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Markustay
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Posted - 09 Apr 2018 :  21:27:27  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
So, since I am currently over in the Old Empires (and Unther in particular), I am finding myself drawn toward the Sumerian and Babylonian pantheons. Whereas Gygax & Co. were smart enough to know that the Roman and Greek pantheons were one and the same, it seems the same wasn't said for these other two. In my recent 'internet travels' I see RipVanWormer (I am sure many of you are familiar with his body of work... he used to be a regular around here) is of the same mind as me - he felt that Planescape really dropped the ball here, by leaving them as the 1e DD manual had them - separate. And yet, after just reading that section in On Hallowed Ground, I see that book even claims they were one and the same at some point. Now, they get a little into the whole 'gods splitting and becoming other gods' thing (a fairly new concept back then), and even falsely claim this was 'the only time this has occurred' (it seems the PS 'Sages' are more clueless on this one point than Primes). Thus, its fairly easy for me to reconcile all of this within my own framework and say both sets of gods are just different aspects of even more ancient Archtypes (although the Sumerian would be much closer to the Archtype/Estelar). OHG states that whereas the Babylonian pantheon started to focus on civics (culture-building) and mortals themselves, their Sumerian counterparts continued to focus more on the natural world and the universe. They allowed this 'split' to continue among their aspects, until they had grown so far apart reabsorbing them was no longer an option (one can only assume here the Sumerians thought those avatars had become 'polluted').

The weird part is that it (OHG) states that the two pantheons are now mortal enemies, which makes little sense within our own, Forgotten Realms lore. Unless, of course, all those 'deicides' weren't reallyall done by the Orcish pantheon.
My thoughts here is that the two factions may have decided to use the Orcgate wars as a cover to settle some old scores.

Also, since On Hallowed Ground was written after our FR Old Empires lore came out, that may have (unfortunately) tipped the decision to keep BOTH pantheons within the greater Planescape lore (so rather than fix an old mistake and ignore/overwrite what OE said, they continued to let it snowball). But as I said, its fairly easy to reconcile it all with my ideas about aspects (as 'Ubertars'). The Spellplague (and whatever 'cosmic MacGuffin' was going on at the same time - the Abyssal Plague? The Empyrean Odyssey?) would be a most excellent opportunity to right this old wrong - they should just say the two pantheons finally remerged (the stronger gods fought & absorbed the weaker).

Which brings me to Ki - a goddess whom I've always liked, ever since the 1e Deities & Demigods tome came out (which was the very first D&D book I ever bought, BTW). I've always felt Mielikki and her should be the same, because their portfolios greatly overlap... not to mention one's name is completely contained within the other. OHG even states the two are close friends. But as I read the entry for Ki in OHG, It says she is trying to acquire the portfolios of the dead Enki - river & water. That makes her sound much more like FR's Eldath! And Eldath and Mielikki are also very close. So now my thoughts are that Ki is a very ancient, primal power, probably associated with the 'Elemental Sea' (primordial soup) before the Gods even had a 'world' top play with. She would be a young-seeming aspect of the Earthgoddess (Mother Nature), and her connection with Mielikki could be not unlike that between Gaea & Demeter (or even Demeter and her daughter Persephone - another name for her is 'Kore'!)

So perhaps 'Mileikki' translates in some lost language as 'step-daughter of Ki', or some-such, and Mielikki was an exarch (Chosen) of Ki who 'made good'. Any thoughts on this scenario?

It actually works better God-wise to say the opposite - that Mielikki came first, because of her broader portfolio, but if we spin it that the 'rivers & seas' are something she is now taking on, bringing her back around to be more like her original, primal portfolio (goddess of the 'primal soup'), she could just be an older power who was eclipsed by her own Exarch, and is now trying to 'rise again' by making herself more relevant to the modern era. We see something very similar going on with Mystra and Selűne - its almost as if the roles have become reversed from what they used to be (as Selűne was eclipsed by Mystra).

And interestingly enough, Enki was killed by Nergal (who I still think should have a connection to Jergal!) and another god named Anshar, the 'god of darkness'. Sounds like it might be a male aspect of Shar, no? There could be a VERY intriguing story woven in there.

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 09 Apr 2018 21:35:02
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sleyvas
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Posted - 10 Apr 2018 :  13:32:42  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
If you want to pursue this idea that Mielikki and Eldath are "related" to Ki, a good basis for that could be that both Mielikki and Eldath up until the ToT were both gods bound to the Prime Material in 1st edition (up until the ToT, which allowed the Mulan gods to leave Toril as well). Along these same lines Siamorphe "goddess of the divine right to rule" was also Toril bound.

On the idea that it wasn't just the orcish pantheon that killed the Untheric gods, IF there is a link between Kiaransalee, Ereshkigal, and the Raven Queen ... then perhaps Kiaransalee/Ereshkigal killed her "husband" Nergal up near Dun-Tharos/Narathmault (aka Bheuristahl the Hag City in my homebrew). In fact, what if Nergal was attempting to access Narathmault and free the demons bound there to help the Untheric cause against the orcs. Just to add a little more to this concept, what if there are still hags deep in Dun-Tharos /Narathmault / Bheuristahl and these "hags" worship Kiaransalee / Ereshkigal (there is a definitely link between Kiaransalee and hag like dark elves). Maybe this is WHY Nergal and his family was entombed up there. This may be an act that this goddess continually repeats (Kiaransalee killing her husband, the Raven Queen killing her husband, and Ereshkigal killing her husband). Revenge seems to be important to all these entities. Also given that one of Kiaransalee's main holdings is the acropolis of Thanatos in the Galenas (which is very nearby Narfell and Dun-Tharos/Narathmault) AND Orcus' attention on Dun-Tharos near immediately following the death of Nergal..... I would half wonder if there isn't some connection between Orcus and Nergal (the god, not the devil).... not necessarily in the "they're the same being" way, but more in the Nergal's dead and Orcus is seeking and/or using his "corpse" or "essence" to "act" like a god. In this concept, Kiaransalee/Ereshkigal predates the Imaskari godswall, so while Nergal had to come over on a boat and listen to Enlil, Ereshkigal wasn't so bound to Enlil's will.

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas

Edited by - sleyvas on 10 Apr 2018 13:41:45
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

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Posted - 11 Apr 2018 :  09:27:54  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Both Nergal and Orcus have fiend/god status, and i believe RW they are from the same 'pantheon' (or rather, originated in the same cultural region).

So I am going back to the 'divine spark' thing and fiends. For some reason mortals (beings native to the Prime material) CAN ascend and become gods. This tells me that we all have 'a little bit of god in us' (and if Zeus has his way, perhaps literally LOL). That part I relate back to my own theories about the original universe/world getting 'shattered', and all that cosmic 'soul stuff' (from the dead Supernal Ymir) was still attached to the prime Material, so every being born of it has some of that Uber-Overgod in them (an infintesimal amount, but even having such a tiny bit of 'omnipotence' is basically having the potential for omnipotence). But fiends were created, and more importantly, are part of the 'cosmic structure' of the Outer Planes - they don't have access to a 'divine spark' unless they steal one somehow. like how Asmodeus made Azuth his footstool in 4e.

