.
Dragonlaser fires, misses King Killer Star and hits moon, creates Tears of Selune and an inland sea on Selune. Is there anything in the lore saying anywhere that anything actually hits Toril? |
Regional maps for Waterdeep, Triboar, Ardeep Forest, and Cormyr on DM's Guild, plus a campaign sized map for the North |
Edited by - KanzenAU on 04 Feb 2017 02:40:29 |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 04 Feb 2017 : 02:40:23
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So anyway, getting back to the OT - with all this 'cosmic weirdness' going on throughout Abeir-Toil's history, with these 'uber-Powers' being able to mitigate the devastation somewhat (in order to preserve life on the world itself), FR's weather s a very... tricky.. thing.
Whatever the case may be, we see (mostly in the FRIA) that both poles are covered with a LOT of ice, and we know thats not always the case, and by the time we see the 3e world map, the ice is left completely off (which doesn't really mean anything, unless we know for sure that map is 'in game'). And Ed has told me that passage between the Sea of Moving Ice and The Great Ice Sea has been possible in the past (and may be yet again, now that the ice is receding).
EDIT: You posted again before I hit 'Post', so this is in response to your last post.
I think there was trilogy, but I didn't read it, regarding the 'King-Killer Star'. All my info comes from that book I quoted above (Realms of the Elves) which also covered those events, in a couple of short stories. The Sea of Fallen Stars being created during the time of the Creators doesn't make much sense, since we have lore saying the giants had kingdoms in that spot (of course, at least two kinds of giants can live under water). There are even the ruins of a giant kingdom of some islands, and the elves remember a 'kingdom of the big folk' (so AFTER the time of the Creators).
Thats why I think the Inner sea was just a smaller (or several smaller) body of water that got enlarged later by (another?) meteor-strike (there is some sort of weird 'legend' about the giants chasing a 'big rock' into the sea). So I'm picturing something like the great Lakes, and then something else hitting the region, and now we have the Sea of Fallen Stars as we know it today (because how could we have even gotten that name IF it happened BEFORE the Sundering?)
As for the Moonsea, thats a bit more confusing. We have some very ancient lore about it being around, and at the same time, the name itself implies it was created by another 'strike' (and I believe I verified in one of Ed's replies to me, but I'm not sure). The small strike that is the basis for the 2e FRPG story was in that vicinty, but the sea itself was already there (and I believe it was still unfound at the end, and they were all the way in Vassa, IIRC, so it may even have landed in The Great Glacier). |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 04 Feb 2017 02:53:45 |
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KanzenAU
Senior Scribe
Australia
763 Posts |
Posted - 04 Feb 2017 : 02:54:44
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Whatever the case may be, we see (mostly in the FRIA) that both poles are covered with a LOT of ice, and we know thats not always the case, and by the time we see the 3e world map, the ice is left completely off (which doesn't really mean anything, unless we know for sure that map is 'in game'). And Ed has told me that passage between the Sea of Moving Ice and The Great Ice Sea has been possible in the past (and may be yet again, now that the ice is receding).
I don't think the 3e world map (I assume you mean the FRCS one?) would necessarily show the ice caps - real world maps rarely do either! I assumed those world maps only showed land masses and not ice masses, similar to most maps.
With regards to the connection between seas, I assume you're talking about THO's response in this thread, where I think the implication is that the ice caps DO exist, and are hundreds of feet thick. Can you quote the post where they (THO or Ed) said that passage was possible in the past? I'm interested, because that would change a very great deal.
EDIT: Sounds like I'll have to find a copy of Realms of the Elves then! If anyone can help out with the trilogy name, that would also be appreciated. |
Regional maps for Waterdeep, Triboar, Ardeep Forest, and Cormyr on DM's Guild, plus a campaign sized map for the North |
Edited by - KanzenAU on 04 Feb 2017 03:10:41 |
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KanzenAU
Senior Scribe
Australia
763 Posts |
Posted - 04 Feb 2017 : 04:07:53
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As far as the timeline for the Sea of Fallen Stars goes, I haven't yet found an indication that it wasn't entirely created by the Asgorath/batrachi event. It's definitely possible later impacts widened it, but I can't find anything in the lore to that effect.
The only giants I'm aware of in the region are storm giants (mentioned in Sea of Fallen Stars) in the underwater Mountains of Volar, and these could easily have been founded in the Time of Giants with a present Sea of Fallen Stars, as the dwellings are underwater. They could also have been founded well after the Time of Giants and even the Sundering, but I find this less likely with the decline of giants over this period. I imagine the "kingdoms of the big folk", if they were on land, were likely giant settlements on islands, and this doesn't preclude an earlier creation for the SoFS either.
