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sno4wy
Senior Scribe
USA
466 Posts |
 Posted - 21 Nov 2016 : 18:56:36
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I wasn't able to find a thread about this at-a-glance, and if this information has been covered already elsewhere on these forums, I apologize. I figured the insight Ed shared during Gamehole Con this year regarding the future of Forgotten Realms novels to be interesting, even if he wasn't able to share much due to NDAs and stuff.
The question about whether there will be future Forgotten Realms novels was asked both during the D&D panel with Jeremy Crawford, Mike Mearls and Chris Perkins and the TEGG panel. The WotC guys succinctly informed us that they couldn't talk about it, and while Ed did precaution about his lack of ability to discuss it at length, he did offer some information:
- There will be a story featuring Mirt going on a new adventure. I'm not sure how this story will be formally published, however, a few copies of the pre-release book was given away via raffle during Mirt's 50th Birthday celebration on the first night of the convention. The premise of the story is that Mirt, having outlived all of his acquaintances and friends in Waterdeep, finding himself surrounded by a new generation of nobles that have no idea who he is, accepts the idea of undertaking travels to distant lands that he'd never been to before.
- The TEGG will continue to put out FR material, presumably through the DMGuild. There was also something during the TEGG panel about TEGG taking submissions in the future from FR fans when they're ready to focus on areas of the Realms not covered before.
- Whether there will be future novels Ed suspects will depend heavily on how well the Forgotten Realms movie does.
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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3802 Posts |
Posted - 21 Nov 2016 : 19:03:05
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I think that the story about Mirt will be split in multiple short stories, for each of the areas that Ed is going to cover through the DMGuild. The first one should come out at the end of this month. It will be a good excuse to write short stories featuring a much wider variety of characters and places of the Realms.
Oh, and thanks for the update, sno4wy! |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 21 Nov 2016 : 20:10:30
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If they can't talk about it, there's something going on there.
WotC has farmed out stuff before, to other companies... That would be a smart move for them to do the same with novels. I suspect their lack of information there pertains to ongoing work in that area. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3802 Posts |
Posted - 21 Nov 2016 : 20:17:55
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
If they can't talk about it, there's something going on there.
WotC has farmed out stuff before, to other companies... That would be a smart move for them to do the same with novels. I suspect their lack of information there pertains to ongoing work in that area.
Just how cool would it be, if they farmed it out to Ed. |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
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Seravin
Master of Realmslore
Canada
1265 Posts |
Posted - 21 Nov 2016 : 20:28:17
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| I'd kill to have Grubb/Novak and Elaine writing again under TEGG. Also, Volo's Guide to the Moonsea (the winner of our poll on Candlekeep if I remember) needs to be a THING. |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 21 Nov 2016 : 21:47:15
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I recall a couple years back, some clever fellow was suggesting that the authors/designers should be allowed to just produce whatever struck their fancy, and that WotC should set-up some sort of 'platform' (site?) that these things could be offered, and they could split the revenue with the creatives. Thus, they could still be getting some cash-flow from an avenue that Hasbro may no longer wants to actively pursue, with little to no investment on their part, and still allow the creatives to make money and provide fans with the kinds of material they truly want. Like a 'profit sharing' paradigm.
Hmmmmm... who was that clever git who was so busy proselytizing this business model? I seem to recall it began with an 'M'...
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"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 21 Nov 2016 21:47:51 |
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Mirtek
Senior Scribe
595 Posts |
Posted - 21 Nov 2016 : 23:08:45
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
I recall a couple years back, some clever fellow was suggesting that the authors/designers should be allowed to just produce whatever struck their fancy,
I really hope not. A shared world needs management or it will get even more out of hand.
Author A blows up Waterdeep in 1493 and author B sets his story there in 1494 and it just never happened?
quote:
- Whether there will be future novels Ed suspects will depend heavily on how well the Forgotten Realms movie does.
So the future of the novels is in the hands of the people responsible for the Clash of the Titans reboot? That doesn't bode well.
