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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
14037 Posts

Posted - 15 Aug 2017 :  04:25:15  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I've never separated them, and then when we throw Eladrin into the mix, the lines blur even further.

I think they're all 'fey', but LeShay are 'True Fey', and the rest were born 'after death came into the world', so they are 'lessened versions'. I always had something to that effect in my head, for years and years (when I ran GH), and then when I became an FR fan and read about the War of Light and Darkness, and how 'death' was born into world as part of that (and then later, in the GHotR it had the Fey Creator Race before the Cataclysm), I just figure 'there's my answer'. Thats why there are 'two tiers' of everything in FR/D&D.

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone

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Zeromaru X
Senior Scribe

Colombia
659 Posts

Posted - 15 Aug 2017 :  04:52:43  Show Profile Send Zeromaru X a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Aren't LeShay just eladrin by another name?

IIRC, the noble eladrin of current Sarifal claim to be "of the same stock as the mythical fey creator race of old." And if we go by 4e lore, noble eladrin are those that were called just eladrin in earlier editions (ghaele, bralani, shiere and such others—the non-playable eladrin variant in 4e).

EDIT:

Haven't noticed it before, but I'm a senior scribe now

Long ago, in the distant past, they fell into decay. The philosopher’s path... The river of glory... Even the saints resting in the darkness rise up without response and block the way...

Edited by - Zeromaru X on 15 Aug 2017 04:58:01
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
14037 Posts

Posted - 15 Aug 2017 :  05:49:34  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Grats on that.

With all the retcons to Eladrin (and everything else) over the past few editions, I'm not sure what the heck they are canonically anymore, but at the time the 'LeShay' name came about for the TRUE Fey, Eladrin were just a 'planer' variety of High (Gold/Silver, Gray/High) Elf, almost like 'elf angles', but not quite. Perhaps those were the 'first generation' born after death came into the world, so they retain the most features of their parent race (including the amazing longevity). LeShay were a bit more than that - practically a race of 'demigods' (which would make sense, if they were 25K plus year-old surviving Creatori).

Any living members of the Creator Races - the originals, not the 'tier 2' (or 3) 'knock-offs' - should be at least demigod status, and I am sure there a number of them in the multiverse being worshiped as gods on some worlds. I wonder if Spellweavers are from the same universe as the Sharn - the one where Tharizdun 'won' (the stuff from the Abyssal Plague books). Perhaps they, and the Sharn, and a few others are THAT universe's 'Creator Races'. Maybe thats why Jergal became so powerful.

And I am thinking about the Sojourner now as well. He looked like a Gith - could he have been a member of the First Humans? The race that was captured by the Illithids and enslaved? He talked about being 'from Toril' before there were any 'humans', or elves, or dwarves, etc. Could he have been from the original world, Abeir-Toril? Or even further back, to the One World? (I still want to make that one event - it simplifies everything else, even if I have twist and bend the heck out of canon to make that work).

'Branches': Thats my new theory. The Creatori (Creator Races) weren't races like we know now, they were clusters of similar beings. The Sarrukh were just one 'branch' of the Sauroid creator race. The various 'Gith' are branches of the 'mankind' Creator Race (note I didn't say 'human', because humans should just be one of the 'creations', like Lizardmen, or Aarakocra). Same would go for the Batrachi (thats an easy one, because their descendants are WILDLY different - from froggies to octopi), Aearee and Fey (and we KNOW fey come in LOTS of varieties!)

And what was that name someone mentioned a day or two ago? It was like a canon version of how I use my theoretical 'Ymir' (An Uber-Overgod that represents the original Prime Material plane... when it was just a single, flat plane).

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 15 Aug 2017 05:52:01
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Zeromaru X
Senior Scribe

Colombia
659 Posts

Posted - 15 Aug 2017 :  07:33:04  Show Profile Send Zeromaru X a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

With all the retcons to Eladrin (and everything else) over the past few editions, I'm not sure what the heck they are canonically anymore, but at the time the 'LeShay' name came about for the TRUE Fey, Eladrin were just a 'planer' variety of High (Gold/Silver, Gray/High) Elf, almost like 'elf angles', but not quite. Perhaps those were the 'first generation' born after death came into the world, so they retain the most features of their parent race (including the amazing longevity). LeShay were a bit more than that - practically a race of 'demigods' (which would make sense, if they were 25K plus year-old surviving Creatori).


LeShay are mentioned in 4e (in the article about Sarifal written by BRJ, in Dragon 376). They are the fey rulers of that nation. However, the FRCG specifically states that the rulers of Sarifal are "noble eladrin", or "sidhe lords" (as they're called in the Heroes of the Feywild sourcebook). And, in 4e lore, the noble eladrin are... like greater eladrin, compared with the playable version, that are like "lesser eladrin".

So, as I got it, LeShay are part of the noble eladrin, that also encompasses other types (the ones from Planescape, I presume) such as Bralani, Ghaele, Coure, Shiere and Shiradi (the latter are new ones, introduced in 4e), among others.

Hope this can help you with your theory.

Long ago, in the distant past, they fell into decay. The philosopher’s path... The river of glory... Even the saints resting in the darkness rise up without response and block the way...

Edited by - Zeromaru X on 15 Aug 2017 07:33:54
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Zeromaru X
Senior Scribe

Colombia
659 Posts

Posted - 15 Aug 2017 :  11:59:11  Show Profile Send Zeromaru X a Private Message  Reply with Quote
As we are talking about the Raven Queen and her potential inclusion in the FR canon... here is a small recap of her "core" story I've made for someone who asked about her in the Piazza forums. I guess we can twist them for our purposes, but I'm of the opinion that one must know the canon before doing changes, for those changes to be useful for everyone (not just for me... or the person doing the changes).