Sea of Fallen Stars also states elven reports of dragons ruling over these lands prior to their arrival in -17,000 DR, just after the Sundering. So it seems like the Sea was already present, with dragons around it. But, this could go either way, SoFS doesn't state when the Sea was created. It does say that "life has existed around the Inner Sea" since time immemorial" though...
I don't know why the Sea of Fallen Stars has to have obtained its name after the Sundering - it could be a name found in the writings of the sarrukh who witnessed it, or it could be a later name created from cave-paintings of the primitive humans who would have witnessed it.
The Tearfall however (the Asgorath/batrachi event), does happen in -31,000 DR according to GHotR, and does create the Sea of Fallen Stars, and does lead to the birth of the dragons on Toril - making it a "major centre for dragons" mentioned in SoFS. The GHotR says that scholars speculate that this was a comet or ice moon falling to Toril, and the dragons hatched soon after. This event is actually expanded upon in the 4e FRCG, with "scholars" holding that a chunk of Torils second moon struck Faerūn at that time (second moon?!!! This is new canon to me!), but the timeline remains the same.
A nice myth for me would be that Asgorath (or Io in other myths), as per the "Book of the World" in the Draconomicon (p2), put his lifeforce into the "Crystal Sun of Zotha" (the second moon, an ice moon that looks and glows like crystal which was created by Zotha) to destroy it, and his blood mixed with the physical ice moon and fell to the world as the eggs of dragonkind. This fits in nicely with the creation myths of the dragons. This way, both the "second moon falling" and "creation of dragons" boxes are ticked, and we get the SoFS getting created and the dragons hatching soon after.
That's my take anyway. I look forward to reading Realms of the Elves and this other trilogy to see what lines up, but for the meantime I haven't seen another definite large scale impact in the canon after -31,000 DR. I'm hoping to prepare a proper treatise on Faerun's climate eventually, so if anyone turns up anything large-scale that might impact that, hit up this thread! |
Regional maps for Waterdeep, Triboar, Ardeep Forest, and Cormyr on DM's Guild, plus a campaign sized map for the North |
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6351 Posts |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11695 Posts |
Posted - 04 Feb 2017 : 16:16:22
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quote:
Originally posted by dazzlerdal
I dont think thats possible.
Im pretty sure the moonsea was around during the 1000 years war between giant and dragon. At that time it was called the dragonsea because of all the dragons around it.
The dragonlaser was a gathering of dragons around -5500 dr on the edgde of westgate.
Still possible. The dragonsea may have been a smaller sea, enlarged after the crash. May be why it got renamed from the dragonsea to the moonsea. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Wrigley
Senior Scribe
Czech Republic
605 Posts |
Posted - 04 Feb 2017 : 23:10:03
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Asgorath myth tells us about him eating the sun. We know it is the same event that ended Batrachi rule and we know that meteorite swarm created Sea of the Fallen Stars from multiple lakes already in the area. It also created Seven Turn Winter - seven years long darkness from ash cloud. I see this "eating of sun" as poetic description of this long period of darkness.
Dragon laser - for me it was a desparate attempt by dragons to stop the Rage from destroying their empires by binding seven lost gods and use their power to break that curse. Sadly it didn't work well and those lost gods broke free. The hills around Westgate are remnant of this ritual. |
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KanzenAU
Senior Scribe
Australia
763 Posts |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 05 Feb 2017 : 02:57:46
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No, except for a conversation with Ed (in his thread here), and the story that is the 2e Player's Guide to the Forgotten Realms - which has the party travel toward the Moonsea in search of the 'fallen tear', but then beyond it (as I said, I assume it landed in the Great Glacier, which, if the story did happen a few centuries before 1e, then that could have been part of the reason why the icecap melted). The thing with Ed was something about why the name changed from The Dragon Sea to The Moonsea, but that was very long time ago, when I was trying to track-down every instance of 'Star' or 'Moon' in every FR name. He had also made a rather cryptic comment somewhere about "the greatest secret of the Realms has been staring everyone in the face all along".
Which I think has to do with what we are talking about here with these 'tear falls', and also the shape of the Inner sea itself. What if the Sea itself used to be smaller, because it had less water in it? Maybe BECAUSE the polar icecaps have been melting the sea levels have risen (and if you read through PftF, PftM, and SotM you'll see him talk about a LOT of island chains, peninsulas, and whole kingdoms that existed on the Sword Coast that have since been 'swept beneath the waves'). That would also mean all the islands in the SoFS would be larger, and maybe connected - a lost 'landmass' right there in the middle of it (and note that the Dragonisle - volcano and all - falls-out where a heart would be, IF the shape of the Inner Sea was due to a being landing there).