Also still not having shot a single scene, not even being through with casting, that means 2018 (optimistic) before the movie is even ready to prove it's success or lack of |
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sno4wy
Senior Scribe
USA
466 Posts |
Posted - 22 Nov 2016 : 03:18:07
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Words from Ed during the con in answer to a question regarding the future of FR novels: "The real answer is: it depends on how the movie does. I'm sure that if the movie is a smash hit, you will see a little book with photos of the movie, and one sentence on a page, and then there will be the chapterbook, and then there will be a novelization. And if it's going great then there might be a line of Realms novels. But that's an if. And I'm sure that's the way Wizards of the Coast is thinking right now, even though we have not actually discussed this in so many words yet. But I cannot speak anymore because I only know about my friends, Bob and Erin and Troy, and myself and what we've written and what we've written."
Also, the fiction on the DMs Guild about Mirt is only the beginning of what will be flowing from TEGG regarding the realms. There will be fiction to come, perhaps not a WotC-endorsed novel, but there will be tales yet. Realms vignettes. |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 22 Nov 2016 : 04:17:49
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quote:
Originally posted by Mirtek
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
I recall a couple years back, some clever fellow was suggesting that the authors/designers should be allowed to just produce whatever struck their fancy,
I really hope not. A shared world needs management or it will get even more out of hand.
Author A blows up Waterdeep in 1493 and author B sets his story there in 1494 and it just never happened?
Problem is, very few people actually care about 'canon' anymore. Its a game setting, for 5e D&D. Nothing more, nothing less. It doesn't need to make sense - it just has have to have BBG's, explosions, and Phat Lewtz. 
And its not just D&D/FR - Star Trek, Star Wars, Comics etc - just about every major franchise has 'rebooted' and made the old stories apocryphal. Canon just doesn't matter anymore - the egos of the 'new writers' are all that matters. They all want to 'one-up' the last guy. There's no respect for what has gone before - its a symptom of our ailing society. Everyone wants to be the rockstar; their '10 minutes of fame'.
And since when has even FR cared all that much about canon? I can point to at least ten things off the top of my head that got 'blown to smithereens' that showed-up again in the next installment (Zhentil Keep, etc). Its funny, I just saw the new HP movie today, and my kids were annoyed at how easily the wizards just 'put everything back together' after a big battle. I guess the Realms isn't the only place where magic itself has 'jumped the shark'. Nothing really matters - tomorrow everything resets. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Gyor
Master of Realmslore
1621 Posts |
Posted - 23 Nov 2016 : 21:54:45
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| Isn't anything written by Ed Automatically Cannon until refuted? |
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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3802 Posts |
Posted - 23 Nov 2016 : 22:08:54
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| Yes, it is official. I suspect that MT meant to say that canon has lost importance, since as of late WotC themselves don't hesitate to rewrite/overwrite/ignore it as they see fit, with little regard for continuity, rather than imply that canon doesn't exist anymore. |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
Edited by - Irennan on 23 Nov 2016 22:09:37 |
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EltonRobb
Seeker
USA
66 Posts |
Posted - 24 Nov 2016 : 00:20:03
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They'd be better off if Ed can buy the FR back from WotC, if you are talking about the importance of canon lore. Not that I have problem with canon lore; I love canon lore.
But if this is important to you, best get the Forgotten Realms brand into the hands of someone who cares about it. Who better than Ed? |
Edited by - EltonRobb on 24 Nov 2016 00:21:40 |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 24 Nov 2016 : 01:01:42
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I think its too late, but it is what it is.
That doesn't mean FR couldn't be great again - after all, D&D (somehow) is having a resurgence of its own, which I certainly couldn't have predicted. But it won't be the same. Maybe the rest of you can get past a hundred year time-jump, but I know I won't. The setting I grew to love is a century in the past now. Could I grow to love the new setting? Possibly... but they'd have to start producing the kinds of products we saw in 1e/2e, and even 3e... and I think hell's going to freeze-over first.
Just my opinion, is all.
