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Ayrik
Great Reader

Canada
6139 Posts

Posted - 27 Oct 2016 :  02:43:54  Show Profile Send Ayrik a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Even better than WotC's 3E planeslore - there are literally several dozen 3E/3.5E (d20/SRD) planeslore sourcebooks published by third parties. The majority of these build upon "traditional" 1E/2E/Planescape planeslore or WotC's sparse 3E planeslore, although some present radically alternative and highly original frameworks. And there's always plenty of room in the (nearly) infinite planes to fit in entirely new stuff from entirely new sources.

The best multiplanar (or unashamedly Planescape) campaigns I'd ever participated in always embraced the impossible, unknown, and unpredictable. Things never turned out to be what was expected, and creative abilities (as a DM or as a player) to adapt and improvise were always essential for survival. In one particularly difficult campaign the DM decided that all the portals/gateways/etc which link the planes were always "fixed" in location, while the planes themselves all eternally moved through complex orbits (which were sometimes simple, sometimes impossible even for gods to predict or calculate).

I simply think of planes as "places" - each being a unique world filled with history and background, heroes and villains, characters and monsters, science and magic, etc. WotC has conveniently presented several different maps to known planes, but that doesn't mean there aren't many more places to go.

Eat lots of garlic - it keeps the elves and vampires away.
Don't stick your sword into dragons, you just don't know where they've been.
Avoid stepping on halflings. They stick to your boots, will smell awful, and are impossible to scrape off.
Ah, of course. Never play leapfrog with a unicorn.
[/Ayrik]
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CorellonsDevout
Master of Realmslore

USA
1731 Posts

Posted - 27 Oct 2016 :  02:46:40  Show Profile  Send CorellonsDevout an AOL message Send CorellonsDevout a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Especially since the planes are infinite (or at least nearly so).

Sweet water and light laughter
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sleyvas
Great Reader

USA
5039 Posts

Posted - 27 Oct 2016 :  13:51:23  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I prefer that the take somewhat of 4e that the planes are not infinite be taken. HOWEVER, I would submit that say the seven heavens of the realms crystal sphere probably has some kind of "link" where you can walk through X area and go to the "seven heavens" of some other prime material plane. Similarly though, the "seven heavens" of Toril can also be severed from all these others and become a finite plane of its own. I then submit that some entities know how to take several of these finite planes and combine them together, such that Orcus for instance can actually exist in several different home dimensions that may all be subtly different.... and he can die in one and it not necessarily affect the others..... but there may be something that can be done to eliminate him from them all at once (like what Kiaransalee supposedly did when Tenebrous was formed). Learning that particular trick of separating themselves would be something that separates the common demon lords from the great ones, and it may be very hard to maintain and require a lot of soul energy.

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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Quale
Master of Realmslore

1754 Posts

Posted - 27 Oct 2016 :  20:21:25  Show Profile Send Quale a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by dazzlerdal



Are there any other official or homebrew ones that people care to propose.




my homewbrew if that helps any, it's a mix of D&D cosmology, Pathfinder, Midgard, mythology ...

Ether - chaotic ''sea'' of demiplanes, proto-matter, and new souls, includes some FR realms like Brightwater, or Gates of the Moon

Heaven - includes Celestia from the Great Wheel, FR House of the Triad, Norse Asgard, Greek Olympus, Chinese Tian, Egyptian Heliopolis, Sumerian Ekur ...

Paradise - Elysium, gnomish Golden Hills, halfling Green Fields, Celtic Mag Mell, Eden, Egyptian Aaru, Persian apiri-Daeza, Nirvana ...

Chaos - similar to Limbo, Maelstrom from Pathfinder, and the Elemental Chaos from 4e (without the Abyss), includes Norse Ginnungagap, Egyptian Nu, Hebrew Tehom, Indian Garbhodaka, Chinese Wuji...

Nexus - similar to the Outlands, except it's just one ''island'', the opposite side contains FR's Fugue and Pathfinder's Boneyard, additionally this astral sea has realms like Greek Asphodel, Celtic Low Road, Persian Hamistagan...

Axis - Mechanus

Nether - similar to Shadowfell and the Grey Waste, includes FR Barrens of Doom and Despair, Eberron's Dolurrh, Celtic Annwn, Hebrew Sheol, Sumerian Irkalla, Chinese Yin Jian, Japanese Yomi...

Hell - Baator plus other similar mythological hells, Gehenna, Kurnugia, Jigoku, Peklo, Jahannam, Neraka, Diyu...

Abyss - mostly the same, also contains FR Blood Rift, Fated Depths, Fury's Heart etc., Pandemonium, Abaddon, Abzu...

Edited by - Quale on 27 Oct 2016 20:23:31
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Ayrik
Great Reader

Canada
6139 Posts

Posted - 27 Oct 2016 :  23:42:52  Show Profile Send Ayrik a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas

... I would submit that say the seven heavens of the realms crystal sphere probably has some kind of "link" where you can walk through X area and go to the "seven heavens" of some other prime material plane. Similarly though, the "seven heavens" of Toril can also be severed from all these others and become a finite plane of its own. I then submit that some entities know how to take several of these finite planes and combine them together ...
Why should the "peak" of Mount Celestia in the Seven Heavens be any more (or any less) significant than the "cornermost" canopy layer of Arborea, the "deepest" trench below the floor of Asmodeus's Citadel of Hell, or at the "bottom" of the unending Abyss? Or indeed any more (or any less) significant than the most rarified and remote regions of Elysium, Hades, Mechanus, or Limbo??

I agree that only the most truly exceptional entities could expect to prevail within these extremely perilous planar regions. And that Orcus might qualify among these, lol. The main problem I foresee with this model is that nobody else in the universe could ever access these regions, let alone survive within them or access these links to parallel universes.