I drew from many sources, but if you need them, I will gladly provide them. From memory only: Dungeon 171 (Deities & Demigods: The Raven Queen), Dragon 411 (Winning Races: Kenku), and Dragon 427 (Channel Divinity: Nerull), and Divine Power (4e sourcebook).



The Raven Queen was once an especially powerful mortal (there is no mention of her original race in canon), who was either a powerful sorcerer-queen (who was also one of the first humans who learned magic directly from Corellon) or a mighty warrior, who died during the Dawn War (the timeline is shaky, but at this point there were mortals, as Nerull was killing them to raise armies of undead to fight on the side of the gods during the war... so, perhaps during the final stages?). The cause of her dead is conflictive in canon. She either died fighting in the war, or was a victim of one of the plagues unleashed by Nerull during this period of time. Regardless, fearing Nerull's actions and his ambitions to become "the King of all Gods", Corellon and Pelor, with aid of Sehanine and Moradin, strengthened her soul with more qualities than she had possessed in life: magical might, intellectual brilliance, shrewd discernment, unshakable courage, cold allure, and colder pride. This was done for Nerull to have a plaything to waste his time instead of trying to kill all mortals or follow his ambitions of being the King of the Gods.

So, Nerull took the bait: the soul enthralled him to the point he could not think in other stuff. So, he gave it a form and made her his queen. He called her "Nera" (this is not her true name, just the name Nerull gave to her after giving her a new form—her true name is forgotten and perhaps forever lost). Although "Nera" wanted nothing with Nerull, she was ambitious (perhaps a side effect of the strengthening of her soul?) and wanted to get Nerull powers for her, so she accepted his advances. Some say that Vorkhesis, the first of the sorrowsworn, is the fruit of this union (that maybe was born as a consequence of Nerull's... non-consensual advances on her).

During the final stages of the Dawn War, "Nera" finally was able to understand Nerull's ways to obtain power from the souls of the dead, and fed those souls, gaining immense powers. So, she fought against Nerull when the god was at his weakest (after a gruesome battle between Nerull and a primordial known as Athuam the Falling Sky) and killed him, absorbing his divinity. The other gods (who allowed this to happen, as they wanted to get rid of Nerull), fearing the appearance of a second Nerull, immediately moved and forbid her to take the portfolio of the dead, seeing the way she used the souls of the dead to kill Nerull. Thus, she was able only to become the goddess of death but not of the dead. She said that this was unjust, because she was unlike Nerull, and that soured her relationship with the other gods ever since.

Not long after, she made great efforts to circumvent this prohibition, like leaving Pluton to live in the Shadowfell, or expunging her true name from the cosmos, calling herself the Raven Queen from then on. She also sealed Nerull's holiest temple in a domain of dread, so Nerull cannot return to the world of the Nentir Vale (as Nerull still exists in some form—ie. its incarnation in the world of Oerth).

The Raven Queen, however, was able to get more power than the portfolio of death, thus becoming a major power in the Nentir Vale world. She aided Corellon in his battle against Lolth, and was able to stole Lolth's portfolio of fate, thus becoming known also in the Feywild as the power of destiny. And, in the War of Winter (a conflict that confronted god against god a few "years" —in god's reckoning— after the Dawn War) she asked over the porfolio of winter, that was the purvey of Khala, the original goddess of winter, as her payment for helping the gods to kill Khala. This was done because the Raven Queen was the only deity who knew how to kill gods in a way that they cannot easily return to life.

A few races believe they owe their existence to the Raven Queen. Kenkus believe themselves her first creations. According to their myths, her first action after her ascent to godhood was to to ascent normal ravens, transforming them in kenkus (this myth plays an important role in the novel "The Last Garrison"). They also believe they lost their ability to fly because they lost her favor when they turned to revere the demon lord Pazuzu, dividing kenku society into those who revere the demon lord and those who revere the Raven Queen.

The shadar-kai descent from her first human worshipers. According to this myth, when the Raven Queen was still a new denizen of the Shadowfell, a tribe of humans known as Shadar Kai approached to her and proposed a deal: they promised to serve as her mortal agents, and in exchange, they asked for incredibly long life and freedom from frailty. The Raven Queen accepted, and the tribe went to live in the Shadowfell, where they evolved in the race they are today. Their tribal name became the race's name when they interacted with people from the mortal world again.

The sorrowsworn are all ascended shadar-kai, that gained this status after doing great deeds in her service.

The revenants, as well, owe their existence to the Raven Queen, as she uses them as her agents in the mortal world.

The vryloka (living vampires) also believe that was one of her aspects, the Red Witch, the one who gave them the blessing of being vampires without the taint of undead.

Long ago, in the distant past, they fell into decay. The philosopher’s path... The river of glory... Even the saints resting in the darkness rise up without response and block the way...

Edited by - Zeromaru X on 15 Aug 2017 16:28:26
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sleyvas
Great Reader

USA
5818 Posts

Posted - 15 Aug 2017 :  16:48:08  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
love that different editions come up with different names for the same monster... vampyres... vryloka... many of the fey, etc.... no wonder we get confused.

Hey, look at my story I came up with in the other thread about the Raven Queen and Kiaransalee.... I think it holds weight, but I'm not as much up on the 4e lore, especially the dawn times stuff.

BTW, if someone could come up with the lore Markustay was talking about with the Raven Queen and the realms, I'd appreciate it. I remember there being something too, but its been so long I don't recall it. I remember people getting mad though. There was something a few months back though with Chris Perkins where he says she wasn't on sage advice when I google "raven queen forgotten realms".