So what if Nergal was an archfiend, and he lured the god Enki into the Abyss to kill him (and take his stuff), and got a bunch of his tanarri buddies to help (that parts canon, except it assumes Nergal was already a deity then). He also got help from a 'shadowy' god named Anshar. But before he was able to absorb Enki's divine essence, some underhanded Spellweaver (named Jack ) steal it right out from under him (using that that super-cool pyramid array of his). So then he and his shadowy buddy have to find another god-entity to kill, and they decide on Shamash (an ancient sun god... so this could just be another name for the 'first sun' we see in several D&D creation myths). Nergal is a 'god' of the Underworld, but he is also identified with the noonday sun (apparently the Mesopotamians had this concept f the sun-portfolio being split) and Shamash. Now here' the fun part - a shadowy god with 'shar' in its name helps him destroy the first sun... like how shar destroyed the first sun in FR (so once again, we see an 'echo' of a proto-myth going on). It also work well within the context of the dragon myths, because these would be truly ancient beings - 'draconic' entities of primal rage and might. Also,in the FR WoL&D creation myth, the only other beings that were said to be around were the Shadvari - perhaps that is an ancient term for 'shadow fiends', and Nergal was the king of those? (it does fit that entity well). Of course, I think the Shadvari were just shadow-touched Slaad (who in turn were the descendants of Batrachi), so would that make Nergal the original 'Slaad Overlord'? He doesn't seem very amphibian, though - he's more 'shadowy' than anything (despite his odd connection to the sun).

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone

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LordofBones
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Posted - 11 Apr 2018 :  18:08:44  Show Profile Send LordofBones a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Orcus is Roman, Nergal is Mesopotamian.
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Markustay
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Posted - 11 Apr 2018 :  22:22:10  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
They all derived from the same proto-cultures, which is how I look at things (since many of these RW cultures were kidnapped before those Earth-empires even arose).

In D&D, devils are just tainted celestials, and demons are just corrupted elementals, so 'back in the day' before all the battle-lines were drawn up, I can see Orcus and Nergal getting together to play cards on Tuesday nights.

There are TWO Nergals in FR canon - I really wish they hadn't separated them like that. RW, one just became the other. Orcus went a similar route (later 'demonized' by other cultures).

Hmmmmmm... maybe the 'Underworld' (Lower Planes) is more like a retirement home for the gods?

Anyway, I had forgotten that it was (devil) Nergal who had captured Elminster. That plot could have been so much better if they had kept the two Nergals the same (while at the same time, if Anshar is connected to Shar, then we have a buddy of Shar's capturing and torturing Elminster, which kind of makes cosmic sense).

Hmph... random thought. For awhile now I've been espousing the virtues of Shar and Selűne having been one deity that split (and the canon does hint at this) - perhaps I can repurpose this 'Anshar' to be the name for the original, conjoined deity? It's a lot easier than me having to keep calling her 'original Selűne' (I played with the idea of calling her Mystara or Mysharűne, among other things). Anshar would have also been more androgynous, hence the older references to it being 'male'.

Then it might be fun to spin original Nergal (just one being) as an agent of The Dark God, working his corruption into Anshar and getting her personality to split.

Another random thought - an aspect/avatar of a god growing so different from the original it splits-off (nothing new there), Buuuuut... what if it gets 'punished' and sent to the lower planes (thus becoming a fiend-lord)? Does that make any sense? That a God can continue to be a god, but one of its aspects gets corrupted and is sent to the Underworld as punishment? Thus, we can have the two Nergals be the same being, and yet, also be totally separate entities. And to take this idea a step further, what if this is how some of the Dark Gods corrupt the 'ones of Light'? It must be VERY hard to corrupt an entire (ancient) god, but what if you could do it in layers? Peal-off one aspect/avatar at a time?

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 11 Apr 2018 22:23:09
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sleyvas
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Posted - 12 Apr 2018 :  00:04:53  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Just to throw into this mix, Ereshkigal is canonically a "ruler of the Abyss" from 1st edition Monster Manual 2, and she rules an entire layer. Now, the Mesopotamian goddess ruled the underworld FIRST and then she acquired Nergal as her "husband". The stories vary as to whether Nergal was
A) forced into the role (being sent in punishment for disrespecting Ereshkigal... and he tried to escape, but she sent demons after him) and she fell in love with him and forced him to stay or
B) Ereshkigal pleaded with him for her life (he was going to chop off her head) and opted to share her power.

In that same Monster Manual 2 entry, there is another "ruler of the Abyss" named Nergel who is listed with an (L) for Lord (meaning he doesn't rule an entire layer). Gygax apparently used him in his Gord the Rogue series as a "Prince of Unlife". So, I'd feel safe saying that Ereshkigal and Nergel are canonically abyssal denizens. If Nergel/Nergal headed up to Narathmault/Dun-Tharos during the orcgate wars and died there (possibly killed by Ereshkigal... but who knows it could have been someone else..... hell, for all we know, Ereshkigal was entrapped there and he was headed up to free her because the "Queen of the underworld" could help in the fight).

I guess what I'm saying here is that we have a possibility for a good story that might help flesh out Dun-Tharos even more. We have possibly 3 demon lords revolving around death involved (Ereshkigal, Orcus, and Nergal). We also have dark elves in the area (i.e. Narathmault), and we also have Kiaransalee in the area later on (and possibly earlier). Then we ALSO have Lolth and a balor named Wendonai interested in the area around -10,000 DR. Then we ALSO have Eltab, Graz'zt, and Fraz’Urb-luu in the area. So, 4 powers revolving around death (3 if Ereshkigal and Kiaransalee are the same). Hmmmm.... and during the inhabitation of Narathmault was the descent of the drow...... I wonder if it could be interesting if Ereshkigal (who was white skinned) was transformed into a dark skinned goddess (i.e. Kiaransalee)... and I'm not saying that would involve the changing of her name.... I'm just saying I wonder if Corellon's curse was THAT potent, and that the Ilythiiri knew "Ereshkigal"/"The Raven Queen" under the name "Kiaransalee".... hmmm, and maybe the untold secret of faerzress is that it's some kind of demonic energy radiation?

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas

Edited by - sleyvas on 12 Apr 2018 00:59:44
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CorellonsDevout
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Posted - 12 Apr 2018 :  00:08:18  Show Profile  Send CorellonsDevout an AOL message Send CorellonsDevout a Private Message  Reply with Quote
It would be nice if they released a 5E version of MotP, but I guess the DMG was kind of used for that.

Sweet water and light laughter
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Markustay
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Posted - 12 Apr 2018 :  07:50:05  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I could possibly even identify Ki with Mystra, in that she seems to have been the 'daughter' of Anshar and Kishar (assuming here that these are Sumerian versions of Selűne and Shar, but aside from the similarity in names, it doesn't really fit their portfolios). But Ki seems to be just another aspect of the Earthmother - a younger-seeming, more vital version.

Awhile back I was trying to draw parallels between Nobanion (Aslan) and other RW mythological figures, and one of Ki's names is 'Lions Friend', which might be another reason to associate her with Mystra (via the more ancient Lurue - 'the Lion & the Unicorn' that Ed was going for - the two halves of Creation). Her consort was Anu, so perhaps we can maybe say Anu = Aslan (Nobanion)? And didn't he die in the Realms? Apparently his son Kumarbi bit off his genitals. And I thought other pantheons were a wacky bunch.

But anyhow, would it make sense that Nobanion appeared in the Realms right around the time the Mulan deities showed up? Like maybe he was trying to spread into the other, local pantheons via an alias? (as others - like Set, Bast, and Hoar - did).

quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas

I guess what I'm saying here is that we have a possibility for a good story that might help flesh out Dun-Tharos even more. We have possibly 3 demon lords revolving around death involved (Ereshkigal, Orcus, and Nergal). We also have dark elves in the area (i.e. Narathmault), and we also have Kiaransalee in the area later on (and possibly earlier). Then we ALSO have Lolth and a balor named Wendonai interested in the area around -10,000 DR. Then we ALSO have Eltab, Graz'zt, and Fraz’Urb-luu in the area. So, 4 powers revolving around death (3 if Ereshkigal and Kiaransalee are the same). Hmmmm.... and during the inhabitation of Narathmault was the descent of the drow...... I wonder if it could be interesting if Ereshkigal (who was white skinned) was transformed into a dark skinned goddess (i.e. Kiaransalee)... and I'm not saying that would involve the changing of her name.... I'm just saying I wonder if Corellon's curse was THAT potent, and that the Ilythiiri knew "Ereshkigal"/"The Raven Queen" under the name "Kiaransalee".... hmmm, and maybe the untold secret of faerzress is that it's some kind of demonic energy radiation?
Why not? Araushnee was a Dark Elf - she didn't become 'Drow' until later, and Corellon was also able to turn her into a demon (another god/fiend/then god again instance... and we may as well mention Tiamat while we are at it, especially since she is the 'Biggie' from the Sumerian pantheon).