One thing seems certain, limiting entire universes to comparatively very few uber-powers suggests something even greater prohibits them from (mis)using their universe-monopolizing powers in some way which shifts the eternal balance of everything - otherwise things wouldn't be balanced, they'd be monopolized, lol. I wouldn't want to place my faith in even the loftiest and purist of Lawful Good entities responsibly refraining from interfering with the entire cosmos, lol, and I certain wouldn't expect a Chaotic Evil entity (or a guy like Orcus) to show restraint and show respect for keeping the cosmos intact.
So - if indeed a very few beings can access/control/use such multi-universe links, then either these links have little impact on the integrity of the D&D universe or something bigger and scarier prevents permanent Bad Things ever happening.

(I digress, but perhaps D&D edition changes are what happens when the D&D cosmos is contaminated by other universes, lol.)

Eat lots of garlic - it keeps the elves and vampires away.
Don't stick your sword into dragons, you just don't know where they've been.
Avoid stepping on halflings. They stick to your boots, will smell awful, and are impossible to scrape off.
Ah, of course. Never play leapfrog with a unicorn.
[/Ayrik]
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
13135 Posts

Posted - 27 Oct 2016 :  23:46:31  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
@Quale - Now you've got me thinking about those 'border areas' (demi-planes) as well. You always get my mind wandering in new directions.

As part of all this 'Mortality creates Reality' theory, or if you prefer, "your personal reality is rooted in your beliefs", its all part of the system of divine ascension. Some mortals do this by accident, one way or another, and others do it on-purpose ('God-Kings', etc). In the case of the ones that happen 'spontaneously', its usually through a form of 'hero worship', either directly or indirectly. Elminster was consider a demi-god in the K-T material, before 4e hammered it home with their system of 'Exarchs'. Not that people worshiped him per se, but by believing in him and how powerful he was (fame), he was on the threshold of 'godhood'. Of course, Mystra claims to have made it thus with her whole 'Chosen' thing, but what if that is also just a 'con' by the gods? What if she lets her church - a faith that is world-wide (unlike most other Faerūnian deities) - know about the Chosen; wouldn't that instantly give them the 'fame' (and notoriety, which is the flip-side) to become demi-gods right then? She may have slapped them with some handy powers, but I think their 'status' in the divine hierarchy was created by mortal belief. "Speak it, and make it so". Being the god of magic, I think Mystra understands how all this works as well as Leira does: Illusion is REAL if you believe it.

But I think something happens when you get that 'divine spark' - something incomprehensible is created, that can never truly be taken away. As part of my 'Overmind' theory, what that means is that once a being is considered 'divine' by a collective consciousness, it can never be destroyed (unless, maybe, that consciousness itself is destroyed, which equates to genocide). That is why when a deity 'dies' (banished, whatever), its 'core essence' just enters some sort of stasis. Unlike a regular mortal, who's 'core essence' (soul?) gets shunted into some afterlife or another. That means that no matter how 'dead' a god is, it can always be 'reawakened' through belief. And maybe, thats all the resurrection-type spells are - 'hacks' that allow belief (of the people performing the spell and wanting it to work) to work on a mortal 'core essence' and return it to the world. The physical body doesn't matter, except as an 'anchor' to bring the person back (the Law of Association in magic). Once the 'soul' is returned to the mortal world, a new body is formed anyway. And as we know, gods create their physical forms at will, and can make multiple ones, and even ones that look a specific way (sex, etc). So really, the difference between 'gods' and 'mortals' is just a matter of degree - you put enough mortals together, or enough of them and a decent 'power source' (like magic), and anything can be 'brought back', no matter how dead it is.

The Planes
My own thoughts here is that they are NOT 'infinite', BUT, are so incomprehensibly vast that they may as well be to a mortal. Not just in 3 dimensions, but in (at least) 11 dimensions, hence, 'incomprehensible'.

I think nearly all 'planer pathways' are once-again part of human (mortal) perception. Since gods do not need to travel physically anywhere, they are merely a mortal convention. A god just wants to appear outside the gates of another god's domain, and they do. Since I think 'godly domains' are really just the inside of that god's own mind (they actually don't need room because they have no real 'physicality' in the mortal sense), we are talking simply about telepathy here - one god's mind visiting another's. Humans need the concept of 'pathways' because of the limitations of their minds.

Now, that means the whole concept of 'Dogma' comes back in - if a god can make his faithful believe there is some sort of 'back door' into another god's realm, and that belief is strong enough, could the deity sneak into the other god's realm (enter their mind uninvited)? I suppose you'd need more followers than that god, to 'empower' that belief (dogma). Hmmmm.... 'Dogma' spelled backwards is (I) Am God.

And since that word just reminded me of the great movie by the same name, there is some cool lore we can take from it, despite its over-all silliness. My whole concept of 'Dogma' actually stems from there. Mortal belief creates the rules. We've touched upon the 'incomprehensible' nature of most things divine in the thread, and one of my favorite parts of that movie is the 'Voice of God' (Metatron). Basically, god's Voice has its own 'avatar' because her real voice would kill mortals that hear it. I really like that, because it really plays-up to the whole 'you can't even comprehend/handle god' in its pure form. And whilst looking that up, I hadn't realize it was played by Alan Rickman - no wonder I loved it!

Anyhow, by leaving the exact nature of the cosmology both 'fluid' and 'incomprehensible', its very easy to marry ANY setting to any other. In the cases of cosmologies like the one in Eberron, my 'neighborhoods' theory comes into play - that each world has a very specific place within other planes that 'align' with it. People from the same world will generally appear in the same area of a plane (this is all relative, because we ARE speaking abut near-infinite planes, so 'nearby' could mean a thousand miles away, or more). Thus, someone from FR could theoretically 'walk' to a place in the astral, or ethereal, or feywild, or shadowfel, etc, etc... and be able to 'step out' into that other world. Usually this is done with 'Astral ships' or some-such, which makes this travel MUCH faster. Without the ship, or some other 'cosmic conveyance', the trip could take years, even centuries (picture trying to walk to Mars... then picture trying to walk to anther solar system!). In the case of Eberron, and other, 'closed' spheres (settings), the inhabitants of the prime World linked to those 'neighborhoods' believe that it is finite, and that there is an impassable barrier, so they can never move through it and travel to those other worlds. They BELIEVE there is nothing beyond that barrier, and so that is the 'truth' for them. So Eberron's cosmology is only true for THEM, and really, those are just 'bubbles' within the greater planes - or 'neighborhoods'. Someone from outside should be able to walk right into Eberron's cosmology (unless they've encountered people from there, and have already folded those beliefs into their own... 'faith' is very tricky like that).

