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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
13403 Posts

Posted - 10 Feb 2017 :  05:13:29  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
THIS MAP is the one I have been using - it appears to have EVERYTHING on it.

My confusion comes from the fact that there appear to be TWO 'Kalton Manors' - one is in the Fens, and labeled 'Renefik'.

Anyhow, got very little done physically on the map - as soon as I got into labeling stuff I went into 'research mode' which slows me down tremendously. Fortunately, you saved me a lot of time with your answers.

Oh, and I have a 'fix' for Pelor (there is actually a picture of Pelor worshiper in a canon FR source). It has to do with the NERATH (North-East Realms Alliance Treaty Homesteading) Program put forth by the Lord's Alliance, and the Greyhawk Wars... and the real Khelben Arunsun.

EDIT:
Is Vanamere's Tower the same as the 'Ghost Tower'?

Thanks for those other locations, BTW - you actually helped me solve a little problem. Baron's Hill wouldn't happen to be near a river, would it?

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 10 Feb 2017 05:42:29
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Zeromaru X
Learned Scribe

Colombia
243 Posts

Posted - 10 Feb 2017 :  15:35:22  Show Profile Send Zeromaru X a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I see. I didn't have this one. It seems accurate, but don't have some villages/towns there. You can use that map in conjunction with this one. That's the map the guys in the WotC forums did before the forums died.

To the questions:

There is only one Kalton Manor. Maybe the guy who did the map got it wrong there. Renefik, as said before, is the Ren halfling enclave.

Vanamere's Tower is different from the Ghost Tower of the Witchlight Fens. Vanamere's was the tower built by the wizard elf Vanamere and her husband to retire when the husband was old (he was human), and later was destroyed by a band of goblins from the Harken Forest. Is not technically in the Fens, is near the Cloak Wood.

While the Ghost Tower is in the Fens, near Kalton Manor (that's why the map I posted replaced the Manor with the Tower, but that is not accurate: according to the adventure the Tower is near the Manor -to the north-, not in the Manor).

The adventure in Baron's Hill don't mention any major river. However, it mentions a major road nearby. The only major roads in the Vale are the King's Road and the Trade Road.

Noteworthy detail: there are Hounds of Ill-Omen in the vicinity. Those undead dogs are usually spotted in the Gray Downs/Gardbury Downs area (legend says those are the dogs of the original barbarians tribes who lived in the Nentir Vale before the Nerathi-I mean, Waterdavians wiped them out). When I used Baron's Hill in my campaign, we were playing the Madness at Gardmore Abbey adventure, and I used the village as a base of operations for my players. I located it to the south of the Abbey, near the King's Road in the southern part of the Gardbury Downs, because of the Hounds activity.

The maps also don't mention another town: Duponde. That's the town were Evard the Black lived (again, this Evard is the same from Greyhawk. The adventure does not explain why or how the guy was living in the Nentir Vale world). When he leaved the NV world, he faked his death and there is a tomb of him in Duponde because of that.

The Dark Legacy of Evard adventure has contradictory info about the location of Duponde. According to the adventure, the town should be located where the White River and the King's Road intersect, near (or replacing) Albrigde. However, that contradicts references to Duponde being on the Nentir River and to Duponde being a few days north of Harkenwold.

Since we played Reavers of Harkenwold and I never put Duponde in the map for that adventure, I used the references to locate Duponde in my map: near the Nentir River, south to Fallcrest.

Toward the cobalt, there is a shining Earth. That is where sadness begins. All that we love is returning there...

Edited by - Zeromaru X on 10 Feb 2017 16:02:06
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
13403 Posts

Posted - 10 Feb 2017 :  18:18:28  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
WOW, great info!