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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CorellonsDevout
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USA
2012 Posts

Posted - 16 Aug 2017 :  00:01:25  Show Profile  Send CorellonsDevout an AOL message Send CorellonsDevout a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X

Aren't LeShay just eladrin by another name?

IIRC, the noble eladrin of current Sarifal claim to be "of the same stock as the mythical fey creator race of old." And if we go by 4e lore, noble eladrin are those that were called just eladrin in earlier editions (ghaele, bralani, shiere and such others—the non-playable eladrin variant in 4e).

EDIT:

Haven't noticed it before, but I'm a senior scribe now



Congrats on being a Senior Scribe. You've earned it Good posts.

If you're using the Rose of Sarifal for info on the eladrin of Sarifal, though, I wouldn't bother. That book can hardly be considered canon. It's the only FR book I have ever gotten rid of LOL. In 4e, eladrin was synonymous with sun/gold elves, and also the planar eladin (the elven "angels").

I remember reading The Last Garrison when it came out, but I don't remember many details (a few are coming back to me). I don't think I liked it much LOL.

Sweet water and light laughter

Edited by - CorellonsDevout on 16 Aug 2017 00:04:10
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
14037 Posts

Posted - 17 Aug 2017 :  15:10:24  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Yeah, I think 'Greater Eladrin' are really just Fey (didn't know there were so many 'branches' of them as well - I'll have to look at all of those), and 'Lesser Eladrin' are just High (Planer) Elves. Its just semantics, not really a racial thing (especially since they are technically the same race - its just that all the ones born after the Godwar are 'lessened' (mortal).

Fey, Sarrukh, Aearee, Batrachi, and ProtoGith (pre-humans, or 'The First Men') can no longer be born. This is why the few left (and there could be millions, but they are spread all over the multiverse now) have withdrawn from the world - they became isolationist to protect their numbers. If any are still 'fertile', they would still only give birth to the 'lesser variety of their races.

Conjecture:
Fey = Elf
Sarrukk = Sauroid (Saurial)
Aearee = Aarakocra
Batrachi = Troglodytes (one branch interbred with daemons and became the Slaad)
Protogith* = Humans


*I've called these guys 'The First men', and I've tried various other names. I don't want to use something Latin, like 'Hominid', even though that would be accurate. Saying 'gith' isn't accurate either, since the branches of that race are really all from some other, unnamed race, and are thus-named because they followed 'Gith' out of slavery. I've called them Blackmoorians, because I think Blackmoor was THE major human culture on the First World, but maybe if I just shorten it? Moorians? Sounds kind of cool, like Le'Moorians (so on Earth, we now call them 'Lemurians') Apparently Latin gets its 'la/le' from the ancient Fey language. LOL

I can SO see fey speaking French.

I also picture them being bigger, faster, stronger, smarter, etc., than 'modern man', like that big dude from the movie Prometheus (not quite that big, and much more 'normal' looking).

EDIT:
I just read this in the D&D5e Wiki, concerning gith and the githyanki -
"*Know* that Gith's heart was not Zerthimon's heart on this matter. She said that the war would continue. The *illithid* would be destroyed. Their flesh would be no more. Then the People would claim the False Worlds as their own. Gith told Zerthimon that they would be under the same sky in this matter. The words were like bared steel."

That one line (emboldened) jumps out at me - it appears my theory about them coming from 'The First World' (The True World?) may be correct. They consider all worlds in the Prime Material to be 'False Worlds', apparently.

Another theory I have is that the illithids are some sort of 'future Batrachi', that have come back in time to change the past (and save their race?) When I was working on an illithid-like adaption for Pathfinder (that I hoped would become PF canon, but then I lost interest in PF), I ad it where 'Squiddies' (Yeah, the look like the Squidbillies LOL) literally ate the jheads of their victims, and them 'hooked into' their nervous and other systems, 'riding' the human bodies like mounts (so basically, the squid-thing took the place of the person's head).

Personally, I think my version is even more horrific, and it allows me to come out with an something very similar to an illithid without violating someone else's copyrights (I also made sure to find dozens of similar creatures that do not belong to WotC/Hasbro, who were never challenged in court, and thus constitute the look of the creatures themselves as 'public domain'). Now that I am not using them (unless I still decide to do my own setting), I can borrow from myself and say those were the original illithids, and they've since evolved to their current form (where they merely need to eat the brain of their victims, and they 'inject' their eggs into them). That means those 'Squiddies' could have been Batrachi.

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 17 Aug 2017 15:32:48
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Zeromaru X
Senior Scribe

Colombia
659 Posts

Posted - 17 Aug 2017 :  23:53:02  Show Profile Send Zeromaru X a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

*I've called these guys 'The First men', and I've tried various other names. I don't want to use something Latin, like 'Hominid', even though that would be accurate. Saying 'gith' isn't accurate either, since the branches of that race are really all from some other, unnamed race, and are thus-named because they followed 'Gith' out of slavery. I've called them Blackmoorians, because I think Blackmoor was THE major human culture on the First World, but maybe if I just shorten it? Moorians? Sounds kind of cool, like Le'Moorians (so on Earth, we now call them 'Lemurians') Apparently Latin gets its 'la/le' from the ancient Fey language. LOL


WoW has the Vrykul.

quote:
Originally posted by Markustay


Another theory I have is that the illithids are some sort of 'future Batrachi', that have come back in time to change the past (and save their race?)


Aren't illithids just guys from the astromundi sphere who traveled back in time to avert the "end of the world"?

Long ago, in the distant past, they fell into decay. The philosopher’s path... The river of glory... Even the saints resting in the darkness rise up without response and block the way...