It seems post-Godswar, a lot of former gods got downgraded to fiendhood and placed in 'jail' (the abyss or Hell).

And the Nergal/Ereshkigal thing IS reconcilable. Suppose he was one of the many gods who 'fell from grace' and was banished from the upper planes after the Godswar? And Ershkigal was his 'jailor'. But she developed a crush on him, and he used that to trick her and then when he got the drop on her threatened to kill her, and forced her to share her power (so she's one of those broads that thrive on an abusive relationship LOL). He basically 'seduced the warden' (Que cheesy porn music - Bow chika bow wow). It must have gotten damn lonely down in the Underworld.

And now I just reminded myself of an anime I finished recently - Noragami. Maybe that's where I got the idea; Izanami is a similar goddess who lives in Yomi (the Afterlife), which is very dark and depressing and she is extremely lonely. And the funny thing, she had this weird, shadowy 'tentacle' thing going on, which is very similar to how Nergal was portrayed in The Grim Adventures of Billie & Mandy. Coincidence? I think not!

Anyhow, I mentioned earlier (half-jokingly) that maybe the lower planes were like a 'retirement home' for former gods. When the get booted out of 'The Heavens' (upper planes), they really have nowhere else to go. So some might be 'imprisoned' (but I use that term loosely - its probably more like 'house arrest'), but most of them just go there to lick their wounds, and bide their time, until they can 'make moves' again, and when you plan to take on gods, its not a bad idea to cultivate fiends as allies. Its not like Celestials are going to help you - fiends and elementals are probably your only alternatives (aside from the Prime Material but there are rules where that's concerned). And if you go into hiding in the elemental planes (which are still part of the Material plane), you have to deal with the very alien primordials instead, so it seems the lower planes is the most likely place most of these fallen powers would turn to.

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 12 Apr 2018 08:18:14
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sleyvas
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Posted - 12 Apr 2018 :  13:15:35  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Yeah, I'm kind of wondering now if Dun-Tharos has at the bottom of it something akin to the "shard of evil" that corrupted the abyss from the elemental chaos. I wouldn't say the exact same thing, and in fact, it might be interesting if this "thing", whatever it is, makes the "dark pit" have ties to the underdark portion of the feywild (i.e. the feydark). This would fit with my ideas of Dun-Tharos/Narathmault having originally being a place from which fey hags arrived on Toril, and it could also fit with their being "giants" like Fomorians, as well as ogres, trolls, and other similar entities down there as well when one gets down nearer the core. However, if we did say this, just to make the story interesting ..... why the demonic interest? Do they see this as some means to draw upon the magic of the feywild? Is there some ties to the "hidden layer" of the abyss that has become coterminous to the area?

There's the beginnings of a story here, but I'm not quite sure what.

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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Baltas
Senior Scribe

Poland
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Posted - 12 Apr 2018 :  20:12:56  Show Profile Send Baltas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Markustay

With Anshar, he or Anu could be realed Tiamat's firstborn in D&D, An-Ur, espeially that Anu, was read as "An", in Sumerian.
quote:
An-Ur is the oldest of Tiamat's children. Legends say that it sprang into being from Tiamat's first breath. Despite existing for hundreds of centuries, An-Ur has steadfastly ignored the ongoing struggle between the courts of Tiamat and Bahamut.


One could question An-Ur fragmented, with him being the Sumerian An, and Anshar and Anu being his Akkadian/Babylian split. This would correlate wirth the fat in reall world, Anshar and Anu were one probably one deity originally.

This is possibly expressed in how Anshar is sometimes called Anu, and it's Anshar, who is described as the father of Ea/Enki.
https://books.google.pl/books?id=1bRADwAAQBAJ&pg=PA54&lpg=PA54&dq=anshar+enki&source=bl&ots=Y69oX1-AhC&sig=krsuxi40J1Fpq5Ks0Y99Tk_ECVs&hl=pl&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjUnrW1qLXaAhWKFywKHQW6Cg0Q6AEIRDAF#v=onepage&q=anshar%20enki&f=false

Or maybe in D&D Anshar is the Sumerian An and An-Ur, exiled from the Sumerian pantheon, and Anu is his "son", as he was born as his aspect (in at least some capacity)

Especially that in some transltions, Anshar and Kishar are children, not grandchildren of Tiamat, just a younger pair of siblings than Lahamu and Lahmu.

Of course, if we assume Anshar is Enki's father, this makes Anshar's and Nergal's murder of Enki even more morally monstrous.

It's also interesting that in the Sumerian version, Nammu (Timat) gave birth to An and Ki/Uras through pathenogenesis, and Nammu and An, were in turn parents of Enki, which would make Enki quite draconic in D&D

Although I rather equate Nammu sometimes with Asgorath, an that Nammu "fragmnted" into Tiamat, Apsu and Mummu, like Asgorath did into Tiamat, Bahamut and Nul (in short).

With Io being actually the reborn Asgorath, and a more stable being. I base it also on the fact, that in terms of reall life publication, Asgorath is older than Io - Asgorath debuted in 1990 Draconomicon, and Io debuted in the 1992 Monster Mythology.

It's also curious some (canon) sources name Chaos from Krynn/Dragonlance as Ionthas, and when the Matthew L. Martin writer of gods portion of the Vanished Moon appendix that named Chaos Ionthas, stated Ionthas was a "tribute" to Io.

Although in his fan made, expanded version of the Vanished Moon appendix, he write Gilean as stating:
quote:
"That our banished brother Ionthas has some connection to the Father of All and Nothing seems likely; it would explain how Chaos was able to manifest on our planes of being. However, that they are identical seems unlikely. I find it more probable that the Chaos left behind after we shaped much of it into the world consumed our brother and used him as a vessel.

http://dlnexus.com/features/articles/15001.aspx

- sleyvas

Hmm with Ereshkigal and Kiaransalee being the same, it's a ery interesting idea. We have also the black the similar Hel as Heleshkiga in Thoordra Thorosdottir thread.

Hela has some connection with elves via vanor - specifically Loki's partner is at times mentioned as the "burned witch/hag", something connected o Gullveig, some speculating Gullveig and Angrboda are the same. But there is more evidence Gullveig is another form of Freyja.

This opens a possibility Gullveig, Angrboda and Freyja are different aspects of one being.

Grendel's mother, is also connected to the above, and was visibly given traits of Freyja (being a seductres), corruption via greed/desire of gold (Gullveig - whose name can be translated as "Gold-Greed"), and Angrboda (being the mother of monsters, who fit the Jotun archetype - Grendel being a troll, and the dragon being a dragon like Jormungand) in the 2007 CGI Beowulf movie.

Although an issue is that Kiaransalee is a an ascended non-divine elf, although the story might be distorted version of the truth, and "non-divine", can include technically archfey...

Edited by - Baltas on 12 Apr 2018 20:55:29
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Markustay
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Posted - 12 Apr 2018 :  21:22:04  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Well, in my homebrew overcosmology, I have it where everything is realy an 'aspect' of something else, but at the super-high levels of power, mere 'ideas' become self-aware aspects in their own right, and an aspect (avatar/concept) of a Supernal is at least as mighty as a greater God. Thats what I think all the estelar (Elder Gods) and primordials were - just 'ides' given form, so in some ways you can look at them like 'offsrping', and in another way you can look at them as autonomous aspects of something greater (once again, at these levels of power, its splitting hairs - mortals would ever be able to tell the difference).