All of this I've brought-up to Ed, and all my guesses about these 'deeper secrets' he said "dances around something very monumental, but I wasn't quite hitting the nail on the head". So for almost 20 years, I just keep turning all this information - and the myths about Toril's creation - over and over in my head, trying to get a new angle on things. One thing that was confirmed is that the 'Tears of Selūne' are so-named for more than poetic reasons - something about their original creation makes Selūne very sad. Thus, a lost 'child' or 'lover', I'm thinking, or maybe something else. Perhaps something even closer to her.
For the past couple of years a very strange theory has been taking shape in my head, and I think if its true, than perhaps the TSR/WotC employees have since created some lore that has made 'Ed's Truth' either impossible, or much harder to reconcile, and that is that Shar DIED during the War of Light & Darkness, and all of that are her remains, and that 'crime' drove Selūne insane, and now she has two personalities... hers, and that of her dead sister. However, since THAT would have had to have been part of FR's core concepts all along, and we know when Ed first created his Realms, I think that may have been a bit too cerebral for a Five-year-old... even if it was a brillaint five year old like I am sure Ed was.
On the other hand, at some point, WotC did officially release that 'heresy' that Shar and Selūne were really one and the same. We had a similar heresy with Lathander/Aumanator, and we have since found out that that conspiracy was TRUE. Still, for a five year old to come up with 'crazy uber-god that has multiple personality disorder because she couldn't handle her own killing of her sister' is probably MORE far-fetched than the theory itself.
But ya' never know...
EDIT:
Or maybe I have it the wrong way around? We all wondered all these years why the ongoing fight has been between Shar and Mystryl, when it should be Shar and Selūne. Despite being so prominent 'in the beginning', and insanely relevant to the whole 'light vs darkness' dichotomy we have in FR, Selūne gets barely a mention... as if she's not even really there... 
Maybe its really Shar thats nuts, dancing around in her dead sister's clothes... |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 05 Feb 2017 03:07:57 |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11695 Posts |
Posted - 05 Feb 2017 : 03:15:13
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| Actually, on the "dragonlaser" (and yes, I agree, we really need another name for that.... I'm kind of irritated using it) making the moonsea.... IF a chunk of the moon were to come in at say an angle, hitting the edge of the inner sea and creating a "rut" in the earth and then ultimately ended in the moonsea. This "rut" or "trench" in the earth could very well be the "dragonreach". Maybe even the "meteor" broke on impact after creating the "rut" and a smaller piece cut a smaller trench up to the "dragonsea". Maybe even there were multiple pieces of meteor that struck creating the dragonreach and moon sea. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11695 Posts |
Posted - 05 Feb 2017 : 03:38:33
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quote:
Originally posted by Wrigley
Asgorath myth tells us about him eating the sun. We know it is the same event that ended Batrachi rule and we know that meteorite swarm created Sea of the Fallen Stars from multiple lakes already in the area. It also created Seven Turn Winter - seven years long darkness from ash cloud. I see this "eating of sun" as poetic description of this long period of darkness.
Dragon laser - for me it was a desparate attempt by dragons to stop the Rage from destroying their empires by binding seven lost gods and use their power to break that curse. Sadly it didn't work well and those lost gods broke free. The hills around Westgate are remnant of this ritual.
Actually the draconomicon myth wasn't about eating the crystal sun, it was that "breathing her breath into it" and then the crystal sun "burst". Its almost like it was a mating ritual between Asgorath/Asgoroth the world shaper and "the ice moon Zotha" or the "crystal sun created by Zotha". I wonder if it WAS a sexual act, was it an act of rape? I also note, Asgorath/Asgoroth is portrayed as a woman whereas Io is portrayed as male (he is the "father" of Tiamat). Not saying they aren't the same entity, just noting it is an interesting "thing".
"Asgorath bent her form around the Crystal Sun, and touched her breath to it. And the Crystal Sun burst into fragments that pierced the flesh of Asgorath, and her blood fell on the World. Where the drops fell, the Powers of the World and the Powers of the Crystal Sun came together, and the Spawn of Asgorath came forth upon the face of the World."