And YES, what Ed says is canon. What guys working (this week) at WotC is canon. And what some new guy they hire next week creates can over-write ALL of that, including whatever Ed writes. So long as no-one cares about 'the past' but us old-school fans, canon isn't really anything at all - its an illusion. AS I said above, we've seen it in other settings/IP's - they can throw it all out and start over whenever they feel like it (ie, '4e'), which means 'canon' isn't a real thing, AT ALL. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 24 Nov 2016 01:03:39 |
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sno4wy
Senior Scribe
USA
466 Posts |
Posted - 24 Nov 2016 : 14:42:28
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
And YES, what Ed says is canon. What guys working (this week) at WotC is canon. And what some new guy they hire next week creates can over-write ALL of that, including whatever Ed writes. So long as no-one cares about 'the past' but us old-school fans, canon isn't really anything at all - its an illusion. AS I said above, we've seen it in other settings/IP's - they can throw it all out and start over whenever they feel like it (ie, '4e'), which means 'canon' isn't a real thing, AT ALL.
But hey, at least crappy fanfiction won't ever be canon, right? XD |
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Gyor
Master of Realmslore
1621 Posts |
Posted - 24 Nov 2016 : 21:32:11
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quote:
Originally posted by Irennan
Yes, it is official. I suspect that MT meant to say that canon has lost importance, since as of late WotC themselves don't hesitate to rewrite/overwrite/ignore it as they see fit, with little regard for continuity, rather than imply that canon doesn't exist anymore.
Thank you. I wish Ed would gather a team together then and write a FRCG for 5e then, the job that WotC still has figured out it should be doing. And finish updating the pantheon, it still annoys me Sharess isn't in it. |
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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3802 Posts |
Posted - 24 Nov 2016 : 21:49:39
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| I think that sums up half the wishes of a lot of FR fans; the other half being novels. |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
Edited by - Irennan on 24 Nov 2016 21:51:16 |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 25 Nov 2016 : 03:12:34
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quote:
Originally posted by sno4wy
But hey, at least crappy fanfiction won't ever be canon, right? XD
But where does THAT line get drawn? Are you saying the published authors who write in the Realms are NOT fans? Or are you saying that fans of the Realms could never possibly write as well as someone who is already published (which is a catch-22, when you really think about)? Just about every single author who writes (regularly) in The Realms started-out writing 'fan-fic'... until something was accepted for publication.
Pretty-much the only difference between them is their published status, not any sort of contrived 'quality rating' (which is purely subjective). Everyone starts off 'a fan' before they become published. And being published isn't necessarily a sign of quality either - I've read some pretty awful published works {*cough* works with the guy who hands-out the writing assignments *cough*), and I've also read some very good 'fan works' (a friend of mine recently wrote a self-published trilogy that was at least as good as any FR book I've read).
So I'm really not so sure that fan-fic would be any worse then what we've gotten already. However, the plethora of it that could arise (if the IP were considered 'public domain') would surely guarantee some pretty awful lore, just by the percentages (and by the same token, we'd get some great lore as well).
You know what would be interesting? Doing an IP/setting by democracy - have that huge pile of 'fan-lore' to pick & choose from, and fans could vote on whether it becomes canon or not... like a contest of sorts. Not sure how something like that would work, but it would be an interesting model. 'Publishing by majority consent'. I guess we'd have to have someone (or group) that 'sifts through' the bulk of it, looking for the best. That could cause problems itself, like cronyism/nepotism. I think Paizo uses something like that with their AP's. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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sno4wy
Senior Scribe
USA
466 Posts |
Posted - 25 Nov 2016 : 15:03:48
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Well, a quality rating doesn't inherently have to be contrived. Furthermore, I wasn't saying that all fan works are inherently crappy, I was referring specifically to the ones that are, in fact, crappy. I agree that being published isn't automatically equal to being good, and I also agree that something that isn't published isn't automatically bad.
That being said, the amount of bad unpublished material out there not produced by people that had previously been published for the setting/subject, as a percentage of the total amount of unpublished fan works for any particular setting/subject, is vastly higher than the amount of bad published material as a percentage of the total amount of published material for the same setting/subject. Which is why I'm glad that the DMs Guild doesn't allow for fiction. Sure, we may lose out on some gems, but I'd rather risk that than being inundated with shit from fanfiction.net and similar sites. There seems to be a culture on those sites that encourage the bastardization of canon, a phenomenon similar to the egos of new authors situation Markustay mentioned earlier, but magnified many times over.