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 28 Oct 2016 02:12:19
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sleyvas
Great Reader

USA
5039 Posts

Posted - 28 Oct 2016 :  01:01:54  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik

quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas

... I would submit that say the seven heavens of the realms crystal sphere probably has some kind of "link" where you can walk through X area and go to the "seven heavens" of some other prime material plane. Similarly though, the "seven heavens" of Toril can also be severed from all these others and become a finite plane of its own. I then submit that some entities know how to take several of these finite planes and combine them together ...
Why should the "peak" of Mount Celestia in the Seven Heavens be any more (or any less) significant than the "cornermost" canopy layer of Arborea, the "deepest" trench below the floor of Asmodeus's Citadel of Hell, or at the "bottom" of the unending Abyss? Or indeed any more (or any less) significant than the most rarified and remote regions of Elysium, Hades, Mechanus, or Limbo??

I agree that only the most truly exceptional entities could expect to prevail within these extremely perilous planar regions. And that Orcus might qualify among these, lol. The main problem I foresee with this model is that nobody else in the universe could ever access these regions, let alone survive within them or access these links to parallel universes.

One thing seems certain, limiting entire universes to comparatively very few uber-powers suggests something even greater prohibits them from (mis)using their universe-monopolizing powers in some way which shifts the eternal balance of everything - otherwise things wouldn't be balanced, they'd be monopolized, lol. I wouldn't want to place my faith in even the loftiest and purist of Lawful Good entities responsibly refraining from interfering with the entire cosmos, lol, and I certain wouldn't expect a Chaotic Evil entity (or a guy like Orcus) to show restraint and show respect for keeping the cosmos intact.
So - if indeed a very few beings can access/control/use such multi-universe links, then either these links have little impact on the integrity of the D&D universe or something bigger and scarier prevents permanent Bad Things ever happening.

(I digress, but perhaps D&D edition changes are what happens when the D&D cosmos is contaminated by other universes, lol.)




No, you're not getting what I'm saying. There's say a seven heavens for Greyhawk and a seven heavens for Toril. If Toril's is invaded and destroyed, that wouldn't mean that the seven heavens of Toril is destroyed. However, by having them linked, you could still follow the cosmology idea that "the seven heavens is infinite".

Similarly, this would allow the planes to come and go in relation to a given crystal sphere. This would be kind of like how Eberron has some planes that are periodically easier and harder to access. Now, how does this "planar rotation" occur? It doesn't matter, because its based on what a given DM wants to have occur with his game.

Now, does this concept mesh well with a planescape campaign? The simple answer here is "it can". There may be multiple cities that are actually "at the center of things" like the one with the Lady of Pain. Its just that the "center of things" for each of these cities just may not have access to certain planes and its residents just don't realize it given the enormity of things.

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
13135 Posts

Posted - 28 Oct 2016 :  02:50:39  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Its very similar to my 'neighborhood' theory I mentioned above.

EVERY plane has corresponding places within all the other planes. 'Spheres', 'Bubbles', 'Domains', neighborhoods - all basically the same thing. Little pockets of a greater plane that correspond to little pockets of other planes, and most especially the Prime Material - being the 'Plane of Physicality', it represents the anchoring point for all the others.

So picture the D&D Prime Material Plane (Spelljammer) flattened-out. All those 'Crystal Spheres' would be like bubbles in a sheet of bubble wrap. Then imagine that ALL of them correspond to other 'bubbles' within the Shadowfel, Feywild, Arborea, The Seven Heavens, Baator, etc, etc - other sheets of 'bubble wrap' laid-out above and below the first one, with the bubbles lining-up. That means that while all those planes are nigh-infinite, they have within them these little 'neighborhoods' where anyone crossing from one plane to another would appear. Moving between them is VERY hard, because the further you get from these 'anchor points', the more distorted time & space become, and you could get lost for a million lifetimes between them. One could even use these for fast travel, if the plane you are entering is smaller then the one you are from: I think it works this way for both the Feywild and the shadowfel - you can enter the feywild, travel through it for a few hours, and then re-emerge in the prime (FR) and be hundreds of miles away from where you started, because the distance has been 'compressed' by the nature of the planer topology itself. This ties into my (and Gray Richarson's) theories on how Spelljamming really works. You could even compare it to 'Hyperspace' in scify settings - you leave normal space into another dimension which 'shortens' your trip (so yeah, D&D magic works the same way Quantum Physics does - ain't that a hoot?)

So what you are both talking about is all the same thing. There are actual 'Planes' (dimensions), and then what D&D characters perceive as planes, which are really just their 'local neighborhood' within the greater plane. Lots of 'little heavens' within the vast 'Seven Heavens' of the Planescape. Also, the greater your 'universal' knowledge of the multiverse is, the more you can take advantages of connections that others aren't even aware exist. For 'GOD' (Greatest Over-Deity), all points in time and space overlap, so all things are possible and co-exist (to it/him/her/whatever). I suppose you can think of it like this - the higher-up you are on the 'Divine Food-Chain', the easier it is for you to 'fold space' and make connections, which allows for all sorts of fun things (ie, gives you more power than 'lesser beings'). GOD wouldn't even recognize 'planes' as such, because they would be artificial boundaries to it. Everything is based on perception.