And since I think it all stems from an original thought - the 'birth' of the consciousness of the universe itself (desiring a moment of clarity as it spawned from chaos, it thought, "Let their be Light!") - which immediately split, and then resplit, ad infinitum, . At very moment of its birth and self-awareness it split, because by thrusting the chaos from its cloudy, burgeoning psyche, it gave birth to The Dark God. A 'being' consisting of that purged chaos, and one that resents its own existence. The Dark god actually dwells outside the ever-growing, 'normal' universe, within what we call The Far Realms. In fact, technically, it IS the Far Realms (just as 'GOD' IS the universe). All the other incarnations of The Dark God are either quasi-real bits of Pure Chaos (Xaos) that managed to get into our universe (because each bit, no matter how tiny, carries the non-mind of Cthon, The Dark God), or are corrupted 'vessels' the Dark One has taken over. The Elder Elemental Eye is probably an example of the former, whereas Tharizdun is definitely an example of the latter.

You see, 'indecisiveness' is the tool of chaos. When a being is 'of two minds', it splits. For mortals, this simply manifests as some confusion, but in gods and higher, an actual split can occur - a further fragmentation of the original High God. The Dark God is forever trying to shatter the universe further and further, because the more minute the pieces of the original gets, the more incohesive its thoughts become... and eventually (hopefully, for Cthon), it will result in the universe ceasing to exist (because if the 'mind of GOD' shuts down, so too, will the universe). Right now I figure 'God' is in a coma - it is the mythical world serpent that has fragmented so many times its in a stupor (a possibly irreversible one, after the Dawn War). The Shattering of the Lattice of Heaven was a near-mortal blow for GOD, because a supernal died, and a supernal was 1/12 of God's power. That was major victory for Chaos, and the universe nearly ended then.

So everything in the universe is just a piece of something greater, right on up the line, and for all we know even THE God may just be a part of something greater in an Omniverse. Oh, and as for there being an actual GOD - you can spin that any way you want. I think of it more like 'The Force' in Star Wars. It is unknowable and unreachable (especially given its current comatose status). Some powers in the universe work to restore things to a more cohesive whole (be recollecting all the myriad bits of the dead Supernal Ymir), while others are working to further fragment everything (the 'Forces of Chaos'), and still others just want to maintain the status-quo, because moving too far in either direction means the universe either changes, or ceases to exist, and most folks aren't happy with either outcome.

I've had new thoughts about Ymir - I think he was both the firmament and the Lattice of Heaven. I was spinning it where he was only 'Material' (the 3rd dimension of physicality), and Aeon* was the Lattice, but now I am thinking Aeon merely lent 'life force' to the world so that tings could grow upon it, and Ymir lent all his 'godly power' to the construction of the Lattice of Heaven, so that all the Godly Realms (and new planes as they were created) could be joined in one world. Basically, you could say that while 'The World' (Midgard, etc.) was his physical form, his 'mind' became the Lattice - the very first version of The Weave. So he basically got 'beheaded', in a metaphycial sense. This allows me to look at him also as the first 'Skyfather' (the proto-Skyfather), while also saying he is 'the world' itself (the matter that became the Material Planes and all the crystal Spheres). Then his siter-wife Aeon merges with his dying form, creating anew hybrid supernal - Gaea, who is part life, but also part death, and thus we have the two sides of magic (because Gaea represented 'lifeforce', which is also Mana, or 'Raw' Magic).

And the splits just kept happening, over and over again in various pantheons, and we see it with Shar and Selűne, but I think it goes back much further, and I think you are 100% right about these 'conjoined' deities. I think we've been looking at it from the wrong direction. I don't think these gods get together and form a 'hybrid' god, I think they are all just aspects of that god already, and that god is an Archtype (or an aspect itself of an archtype). Thus, there really is no Hanali Selanil (Sune/Venus), Sehanine Moonbow (Selűne), and Aerdrie Faenya (Rhiannon), but rather, only Angharradh. Those are just aspects of the archtype. The same is probably true of the Triad, although that's a world-specific aspect that has further fragmented (probably because other, different aspects of the archtype came over with various interlopers).

Although, to tell you the truth, I think Angharradh may be a weird (unique?) case of a 'repaired' aspect. I think Aurausnee was originally part of that, and when she was 'cast out', Rhiannon - a primal power of the fey - took her place as Aerdrie Faenya. So we have a case of an archtype losing a part of itself, but then to keep it from fragmenting completely, it absorbs a primal power to 'fill the gap' (and I am not sure where primal powers fit in - they may just be 'stray thoughts' {dreams?} inside the mind of either the quasi-dead Ymir, or the comatose GOD itself... not that it makes a difference, since one is merely part of the other). I guess it al goes back to my 'lavaamp' theory - everything started out as part of the same amorphous blob, and over time it separates and recombines in different forms, constantly. Thus, the Gods, and the universe itself, is ever-changing and ever-evolving - a bit of chaos that got in during the Dawn War (otherwise, we may have all been living in a very stagnant, stratified, dreary world).

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone

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Markustay
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Posted - 12 Apr 2018 :  21:35:58  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I'm going to quote myself from the last page, to bring somehting into this..
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

So, while researching Vecna, I came across an actual name for 'The Serpent' -
quote:
Mok'slyk is an old Flan name for an entity known as the Serpent, an entity of godlike power believed to be the personification of arcane magic. The Serpent is said to be a member of a group of unfathomably old entities known as the Ancient Brethren, which, though similar to gods, are not exactly gods, though some beings honor them as such. The Lady of Pain, Asmodeus, and Jazirian are also sometimes said to belong, or to have once belonged, to this group, and supposedly Vecna is a descendant of the Ancient Brethren. There may also be a connection between the Ancient Brethren and the draedens and baernoloths born before the multiverse began.


More important than Mok'slyk himself is the other info here - the 'Ancient Brethren'. Pretty neat, huh?

Perhaps 'Primal Spirits' are part of this group of 'Ancient brethren', or rather, thats just one name (on one world) that those beings go by. They sit 'outside' the hierarchy, like my theoretical Eternals. Or maybe, these Ancient Brethren are an even old form of that - maybe when gods separate some 'stuff is lost', and sometimes this recollects into something else, not affiliated with any particular archtype, or Supernal. 'Ghosts in the Machine'. The greatest of these (these 'Brethren' probably were spawnded during the first splits, when The ONE became TWO (GOD and Cthon), and the GOD (Atum) split into the divine masculine (Shu) and the divine feminine (Tefnut), and they then split into the 12 Supernals (six from the 'feminine' side, six from the 'masculine' side). From all that, the 'bits' that got lost became those ancient brethren - the 'thoughts' that had no place within the minds of any of The Twelve. There is no way of knowing who or how many there are, and many lesser versions were created as Estelar split into aspects. For whatever reason, elemental beings - Primordials - don't seem to suffer this problem, unless they become tainted/corrupted. When they split, they just become smaller, weaker duplicates of themselves.

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone

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Markustay
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Posted - 12 Apr 2018 :  21:46:05  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas

Yeah, I'm kind of wondering now if Dun-Tharos has at the bottom of it something akin to the "shard of evil" that corrupted the abyss from the elemental chaos. I wouldn't say the exact same thing, and in fact, it might be interesting if this "thing", whatever it is, makes the "dark pit" have ties to the underdark portion of the feywild (i.e. the feydark). This would fit with my ideas of Dun-Tharos/Narathmault having originally being a place from which fey hags arrived on Toril, and it could also fit with their being "giants" like Fomorians, as well as ogres, trolls, and other similar entities down there as well when one gets down nearer the core. However, if we did say this, just to make the story interesting ..... why the demonic interest? Do they see this as some means to draw upon the magic of the feywild? Is there some ties to the "hidden layer" of the abyss that has become coterminous to the area?

There's the beginnings of a story here, but I'm not quite sure what.
Yeah, and then we have Szass Tam casting his uber-ritual there, with the Dread Rings - he was definitely tapping into something. its just so weird how everyone coveted that stupid double-plateau.