Sure, for those of us that love consistency in the Realms, the current situation looks grim, but it's by no means rock bottom. In my opinion, rock bottom is still a long ways down, e.g. if said "crappy fanfiction" were all included into canon. That's all I was saying. :P |
Edited by - sno4wy on 25 Nov 2016 15:06:59 |
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Wrigley
Senior Scribe
Czech Republic
605 Posts |
Posted - 25 Nov 2016 : 16:50:55
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| My best wish would be if Ed would be able to buy back the licence for FR via crowdfunding with possibility of few future books with high yeld. |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 25 Nov 2016 : 17:06:39
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@snow4wy - Gotcha. It appears we are on the same page, after all. I thought you were just throwing out the term 'fan-fic' to represent ANTHING written by fans, but you were talking about a particular type of fan-fiction, which tends to be atrocious (ie, 'Hermione & Snape lover-affair'). That stuff is more of a self-indulgent romp into a realm of 'ickyness' - usually with very poor quality writing - best left forgotten.
I think the 'fan-lore' is a step above that (usually) - more like fan-made splat books, most of which I've seen are surprisingly good (and I've even helped with a couple, like Elves of Faerūn, and the Candlekeep Compendium. One such fan-work even got published - Grand History of the Realms! I think part of the reason for this is the feedback, during the creation process - something I think the 'pros' don't really get (back in 2e/3e there was a 'CORE group' who DID look over each others work, hence why its was so good and consistent... usually). When you're friends aren't capable of pointing-out your shortcomings (especially in your WORK), then they're not really your friends at all. The internet, on the other hand, is a harsh mistress - an unrelenting taskmaster that will call you out on the slightest thing. Hence, 'fan-lore' books tend to actually be held to higher standard... out of fear.
@Wrigley - Its just not going to ever happen. No crowdfunding could ever accomplish it, because Hasbro will NEVER sell it, at any price. They'd rather just 'shelf' it forever, then have someone make it work and rise-up as a competitor of theirs. There is one way it is possible, but its a MUCH harder and more expensive method (hostile takeover), which would require Ed (or someone) to win one of those HUGE lotteries - the kind with a billion dollar pay-out.
I like to fantasize about that - winning (BIG) Megamillions - and walking into their corporate offices and have security escort them all out, like in the Michael J. Fox movie, The Secret to my Success. Just a pipe-dream, but its the only way to break FR off of Hasbro/WotC and return it to Ed. No crowdfunding is EVER going to raise that kind of crazy money.
And then, of course, I'd become the 'Willy Wonka' of toys, and we'd all live happily ever after.  |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 25 Nov 2016 17:22:10 |
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sno4wy
Senior Scribe
USA
466 Posts |
Posted - 25 Nov 2016 : 17:26:40
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
@snow4wy - Gotcha. It appears we are on the same page, after all. I thought you were just throwing out the term 'fan-fic' to represent ANTHING written by fans, but you were talking about a particular type of fan-fiction, which tends to be atrocious (ie, 'Hermione & Snape lover-affair'). That stuff is more of a self-indulgent romp into a realm of 'ickyness' - usually with very poor quality writing - best left forgotten.
YES, exactly. Also, thanks for that particular reference. If you'll excuse me, I need to find some steel wool with which to scrub my brain. ;P |
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Adhriva
Learned Scribe
USA
147 Posts |
Posted - 25 Nov 2016 : 19:04:30
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
I think the 'fan-lore' is a step above that (usually) - more like fan-made splat books, most of which I've seen are surprisingly good (and I've even helped with a couple, like Elves of Faerūn, and the Candlekeep Compendium. One such fan-work even got published - Grand History of the Realms! I think part of the reason for this is the feedback, during the creation process - something I think the 'pros' don't really get (back in 2e/3e there was a 'CORE group' who DID look over each others work, hence why its was so good and consistent... usually). When you're friends aren't capable of pointing-out your shortcomings (especially in your WORK), then they're not really your friends at all. The internet, on the other hand, is a harsh mistress - an unrelenting taskmaster that will call you out on the slightest thing. Hence, 'fan-lore' books tend to actually be held to higher standard... out of fear.