And Ed has said a lot of his 'planer' concepts come from Roger Zelazney's Chronicles of Amber, which pretty-much says the same thing. 'Amberites' are gifted humans (or near-humans) who CAN see these connections and make them, and thus, 'walk between the worlds'. Basically, like 'little gods'. Or like MtG's Planeswalkers. If you want to look at it another way, instead of 'seeing' something others don't, maybe they are 'erasing' the artificial (perception) boundaries that others have erected. Deities don't need to walk from one plane to another, they merely think about that place, and then step through. They can only be 'blocked' if they are trying to enter a space claimed by another god (godly domain, etc).

I think maybe thats what a lot of these 'wars of the faithful' are about; a deity may need to change something (some 'rule') thats written into the dogma of another deity who has greater influence over the local reality. For example, Cyric wants control over magic, but Mystra is there to 'block' him. Everyone on Toril knows Mystra is 'in charge of all magic' (which may just be a 'rumor' she started herself), and because of this pervasive belief, Cyric CAN'T usurp the mantle of 'god of magic'. However, suppose he wrote some sort of book that changed people's minds? If the Cyrinishad could make everyone believe the lies contained therein, they are no longer lies - they become the 'new truth'. I don't know if Cyric figured this out for himself, or with Mask's help (or Shar's, or even Leira's), but somehow he KNEW that a lie is only a lie so long as others believe something differently. Napoleon said, "history is a story agreed upon", and I think he was more right than he ever could have realized. The only difference between fact and fiction is one's belief in it.

But now I'm starting to wax real-world philosophical.

There is another RW saying - "there is a fine line between insanity and genius". And we all know Cyric's nuts. He could have figured-out the true nature of the universe on his own.

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 29 Oct 2016 00:07:05
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Korginard
Learned Scribe

USA
126 Posts

Posted - 28 Oct 2016 :  19:17:00  Show Profile  Visit Korginard's Homepage Send Korginard a Private Message  Reply with Quote
So, we can see why Shar was able to achieve what Cyric failed to do. She was able to "create" Shadow Magic and the Shadow Weave as something different and possibly in opposition to Arcane Magic and the Weave. She was able to convince people of how different this "New" form of magic was, and was so successful in doing so that Shadow Magic is often able to confound Arcane Magic.
In Theory, Aupenser or another god could duplicate this with Psionics. Convince enough people that this "New" form of Mind Magic is something different then the Arcane or Divine magic they are used to. If people accept this, the belief allows that Psionics are different, and thus not within Mystra's ability to control or deny access to. If enough people believe in how different this "Psionics" stuff is, than it could alter the way Psionics and Magic interact with one another.
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sleyvas
Great Reader

USA
5039 Posts

Posted - 28 Oct 2016 :  23:42:20  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

Its very similar to my 'neighborhood' theory I mentioned above.

EVERY plane has corresponding places within all the other planes. 'Spheres', 'Bubbles', 'Domains', neighborhoods - all basically the same thing. Little pockets of a greater plane that correspond to little pockets of other planes, and most especially the Prime Material - being the 'Plane of Physicality', it represents the anchoring point for all the others.

So picture the D&D Prime Material Plane (Spelljammer) flattened-out. All those 'Crystal Spheres' would be like bubbles in a sheet of bubble wrap. Then imagine that ALL of them correspond to other 'bubbles' within the Shadowfel, Feywild, Arborea, The Seven Heavens, Baator, etc, etc - other sheets of 'bubble wrap' laid-out above and below the first one, with the bubbles lining-up. That means that while all those planes are nigh-infinite, they have within them these little 'neighborhoods' where anyone crossing from one plane to another would appear. Moving between them is VERY hard, because the further you get from these 'anchor points', the more distorted time & space become, and you could get lost for a million lifetimes between them. One could even use these for fast travel, if the plane you are entering is smaller then the one you are from: I think it works this way for both the Feywild and the shadowfel - you can enter the feywild, travel through it for a few hours, and then re-emerge in the prime (FR) and be hundreds of miles away from where you started, because the distance has been 'compressed' by the nature of the planer topology itself. This ties into my (and Gray Richarson's) theories on how Spelljamming really works. You could even compare it to 'Hyperspace' in scify settings - you leave normal space into another dimension which 'shortens' your trip (so yeah, D&D magic works the same way Quantum Physics does - ain't that a hoot?)

So what you are both talking about is all the same thing. There are actual 'Planes' (dimensions), and then what D&D characters perceive as planes, which are really just their 'local neighborhood' within the greater plane. Lots of 'little heavens' within the vast 'Seven Heavens' of the Planescape. Also, the greater your 'universal' knowledge of the multiverse is, the more you can take advantages of connections that others aren't even aware exist. For 'GOD' (Greatest Over-Deity), all points in time and space overlap, so all things are possible and co-exist (to it/him/her/whatever). I suppose you can think of it like this - the higher-up you are on the 'Divine Food-Chain', the easier it is for you to 'fold space' and make connections, which allows for all sorts of fun things (ie, gives you more power than 'lesser beings'). GOD wouldn't even recognize 'planes' as such, because they would be artificial boundaries to it. Everything is based on perception.

And Ed has said a lot of his 'planer' concepts come from Roger Zelazney's Chronicles of Amber, which pretty-much says the same thing. 'Amberites' are gifted humans (or near-humans) who CAN see these connections and make them, and thus, 'walk between the worlds'. Basically, like 'little gods'. Or like MtG's Planeswalkers. If you want to look at it another way, instead of 'seeing' something others don't, maybe they are 'erasing' the artificial (perception) boundaries that others have erected. Deities don't need to walk from one plane to another, they merely think about that place, and then step through. They can only be 'blocked' if they are trying to enter a space claimed by another god (godly domain, etc).