I don't know why, but I think I'd rather lean toward the Batrachi for an antideluvian answer to this question, rather than the usualy culprits - the Sarrukh. Maybe because they just scream 'squishy tentacle thingies' to me. Perhaps Remnos or some-such was given a 'Shard of Pure Evil', but instead of letting it infect him, he hid it away there.

And now I just had another stray thought - what if the illithids were what the Batrachi were meant to be? But somehting changed in the past and it destroyed their future (so their empire simply ceased to exist, but a few 'strays' managed to be in places that were protected from the continuity-wave). Maybe that's why they've 'come back from the future' - they need to make sure 'they happen' again (instead of turning out to be devolved frogs and blue octopi). Not sure what to blame that on, though - we have some lore that 'entire civilizations ceased to exist, as if they never were' when the Sundering happened, but that's a bit world-specific. The Lattice of Heaven thing may have been another Time-breaker, for all we know. Plus, I think the Gith (and perhaps Tiamat) need to be involved in all that.

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone

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Wooly Rupert
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Posted - 12 Apr 2018 :  22:07:23  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

Not sure what to blame that on, though - we have some lore that 'entire civilizations ceased to exist, as if they never were' when the Sundering happened, but that's a bit world-specific.



Where is that lore from? I don't recall the source for that one.

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sleyvas
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Posted - 13 Apr 2018 :  00:45:00  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Baltas



- sleyvas

Hmm with Ereshkigal and Kiaransalee being the same, it's a ery interesting idea. We have also the black the similar Hel as Heleshkiga in Thoordra Thorosdottir thread.

Hela has some connection with elves via vanor - specifically Loki's partner is at times mentioned as the "burned witch/hag", something connected o Gullveig, some speculating Gullveig and Angrboda are the same. But there is more evidence Gullveig is another form of Freyja.

This opens a possibility Gullveig, Angrboda and Freyja are different aspects of one being.

Grendel's mother, is also connected to the above, and was visibly given traits of Freyja (being a seductres), corruption via greed/desire of gold (Gullveig - whose name can be translated as "Gold-Greed"), and Angrboda (being the mother of monsters, who fit the Jotun archetype - Grendel being a troll, and the dragon being a dragon like Jormungand) in the 2007 CGI Beowulf movie.

Although an issue is that Kiaransalee is a an ascended non-divine elf, although the story might be distorted version of the truth, and "non-divine", can include technically archfey...



Hmmm, yeah, that does fit in well as well... especially with Hel (Heleshkiga being the Metahel Pantheon name that I made up) being half white and half black skinned.... and yes, I would be leaning towards some kind of concept in this of Kiaransalee being some queen of Threnody, but her as some kind of powerful fey... maybe even a noble hag (after all, hags don't necessarily LOOK horrible to the average person). However if after "ascending" to godhood she tied herself to the elves somehow, she maybe got affected by Corellon's curse. This would of course mean that Angrboda would be some kind of hag/fey/giant.... Then of course there's the concept of deities consuming one another and taking names.

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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Markustay
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Posted - 14 Apr 2018 :  07:48:03  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

Not sure what to blame that on, though - we have some lore that 'entire civilizations ceased to exist, as if they never were' when the Sundering happened, but that's a bit world-specific.


Where is that lore from? I don't recall the source for that one.

Its in the Evermeet novel by Elaine, but not where the Sundering 'happens' (I know, because I went looking for it later and it drove me nuts). At another point in the book there is some 'broad strokes' recap of the previous few chapters, and it says it in there. I unfortunately no longer have a physical copy of that book, so I couldn't even begin to give a page#. Its also where Ka'Narlist is mentioned to have 'died', so I think its a part of the book where Lolth herself is thinking about the past events (as a way of summing up the stuff that happened thus far in the book), because IIRC, Ka'Narlist is referred to as 'her paramour' (or some-such terminology*), and the reason why that sticks in my head is because when Ka'Narlst was 'on stage' in the novel, none of that was ever mentioned (just that her interest in him was peaked).

But it is possible I am reading a bit more into that - it may have just been hyperbole, and not meant literally (the "as if they never were" part). She probably wrote it that way on-purpose, so either interpretation could work (she's clever like that). Alluding to the possibility of a change in the timeline without actually saying so.

It still remains my absolute favorite FR novel (and I HATE elves, so that's REALLY saying something). Her grasp of FR lore is brilliant. I really need to get myself another copy - its time to read it a fourth time.

EDIT:
*It may have even been 'consort', instead of paramour, which even implies some sort of official status in her hierarchy. As I said, it struck me as odd since I hadn't seen that coming when he was actually alive in the book and doing stuff (some centuries did pass, though, between his meeting with those Light Elves, and when the Sundering had occurred, although that implies the timeline is a bit inconsistent, because he would have been around for the crown Wars, because he was leading the Ilythiir Elves). I'm not big on Elven history and I don't feel like looking it up ATM - I am not really sure when they cast that Evermeet-making ritual (beginning, end, or middle of the Crown Wars?) If it was towards the end it still all works out.

Its hard to get straight in my head, because the ritual was cast at one point in time, but the changes wrought happened at another time, during the Ao's Sundering. When I think about the Elven Sundering ritual, I keep thinking it all happened at the same time, which is why I may be completely 'off' by saying there is an inconsistency.**

Can't blame me though - you don't see Harry Potter casting spells on a Friday that happened 'last Tuesday'.

Hermione might be able to pull that off...

EDIT2:
**Dang! I just realized that means there is an even bigger inconsistency! If the Sundering ritual the Elves cast reached back in time to when 'the world is created' (which we have to assume was when the worlds was twinned), and all that horrific damage happened back then, to the point where whole civilizations were simply 'erased'... how the heck was Ka'Narlist killed by all of that in the present?

He died as a result of the spell being cast, but how can that be? If he died in the past he should have never even been around to do any of the stuff he did. I hate time stuff - it makes my head hurt. Unless only Lolth remembers him (perhaps she's got some sort of 'temporal shielding' - maybe any of the Elder Gods {pre-Dawn War} have that capability, since they lived in 'the time before time'). It would make sense, since he's not mentioned in any of the histories (except in that vingette in the GHotR that specifically calls him the leader of the Ilythiir). Anyhow, I'll just go with that - only Lolth remembers him because he got 'erased'.

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 14 Apr 2018 18:53:23
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Markustay
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Posted - 14 Apr 2018 :  18:46:31  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Okay, none of that last part really works either. Ka'Narlist couldn't have been that old (even if the arrival of the High Elves (Eladrin) did come after the return of the Green/Sylvan Elves, which includes the Dark Elves) - He could NOT have existed 'when the world was created'. Even if we say it was The Sundering rather than the original (un-twinned) world's creation (which would REALLY push it back too far). He was NOT a lich and elves did not live that long, not even back then (technically we could fudge that, and say those Sylvan types were still 'fey', but I'm not comfortable with that). From what I recall of the novel, Ka'Narlist could very well have predated the arrival of those elves (from Tintageer), because he was already very powerful when they found him, and he could have easily been several centuries old (no problem for an elf). But that still would NOT put him back to the time the world was created, even if we went with The Sundering.

So I think the simplest fix would be to say the elves caused something akin to a 'time quake'. Even though the changes were wrought in the distant past, they were still significant enough to have sent catastrophic ripples forward through time, causing tons of (somewhat unrelated) destruction in their wake. In other words, it wasn't so much the changes the spell made (in the past), as it was the spell itself having a planet-wide Wild-Magic surge (you're basically resetting The Weave and everything else, so that's highly plausible, IMO).

But whats odd is, it doesn't seem to have affected the region the High-Magic ritual itself was cast in.

Too bad we couldn't rewrite some of FR's history - at this point I think it would have been far better to connect it to the Dark Disaster - say the Miyeritar Elves actually 'did the ritual' (trying to create a 'pristine homeland' far from the Aryvandaar jerks). In that way, we could say the Dark Disaster was 'ground zero' for the Magical ritual, and was thusly 'erased'.