Very true. When I was working on the Eclipsed Empire project (graphic novel), before the no-narrative ruling came down from the DMGuild, I had alot of very knowledgeable folks hold my feet to the proverbial fire. The lore had to accurate, to fit every source ever written about Myth Drannor, be an intriguing addition, and so on. It ultimately resulted in me re-reading through everything and writing down any visual description as I went. Small fae children carved into the wooden decor around Myth Drannor? Yeap, even though it was only ever mentioned in half a sentence from Elminster in Myth Drannor. The fountain infront of the Coronal's throne? Check. Incorporating the visual elements from Evermeet (as best as I could identifying them) specifically into the items, fashions, and decor present around Ilsevele before she has fully grown to love Cormanthor on her own? Check. Ask THO about heraldry (Green background with white or silver tree (depending on era))? Check. It was a rather brutal research process. Massive reading and note taking, feedback from fans like Irennan and CorellonsDevout and many more, talking to some of the authors, poking highly knowledgeable hooded women.... All in all it was well worth it, and I loved it, but it was brutal at times.
You're right in that pros do forget this process once a setting becomes too large to research quickly. I wish that wasn't the case but it is. It's largely a matter of time or having the ease of another resource to draw on, like a visual library or internal wiki or whatever the case might be that serves as a quick short cut. It's one of those annoying causes of universe reboots - they want to bring in new creatives who don't have that universal awareness so it's easier to loose a big chunk of that universe.
As for the topic itself...I don't think the FR as is can be returned to Ed without a major overhaul. It makes use of a number of monsters specific to D&D and so if it stops being a D&D setting, the history and nature of the realms will have to be rewritten. It makes such a result unlikely. The best to hope for, in my personal opinion, is if the movie does well enough they want to produce FR novels again. Seeing as Wizards no longer has a publishing department and have been hiring freelancers for editing, I think there is a good chance the development of future novels might fall to other groups. |
Professional illustrator and comic book artist.
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farinal
Learned Scribe
Turkey
270 Posts |
Posted - 27 Nov 2016 : 01:05:42
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quote:
Originally posted by sno4wy
Words from Ed during the con in answer to a question regarding the future of FR novels: "The real answer is: it depends on how the movie does. I'm sure that if the movie is a smash hit, you will see a little book with photos of the movie, and one sentence on a page, and then there will be the chapterbook, and then there will be a novelization. And if it's going great then there might be a line of Realms novels. But that's an if. And I'm sure that's the way Wizards of the Coast is thinking right now, even though we have not actually discussed this in so many words yet. But I cannot speak anymore because I only know about my friends, Bob and Erin and Troy, and myself and what we've written and what we've written."
Also, the fiction on the DMs Guild about Mirt is only the beginning of what will be flowing from TEGG regarding the realms. There will be fiction to come, perhaps not a WotC-endorsed novel, but there will be tales yet. Realms vignettes.
this is depressing. we have to wait a movie to come out (god knows when or if it will be done at all) and then the novelisation of the movie to come out to see if the FR novels will be continued? was he ironic here?
how can the wotc compare a decades old series of novels with a new movie's success? |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 27 Nov 2016 : 03:09:02
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
You know what would be interesting? Doing an IP/setting by democracy - have that huge pile of 'fan-lore' to pick & choose from, and fans could vote on whether it becomes canon or not... like a contest of sorts. Not sure how something like that would work, but it would be an interesting model. 'Publishing by majority consent'. I guess we'd have to have someone (or group) that 'sifts through' the bulk of it, looking for the best. That could cause problems itself, like cronyism/nepotism. I think Paizo uses something like that with their AP's.