Edited by - Zeromaru X on 17 Aug 2017 23:55:42
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
14037 Posts

Posted - 18 Aug 2017 :  00:11:31  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Yes, but that doesn't mean they weren't something else, first. I mean, we all were (taking into account evolution, even though magical fantasy worlds don't use it). if they "came back from the future" to avert "the end of the world", that would infer they came from the end of time, which gives us PLENTY of time to say they were something else, or created by something else.

Suppose - in the original timeline - there were no elves. No nasty little pointy-ears mucking about where they don't belong. Tharizdun never hid the Black Diamond for the dwarves to find, and the Fey never fled Abeir-Toril, and the the elves were never 'created'. No 'Elven Sundering' which tapped into Ao's Sundering (the 'twinning of the worlds'), so the Great cataclysm never occurred on Abeir-Toril, and the world was not split apart (Yeah, I know... Ao didn't split the world because of what the Fey did, so maybe the Gods never had a war that time around). Whatever the elves did to alter the sundering (there is some descriptive text in Elaine Cunningham's Evermeet novel talking about the wide-spread destruction their ritual caused), the Creator races were never wiped-out, and the Batrachi lived long and prospered (eventually mutating into the illithids, or they genetically engineered the illithids form their own DNA).

The elves cast their ritual, and time changes. The entire history of the illithids is wiped-clean. Except a few manage to survive somehow. Maybe they had bases on some plane unaffected by time-distortions. Maybe they weren't even in the 'universe' at all - maybe they were outside of normal space-time in The Far realms. Whatever, that group that were left learned that their galaxy-spanning empire ceased to exist. So they take their super-science and jump back in time, to a point before they even existed (but their forebears may have). They somehow traced it back to the humans, so they went after them first. Unfortunately, the humans weren't the culprits (they must have been a 'trigger' for some other event in the sequence, like the one that caused The Dark God to go after the fey in the first place).

In the end, we find out its was their own 'going back in time' that started the sequence of events that erased their own future. Poor little Mindflayers... they crewed up BAD.


EDIT:
In some thread - it may have even been this one - someone mentioned the 'God of Humans', and he was 'unnamed'. But then there was other lore that pointed to another god, specifically - who was that? I could use that for this - What if Tharizdun was the 'God of Humans', and when the illithids came back in time, it was their repeated attacks on Humans (the Blackmoorians/proto-Gith) that drove Tharizdun to enter the Far Realms (where he perceived the illithids came from) and confront whatever Godlike entities dwelt there... only to become corrupted himself (thus causing the chain of events)?

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 18 Aug 2017 00:17:19
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
14037 Posts

Posted - 18 Aug 2017 :  00:28:05  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X

quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

*I've called these guys 'The First men', and I've tried various other names. I don't want to use something Latin, like 'Hominid', even though that would be accurate. Saying 'gith' isn't accurate either, since the branches of that race are really all from some other, unnamed race, and are thus-named because they followed 'Gith' out of slavery. I've called them Blackmoorians, because I think Blackmoor was THE major human culture on the First World, but maybe if I just shorten it? Moorians? Sounds kind of cool, like Le'Moorians (so on Earth, we now call them 'Lemurians') Apparently Latin gets its 'la/le' from the ancient Fey language. LOL


WoW has the Vrykul.
Interesting. I went back to playing WoW a couple of years ago, but stopped after about 6 months - i did not know about those guys. i also played Warcraft3, but stoped playing after Arthus had his little... problem. Thus, I must have missed these guys there, as well.

Funny, I've considered using 'giants' as the human creator race. Dragons are sometimes considered Creatori, and they warred with the giants, so it could all work (it would just wreak havoc on all the other stuff we have in FR and D&D). We could have said the dragons were a 'weapon' designed by the Sarrukh and Aearee (and maybe Batrach) to help fight against the 'human' (giantish) onslaught. Unfortunately, canon craps on all the fun we could have had with that.

One last thing - I've always felt the Krakentua (Kara-Tur) were just Giants/Titans infected with the 'illithid virus' (like Lizardmen-illithids, they did not work out so well).

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 18 Aug 2017 00:35:47
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Zeromaru X
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Colombia
659 Posts

Posted - 20 Aug 2017 :  00:29:55  Show Profile Send Zeromaru X a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Very well, I guess I've found your canon connection of The Raven Queen with the Realms. Gloomwrought. According to the Companions (Sundering novel, Drizzt saga), its was a Netherese city (until it became independent or something like that). It was the sister city of Thultanthar, in fact.

Gloomwrought is Core 4e, though (its in 4e Manual of the Planes and in the Shadowfell boxed set), and more importantly, this city is where the religion of TRQ is at its stronger across the Shadowfell (beyond Letherna, of course). This means that some ex-Netherese worship the Raven Queen.

So, here is. TRQ is canon Realms. Indirect canon Realms, yeah (in fact, is more like Strahd level of canonicity in the Realms), but is canon nonetheless.

Long ago, in the distant past, they fell into decay. The philosopher’s path... The river of glory... Even the saints resting in the darkness rise up without response and block the way...

Edited by - Zeromaru X on 20 Aug 2017 00:32:42
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
14037 Posts

Posted - 20 Aug 2017 :  05:47:56  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
And the shades worship Shar. Hmmmm...

I'm thinking more and more that TRQ was meant to be a 'less dreary Shar' for core. I think the only way any of that would work out is if she really was Shar's offspring (by a mortal? One of her Chosen? Knowing Elminster, he's probably the father. Its not like he'd kick Shar out of his bed.

And I think gods - most especially evil gods - would use children as 'Plan 'B' (in the same way Bane used Xvim). TRQ could be some sort of 'proto-Shar' - a 'living timebomb' that she can unleash on unsuspecting worlds (like whatever one she killed Nerull on - Nerath?)