I'll place Baron's Hill as you did. I'll use Duponde for that other thing I needed (and your placement for that is also perfect). I moved Fallcrest slightly north to the Fork of the river, because the roads weren't making sense (once they were combined with the FR roads). In that way, both the FR and NV road network is still very close to what it was (and Fallcrest actually makes FAR more sense in that spot - its supposed to have a tributary river joining the Nentir River within it). Thus, Duponde gets to go where Fallcrest used to be.

What are Daggerburg and Kiris Dahn? I'm assuming they're both settlements, but what sizes?

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone

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Zeromaru X
Learned Scribe

Colombia
243 Posts

Posted - 10 Feb 2017 :  20:58:32  Show Profile Send Zeromaru X a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Daggerburg is a fortress, the headquarters of the Daggerburg goblin tribe. In NV canon is was an ancient fortress of Bael Turath*.

Kiris Dahn used to be a town ruled by the Kiris noble family. In NV canon, when the Empire of Nerath fell, Kiris Dahn survived all the demonic, orc, giants, goblins invasions because it has the "killer stones", magic stones that can kill any creature regardless of nature and powers (and mechanically, regardless of level as well). Those stones were created by tieflings descendants of the great wizards of Bael Turath*, and had a side effect: corrupted those who used them (like most of the creations of that fallen empire, really). Fear of both the powers and the curse of the stones keep all but only the fools from conquer the town until "all" the stones were expended (8 years before the current year the adventure that depicted the town takes place). The Kiris family was unpopular and the people left the town instead of defending it when a band of hobgoblins show up to conquer it. The town was overrun, conquered and defiled by the hobgoblins and renamed Gorizbadd. There are a few orcs and a tribe of kobolds in Gorizbadd, too, and currently the "town" is the battlefield of the three factions' civil war.

Not all the stones were expended, however. There is a bronze dragon living in a cave near the town that safeguards the last one so no one could use it (she is unable to destroy it, only the Kiris family knew how to do it). Of the Kiris family, only one guy survived and now lives in Fallcrest (and there is another, but the guy lives in the slums of Gorizbadd and fakes his death because he doesn't want people to know he is a wererat).

*I guess we can change Bael Turath for Netheril, in this conversion. Both were magical adept empires. Both are almost alike, worshiping evil gods and corrupting people and stuff. Almost, I say, because in NV canon it was the rival empire, Arkhosia (dragonborn empire), the one with the flying cities.

Toward the cobalt, there is a shining Earth. That is where sadness begins. All that we love is returning there...

Edited by - Zeromaru X on 10 Feb 2017 21:12:42
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Markustay
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USA
13403 Posts

Posted - 10 Feb 2017 :  23:08:40  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
More great info! You're being a huge help!

It might be better to say Bael Turath was a northern outpost of Ebenfar, time (and flavor)-wise. I'll have to see what fits the expanded timeline best. I'll work Arkhosia in as well (blame it on the Spellplague).

I just realized I didn't really leave enough room for the Chaos Scar, which is kind of a big deal.

Plus, there are two settlements near it, and I was placing Phandalin right around there. I have to rethink that small area. I don't want to have to re-do the forests again.

Otherwise, though, making good progress. I should have something today.

EDIT: Size of Timbervale? Any info? I hadn't known about this before (you linked to that map), and now it falls out right on top of Thundertree (FR).

EDIT2: And Bedlam - I recall reading about Bedlam a long time ago (when 4e was at its peak), but now I can't seem to find anything about it.

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 10 Feb 2017 23:31:45
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Zeromaru X
Learned Scribe

Colombia
243 Posts

Posted - 11 Feb 2017 :  01:35:19  Show Profile Send Zeromaru X a Private Message  Reply with Quote
In what sources can I find lore about Ebenfar?

Bedlam is a non-canon town the guys of the WotC forums made as a sort of base of operations for people exploring the Chaos Scar. That was before WotC made the Keep on the Borderlands 4e adventures and added Restwell Keep as the canon base of operations for the Chaos Scar. In my home campaign I left Badlam out of my Vale, because I didn't have any info about it. And sadly, all info about Bedlam died with the WotC forums (unless someone made a backup).