The only issue I see with this is that some fanlore would automatically be more popular, depending on the subject matter, than other material -- regardless of the quality. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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ghilteras
Acolyte
USA
14 Posts |
Posted - 04 Mar 2017 : 00:27:59
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with dragon+ not releasing lore and with tales of yawning portal being basically a reboot of old adventures they are just killing the lore, with the novels gone no new lore will be released in 2017, I'm seriously thinking to switch to another setting for 5e or go back to pathfinder.
the real problem here is that a DM with a job, a wife and kids does not have time to world build and decide if Talos and Gruumsh are still an aspect of the same god, if myrkul and bane are back, what happened to tyr etc. etc. (I just said the first 3 things that bug my mind, the list is endless) |
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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3802 Posts |
Posted - 04 Mar 2017 : 02:28:45
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quote:
Originally posted by ghilteras
the real problem here is that a DM with a job, a wife and kids does not have time to world build and decide if Talos and Gruumsh are still an aspect of the same god, if myrkul and bane are back, what happened to tyr etc. etc. (I just said the first 3 things that bug my mind, the list is endless)
The answer to that is in the Sword Coast Adventurer's Guide. Yes, they're all back--they even redistributed portfolios to make them fit in. What hasn't been specified is how they came back (I mean, beyond "Ao started the Sundering and every god was resurrected"), and what that implies, so I get where you're coming from.
Although they won't likely ever release those answers, and I can kinda get why (they didn't want to impose too much lore on new players, so they just provided the status quo of the setting). |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
Edited by - Irennan on 04 Mar 2017 02:31:43 |
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ghilteras
Acolyte
USA
14 Posts |
Posted - 06 Mar 2017 : 20:47:53
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I own SCAG, there is no answer to anything there. The reason why I think it's the worst setting book ever published is because it's only aimed to new players that dont know anything about FR.
SCAG just offers generic descriptions about the deities. You won't find anything about the current status of Cyric under his description, is he still banished? How do you handle his poirtfolios with Bhaal and Mask coming back? There is no mention to how Helm died slain by Tyr, or how Tyr died in a blaze of glory. New players just read the book and have the impression that this is a new world, with fresh booted gods where lore is optional because you are supposed to buy the official adventures which provides with everything you need to know.
The portfolios are redundant and unclear, we have 3 gods of dead now, Kelemvor the official one, but Jergal is still listed although nobody knows what he is doing and now Myrkul is back.. Same with Helm Torm and Tyr (bahamut, hoar too) for the justice portfolio. They are really redundant and their overlapping was addressed in 4e, now they are back being all alive and well and things could not be more confusing. At least in previous editions you could fix the overlapping with ranks and have the lesser gods being like agents or minions of the greater gods, but now in case you did not notice there is no concept of rank anymore. Before you knew that the more followers a god had the more powerful he was right? But Ao rewrote the tablets of fate so who knows what the rules are now? It's up to the DMs I guess (again!).
Don't get me wrong world building is fun, but it's not something you should be forced do as DM. I mean yes a lot of us have passion and free time to do it, but it should not be mandatory. Besides even if I wanted I simply dont have enough time to fix the hundreds of gaps left in the FR lore.. You would expect the wizards to address this eventually, but it looks like the other way around, I explained my point of view here -> http://forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=21576
I don't want to hijack every thread with my rants so I'll try to shut up and keep my whining confined to only one place :) |
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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3802 Posts |
Posted - 06 Mar 2017 : 23:36:04
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quote:
Originally posted by ghilteras
I own SCAG, there is no answer to anything there. The reason why I think it's the worst setting book ever published is because it's only aimed to new players that dont know anything about FR.
SCAG just offers generic descriptions about the deities. You won't find anything about the current status of Cyric under his description, is he still banished? How do you handle his poirtfolios with Bhaal and Mask coming back? There is no mention to how Helm died slain by Tyr, or how Tyr died in a blaze of glory. New players just read the book and have the impression that this is a new world, with fresh booted gods where lore is optional because you are supposed to buy the official adventures which provides with everything you need to know.
The portfolios are redundant and unclear, we have 3 gods of dead now, Kelemvor the official one, but Jergal is still listed although nobody knows what he is doing and now Myrkul is back.. Same with Helm Torm and Tyr (bahamut, hoar too) for the justice portfolio. They are really redundant and their overlapping was addressed in 4e, now they are back being all alive and well and things could not be more confusing.