So we know Shar is half-nuts to begin with; what if she's creating these 'hollowed out' aspects ('blank slates') with no memories of their past, and using them to establish herself on worlds beyond Toril? Or maybe, Shar IS a primordial (it makes sense that she would be... Mystryl too), and she needs deities (ascended mortals) to increase her power-base and interact with mortals (mystra doesn't have this problem - Ao always fuses her essence onto a mortal soul when he 'reboots' her). So maybe Shar is trying to get that extra something Mystra has - that 'human connection', and the only way to do that is to be 'born again' (like what Mystra did, or even what Bane did with Xvim).

And what if she actually did it already, long ago? (which is why the two were primordials but are now considered 'Gods') But what if something went wrong? The aspect she was using she lost her connection to (it changed too much?)

I don't particularly like this line of reasoning - just seeing were it takes me. I still like Cyrinishad's version best. I just want to figure out why we have this goddess - who is considered the 'sovereign of the Shadowfel' - walking around on Toril now, when thats Shar's home turf, and she's the 'head shadow in charge'. I am thinking she is letting her do this. So now I need that why?

I think it might be possible to marry this line of thought with Cyrinishad's theory - maybe Kiaransalee was the 'failed Shar puppet' (aspect). Maybe she was going to use Kia to spy on - and eventually kill and takeover - Lolth (the two do seem to have some sort of rivalry going - Lolth even tried to make her own copy of the Shadoweave). But instead, Lolth being lolth, she completely dominated Kia, and it altered her enough for Shar to lose her connection. Then the rest of what Cyrinishad had works out fine. And wouldn't THAT drive Shar nuts? A piece of godhood that was formerly hers ends up in Midnight's (Mystra's) hands?

So she has sex with a dark elf that lives on Threnody - a world where they worship Nerull. The kid grows up and becomes Nerull's consort, and then kills him... and then kills everyone else (sounds like Shar when she is in 'entropy mode'). She becomes a true God by doing all that, and then hooks up with lolth as Shar intended... and then it all goes south. It all works lore-wise, it is just extremely convoluted.

And all of this just made me think - Shar was getting pretty 'chummy' with Karsus. What if she got pregnant with his kid? What if she kept herself from having that child for a thousand years...

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 20 Aug 2017 15:56:31
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Zeromaru X
Senior Scribe

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Posted - 20 Aug 2017 :  07:07:59  Show Profile Send Zeromaru X a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Well... we know other gods messed with the Raven Queen's soul. Corellon and Amauna---Pelor, specifically. They wanted to get rid of Nerull. And we can add that perhaps they also wanted to foil Shar. So, they can be the "why this went south". This idea is good. Even better by the fact that Shar is stated to be something akin a primordial in the Sundering novels.

I can see Shar's and TRQ relationship must like that of Thanos and Gamora en the Guardians of the Galaxy movie.

Long ago, in the distant past, they fell into decay. The philosopher’s path... The river of glory... Even the saints resting in the darkness rise up without response and block the way...
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Markustay
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Posted - 20 Aug 2017 :  15:34:11  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Yeah - I think we're getting somewhere now, even though its very complicated. Shar is keeping 'hands off' The Raven Queen for now, because she is still hoping to slalvage her plan.

I'm thinking that Threnody may have been a world that was like Dambrath - a drow-dominated setting where humans were the underclass (so we'd have Crinti, which fixes a few things). Shar hooks-up with some important Drow Lord (probably a Crinti, to gain in-roads into both human and elven psyche/Overmind), and gets herself pregnant. Sometime down the road the child is born (Kiaransalee), becomes some sort of 'Dark Queen', and then kills all her own subjects. In fact, she may have even made a deal with Nerull ahead of time - told him she wanted to be 'his lieutenant' (consort), and she would "give him all the souls on Threnody". Of course, she had already established herself as an Exarch of his on Threnody, which means those souls were attached to him, through her. This enabled her to later double-cross him, and not only assume control over her own people's souls, but also free all the rest, destroying that aspect of Nerull (the one in-charge of Threnody, which would actually have started growing weaker without any mortal worshipers on Threnody... he hadn't thought of that).

She kills a world, and gains godhood... all part of 'Shar's (mommy's) plan. Then she hooks up with Lolth - tells her she can have death & undeath (of the drow) through her. Lolth takes the bait (or so Kia and Shar think). Unbeknowst to Kiaransalee, Shar had intended for Lolth to absorb Kia all along. She just assumed she would (because SHE would - they do have similar temperaments). But Lolth never did, either she was too smart (probably), or just didn't care enough, so instead she just completely dominated Kia. until after she became a greater Goddess. After her bid to create her own 'Demonweave' failed*, she instead went after ALL the other Dark Elven gods, even her own children (if she caught on to what Shar was attempting, she may have even done this to prevent someone 'back-dooring' her, eliminating all her own 'connections'). She never bothered to absorb Kia - she just made people forget about her. She wanted no part of that 'mini-me' Shar.

Now we go to Cyrinishad's theory. Asmodeus and/or Jergal may have even met with Shar, but I think I prefer this to be more along the lines of 'a pleasant surprise'. Jergal and Asmodeus offer the stored 'divinity' of TRQ to Kelemvor for Midnight's use, and what we have is a new goddess with connections to BOTH 'the Light & the Dark'. Because of that, she is probably much more like the original Mystryl than any of the Mystras, and it could be Shar is still trying to figure out how to use that to her advantage (does she even still have the Shadoweave?)

Also, is Kiaransalee back? If she is, that complicates matters even further...