There is no much info about Timbervale. Is a small village near the orc-infested Stonefang Pass, and serves as a trade hub for merchants passing in and out the Nentir Vale.

About Arkhosia, I have plans for transplanting it to my Realms as well. Thanks to the Spellplague and Abeir, we can left practically the same as it is in NV canon. We can just say it was an old empire of Abeir that existed in another continent different to Laerakond —maybe Shyr, or just another continent—, where good dragons lived (contrary to the evil dragons of Laerakond) and treated the dragonborn as people instead as slaves. Many slaves fled from the Shyran and Larea...kondian(?) nations, and Arkhosia was found during the Rule of Dragons period. However, it eventually fell because the evil dragons banded together and destroyed it to get new slaves (and beacuse they hated good dragons). This can also serve to explain the contradictory lore about dragonborn WotC published in SCAG (really, they just copy pasted Arkhosian stuff from 4e, instead of stuff about FR dragonborn).

Tymantheran dragonborn know next to nothing about Arkhosia, because Tymanchebar was located in Laerakond, far from the older Arkhosian territories. And all the Arkhosian ruins that dot the Nentir Vale (and even other regions of Sword Coast North) came to Toril during the Spellplague. This can be used to transplant Ustraternes and Io'vanthor ruins to the Realms as well.

Toward the cobalt, there is a shining Earth. That is where sadness begins. All that we love is returning there...

Edited by - Zeromaru X on 11 Feb 2017 01:49:14
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
13403 Posts

Posted - 11 Feb 2017 :  06:29:12  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Ebenfar is mostly 'detailed' (if you could call it that) in the novel Crypt of the Shadowking. Its basically a 'shadowy/evil' empire/kingdom that didn't last all that long, so the same vibe as the Netherese Shades, but I think it might be both closer physically (albeit still a ways off) and temporally (once again, not sure on that - still fairly far back in the timeline, but some 400 years 'newer' than Netheril). There is a little bit of its history HERE, as it interacted with Najara. I can definitely see The Shadowking having tieflings in his employ (and it lore-lite enough for it to work without ruffling feathers). In fact, a group of his tiefling lieutenants could have fled north after his death, creating Bael Torath.

Or we could just shoe-horn a Bael Torath into The Realms unrelated to anything else, or we could also connect it to Stornanter, which is closer both physically and chronologically, but that was before Laeral 'got all ebil', so it wouldn't make much sense for evil artifacts to have come from there. Or The Hostower of the Arcane... that could work...

Yeah, keep Arkosia in Abeir, but say a lot of their ruins got swapped into NV/FR - that works perfectly.

I'll leave Bedlam out, and I have the perfect placement for Timbervale (very close to where it is on that map, but not right on top of the ruins of Thundertree) - I like to place settlements at crosswords (because historically, they did tend to spring-up at those).

I really tried to have something presentable today, but the Chaos Scar stuff tripped me up (I got to remove a couple of hills, which messes with my tree layer). I'm glad we lost Bedlam - I won't have to think as hard about Phandalin now (because it is going in that spot). Tomorrow I'll have something for sure.

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 11 Feb 2017 06:31:15
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
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Posted - 12 Feb 2017 :  05:14:45  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Its still has a long way to go (many more hills and locales, etc), but here is a snippet of the map (the finished map will be MUCH bigger).

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone

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Matrix Sorcica
Seeker

Denmark
39 Posts

Posted - 12 Feb 2017 :  10:40:30  Show Profile Send Matrix Sorcica a Private Message  Reply with Quote
It looks even better than I'd hoped for.
Really like this new style - I can see why the trees take so long.
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Zeromaru X
Learned Scribe

Colombia
243 Posts

Posted - 12 Feb 2017 :  15:37:37  Show Profile Send Zeromaru X a Private Message  Reply with Quote
You're right, the spot really fits.