I think maybe thats what a lot of these 'wars of the faithful' are about; a deity may need to change something (some 'rule') thats written into the dogma of another deity who has greater influence over the local reality. For example, Cyric wants control over magic, but Mystra is there to 'block' him. Everyone on Toril knows Mystra is 'in charge of all magic' (which may just be a 'rumor' she started herself), and because of this pervasive belief, Cyric CAN'T usurp the mantle of 'god of magic'. However, suppose he wrote some sort of book that changed people's minds? If the Cyrinishad could make everyone believe that lies contained therein, they are no longer lies - they become the 'new truth'. I don't know if Cyric figured this out for himself, or with Mask's help (or Shar's, or even Leira's), but somehow he KNEW that a lie is only a lie so long as others believe something differently. Napoleon said, "history is a story agreed upon", and I think he was more right than he ever could have realized. The only difference between fact and fiction is one's belief in it.

But now I'm starting to wax real-world philosophical.

There is another RW saying - "there is a fine line between insanity and genius". And we all know Cyric's nuts. He could have figured-out the true nature of the universe on his own.



Yeah, exactly. Kind of like some people think they feywild is faerie, and some people think the feywild is just a local reflection of Toril and that there's a separate plane known as faerie that has ties to the feywild. They're both kind of right.

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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Ayrik
Great Reader

Canada
6139 Posts

Posted - 29 Oct 2016 :  00:53:42  Show Profile Send Ayrik a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I don't accept the 4E explanation that Shar and Cyric (and even Mystra) have powers spanning the entire cosmos. Certainly they are greatly powerful in the Realms, perhaps even some other worlds, as well as whatever planar regions they inhabit. Pre-4E had no such cosmos-spanning uberpowers - even entities like Ao, the Lady of Pain, the Ouroborus, and Asmodeus had limits.

Eat lots of garlic - it keeps the elves and vampires away.
Don't stick your sword into dragons, you just don't know where they've been.
Avoid stepping on halflings. They stick to your boots, will smell awful, and are impossible to scrape off.
Ah, of course. Never play leapfrog with a unicorn.
[/Ayrik]
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CorellonsDevout
Master of Realmslore

USA
1731 Posts

Posted - 29 Oct 2016 :  03:57:28  Show Profile  Send CorellonsDevout an AOL message Send CorellonsDevout a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I'very always liked the planes and godly stuff. One of my favorite aspects of the Realms.

Sweet water and light laughter
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KanzenAU
Senior Scribe

Australia
478 Posts

Posted - 16 Feb 2017 :  13:14:22  Show Profile Send KanzenAU a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Apologies for the slight thread-resurrection, but I've been thinking about how to reconcile the World Tree and the Great Wheel a lot...

I'm now imagining that a plane like Dwarfhome (World Tree) is a plane shared by the Dwarven Pantheon between the planes of the Great Wheel. For instance, you enter the halls of Moradin in Erackinor on Mount Celestia (Great Wheel), and find yourself within the enormous dwarven mountain known as Dwarfhome. From there, you can traverse the inside of the mountains to Marthammor Duin's Cavern of Rest, from which you can step out to Ysgard (Great Wheel). In this way, these "extra planes" from 3e are almost like extra routes, similar to the River Oceanus and the Veins of Olympus in Planescape. But they're not JUST routes - they're a plane in themselves.

Another example could be Dweomerheart. It's its own plane in the World Tree, and it exists on Elysium in the Great Wheel. So what if by entering "Dweomerheart" on Elysium you find yourself able to travel away from Elysium to the subrealms of Velsharoon on Gehenna & Azuth on Arcadia - all part of the larger "Dweomerheart" - and from there leave those places to Gehenna and Arcadia as you wish. Alternately, you could enter Velsharoon's realm of Death's Embrace on Gehenna (the dark part of Dweomerheart), and travel through greater Dweomerheart to the "Dweomerheart" part of Elysium - and then out to Elysium itself.

It makes the planes a LOT more interconnected as far as travel goes, but perhaps these routes could be restricted to deities, proxies, and petitioners.

I think this could work, and explain how both World Tree and Great Wheel models are BOTH true, and not just how mortals view things. Thoughts?

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Edited by - KanzenAU on 16 Feb 2017 13:31:02
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Wooly Rupert
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My spin has been that the planes of the Great Tree are actually just divine realms or planar layers on the Great Wheel. It's not the best explanation, given that the 3E designers were basically rewriting the planes from the ground up, for no readily apparent reason -- but it is, to me, the simplest way to reconcile the two.

Also, I don't think the planes are really arranged as a wheel, because that doesn't allow for squeezing others in, and technically, there's no shape that can contain infinite planes. My spin is that the Wheel structure is defined by the gate-towns of the Outlands. The gate-towns lead to the planes, and the towns are themselves laid out in a circle, so the perception is that the planes themselves are thus laid out the same way.

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KanzenAU
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

My spin has been that the planes of the Great Tree are actually just divine realms or planar layers on the Great Wheel. It's not the best explanation, given that the 3E designers were basically rewriting the planes from the ground up, for no readily apparent reason -- but it is, to me, the simplest way to reconcile the two.

Do you explain how Velsharoon's home plane is Dweomerheart but his domain is in Gehenna? I would like to just place the 3e planes as layers on the Great Wheel too, but it seems like too much of a contradiction if Velsharoon's home is not on Gehenna, but on Elysium. Of course, ignoring one set of lore solves this problem, but I'm interested to hear how you handle it.
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

Also, I don't think the planes are really arranged as a wheel, because that doesn't allow for squeezing others in, and technically, there's no shape that can contain infinite planes. My spin is that the Wheel structure is defined by the gate-towns of the Outlands. The gate-towns lead to the planes, and the towns are themselves laid out in a circle, so the perception is that the planes themselves are thus laid out the same way.


I really like this. I agree it doesn't make sense for supposedly infinite spaces to be able to exist alongside each other in a wheel. Yet, it does make sense that the "model" of a Great Wheel grew out of the planar experience of the Outlands.