Myrkul is the current deity of death and decay, Kelemvor is the current deity of dead, and Jergal is Kelemvor's scribe, who keeps record of the dead and aids in judgement. Bhaal is the god of murder. Cyric is the deity of lies and strife, Mask is the deity of thievery and thieves, and Leira the goddess of illusions.
Tyr is a deity of justice (meant as in adherence to the law, he is in fact a god of judges); Torm stands for duty and loyalty, Helm stands for vigilance (so there's only some overlapping between Torm and Helm, that's true). Hoar is a deity of revenge and poetic justice, more than of justice itself.
All of that is in the SCAG (that's why I said that they even rearranged the portfolios to make things fit). It's true that past events regarding the deities are not described, or only quickly mentioned, but that's the general approach of the book, providing a status quo of the setting: which gods are currently active, some relevant NPCs, the current state of the Sword Coast (and--very briefly--of the Realms as a whole), how the situation is now. It's indeed aimed to newcomers, but that's not a bad thing (and that's the approach that 4e should have taken IMO, rather than blowing up stuff and then eating a huge backlash for that), and it doesn't exclude a deeper treatment (WotC's new policy does). Ofc, it sucks for us who want explanations--and I really, really do--but the SCAG isn't a bad book per se.
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At least in previous editions you could fix the overlapping with ranks and have the lesser gods being like agents or minions of the greater gods, but now in case you did not notice there is no concept of rank anymore. Before you knew that the more followers a god had the more powerful he was right? But Ao rewrote the tablets of fate so who knows what the rules are now? It's up to the DMs I guess (again!).
The rule's still there. In fact, the rule was there while the Tablets of Fate no longer existed (Ao had grounded them to dust after the Tot). He rewrote the Tablets to set in stone the various gods' portfolios (that supposedly was what brought so many of them back to life) and separate Abeir and Toril.
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Don't get me wrong world building is fun, but it's not something you should be forced do as DM. I mean yes a lot of us have passion and free time to do it, but it should not be mandatory. Besides even if I wanted I simply dont have enough time to fix the hundreds of gaps left in the FR lore.. You would expect the wizards to address this eventually, but it looks like the other way around, I explained my point of view here -> http://forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=21576
I don't want to hijack every thread with my rants so I'll try to shut up and keep my whining confined to only one place :)
Don't get me wrong as well, I totally share your disappointment about how things currently look like. I want the stories behind the return of the various gods, continents, and chatacters, and better explanations too. Sadly, I really doubt that we'll get them  |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
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ghilteras
Acolyte
USA
14 Posts |
Posted - 07 Mar 2017 : 01:04:10
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quote:
Originally posted by Irennan
Myrkul is the current deity of death and decay, Kelemvor is the current deity of dead, and Jergal is Kelemvor's scribe, who keeps record of the dead and aids in judgement. Bhaal is the god of murder. Cyric is the deity of lies and strife, Mask is the deity of thievery and thieves, and Leira the goddess of illusions.
[...]
Tyr is a deity of justice (meant as in adherence to the law, he is in fact a god of judges); Torm stands for duty and loyalty, Helm stands for vigilance (so there's only some overlapping between Torm and Helm, that's true). Hoar is a deity of revenge and poetic justice, more than of justice itself.
oh well, like I said above I own SCAG and I play FR since 2nd edition. I read ~30 novels set in the realms so trust me the last thing I know is a refresher on the gods and their portfolios :D
the problem of redundancy stands right there. Enumerating the gods should just show you the magnitude of the problem and I mean that is only the tip of the iceberg. Some gods like Jergal are said to have their own priesthood and followers, but they seem to be servants of other gods, like exarchs or something? But again the ranks are gone so those are just conjectures; all part of a generic confusing that is "up to the DM" to solve. Same for all the other gods I mentioned above, whose status is unknown, making the portfolio redundancy only one of the many problems that afflict the current state of the realms.
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It's indeed aimed to newcomers, but that's not a bad thing (and that's the approach that 4e should have taken IMO, rather than blowing up stuff and then eating a huge backlash for that), and it doesn't exclude a deeper treatment (WotC's new policy does). Ofc, it sucks for us who want explanations--and I really, really do--but the SCAG isn't a bad book per se.