Toward the cobalt, there is a shining Earth. That is where sadness begins. All that we love is returning there...
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
13403 Posts

Posted - 12 Feb 2017 :  17:22:55  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Thanks guys. The trees are actually generated in s separate program called 'Treething' that someone over at the Cartographersguild.com created, although there is still a bunch of work involved (creating a B&W 'height map' to generate density and spread, etc, and tweaking all the trees and their shadows so they fall out behind mountains), And even with all that, I still have to go back in and shift things around (and erase some), which takes time, because those trees are actually on four layers (so each layer has to be moved and lined-up individually).

The mountains and most of the hills are from brushes I got - also at the Cartographer's Guild. So are the details in swamps/marshes. On the maps I am making for the canon Forgotten Realms, all of that will be drawn by hand, and I'll have something closer to how Mike Schley does his forests (although individual trees are very 'old-school cool', they aren't very realistic size-wise, and they get in the way of placing stuff IN the forest, like hills and locales).

I can't put a 'glow' on the labels (and sites) until the very end, because I have to drop them all onto one layer to do that in GIMP, and then I can't edit them. Photoshop is able to do that individually.

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 12 Feb 2017 21:52:16
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Zeromaru X
Learned Scribe

Colombia
243 Posts

Posted - 12 Feb 2017 :  18:03:55  Show Profile Send Zeromaru X a Private Message  Reply with Quote
You mention in DA that the maps is actually bigger that this preview. What other regions do you plan to cover in the map?

Toward the cobalt, there is a shining Earth. That is where sadness begins. All that we love is returning there...
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Matrix Sorcica
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Denmark
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Posted - 12 Feb 2017 :  19:24:13  Show Profile Send Matrix Sorcica a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Remember to include Varisia south of Daggerford

Edited by - Matrix Sorcica on 12 Feb 2017 19:24:48
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Markustay
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USA
13403 Posts

Posted - 12 Feb 2017 :  22:02:59  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Nah, Varisia is only in my Misbegotten Realms. I'll probably never get back to that now, unfortunately. But we'll see - Varisia is just one (very well covered) place in Golarion, so it might be worth fudging regardless. If anthing, it stays where I put it on my homebrew conversion - in place of {*Yawn*} Aglarond. Then I'd just say The Simbul was the 'Witch Queen of The North' (putting her in Vassa would be fun, maybe as a consort of Zhengyi... think about it. It makes some sense).

As for how far the map goes - just above Luskan, and just at the southern tip of the Mere of Dead Men, and all the way over to the edge of the High Forest to the east. Its sized to be exactly 11 x 8˝ at 300 dpi (so it prints out precisely at standard paper size). Believe it or not, we have FAR MORE settlements/locales in that one region I displayed than the entirety of the rest of the map combined (but, of course, I will also be adding-in all the Underdark locations as well). We even get half of the Evermoors on the map. I didn't show any of that because its REALLY bare - no hills or anything; just roads and settlements so far.

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 12 Feb 2017 22:04:10
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Matrix Sorcica
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Denmark
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Posted - 12 Feb 2017 :  22:18:23  Show Profile Send Matrix Sorcica a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Fair enough. Know I'm derailing the thread, but how did you merge the history of Varisia and the Sword Coast in your Misbegotten Realms? Earthfall seems to match pretty well with the end of the Crown Wars.

Been thinking that sin magic would match Bael Turath well which again would match Netheril?

I'm asking cause making this fit together would allow using the Pathfinder adventure paths and the Nentir Vale without too much hassle.

Edited by - Matrix Sorcica on 12 Feb 2017 22:22:01
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
13403 Posts

Posted - 13 Feb 2017 :  03:59:51  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I'm pretty sure at this point I'm going to have Bael Turath be a 'survivor state' of Ebenfar (mostly because Ebenfar doesn't have a lot of lore about it, and we can say The Shadowking had a batch of Tiefling lieutenants most folks have forgotten about). Netheril just has too much attached to it at this point to keep adding more stuff on, IMHO.