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone

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Zeromaru X
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Posted - 20 Aug 2017 :  15:50:29  Show Profile Send Zeromaru X a Private Message  Reply with Quote
She is listed in the current drow pantheon, yes.

That's why I don't want to go with the Kiaransalee path for the Raven Queen.

Long ago, in the distant past, they fell into decay. The philosopher’s path... The river of glory... Even the saints resting in the darkness rise up without response and block the way...
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Markustay
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Posted - 20 Aug 2017 :  16:08:39  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Gotcha - that would be problematic. I wish WotC would stop making these 'sweeping decisions' without putting ANY thought into them. They had such a golden opportunity here to fix the Realms with this in-setting reboot, and they totally botched it.

I'm hoping we can fix some of that, in the south and east, with my maps and lots of lore from the good folks around here.

Oh, and despite all this - and my unexpected 'side project' that took off on its own life ({shakes fist} - curse you Krash!) - when I go back to my main project (its about a year now {sigh}), I am STILL going with the layout for the Realms I came up with, which is a tweaked (optimized) version of the canon Realms. As I put it once, "I managed to do what they were trying to do when they made the 3e map". So when I put that project up on the DMs Guild (eventually - I just have to finish these other couple of things, dammit!), those maps won't line-up with the 'canon' continental map I am currently putting the finishing touches on (I compressed the stuff west of Anauroch, so that its at the same latitudes it was in 3e, which made MUCH more sense, IMO). And trust me, The Realms are HUGE - no-ones going to notice the difference (unless you were traveling from Sembia to Icewind Dale, the changes in travel-time is negligible).

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 20 Aug 2017 16:10:05
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sleyvas
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Posted - 21 Aug 2017 :  02:57:44  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X

Very well, I guess I've found your canon connection of The Raven Queen with the Realms. Gloomwrought. According to the Companions (Sundering novel, Drizzt saga), its was a Netherese city (until it became independent or something like that). It was the sister city of Thultanthar, in fact.

Gloomwrought is Core 4e, though (its in 4e Manual of the Planes and in the Shadowfell boxed set), and more importantly, this city is where the religion of TRQ is at its stronger across the Shadowfell (beyond Letherna, of course). This means that some ex-Netherese worship the Raven Queen.

So, here is. TRQ is canon Realms. Indirect canon Realms, yeah (in fact, is more like Strahd level of canonicity in the Realms), but is canon nonetheless.



Haven't read that one yet, because I planned on trying to get through all the other Salvatore books... damn there's too much to read. Anything more said?

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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Zeromaru X
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Posted - 21 Aug 2017 :  03:29:38  Show Profile Send Zeromaru X a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Nothing more. The novel do not delve too much in the city's origins. It only dedicates it a paragraph. Don't even mention the Raven Queen, I just associate her because of the lore about the city in other sources (as the novel is more about bringing back the Companions than to deal with Drizzt and his travel to the Shadowfell).

And yeah, I also want to buy Salvatore books, but there are a lot of them.


Long ago, in the distant past, they fell into decay. The philosopher’s path... The river of glory... Even the saints resting in the darkness rise up without response and block the way...
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Irennan
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Italy
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Posted - 21 Aug 2017 :  03:44:51  Show Profile Send Irennan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

Yeah - I think we're getting somewhere now, even though its very complicated. Shar is keeping 'hands off' The Raven Queen for now, because she is still hoping to slalvage her plan.

I'm thinking that Threnody may have been a world that was like Dambrath - a drow-dominated setting where humans were the underclass (so we'd have Crinti, which fixes a few things). Shar hooks-up with some important Drow Lord (probably a Crinti, to gain in-roads into both human and elven psyche/Overmind), and gets herself pregnant. Sometime down the road the child is born (Kiaransalee), becomes some sort of 'Dark Queen', and then kills all her own subjects. In fact, she may have even made a deal with Nerull ahead of time - told him she wanted to be 'his lieutenant' (consort), and she would "give him all the souls on Threnody". Of course, she had already established herself as an Exarch of his on Threnody, which means those souls were attached to him, through her. This enabled her to later double-cross him, and not only assume control over her own people's souls, but also free all the rest, destroying that aspect of Nerull (the one in-charge of Threnody, which would actually have started growing weaker without any mortal worshipers on Threnody... he hadn't thought of that).

She kills a world, and gains godhood... all part of 'Shar's (mommy's) plan. Then she hooks up with Lolth - tells her she can have death & undeath (of the drow) through her. Lolth takes the bait (or so Kia and Shar think). Unbeknowst to Kiaransalee, Shar had intended for Lolth to absorb Kia all along. She just assumed she would (because SHE would - they do have similar temperaments). But Lolth never did, either she was too smart (probably), or just didn't care enough, so instead she just completely dominated Kia. until after she became a greater Goddess. After her bid to create her own 'Demonweave' failed*, she instead went after ALL the other Dark Elven gods, even her own children (if she caught on to what Shar was attempting, she may have even done this to prevent someone 'back-dooring' her, eliminating all her own 'connections'). She never bothered to absorb Kia - she just made people forget about her. She wanted no part of that 'mini-me' Shar.


Also, is Kiaransalee back? If she is, that complicates matters even further...



Idk if you're trying to reconcile this with canon lore (it seems that you are), but if so, there are some inconsistencies with the timeline. Lolth had nothing to do with the High Magic spell that erased Kiaransalee's name (that spell didn't even actually work, since her name wasn't fully erased), and she never absorbed Eilistraee or Vhaeraun (in fact, Vhaeraun wasn't even touched by her, and Ed said that both Eilistraee and Vhaeraun survived with the help of Mystra). Honestly, she didn't actively go after them. In the story it was more like everyone went after Eilistraee, and she tried to free the drow from Lolth. Her attempt at creating the Demonweave also came much after those events, and basically at the same time as the drow pantheon fully re-emerged.