Another way of looking at the planes is that they are infinite spaces (dimensions) that don't sit next to each other in any shape or form, and the paths between them and other such planes are conduits/wormholes in the form of gates. A few such methods of travel are able to be physically travelled (opposed to instantly transported), such as the roots of Yggdrassil and the River Oceanus.

The above seems to be as written, my suggestion is just that there are a quite a few more of these "physical conduits" - like Dwarfhome and Dweomerheart - that are experienced as planar spaces in themselves. I agree it's not as simple, but I think it balances the seemingly contradictory lore. When a dwarf talks about dying and going to Dwarfhome, or Moradin's halls on Mount Celestia, or Marthammor Duin's Cavern of Rest on Ysgard, he's essentially talking about different parts of the same place.

Edit:: We already know from Planescape (Great Wheel) that Yggdrasil, the World Ash, has roots and branches extending to many, if not all planes. What if this version of Yggdrasil is the SAME as 3e's World Tree? Then, Dwarfhome etc could be quite literally planes within its roots and branches - explaining the connection between Moradin's halls on Mt Celestia & Marthammor's cavern on Ysgard, while also explaining why that model is called "The World Tree". This way, the World Tree planes are the planes contained within or around the roots and branches of the World Tree, and the Great Wheel planes are those infinite planes the tree connects to. The "roots and branches" themselves wind through Dwarfhome etc, creating connections to it from Mt Celestia, Ysgard, and so on.

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Edited by - KanzenAU on 17 Feb 2017 01:16:27
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CorellonsDevout
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I agree with some of this. In regards to a dwarf saying Moradin's Hall or Dwarfhome, I always took it to be a different name for the same place. However, it makes sense that the planes are interconnected, or at least "neighbors". Since the multiverse in infinite and complex, I don't think the planes can be defined by one model, though this model just could be a way to "condense" it to mortal understanding.

Gods can visit neighboring planes, particularly if they are allies. I can see petitioners being allowed to this, too, though perhaps they have to be granted permission. That has always been my take on it. I do think that some of the planes are next to each other (kind of like how there is a parallel dimension to the mortal world). Not all are next each other, of course, but there *are* neighboring planes (but granted "neighboring" is relative, since they are infinite spaces).

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Edited by - CorellonsDevout on 17 Feb 2017 04:24:49
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sleyvas
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quote:
Originally posted by KanzenAU

Apologies for the slight thread-resurrection, but I've been thinking about how to reconcile the World Tree and the Great Wheel a lot...

I'm now imagining that a plane like Dwarfhome (World Tree) is a plane shared by the Dwarven Pantheon between the planes of the Great Wheel. For instance, you enter the halls of Moradin in Erackinor on Mount Celestia (Great Wheel), and find yourself within the enormous dwarven mountain known as Dwarfhome. From there, you can traverse the inside of the mountains to Marthammor Duin's Cavern of Rest, from which you can step out to Ysgard (Great Wheel). In this way, these "extra planes" from 3e are almost like extra routes, similar to the River Oceanus and the Veins of Olympus in Planescape. But they're not JUST routes - they're a plane in themselves.

Another example could be Dweomerheart. It's its own plane in the World Tree, and it exists on Elysium in the Great Wheel. So what if by entering "Dweomerheart" on Elysium you find yourself able to travel away from Elysium to the subrealms of Velsharoon on Gehenna & Azuth on Arcadia - all part of the larger "Dweomerheart" - and from there leave those places to Gehenna and Arcadia as you wish. Alternately, you could enter Velsharoon's realm of Death's Embrace on Gehenna (the dark part of Dweomerheart), and travel through greater Dweomerheart to the "Dweomerheart" part of Elysium - and then out to Elysium itself.

It makes the planes a LOT more interconnected as far as travel goes, but perhaps these routes could be restricted to deities, proxies, and petitioners.

I think this could work, and explain how both World Tree and Great Wheel models are BOTH true, and not just how mortals view things. Thoughts?




And these "links" as you say to the other planes may shift. For instance, dweomerheart does have say links to Toril... and if those links shifted to Abeir instead during the spellplague, maybe NEW links had to be established back to Toril. Maybe things that required Mystra's Chosen travelling around the world messing with leylines to reanchor "the weave"... which in essence "reseated" the links wherein dweomerheart could link itself back to Toril.

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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Wooly Rupert
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quote:
Originally posted by KanzenAU

quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

My spin has been that the planes of the Great Tree are actually just divine realms or planar layers on the Great Wheel. It's not the best explanation, given that the 3E designers were basically rewriting the planes from the ground up, for no readily apparent reason -- but it is, to me, the simplest way to reconcile the two.

Do you explain how Velsharoon's home plane is Dweomerheart but his domain is in Gehenna? I would like to just place the 3e planes as layers on the Great Wheel too, but it seems like too much of a contradiction if Velsharoon's home is not on Gehenna, but on Elysium. Of course, ignoring one set of lore solves this problem, but I'm interested to hear how you handle it.


You could spin it that as a servant of Mystra, Vellie has a home in Dweomerheart -- but it's like an apartment in a city he frequently does business in: it's provided by his employer, for his convenience, but his real home is the one in Gehenna.

Though my preferred approach is to just stick with the 2E lore. I've found a way to reconcile some of the differences that arise in post-2E material, but I'd rather not have to try to fix that which wasn't originally broken. Later editions broke a lot of what was established; my preference for older material isn't a nostalgia thing or resisting change, it's sticking with solid, working lore and not embracing the problematic stuff.

Don't get me wrong, I'll embrace the good stuff -- I've no objections at all, for example, to the loss of the racial class restrictions that we had prior to 3E. I may not embrace how it was implemented, but I'll take the change itself, if it's good, and provide my own spin, if I have to.