We could actually still do that - reading the entry in the GHotR, it just says they all met at 'The Gathering Place'... what if that was inside Miyeriter? And then the Vyshaan - who wanted the ritual cast, got blamed for it all, and that's why the histories say they caused the Dark Disaster? That might work. Still a bit of a rewrite, but not as bad as I thought it would be. The timeline of events would have to be tweaked.

@Wooly - this is from the Vingette in the GHotR (since I had to check that source just now)...
quote:
But the creation of this place did not involve rending the world, as the humans imagine. Instead, our ancestors created a concentration of the Weave so powerful that a piece of fair Arvandor became part of Toril, as if it had always been so. By thus altering the creation of the world, our ancestors also changed the history of the world as it had unfolded to that point.


So that's pertinent to the current subject, but not exactly what you were asking about. Its also where the idea that the island of Evermeet was actually the island realm of Tintageer from Faerie, 'pulled through time' from the Feywild, so that the elves unwittingly created their own disaster in the past that lead up to that moment.

EDIT:
And I went looking for that bit in E:IoE by EC, and I have just come across this, which directly relates to what I quoted above...
quote:
"Some legends say that Evermeet is a piece of Arvandor descended to the mortal world. Some consider it a bridge between the worlds, a place where the line between the mortal and the divine blurs. To some, it is merely a prize to be won. But this much is clear to all: from the day of its cre­ation, Evermeet became the ancient homeland of Faerun's People. This is not a simple matter to understand or explain, but when has truth ever been utterly devoid of par­adox?"
—Excerpt from a letter from Elasha Evanara,
Priestess of Labelas, Keeper of the Queen's Library


"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 14 Apr 2018 18:54:31
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Markustay
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Posted - 14 Apr 2018 :  19:16:53  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Okay, I may have miscalculated on Ka'Narlist's age...
quote:
Lloth gazed with interest upon the leader of the ready army, a dark elf called Ka'Narlist. Though he looked young and vital, Lloth sensed that he was an ancient being, sustained long past the normal years of an elf by the force of his magic. The source of this incredible power fascinat­ed Lloth: The wizard wore a cunningly woven vest fash­ioned of chain mail and dark pearls—each of which contained the essence and magic of a slain Sea elf. Delight­ful, this elf!
That one line alone means he may actually have been around during the 'Age of Thunder'. Also, just before that, we see Lolth thinking about Kiaransalee (we've been musing about how old she might be in various threads, and this places her very far back on the timeline - she was already a goddess, so she had already destroyed Threnody in the distant past). And here we see that Lolth only learned the word 'Drow' from Kiaransalee, who considered herself one (and this, BEFORE the Descent Curse was inflicted on the Ilythir by Corellon!). And in the next scene after her musings, we actually SEE Kiaransalee on-stage, she is JET BLACK, and so are her warriors (or were... thewy're all undead now). This indicates that 'Drow' was a thing before what happened to the Ilythiir (so they were not 'invented' in that moment). Also, Its Vhaeraun thats leading armies of dark Elves under Ka'Narlist's command (or rather, the other way around LOL). Now, when Ka'Narlist was 'on stage' earlier, he stated that most of his people followed Ghaunadaur... but not him. Apparently Vhaeraun was making huge in-roads among Ghaunadaur's followers (which directly relates to Ghaunadaur's on-going, LOSING war with Lolth - he had completely depleted himself fighting her, so Vhaeraun's 'victory' was due to his mother's own machinations, indirectly).

EDIT:
Oh, and to keep this subject more on-topic, when the elf Kethryllia first entered the Abyss, she did so through Kiaransalee's Realm, and she noted it was so cold it was painful. And although I am well aware that 'cold' is often associated with death (and undeath), I find it VERY interesting that Kiarasalee likes to keep her Realm at freezing temperatures... almost as if she was some sort of 'goddess of cold', or at least, somehow associated with one (see our many other musings about how Kiaransalee and The Raven Queen may somehow be related, if not the same being). She is also described as breathtakingly beautiful, but jet black with a palpable aura of pure evil. Pretty cool, no?

It also mentions that the Iliythiir forces 'like to hide in caves' during the daytime (they were waging a guerilla-war against the northern elves). That's just Elaine doing some clever foreshadowing.

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 14 Apr 2018 19:25:59
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sleyvas
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Posted - 14 Apr 2018 :  20:27:03  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

Okay, I may have miscalculated on Ka'Narlist's age...
quote:
Lloth gazed with interest upon the leader of the ready army, a dark elf called Ka'Narlist. Though he looked young and vital, Lloth sensed that he was an ancient being, sustained long past the normal years of an elf by the force of his magic. The source of this incredible power fascinat­ed Lloth: The wizard wore a cunningly woven vest fash­ioned of chain mail and dark pearls—each of which contained the essence and magic of a slain Sea elf. Delight­ful, this elf!
That one line alone means he may actually have been around during the 'Age of Thunder'. Also, just before that, we see Lolth thinking about Kiaransalee (we've been musing about how old she might be in various threads, and this places her very far back on the timeline - she was already a goddess, so she had already destroyed Threnody in the distant past). And here we see that Lolth only learned the word 'Drow' from Kiaransalee, who considered herself one (and this, BEFORE the Descent Curse was inflicted on the Ilythir by Corellon!). And in the next scene after her musings, we actually SEE Kiaransalee on-stage, she is JET BLACK, and so are her warriors (or were... thewy're all undead now). This indicates that 'Drow' was a thing before what happened to the Ilythiir (so they were not 'invented' in that moment). Also, Its Vhaeraun thats leading armies of dark Elves under Ka'Narlist's command (or rather, the other way around LOL). Now, when Ka'Narlist was 'on stage' earlier, he stated that most of his people followed Ghaunadaur... but not him. Apparently Vhaeraun was making huge in-roads among Ghaunadaur's followers (which directly relates to Ghaunadaur's on-going, LOSING war with Lolth - he had completely depleted himself fighting her, so Vhaeraun's 'victory' was due to his mother's own machinations, indirectly).

EDIT:
Oh, and to keep this subject more on-topic, when the elf Kethryllia first entered the Abyss, she did so through Kiaransalee's Realm, and she noted it was so cold it was painful. And although I am well aware that 'cold' is often associated with death (and undeath), I find it VERY interesting that Kiarasalee likes to keep her Realm at freezing temperatures... almost as if she was some sort of 'goddess of cold', or at least, somehow associated with one (see our many other musings about how Kiaransalee and The Raven Queen may somehow be related, if not the same being). She is also described as breathtakingly beautiful, but jet black with a palpable aura of pure evil. Pretty cool, no?

It also mentions that the Iliythiir forces 'like to hide in caves' during the daytime (they were waging a guerilla-war against the northern elves). That's just Elaine doing some clever foreshadowing.



Yeah, Kiaransalee is very old in the realms, possibly even predating the creation of realmspace crystal sphere for all we know. The Raven Queen is shown as light skinned (like Ereshkigal), while as you point out, Kiaransalee is portrayed as dark skinned. That being said, we always say that gods can look like whatever they want. However, what if the descent had a little bit of that wacky "reaching forward and backward in time" effect like the sundering... and it effectively sunders "the queen of air and darkness" into different entities (Hel <who is "fey" as the son of two "giants".. or possibly a "giant" and a "hag">, Ereshkigal, Kiaransalee (technically fey as well), Auril (an archfey name Aurilandur), the Raven Queen).

It should also be noted that TRQ worked AGAINST Lolth by aiding Corellon with her "sorrowsworn" during the descent and took the portfolio of Fate from Lolth. Of course, at that time, TRQ wasn't exactly on good terms with the other gods either... so they may have had some other tricks in the pipe when they cast Lolth down as well that MAY have affected TRQ for all we know.

