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Copper Elven Vampire
Senior Scribe

375 Posts

Posted - 16 Dec 2016 :  18:44:16  Show Profile Send Copper Elven Vampire a Private Message  Reply with Quote  Delete Topic
A PC is asking me if it's possible to get rid of the separate spell table and list and replace it with half spell progression of existing divine class. Would any of you DMs' allow that?

Thank you,
CEV

Diffan
Great Reader

USA
3434 Posts

Posted - 17 Dec 2016 :  13:42:32  Show Profile Send Diffan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I'd allow it. I mean the class is a specialist cleric so it makes sense that they would continue to progress in their normal spellcasting progression.

4E Realms = Great Taste, Less Filling.

"If WotC were to put out a box of free money, people would still complain how it was folded."
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Copper Elven Vampire
Senior Scribe

375 Posts

Posted - 17 Dec 2016 :  20:44:51  Show Profile Send Copper Elven Vampire a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Diffan

I'd allow it. I mean the class is a specialist cleric so it makes sense that they would continue to progress in their normal spellcasting progression.

Do you think full or half progression?
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
14555 Posts

Posted - 17 Dec 2016 :  20:51:23  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
You should probably keep it at half for balance, otherwise you are giving the 'perks' without any of the downside.

But its YOUR game, so whatever you think works best.

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone

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Copper Elven Vampire
Senior Scribe

375 Posts

Posted - 17 Dec 2016 :  21:04:04  Show Profile Send Copper Elven Vampire a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

You should probably keep it at half for balance, otherwise you are giving the 'perks' without any of the downside.

But its YOUR game, so whatever you think works best.

That's what I was personally thinking, but I had to see what others would allow and such. Thanks.
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Diffan
Great Reader

USA
3434 Posts

Posted - 18 Dec 2016 :  17:52:28  Show Profile Send Diffan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
As far as full or half progression, it largely depends on a few things. First are Prestige Classes allowed or considered from other supplements? It's no secret that WotC made some pretty significantly powerful Prestige Classes towards the last 2 years leading up to 4e that are overall better than ones released early on 3e's creation. Most of the early stuff is just simply underpowered compared to the full options created.

Besides there's other alternatives to half or full caster, you can do with something like 7/10 or even 6/10 casting instead. I guess you have to look at the class features and other benefits to figure it out. Looking at the PrC we have 1 good save (not as good as the cleric) but full BAB (better than the cleric but obsolete after 12th level or so) and the same Hit Die (d8). I dunno but 1/2 caster seems a bit too underwhelming. I'd go for 7/10 spellcasting, that way you're still restricting 9th level spells until 20th level instead of 17th

4E Realms = Great Taste, Less Filling.

"If WotC were to put out a box of free money, people would still complain how it was folded."
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LordofBones
Senior Scribe

441 Posts

Posted - 25 Dec 2016 :  04:31:08  Show Profile Send LordofBones a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I'd just give them 7/10 casting and let them add their class level to their cleric level for the purposes of channeling positive energy against undead.
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Copper Elven Vampire
Senior Scribe

375 Posts

Posted - 25 Dec 2016 :  21:11:27  Show Profile Send Copper Elven Vampire a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by LordofBones

I'd just give them 7/10 casting and let them add their class level to their cleric level for the purposes of channeling positive energy against undead.

That sounds like a good idea to me. :)
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sleyvas
Great Reader

USA
6219 Posts

Posted - 26 Dec 2016 :  02:57:57  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
definitely not full progression. You have full fighter BAB. I'd actually go a slighter different progression than most are saying and say 1/3 progression, but starting at 1st level (so 1st, 4th, 7th, 10th). This makes it such that the person doesn't just dip the class. In the end, 1/2 progression would give 5 levels and this would give 4, so not a huge difference... but given that the original didn't give above 4th level spells, it fits. Main thing, we don't want this to outshine the warpriest class, and this classes true death ability that "all undead slain by them are forever destroyed" is FORMIDABLE when you consider vampires, liches, ghosts, etc.... The class also gets their wisdom bonus to spells and saves from undead, which for a cleric is ALSO a huge plus. The class also gets extra turning, which gives them 4 additional turn attempts per day. Combine that with divine metamagic feat and the persistent spell feat and a cleric can boost themselves with a lot of enhancements toward their fighting capability if they have access to upper level spells (for instance, righteous might, especially with small creatures like gnomes and halflings who aren't seriously effected by increasing size to medium, but even medium creatures only go to large... divine power... Visage of the Deity... spiritual guardian... righteous wrath of the faithful... Positive Energy Aura... recitation... prayer... bless... divine favor... ). Thus by letting them get only 4 of 10 spell level progressions, you limit them to at most 7th level spells until they become epic. I would add one thing to the prestige class though... it seems stupid to me that the hunter of the dead doesn't have something to combine his turn undead levels with any other class that allows turn undead. A cleric of the red knight with this variation of the hunter of the dead prestige class could be very formidable. Throw in 2 levels of paladin for the divine grace and you have a very formidable warrior with some decent spellcasting (say a max of 6th level spells... but they're all good cleric spells).