Varisia only work on the Sword Coast when I moved the entire Sword Coast over into the Unapproachable East. Thus, Varisia would stay there, but the rest is back where it started (not that I would run it that way, but I'm not even running a FRPG ATM). This project is actually going to wind-up on the DM's Guild, mostly because I think a LOT of folks would find it useful. I can do that, because both settings are WotC (and as I hinted at earlier, i am actually going to use Greyhawk lore for some of it as well, which is another WotC IP). Using Paizo material is already 'iffy' - I've been getting away with using whatever I want just because its all 'fan works'. Once it goes on the DM's Guild, it HAS TO BE PURE WotC.

However, there is a new town in Nentir Vale - a little location north of Fallcrest right on the river called Falcon's Rest, and its eerily similar to Falcon's Hollow.

Eventually, when I get back to my main FR project and get down to the Chult region, I did a conversion of it and the Razor Coast that I WILL post somewhere. Its not Paizo (just PF-compatible), and its meant to be a "add to any campaign world" kind of product (so I really doubt Frog God Games would get upset about FR fans buying their product). Its an insanely good fit, and makes a fairly lackluster area really exciting. Freakin' Weresharks! (just don't add the dracolaser to their heads!)

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 13 Feb 2017 04:02:03
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Matrix Sorcica
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Denmark
39 Posts

Posted - 13 Feb 2017 :  09:46:55  Show Profile Send Matrix Sorcica a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Thanks.

I'm pretty sure only FR and Ravenloft IP is open for use at DM's Guild at this time.
http://support.dmsguild.com/hc/en-us/articles/217029298-Content-and-Format-Questions
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
13403 Posts

Posted - 13 Feb 2017 :  16:11:46  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Well then, I'll just have to make them change that.

After all, this project IS FR (NV is just becoming part of it), and as for the GH stuff, well, I plan to use a connection thats already established... IN FR canon.

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone

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Zeromaru X
Learned Scribe

Colombia
243 Posts

Posted - 13 Feb 2017 :  16:45:16  Show Profile Send Zeromaru X a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Is the "Nentir Vale" IP (if such thing exist) open for use at DM's Guild?

Toward the cobalt, there is a shining Earth. That is where sadness begins. All that we love is returning there...
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
13403 Posts

Posted - 13 Feb 2017 :  18:12:03  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I had thought the DM's Guild was FR-specific, but Matrix Sorcica above said it includes Ravenloft, which I did not know (but technically, since RL is now - as of 4e - IN the Shadowfell, and the Shadowfell IS part of FR...)

Which is why I think a 'NV in FR' thing would be acceptable to them. I'm approaching the GH stuff with a 'light touch' - more along the lines of why we have certain 'Core' things in FR now (and since I was originally a Greyhawk fan, I also know that setting fairly well), and do it in such a way that it makes perfect sense to all settings involved.

Khelben, of course, is the KEY.

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone

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Zeromaru X
Learned Scribe

Colombia
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Posted - 13 Feb 2017 :  19:20:53  Show Profile Send Zeromaru X a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I was asking because of this:

"For now, at least, DMs Guild is limited to the Forgotten Realms and Ravenloft settings only, although you can also publish anything for 5th Edition that (i) is generic enough to be used in a permitted setting without effort and (ii) doesn’t explicitly use anything related to another official Wizards setting.

For example, you can mention Forgotten Realms deities or even say something like “Azuth, Mystra, or another god of magic in your setting,” but you can’t mention Boccob, Vecna, or Aureon, Lunitari, or any other god or goddess from another official D&D setting that hasn't been permitted here."

That would that mean you cannot use names such as Nentir Vale or Fallcrest in a DM's Guild product. Or that is how I interpret this rule.