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Edited by - Irennan on 21 Aug 2017 03:55:13
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Markustay
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Posted - 21 Aug 2017 :  05:32:28  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Well, that's because I never read Lady Penitent - I was just going off memory form other discussions here. I thought it all had to do with a Savra game?

And how does a dead Mystra help anyone do anything?
Or did that story take place pre-Spellplague?

I am starting to recall why I avoided 4e like the plague.

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone

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Zeromaru X
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Posted - 21 Aug 2017 :  06:06:12  Show Profile Send Zeromaru X a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Because Mystra wasn't killed. She allowed Cyric and Shar to kill her, while they believed all was under their control. So, is more like suicide than murdering.

Mystra knew the Spellplague was going to happen, regardless of if she was dead or alive, because the Weave was just... how to say it; lets say, overheated. The Weave was overheated by so many years of RSEs. There were malfunctions in the Weave and it was going to meltdown.

So, Mystra happen to learn Shar's plot and allowed them to do it without opposing it, because that will allow her to shut down the Weave and repair it (and perhaps, she also calculated this would allow her to recover the control of the Shadow Weave from Shar). She prepared herself for rebooting the Weave, as well (all the meta-text plot with Deneir was her backup plan, that's why Deneir "went missing" during the Spellplague and returned casually in the SS). Potentially, she helped Eilistraee and Vhaeraun around the time she was preparing stuff. Mystra miscalculated, though. She didn't take into account the possibility that they will use Azuth's Old Staff to kill her (that's why Midnight died, while the Mystra consciousness survived—and why the Spellplague was way catastrophic than Mystra believed it would be).

Mind, this is not what happened in 4e. This is a retcon Ed devised to fix the 4e mess. Most of it is revealed in Elminster's Enraged, Erin's novels, and a post about Eilistraee and Vhaeraun Ed wrote in this forum (in his topic in the Chamber).

Long ago, in the distant past, they fell into decay. The philosopher’s path... The river of glory... Even the saints resting in the darkness rise up without response and block the way...

Edited by - Zeromaru X on 21 Aug 2017 06:12:30
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Irennan
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Italy
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Posted - 21 Aug 2017 :  11:03:16  Show Profile Send Irennan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

Well, that's because I never read Lady Penitent - I was just going off memory form other discussions here. I thought it all had to do with a Savra game?

And how does a dead Mystra help anyone do anything?
Or did that story take place pre-Spellplague?

I am starting to recall why I avoided 4e like the plague.



ZeromaruX already gave most of the sources, but Mystra's tie with Eilistraee (Mystra's sharing the Weave with the Dark Maiden) was also mentioned in Spellstorm (post-Sundering novel). In fact, Ed's first responses about Eilistraee and Vhaeraun sprung from questions about that book.

As for the rest of the drow gods, their return is confirmed through the SCAG (and other Ed's posts as well). In novels, Vhaeraun gets a chosen in "The Adversary", and Eilistraee gets some spotlight, although not directly, in Death Masks (she's been quite active since her return, apparently).

Re: the game, even accounting for it, things still went how I explained. The game was a mere reflection of the mortals' actions. In fact, I'd go as far to say that it was a metaphor, because otherwise the novels would have been for nothing (even more that they already are), and because there are scenes in that game that are literally impossible or logical nonsense unless it was a metaphor.

To all Facebook-using FR fans, you might be interested in checking out this page: https://www.facebook.com/groups/450517575051806/
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Markustay
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Posted - 27 Aug 2017 :  16:47:51  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Every time I try to look back on the 4e lore - even with the 'fixes' (and most of those are looking pretty shark-jumpy to me) writers are doing post-mortem - I just... I don't know. Want to tear my hair out? Scream? Grow a 3rd eye in my forehead and start speaking in some primordial dark tongue? (Now, THERE is an idea!) I know the rants are supposed to be over with now, but I feel like they just 'covered up the garbage' with slightly less-smelly garbage. I think I would have actually preferred a 'Dallas' moment - Elminster wakes up in a cold sweat, looks around, and says. "Thank goodness... it was all just a bad dream".

ANYHOW... Mystra. And Shar. What are they? Who were/are they? What is/was their purpose? What is their true connection to Selûne? What really happened between the three of them? And here's a new one - how is Lurue involved? Because now I am pretty sure she was. And what, exactly, does Selûne's symbol represent? Why always the number 'Seven'?

After recently realizing The Unicorn Run is actually an ancient gouge (now just a 'dell'), and certain aspects of her name (she is also called 'Silverymoon' - I got that from Ed's Dragon article on The Gods), I think Lurue was once a MUCH 'bigger player' in the cosmic scheme of things than she is now. And if anyone wonders why I lean heavily on Michael Moorcock's work when thinking in terms of D&D/FR's cosmology (and how 'The Gods' work in a multispheric environment), you need look no further than that article. Its pretty damn clear how influential his works were on Ed. Those books, and Zelazny's Chronicles of Amber (I picture the Imaskari being 'Amberish').

Anyhow, I went to confirm the fact of that odd name for Lurure (Silverymoon - its more of her 'beast cult' aspect) in that article. Aside from the implications that Lurue is directly connected to the Moon (Selûne), I also noted Ed had Selûne as a 'lesser deity' in that article. Yet, Shar - supposedly her 'twin', is a greater Goddess. What the hell?

Obviously, while Selûne became 'lessened' in the distant past, Shar either retained her power, or has managed to get most of it back (or has grown in power over Selûne, but given what we DO know about these two, I don't feel thats the case - they started-out as Uber-Powers). Now I go back to Lurue, or 'Silverymoon' (and in that same magazine article, it says Selûne is know as Our Lady in Silver... and she's the Moon goddess).