Kind of makes me wonder the actual relationship between Ao / Io and the real reason for splitting the world... was it actually to separate dawn titans and gods? Or was it something to get the more powerful dragons out of Toril. OR was it that this "bursting" of the "egg" that was the ice moon/crystal sun actually BIRTHED another world. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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KanzenAU
Senior Scribe
Australia
763 Posts |
Posted - 05 Feb 2017 : 04:38:26
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
No, except for a conversation with Ed (in his thread here), and the story that is the 2e Player's Guide to the Forgotten Realms - which has the party travel toward the Moonsea in search of the 'fallen tear', but then beyond it (as I said, I assume it landed in the Great Glacier, which, if the story did happen a few centuries before 1e, then that could have been part of the reason why the icecap melted). The thing with Ed was something about why the name changed from The Dragon Sea to The Moonsea, but that was very long time ago, when I was trying to track-down every instance of 'Star' or 'Moon' in every FR name. He had also made a rather cryptic comment somewhere about "the greatest secret of the Realms has been staring everyone in the face all along".
I went over the 2e Player's Guide, as far as I can tell that depicts a Tear landing in Thar and later being carried to Vaasa. As far as the Ed thread goes, my search-fu has failed me unfortunately. 
I did however turn up from this thread that lots of the Tears have fallen over the years. However, no mention of them causing widespread damage when they fell or inducing climate-changing conditions.
The Moonsea could have been created by the Tearfall/Asgorath/batrachi event along with the Sea of Fallen Stars though. We know it was around as far back at least as far -24,500 from the GHotR, so who knows. As for me, I don't think there's enough lore out there to say that it was caused by any specific event, so I'm going to assume there wasn't a mass climate change event involved with it (outside of the Tearfall). There may very well be a grand secret out there, but without knowing... |
Regional maps for Waterdeep, Triboar, Ardeep Forest, and Cormyr on DM's Guild, plus a campaign sized map for the North |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 05 Feb 2017 : 06:24:38
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Yeah, I haven't re-read that book in quite some time - I just recall them heading that way, and then going a bit further.
I like the idea of one event creating BOTH seas - that hadn't occurred to me. Then, if we later had a(nother?) 'melting event', and the seas grew in size (by at least 50-100 miles), that could explain a LOT, even the legendary 'Kingdom of Giants' that supposedly existed in the sea of Fallen Stars. (The islands would all be one large land-mass).
Could it be possible that the the Polar Ice has been melting ever since the first Sundering? (when the Ice Moon fell/burst/whatever). Hmmmm... Ice Moon... melting ice... I am missing a piece somewhere...
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
Actually, on the "dragonlaser" (and yes, I agree, we really need another name for that.... I'm kind of irritated using it) making the moonsea.... IF a chunk of the moon were to come in at say an angle, hitting the edge of the inner sea and creating a "rut" in the earth and then ultimately ended in the moonsea. This "rut" or "trench" in the earth could very well be the "dragonreach". Maybe even the "meteor" broke on impact after creating the "rut" and a smaller piece cut a smaller trench up to the "dragonsea". Maybe even there were multiple pieces of meteor that struck creating the dragonreach and moon sea.
We were just calling it the 'Dracolaser', but thats not much better. The Dracobeam? Dacolumin? Dracolight? Wurrminator? The Photonic Anihilator? LOL
Yeah, I'm definitely leaning toward smaller seas (and probably NOT connected back then), and then something made the sea levels rise, and now we have the current situation. But instead of different events, all one event affecting everything - Occam's Razor.
Its kinda funny - in 4e, the sea levels in those seas was supposed to drop by about fifty miles of coast - very close to how I am picturing them originally being. Now, the designers at that time said they had based all of their decisions on some 'panic button' Ed had built into the Realms - some sort of 'doomsday switch' that no-one was ever supposed to actually use. Its too bad they never actually drew the 4e maps with that change in coasts, because we might've gotten to see what the seas looked like immediately after the sundering, before all that arctic ice melted.
Perhaps it would have revealed too much? Maybe thats why it was never shown? Hmmmmm...
The Vilhon Reach was also created artificially, and that drowned Jhaamdath, so that 'arm' would not have been there as well (although there is DEFINITELY something 'funny' about the Arkanamere (Arkana?  ). Also the Highstar Lake (Lake Evendusk) in the High Moor has similar oddities (something 'at the bottom'), so a lot of other bodies of wate could be where pieces of the 'Ice Moon' fell.
So no comment on my 'crazy Shar/crazy Selūne theory? Maybe I should have posted that separately over in 'General Chat' - its pretty 'out there'. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 05 Feb 2017 06:29:34 |
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How does the Endless Ice Sea exist?