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KanzenAU
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Posted - 17 Feb 2017 :  04:16:58  Show Profile Send KanzenAU a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas

And these "links" as you say to the other planes may shift. For instance, dweomerheart does have say links to Toril... and if those links shifted to Abeir instead during the spellplague, maybe NEW links had to be established back to Toril. Maybe things that required Mystra's Chosen travelling around the world messing with leylines to reanchor "the weave"... which in essence "reseated" the links wherein dweomerheart could link itself back to Toril.

The links are even inherently mutable by being the roots and branches of the World Tree - it makes sense that links can grow and die off.

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CorellonsDevout
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I like the idea of the roots or branches being "links" or worlds. It reminds me somewhat of the Great Tree of Avalon books by TA Baron. The roots of the Great Tree were different worlds, accessible via portals.

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KanzenAU
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I've sat down and done a mockup of what a "map" combining both might look like.

Here's the map LINK.

Each line on the map represents a deity, with a couple exceptions. Taking the House of Knowledge (World Tree) as an example, we know of four deities living there: Gond, Oghma, Deneir, and Milil. Prior to the World Tree point of view, the following was the situation: Gond and Oghma lived in the Outlands, in the realms of Wonderhome and Tir na Og respectively. Deneir and Milil both lived in the Beastlands - both in the Library of All Knowledge. So, there are two strands from "House of Knowledge" to the Beastlands, and two to the Outlands. The two Outlands strands actually represent the realms of Wonderhome and the sub-division of Tir na Og known as the House of Knowledge (Oghma's 2e realm). The two Beastlands strands both represent the Library of All Knowledge, one for Deneir and one for Milil - but perhaps in a revision I will combine this into one strand representing the Library of All Knowledge. The one major exception to all this is the Blood Rift plane, for which I included the connections to the Nine Hells and the Abyss, despite there not being any deities connected to that plane.

I made the branches the "celestial" and "neutral" planes from the World Tree model, and made the roots the "fiendish" planes. I also put the Outlands directly in front of Yggdrasil, but that was an artifact of simplicity rather than how it would look in space. Despite being a "map", this is still abstract, and just a way to describe the connections between planes. The jarring colour scheme of the Great Wheel is due to the "colour pools" of the Astral that correspond to those planes.

All the deities whose planar home we were told about in 3e are represented here, as long as there was a difference between their 2e and 3e planes (Akadi, Grumbar etc aren't represented because they stayed in their Elemental Planes across editions). In a future version I might add the names of each deity to each strand (realm), but the deity-knowledgeable should be able to work it out if they know where they were in 2e and 3e. There are a couple of complex ones in there, like Urdlen, Tiamat, Null, and Eilistraee, who have multiple or differing World Tree realms.

Edit: Diirinka of the derro is the only deity in Faiths and Pantheons I wasn't sure what to do with. Every other deity had a defined plane in 3e, or was presumed to not move. It used to be in Pandemonium in 2e, but I'm guessing either Deep Caverns or Hammergrim for 3e.

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Edited by - KanzenAU on 17 Feb 2017 11:05:44
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sleyvas
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Posted - 17 Feb 2017 :  12:43:48  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by CorellonsDevout

I like the idea of the roots or branches being "links" or worlds. It reminds me somewhat of the Great Tree of Avalon books by TA Baron. The roots of the Great Tree were different worlds, accessible via portals.



Yeah, this idea very much fits within all established lore. In fact, if you look at the previous lore, its somewhat saying this same thing. By that I mean that within planescape, you'll read things that say like "there are no connections from the inner planes to the outer planes" then they'll turn around somewhere else and put a portal to the elemental plane of fire from some sun god's domain in the outer planes. There are all of these laws within planescape that are stated as "certainties" that they turn around and defy within their lore, then use "berks never truly understand the enormity of it of it.". Its kind of like the tool of Elminster or Volo using the tone of the uncertain narrator.

This fits not only the primes as well, but places like Eberron, if you look at how it talks about outer planes rotating in and out of connectivity with theirs (or being "closer" and "easier to access").

My thoughts are not to make these links simple portals/stargates, but to actually resemble to a degree the idea of tree roots in that there is length to them, and what's in that length of root may vary with time as these linkages between planes grow/shrivel/reshape themselves. This "tunnel" might not even belong to either plane on either end, but may naturally build themselves based on the whims of the "rulers" on both ends. It would be in my viewpoint that you don't even necessarily know when you are entering these "tunnels" unless you're really paying attention. It would be kind of like the idea of entering the wardrobe that goes to Narnia, you may see an opening in a wall, without realizing the other side of that wall is actually another room, you go in the opening walk down an hallway, find a door, open the door, traverse some forest path, find another door, open that door, walk down a hallway, then enter a room that's actually a part of Velsharoon's domain. That whole stretch of hallway and forest wouldn't necessarily belong to either planar endpoint, and it may be that the gods themselves can't control them.... it may be someone like Ao controlling/building those paths.... and if a god sends his servants into this path to control who comes through/guard it, they may find things happening to those servants that they don't want... so they may have to just protect the endpoints and send the occasional scout and hope said scout returns.

To a degree this may have been what happened with Lolth's abyssal and non-abyssal realm for a short time while she transferred things over (and yes, I know I will have pissed some people off for even mentioning that whole fiasco... but I accept that it happened, I just still haven't figured out the why, but I assume she foresaw the abyss moving from the outer planes to the inner planes). By that, I mean either SHE built the path OR she actually negotiated with Ao or some other entity to do so, and thus she created a godly realm which became linked directly to the realmspace crystal sphere (and who knows if its linked to others).

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas

Edited by - sleyvas on 17 Feb 2017 13:37:50
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KanzenAU
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Indeed. For the next version of that "map" I made, I plan to consolidate the threads (by realm) into continuing branches - but for now y'all will just have to pretend!

Large Edit:
One of the huge advantages of the "tree" approach is that a tree is a mutable thing, just like the World Ash is in Planescape. The branches and roots can die and grow as needed.