Toward the cobalt, there is a shining Earth. That is where sadness begins. All that we love is returning there...
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
13403 Posts

Posted - 13 Feb 2017 :  20:04:01  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Interesting.

I would hazard to guess that would be because they are thinking about licensing those settings, otherwise, why disallow them completely? Especially stuff that was 'core' just one edition ago. Or perhaps they are hoping their FR movie project takes off, and people will be able to us the DM's guild as a resource connected to that, and they don't want any confusion regarding 'other worlds' (which leads me to believe the Shadowfell will be involved in the movie... maybe).

EDIT:
Vecna is part of Ravenloft canon now, so he is probably usable. Not being able to touch the other gods (I was going to use Wee Jas, who is friends with Mystra in Planescape canon.)

Planescape also becomes tricky - it has The Great Wheel, and so does GH, but FR had it as well in 1e/2e, which makes it FR canon.

I may have to leave some of the merged history bits in a separate 'fan work' thing, which is annoying. Also, if they wouldn't accept the map itself, well, there goes everything. We'll see how it goes.

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 13 Feb 2017 20:15:41
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Markustay
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USA
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Posted - 13 Feb 2017 :  21:09:45  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
*Heh*

I figured it out. "If you can't dazzle them with brilliance, baffle them with bulls**t."

Nerath isn't a planet, Nerath was an empire on a planet. The planet was never named. So what do we know about the world nerath/NV is part of? Well, it appears to be some sort of 'cosmic storage facility' for large swaths of territory displaced from other worlds (most likely by magical/deific cosmic catastrophes).

So, aside from Ravenloft (which we know a lot about), what other world have we heard of - but know very little about - that appears to be some sort 'temporary storage world' for bits and pieces of other things?

A land that had dragon rulers and dragonborn empires? A place where it looked like just about everything imaginable got all mashed-up together?

Abeir.

I ascertain the Nerath and Nentir Vale has been part of FR all along - its just a small part of a continent on the psuedo-world that was created after The Sundering/Dawn War. In fact, I would even go so far as to say Nerath was located in Laerakond - note that The map of Nerath would fit nicely in upper Returned Abeir - the part of that continent we know very little about.

Other continents would include Athas, The Council of Wyrms setting, and possibly Cerilia (Birthright) and Ansalon (its dragony nature is a good fit, but because it one of the the three prime settings for a time, it may not be a good fit history/lore-wise). And, of course, its the homeworld of the Saurials (who got separated from their Sarrukh cousins when the worlds were split asunder). And the Abber nomads from RL.

Did Abeir have elves/drow? Maybe the drow called their world 'Threnody' (perhaps a hollow-Earth type of situation?)

Thus, everything is FR and everything is allowed.

No Eberron... Eberron SMELLS. Except for Xendrik... we'll take Xendrik... maybe Sarlona... Sarlona can go to Abeir... but the rest of Eberron is a big, stinky doo-doo head...

Sorry... I haven't taken my meds today.

I have a question: Whats a known assassin's organization in Nentir Vale?

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 13 Feb 2017 21:22:51
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
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Posted - 14 Feb 2017 :  02:55:46  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Ansalon doesn't work as well, because we know of at least one distant continent that isn't on one of the other worlds. Plus, Krynn is accessible by spelljammer.

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KanzenAU
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Australia
612 Posts

Posted - 14 Feb 2017 :  03:15:56  Show Profile Send KanzenAU a Private Message  Reply with Quote
They're making more settings available on the DM's Guild as they become adventure relevant. For example, Ravenloft became available because of Curse of Strahd. I don't think they're likely to ever have a Nerath-world publication again, so I would guess if you tie it into FR they would let it slip through. You could always email them to ask though. I'm guessing Greyhawk won't be far away with the subtle mentions it's been getting.

Regional maps for Waterdeep, Triboar, Ardeep Forest, and Cormyr on DM's Guild, plus a campaign sized map for the North
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