I know we've pointed it out previously, but its also good to remember that "The Raven Queen" is documented as being called Nera and being with Nerull.... and Ereshkigal is documented as being with Nergal.... and also its canon that there are "lords of the abyss" named Ereshkigal and Nergel "the Prince of Unlife". Furthermore, in the lore of Nerull/Nera, he strikes her down with a plague, and Nergal is noted as a god of plagues/diseases.

Finally, the Raven Queen is a goddess of "Fate". On the isle of Sahu down in Zakhara there is a city called Ereshkigal. I submit that perhaps the being known as "Fate" that's so powerful in Zakhara MAY actually be Ereshkigal/the Raven Queen, and she's been using THAT name to gain power there.

So, TRQ may have been "invading" these other pantheons under other names in order to infiltrate them without causing enough conflict that Ao would make her immediately an issue for said pantheon. She invades the Untheric as Ereshkigal... she invades the drow as Kiaransalee... she invades the Faerunian as Auril... she invades the elven as Aurilandur.... she invades my homebrew Metahel pantheon as Heleshkiga... but her greatest strength on Toril has been in Zakhara as "Fate".

The one thing that is very tempting, but I'd recommend strongly staying away from, is the idea of tying this entity to Shar. If anything, I'd say have them be two powers competing for similar portfolios. The reason I say this would be that the convoluted storyline of Shar is already hard. Tying her into all this would be hell. If anything, I'd saying tying Shar and Cegilune is easier... and then noting the ideas that Cegilune and the Queen of Air and Darkness are separate entities with similar goals, etc....

Its worth rereading the story of TRQ from Dungeon #171 again as well with some of these thoughts in mind.


Life from Death
Tales about the Raven Queen’s origin are common knowledge for most, even if the common folk can’t name the Lord of the Dead who preceded her. As the stories go, the Raven Queen was a mortal queen, a warrior, or a figure of great power, but her great strength and achievements couldn’t shield her from the deadly plagues Nerull, then the god of death and the dead, unleashed to harvest more souls to feed his unnatural hunger. He, like others since, sought to become king over all gods. He believed the path to his conquest would be paved with the souls taken from the dead.

The mortal woman, however, gave him pause. In her he saw fabulous strength, character, and ambition to match his own. He made her his queen, called her Nera, and placed her at his side. But she would kneel to no one, not even a god, and once she learned to harness the souls and use their power, she led the uprising that culminated in her captor’s destruction.

What makes this particular myth interesting is that the Raven Queen, although struck down by an insidious plague, proved her superior wit and resolve by overcoming the ennui plaguing her and retaining enough of her drive to oust a god and seize his mantle. Other than Vecna, she is the only known deity who attained divinity after her mortal death.

Divine Interference

By rights, the Raven Queen should have assumed Nerull’s place, continuing as he had by binding souls to Pluton, which could then be used and discarded as she willed. The Lord of the Dead’s terrible reign convinced the other deities that no god or power should claim the dead, however. The gods allowed the Raven Queen to join their ranks, but with the provision that she would become the god of death and not the god of the dead like her predecessor. In this role, the Raven Queen would safeguard a soul’s passage from the natural world to whatever lay beyond. “Nera” believed the gods’ interference was unjustified, but the way she had exploited the souls against Nerull, proved she was not above using souls for whatever purpose she desired. The gods acted to safeguard mortals from annihilation. Their good intentions created a rift between them and the new god, and those
tensions persist even now.

Naked Ambition

From the moment the gods stepped in and blocked her from claiming Nerull’s full mantle, the new deity turned her every resource to unshackling herself from their prohibition, going so far as to assume her current identity. She purged the world of her true name and took to calling herself the Raven Queen, all to circumvent the restrictions they placed on her. She quit the Astral Sea, abandoning Pluton to raise a new palace in the Shadowfell where she could unlock the souls’ secrets without interference from the meddling
powers.

The Raven Queen stood apart from her peers, taking no hand in their dramas unless she could grow her power as a result. For example, she came to Corellon’s side during the war against Lolth, lending her sorrowsworn against the fallen elves and their demonic allies. In her defeat, Lolth forfeited her claim to the domain of fate, leaving it available for the Raven Queen to assume as reward for her assistance. Again, when Khala, then god of winter, sought to grow her own power, the Raven Queen was there, fighting alongside
the other gods to stake her claim to winter when Khala was eventually cast down.
One can be certain if another divine struggle erupted in the planes, the Raven Queen would pick over the gods’ corpses and
seize their mantles as she has before.

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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sleyvas
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USA
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Posted - 14 Apr 2018 :  20:40:59  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Hmmmm, and rereading some of where they plan to go with the shadar-kai here

https://www.dndbeyond.com/posts/161-the-shadar-kai-and-the-raven-queen-in-d-ds

This has some evil wizards (who become the nagpa.... or the Skeksis of Dark Crystal....) who are involved in the "ripping apart" of the being that reforms as "the raven queen" in the shadowfell during the whole Lolth/Corellon/Descent fiasco. Hmmm, this lends even more credence to the idea that something happened during the descent that affected Kiaransalee/Ereshkigal/The Raven Queen .... who MAYBE at that time was the FULL ON Queen of Air and Darkness? Maybe THAT'S who the Shadar-Kai were serving. Maybe that's also when Cegilune formed. Maybe this is why the entity on the throne of the QoA&D appears as nothing but blackness and a voice... because its a fractured and insane entity as fallout from the descent.

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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Markustay
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Posted - 15 Apr 2018 :  02:43:26  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Yeah, I had mused somewhere around here abou Kiaransalee, The Raven Queen, and Auril all be aspects of a 'shattered goddess'. I forget where I was going on about that - should have been in this thread, awhile back. I came up with a pretty cool (if I do say so myself) backstory involving all of them and the 'Frost regalia' (with a piece of the goddess's shattered psyche stuck in each artifact). In other words, when the black Diamond first touched Aurilandur, her minded was fragmented, and a part of it even went into her handmaiden (I believe I made that one tRQ). One piece went to Threnody (they are artifacts, after all, so they have that habit of moving about the multiverse), and when Kiaransalee touched it she absorbed part of Auril's madness (who was had then become the Queen of Air & Darkness). Thus, each of the three women have parts of the memories of the original Frost Sprite Queen. And all three knew they were supposed to be queens, and so it went.

They are also each unique, as well. While Kiaransalee obviously shares Auril's love of cold, the Raven Queen could care less about temperature. All three are also fey, of the three main branches of elves - Aurilandur was a High (Eladrin) elf, Kiaransalee was a Dark Elf, and Auril's handmaiden was a Sylvan (Green) Elf. Being gods, they can appear however they want, and most people don't realize she's elven (her ears are usually covered, and her eyes just appear 'exotic'). I'm just watching that video again - I like that she is checking each soul leaving the mortal realm. I wonder if she's looking for something... her own identity? Anyway, its very telling that elves (Shadar-Kai) serve her.