For the 4e transition, I'm imagining the destruction of Dweomerheart spreading like a ripple through the tree, spelling doom for the other planes within it - and only the most powerful gods are strong enough to pull their planes off the tree and reforge them in the Astral. These gods become the Greater Gods of the post-Spellplague pantheon, and each control their own remade plane (with the exception of Selune and Sune, who share the new Gates of the Moon). These planes are separated from both the Great Wheel and the World Tree.

Then, the Sundering happens. Ao decides the deities have finally learned their lesson, and allows the Faerunian deities' planes to reconnect to the Great Wheel and the restored World Tree. Bam, back to the 2e/3e status quo.

Edit 2:
For the 4e/Spellplague transition, it might have worked out thusly:
Corellon separates Arvandor from the Tree, and manages to bring the Golden Hills into Arvandor to save it from certain destruction.
Bane remakes the Barrens of Doom and Despair as "Banehold". Loviatar and Hoar stay on under his rule, and he brings Clangor under his power too. Abbathor flees the remade Dwarfhome to Banehold, and Tiamat ends up there too.
Torm, with Ilmater's aid, just hangs on to the fallen House of the Triad, and with the help of Bahamut, reforges it as "Celestia".
Silvanus, with Shiallia and Mielikki's aid, surge into Fury's Heart and take it over, renaming it as the Deep Wilds. Malar, Auril, and Umberlee swear allegiance to him, as Talos works something out with Gruumsh.
Lolth laughs maniacally as she rips the Demonweb Pits from the tree, floating around in her realm by herself.
Ghaunadaur similarly stays in its plane of the Dismal Caverns by itself.
Moradin saves the remaining powers of Dwarfhome, which continues on as Dwarfhome.
The reborn Amaunator forges a whole new plane called the Eternal Sun from what was left of the House of Nature. Siamorphe and Waukeen venture there and stay.
The Fugue Plane continues on, unaffected - unsurprisingly, as it was not on the World Tree.
Selune and Sune combine the Gates of the Moon and Brightwater into the new Gates of the Moon. Llira, Sharess, and Tymora, all formerly of Brightwater, stay on.
Chauntea flees the crumbling House of Nature as it changes under the risen Amaunator to Green Fields. She combines with Yondalla (or was Yondalla... I don't know this lore) and saves the plane.
Oghma saves the House of Knowledge. Gond and Milil swear their fealty.
Gruumsh (perhaps combined with the power of Talos) laughs as Nishrek splits off relatively unaffected.
Cyric giggles in the Supreme Throne.
Shar forges the Towers of Night out of the shadowstuff of her realm on the Plane of Shadow. She is joined there by Talona (fleeing Banehold), as well as the rivals Sseth (possibly Set?) and Zehir.
Tempus saves Warrior's Rest. Beshaba flees there (I believe there was always a connection with her realm of Blood Tor in the Abyss, so this makes sense).

So what happened to Heliopolis, Jotunheim, Fated Depths, Deep Caverns, and Dragon Eyrie? I don't remember hearing about their gods (mainly non-Faerunian pantheon) during 4e, so it's probably a safe bet that a greater god saved them.

Edit 3:
Made a follow-up 4e cosmology map too! Yggdrasil is reduced in this version, damaged by the disruption caused by the destruction of Dweomerheart. Note the lack of connection to the Great Wheel and the World Tree in the latter version.
1e-3e (and remade 5e) Great Wheel/World Tree cosmology map
4e Shattered cosmology map

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Edited by - KanzenAU on 17 Feb 2017 14:12:25
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sleyvas
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Posted - 18 Feb 2017 :  01:24:48  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Below is purely my own take, and does go against what canon says happened to dweomerheart. However, the question becomes "who was there that truly knows what happened and communicated it out effectively"

Rather than saying that Dweomerheart was destroyed (because we only have the viewpoint of those who weren't truly involved), I'm of the mindset that it simply moved its endpoint to Abeir (which fits with the whole spellplague happening thing being related). Along those same lines, I'd have Heliopolis ALSO shift to Abeir.

Of the others you mention...
Deep Caverns, hmmmm, this COULD shift given that its riddled with links to the abyssal layers. It could have also have become some conduit to the Far Realm.

Dragon Eyrie, given the whole piece where Tiamat went elsewhere, I'd shift this to Abeir. It would fit well and you could easily have some of the dragon deities not there when it shifted. For instance, Hlal is a messenger deity. Having Null, the draconic god of death, appearing in Abeir during the last century could be fun.

Fated Depths, probably wouldn't do anything with it other than maybe have its links to the abyss and the elemental plane of water drag it closer to the elemental chaos

Jotunheim, wouldn't do anything untoward with this plane and just have it keep its links

Part of me thinks that the whole story of Cyric getting "locked away" by the other gods too should change. Not that I like him much, but having him get dragged to Abeir is a much better explanation to me. Having someone else answering his prayers from his faithful for the last hundred years also tickles my funny bone (Lolth? Valigan Thirdborn? .... I would lean towards Leira but I want her entrapped in Abeir the last hundred years).

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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CorellonsDevout
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Posted - 18 Feb 2017 :  02:08:07  Show Profile  Send CorellonsDevout an AOL message Send CorellonsDevout a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I was looking for updates on Dweomorheart, because the SCAG doesn't say where the returned Mystra makes her home (though one could argue she is now living -in- the Weave). I even went to the wiki page, just to see, but it says nothing about it being restored, though it does say that most of its inhabitants went to the Fugue Plane or were re-assigned to another realm.

Or, perhaps it wasn't entirely destroyed, but rather "knocked" to another part of the Astral Plane, or "branch" or "spoke" lol. The GhotR said that only the greater gods managed to hold on to their realms, but I think they either allowed for allying, "lesser" deities to share their realm (some already did), or they helped them hold on to it. The list in the 4e campaign guide lists their realms, and all the major god realms were intact and inhabited by at least one greater god and then gods or exarchs (give or take). All the major divine realms seemed to be there. I wish the SCAG listed the planes of the gods. Even 4e did that.

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