Note, on the idea of dipping paladin 2 levels, it could be worth it to also rework the holy liberator from Complete Divine in a similar method (i.e. 1/3 spell progression). With 4 levels in you get divine grace, so you still only lose 2 spellcasting levels of cleric, and you could be encouraged to pursue the class a little further for the celestial companion ability. The cleric could also pursue both classes that have 1/3 spell progression (say 7 levels in hunter of undead and 4 levels of holy liberator) and with 11 levels end up with the 5 spellcaster levels that he may want instead of the 4 spellcaster levels that he would get by sticking to one.

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas

Edited by - sleyvas on 26 Dec 2016 03:52:04
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Copper Elven Vampire
Senior Scribe

375 Posts

Posted - 10 Feb 2017 :  03:40:33  Show Profile Send Copper Elven Vampire a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas

definitely not full progression. You have full fighter BAB. I'd actually go a slighter different progression than most are saying and say 1/3 progression, but starting at 1st level (so 1st, 4th, 7th, 10th). This makes it such that the person doesn't just dip the class. In the end, 1/2 progression would give 5 levels and this would give 4, so not a huge difference... but given that the original didn't give above 4th level spells, it fits. Main thing, we don't want this to outshine the warpriest class, and this classes true death ability that "all undead slain by them are forever destroyed" is FORMIDABLE when you consider vampires, liches, ghosts, etc.... The class also gets their wisdom bonus to spells and saves from undead, which for a cleric is ALSO a huge plus. The class also gets extra turning, which gives them 4 additional turn attempts per day. Combine that with divine metamagic feat and the persistent spell feat and a cleric can boost themselves with a lot of enhancements toward their fighting capability if they have access to upper level spells (for instance, righteous might, especially with small creatures like gnomes and halflings who aren't seriously effected by increasing size to medium, but even medium creatures only go to large... divine power... Visage of the Deity... spiritual guardian... righteous wrath of the faithful... Positive Energy Aura... recitation... prayer... bless... divine favor... ). Thus by letting them get only 4 of 10 spell level progressions, you limit them to at most 7th level spells until they become epic. I would add one thing to the prestige class though... it seems stupid to me that the hunter of the dead doesn't have something to combine his turn undead levels with any other class that allows turn undead. A cleric of the red knight with this variation of the hunter of the dead prestige class could be very formidable. Throw in 2 levels of paladin for the divine grace and you have a very formidable warrior with some decent spellcasting (say a max of 6th level spells... but they're all good cleric spells).

Note, on the idea of dipping paladin 2 levels, it could be worth it to also rework the holy liberator from Complete Divine in a similar method (i.e. 1/3 spell progression). With 4 levels in you get divine grace, so you still only lose 2 spellcasting levels of cleric, and you could be encouraged to pursue the class a little further for the celestial companion ability. The cleric could also pursue both classes that have 1/3 spell progression (say 7 levels in hunter of undead and 4 levels of holy liberator) and with 11 levels end up with the 5 spellcaster levels that he may want instead of the 4 spellcaster levels that he would get by sticking to one.



Very interesting. I will sleep on that. Though I do like 7/10 progression, but could live with 1/2 spell progression or 5/10
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Wrigley
Senior Scribe

Czech Republic
436 Posts

Posted - 12 Feb 2017 :  10:18:41  Show Profile  Visit Wrigley's Homepage Send Wrigley a Private Message  Reply with Quote
The main issue with allowing any change for player is balance for other players. For you as a GM it is a matter of giving them a proper challenge but if one of the players have stronger character because of the changes you may have a problem at hand. So I would mainly consider the change in the light of other players characters and possibly offer them something to even it out. Or make Prestige classes something to work for and reward those players who do (end of quest). In this way it will be fun for all and the character will probably help others to archieve their quests also and you do not have to be so carefull about giving things out.

Rule wise I think that I would allow it (the ratio is up to you), just consider the original class spell list (if there is something authors wanted to be different than cleric spells).
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Copper Elven Vampire
Senior Scribe

375 Posts

Posted - 16 Feb 2017 :  14:22:18  Show Profile Send Copper Elven Vampire a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Wrigley

The main issue with allowing any change for player is balance for other players. For you as a GM it is a matter of giving them a proper challenge but if one of the players have stronger character because of the changes you may have a problem at hand. So I would mainly consider the change in the light of other players characters and possibly offer them something to even it out. Or make Prestige classes something to work for and reward those players who do (end of quest). In this way it will be fun for all and the character will probably help others to archieve their quests also and you do not have to be so carefull about giving things out.

Rule wise I think that I would allow it (the ratio is up to you), just consider the original class spell list (if there is something authors wanted to be different than cleric spells).



I agree fully. I'm going to go with 7/10 progression and figure something out with Hunter of the Dead specific spells.
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LordofBones
Senior Scribe

441 Posts

Posted - 18 Feb 2017 :  05:10:51  Show Profile Send LordofBones a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Add them as bonus spells to the base class's spell list, if the same spell appears twice, the HotD casts them at +1 caster level.
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Copper Elven Vampire
Senior Scribe

375 Posts

Posted - 18 Feb 2017 :  14:43:39  Show Profile Send Copper Elven Vampire a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by LordofBones

Add them as bonus spells to the base class's spell list, if the same spell appears twice, the HotD casts them at +1 caster level.



That is a very good idea. Thank you.
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