EDIT:
Watching a different video, I just learned tRQ is ALSO a 'goddess of winter', so I guess she does like cold as well. LOL

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 15 Apr 2018 03:06:29
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Irennan
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Italy
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Posted - 15 Apr 2018 :  02:56:24  Show Profile Send Irennan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

Okay, I may have miscalculated on Ka'Narlist's age...
quote:
Lloth gazed with interest upon the leader of the ready army, a dark elf called Ka'Narlist. Though he looked young and vital, Lloth sensed that he was an ancient being, sustained long past the normal years of an elf by the force of his magic. The source of this incredible power fascinat­ed Lloth: The wizard wore a cunningly woven vest fash­ioned of chain mail and dark pearls—each of which contained the essence and magic of a slain Sea elf. Delight­ful, this elf!
That one line alone means he may actually have been around during the 'Age of Thunder'. Also, just before that, we see Lolth thinking about Kiaransalee (we've been musing about how old she might be in various threads, and this places her very far back on the timeline - she was already a goddess, so she had already destroyed Threnody in the distant past). And here we see that Lolth only learned the word 'Drow' from Kiaransalee, who considered herself one (and this, BEFORE the Descent Curse was inflicted on the Ilythir by Corellon!). And in the next scene after her musings, we actually SEE Kiaransalee on-stage, she is JET BLACK, and so are her warriors (or were... thewy're all undead now). This indicates that 'Drow' was a thing before what happened to the Ilythiir (so they were not 'invented' in that moment). Also, Its Vhaeraun thats leading armies of dark Elves under Ka'Narlist's command (or rather, the other way around LOL). Now, when Ka'Narlist was 'on stage' earlier, he stated that most of his people followed Ghaunadaur... but not him. Apparently Vhaeraun was making huge in-roads among Ghaunadaur's followers (which directly relates to Ghaunadaur's on-going, LOSING war with Lolth - he had completely depleted himself fighting her, so Vhaeraun's 'victory' was due to his mother's own machinations, indirectly).

EDIT:
Oh, and to keep this subject more on-topic, when the elf Kethryllia first entered the Abyss, she did so through Kiaransalee's Realm, and she noted it was so cold it was painful. And although I am well aware that 'cold' is often associated with death (and undeath), I find it VERY interesting that Kiarasalee likes to keep her Realm at freezing temperatures... almost as if she was some sort of 'goddess of cold', or at least, somehow associated with one (see our many other musings about how Kiaransalee and The Raven Queen may somehow be related, if not the same being). She is also described as breathtakingly beautiful, but jet black with a palpable aura of pure evil. Pretty cool, no?

It also mentions that the Iliythiir forces 'like to hide in caves' during the daytime (they were waging a guerilla-war against the northern elves). That's just Elaine doing some clever foreshadowing.



In Elaine's Evermeet, all drow deities are depicted as, well, drow, even before the curse IIRC. Idk if that's just due to Danilo's mistakes, or to drow already being a thing even before the descent.

To all Facebook-using FR fans, you might be interested in checking out this page: https://www.facebook.com/groups/450517575051806/
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sleyvas
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Posted - 15 Apr 2018 :  03:07:27  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

Yeah, I had mused somewhere around here abou Kiaransalee, The Raven Queen, and Auril all be aspects of a 'shattered goddess'. I forget where I was going on about that - should have been in this thread, awhile back. I came up with a pretty cool (if I do say so myself) backstory involving all of them and the 'Frost regalia' (with a piece of the goddess's shattered psyche stuck in each artifact). In other words, when the black Diamond first touched Aurilandur, her minded was fragmented, and a part of it even went into her handmaiden (I believe I made that one tRQ). One piece went to Threnody (they are artifacts, after all, so they have that habit of moving about the multiverse), and when Kiaransalee touched it she absorbed part of Auril's madness (who was had then become the Queen of Air & Darkness). Thus, each of the three women have parts of the memories of the original Frost Sprite Queen. And all three knew they were supposed to be queens, and so it went.

They are also each unique, as well. While Kiaransalee obviously shares Auril's love of cold, the Raven Queen could care less about temperature. All three are also fey, of the three main branches of elves - Aurilandur was a High (Eladrin) elf, Kiaransalee was a Dark Elf, and Auril's handmaiden was a Sylvan (Green) Elf. Being gods, they can appear however they want, and most people don't realize she's elven (her ears are usually covered, and her eyes just appear 'exotic'). I'm just watching that video again - I like that she is checking each soul leaving the mortal realm. I wonder if she's looking for something... her own identity? Anyway, its very telling that elves (Shadar-Kai) serve her.

EDIT:
Watching a different video, I just learned tRQ is ALSO a 'goddess of winter', so I guess she does like cold as well. LOL



Auril (as Aurilandur) also has strong ties to the Avariel

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

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Posted - 15 Apr 2018 :  04:29:09  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Another thing - Lolth used to be the 'Fate-spinner' of the seldarine, and now tRQ has that portfolio, so if she is elven (and Mike Mearls hinted she was), then it looks like she got some of Lolth's stuff as well (I am still thinking a handmaiden in the Seldarine court, who became 'collateral damage' when everything went bad).

quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas

Auril (as Aurilandur) also has strong ties to the Avariel

Its probably a 'mountaintop' thing (ice-capped mountain eyries).

Thats interesting. I had decided I was going to respin Rhiannon (an ancient Fey power) as the original version of Aerdrie Faenya, who joined the Seldarine (as a part of Angharradh) when Lolth got the boot. Assuming here that Lolth was part of the original tripartite deity. Its not like I really had anything to go on - I just wanted to get her into the new conjoined pantheon and the easy way to go about it was to say she's always been there, under another name. Being the 'Queen of Fairies', I figure she's got wings, so why not make her Aerdrie.

So by giving me the info you just did, now I have another piece for my growing puzzle. 'The Frost Sprite Queen' was probably supposed to be the Elven God of winged things (through her connection to Sprites), but when she got cast out (and note, and old Dragon article says she's worked with Lolth!), that portfolio got handed over to Rhiannon (who became Aerdrie Faenya).

So as the QoA&D Auril was probably part of lolth's Dark Seldarine, but in the Realms that little secret never really came to light.

I also think Umberlee is another one who lost her spot back then - she's another 'Queen' ('The Bitch Queen', so possibly a sea hag?)

Corellon needs his own harem anime. LOL
Of course, most of these chicks want to kill him now. I mean, the guy commits genocide every time someone chops down a tree somewhere... he has a bit of the 'psycho ex' thing going on.

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 15 Apr 2018 04:33:35
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Baltas
Senior Scribe

Poland
574 Posts

Posted - 15 Apr 2018 :  11:43:22  Show Profile Send Baltas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
- Markustay

Well, with Rhiannon, I personaly rather tend to connect her with Lurue, as Rhiannon is by most identified with Epona the horse goddess. Aerdie Fenya, as I mentioned before I rather identified as an aspect of Freyja.
Aerdrie Faenya, even since earliest lore, spends half of her time in Ysgard, and has a domain there. Freyja, also since irst edition, has a Falcon as a symbol.

Aerdrie Faenya's very name, seems to be call back to Freyja - "Fenya", being possibly a corruption of Freyja, and Aerdie, being a corruption of Erda/Jord, who often is thought to be the mother of Freyja (ie the same as Nerthus). So Aerdie Fenya, could be in reverse order for some reason, basically a version of "Freyja Erdadottir" - Freya, Daughter of Erda. So I think there is a deliberate connection...

But it's also notable the names Freyja and Rhiannon mean nearly the same - Freyja means "Lady" in the sense of the feminine version of "Lord" (and Freyr neans "Lord"), while Rhiannon means "Queen" (cognate to "Regina"). Hmm...


Well, I think it could be an adult only anime, seeing Corellon's hermaphroditic nature, if you get what I mean

But to be clear, while people often think of Corellon as exclusivelly male, that isn't exactly the case - he was described since earliest materials as a hermaphroditic deity, equally male and female. This is is something recently was emphasized with his gift to elves.

(Yes Corellon was described with male pronouns, but male pronouns can be gender neutral, just like some terms with masculine meaning, have a gender neutral one, like "man" or "god")

While this was at times, mentioned as the atribute of all of the Seldarine, it's most consistently applied to Corellon, and he was mentioned as not really having a preferred gender as opposed to mist other Seldarine.

This made me at times think Slaanesh from Warhammer (the Dark Prince, She who Thirsts etc.) is partly inspired by Corellon, if Slaanesh is a particularly twisted version of him. Especially that Slaanesh is also connected to art, music craft, if again, in a twisted way...snd is also very strongly connected to elves.

This similarity is now even greater with Corellon's gift, since one of Slaanesh's gifts is hermaphroditism. Yes it's different, but still similar enough it's interesting...

Edited by - Baltas on 15 Apr 2018 11:45:50
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