I don't know what you mean by the new policy of WoTC, but they already blew up stuff and ate the backlash.. Yes they are probably terrified now to make any change because they don't have somebody big like Monte Cook or Ed Greenwood to put his face on it, but leaving the work half done is indeed not bad. It's terrible :)
compare it to paizo or numenera where lore updates get on a weekly/monthly basis and you would understand what I mean and you would see the difference between a setting that is well curated and one that has been basically abandoned.
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The rule's still there. In fact, the rule was there while the Tablets of Fate no longer existed (Ao had grounded them to dust after the Tot). He rewrote the Tablets to set in stone the various gods' portfolios (that supposedly was what brought so many of them back to life) and separate Abeir and Toril.
I really don't see any rule to be honest. Nobody knows what Ao wrote on the new tables of fate or why he brought back the dead gods. I guess that's why the ranks are disappeared, because nobody knows anything anymore! Maybe there is simply no concept of ranks anymore? Up to the DM again I guess :)
The only real explanations we got were not in SCAG, but on to the Sundering saga. Thanks to the writers we know more about how Mystra, Mask and Azuth came back and few mentions about others (like Eilistraee)
It seems their work had just begun, they laid out the new layout ready to elaborate when they got their contracts cut and now they cannot write more novels..
I get that Hasbro only cares about money, but this was really the most terrible way of handling the business.. I doubt new players will come to love the realms the way we did without novels and lorebooks coming to keep their curiosity sated. I pray I am wrong and that 2017 will be a great year with tons of 5e novels, comics, videogames and whatnot. |
Edited by - ghilteras on 07 Mar 2017 19:00:51 |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 07 Mar 2017 : 01:48:02
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I'm not so sure its "the worst setting book ever publish", but I will go so far as to say I can't think of worse one, off hand. I bought it recently, and found it a total waste of money. If you are looking for a 'setting guide' (for The North), then Storm King's Thunder does a much better job (which truly isn't saying much, since just about anything would have done a better job).
The SCAG is a Player's Guide, nothing more, and practically useless to DM's. Since I don't run FR, or even D&D at this point, it was a total waste of my money (because I wanted to know about the setting, not races, classes, and a 'Cliff's Notes' refresher-course on the gods and some political groups (some of which didn't even belong there).
They're doing this 'Paizo style', which means the setting material comes in the AP's, and all the rules-specific crap (which is mostly for players) comes in the splats. I found the Tiamat thing pretty sad, but SKT was worth the money I spent. Just my 2¢ |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 07 Mar 2017 01:48:48 |
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ZeshinX
Learned Scribe
Canada
210 Posts |
Posted - 07 Mar 2017 : 03:10:03
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
They're doing this 'Paizo style', which means the setting material comes in the AP's, and all the rules-specific crap (which is mostly for players) comes in the splats. I found the Tiamat thing pretty sad, but SKT was worth the money I spent. Just my 2¢
Even Paizo still releases setting material separately from their APs (quite a bit too). A good chunk of setting material in the APs is unique to that AP (meaning it doesn't appear in any other setting book, at least for a while anyway), but there's still a great wealth of material outside of APs.
Some of the more unique setting stuff is still best found in its relevant AP (Jade Regent for Dragon Empires, mainly Minkai, for example), but overall, you have good variety, especially if APs aren't otherwise particularly useful to you, which is nice.
5e has been particularly frustrating to me, since I love the system, but strongly dislike WotC's current handling of the brand as a whole (though I commend the efforts of the handful of people dedicated to D&D at WotC). I'm glad their storyline/adventure books offer some setting info, but to me it's not good enough in that I will not spend the kind of money their asking for these things (even with Amazon's big discounts) for what amounts to scattered bits of useful (or just interesting) info. The actual adventure portion is of no use to me, since I prefer (and have the luxury of time) creating my own. |
"...because despite the best advice of those who know what they are talking about, other people insist on doing the most massively stupid things."
-Galen, technomage |
Edited by - ZeshinX on 07 Mar 2017 03:25:25 |
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Ed on the future of FR novels (from GHC 2016)