So now I think that there was one very PRIMAL being representing (Raw?) Magic itself - Lurue. Something happens and Lurue splits (has 'daughters', or just has multiple-personality diorder... once again, at these levels of power, we are really just splitting hairs here). Thus, Magic itself splits into a 'Light' & 'Dark' side. All very traditional (or 'tropey') in fantasy. Then the two halves war with each other, and somehow the original - 'The Lurue' - gets thrown down to earth (Toril). I am not sure what happened there, but the original, primal persona lost power and was destroyed (mostly - there are always 'vestiges' left in these scuffles). And here we have - at the same time - Selûne suddenly being 'depowered' (it even says as much - the myths says she "tore the power from her body and used it as a weapon"). Hmmmmmm... and then hurled that 'weapon' at her 'sister'.

What if... Lurue actually represents THAT power - the primal power Selûne held within herself? And if she threw THAT at Shar... The Unicorn's Run.

HOLY CRAP! I've been looking for a long, lost 'dark moon' everywhere, and we've been standing on it the whole time!!!

Ao didn't just 'separate the worlds', he separated the sisters, and guess which one Toril is? THAT is why Selûne barely has any power on Toril anymore! I think Sleyvas (or is it Dazzler?) may have the right of it about the Moon - that 'thing' isn't a moon at all. Thats just an illusion created by Leira. It may even be a piece leftover from Selûne that Leira just casts her illusion over.

And this also all means that the proto-world (The First/True World) was 'the Lurue' - a world of pure magic. That's gone now - only a vestige of that remains (and this may even tie-into Chauntea. One of the anthologies had an interesting short story about how the 'Earthmother' called her children forth... which includes a unicorn). That world had to be split apart into the two warring personalities it became - The Light, and the Dark. Abeir was never The Forgotten Realms, Toril was. Toril is the world "lost in the mists (shadows?) of time". Abeir is a mystery, one we've only become privy to in 4e.

Ed has maintained that the 4e Spellpague was based upon a built-in 'kill switch' he had worked into the deep lore of the Realms. That means Ed may not have named Abeir, but he had some inkling that something like that was 'out there' the whole time. I could even take this a step further into allegory: Magic exists in the shadows - its supposed to remain a relative 'unknown'. But Logic (a world based on science, rather than magic) would be a world of Light. There would be no room for this silly 'magic' stuff. it would be cold and hard... like steel.

Even 4e's 'Points of Light' makes better sense now. Civilization (humanity) creates these PoL's, but in the process of 'pushing back the darkness', they lose a little of the magic along the way.

And MAN does this pertain to Ed's... other pursuits.

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 27 Aug 2017 16:53:23
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Wooly Rupert
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Posted - 27 Aug 2017 :  18:26:42  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Lurue was originally the goddess of magic:

quote:
Well met again, all. Your Lady Hooded One returns (thank you for that naming, Wooly Rupert!), with Ed’s latest:


Hi, Wooly Rupert. Well, now: Nobanion and Lurue are, of course, the Lion and the Unicorn of British nursery rhyme fame (with all the meanings that go with that, too; they are among other things the supporters of the royal coat of arms for that country, and in many other coats of arms associated with England).
Yet they’re also MUCH more than that. For me, I have to be able to imagine a deity with some awe, and I often do it by attaching to them emotions evoked by other fiction. So, the Lion is also Aslan the Lion in The Chronicles of Narnia by C.S. Lewis (Christian allegorical fantasy classics soon to appear in a Disney movie that * might * turn out to be okay, and already on film in any number of BBC adaptations down the years, some of them superb). The Narnia books are hated by some, loved by others, but chock-full of little heart-wrenching scenes regardless, and are among the top-selling English-language fiction books of all time.
I didn’t mean my lion-god to BE Aslan, of course; as you saw in that DRAGON article, a lot of names were placeholders at the time, waiting for Mr. Gygax to round out the “official” (Greyhawk) pantheon. Aslan has that name because he has evoke that “awe” for me. The name “Aslan” is Indian in origin (India, not native North American), and the lion is of course a Christian symbol for ‘the King’ from way back, hence its lavish use in royal heraldry.
So “Aslan” went away the moment TSR decided to publish the Realms (mustn’t lift central characters from other authors, even in homage, though I did unwittingly [i.e. I’d forgotten] sneak one direct homage into the Realms [Aglarond, for Tolkien], and beat another well-known fantasy author to a name by coincidence, coining the name “Ashaba” for the river that runs through Shadowdale years before David Eddings used it in his Malloreon books).
Lurue is my own invented name, but it started almost as the deity’s ‘private’ name, with “Silverymoon” being her popular one (and, yes, the city of the same name was originally envisaged as the root and center of her faith). Not only is Lurue the Unicorn of “the Lion and the Unicorn,” she’s also the mysterious, eponymous unicorn from the children’s book THE LITTLE WHITE HORSE by Elizabeth Goudge, AND she’s also meant to evoke the Unicorn of Amber, in Roger Zelazny’s classic Amber books (where the Unicorn inspires awe even among the jaded royal family who use her as their badge). She was always meant to be mysterious, and there’s very little about her that didn’t go into POWERS & PANTHEONS that doesn’t now contradict the published Realms.
Originally, Lurue WAS magic—before Julia Martin added the name “Weave” to my GenCon explanations of ‘the great web of magic that’s everywhere in Toril, binds Toril together, and IS Toril,’ Lurue was the embodiment of the Weave. As such, she could teleport without error or limit, through all barriers and spells, was immune to all known magical [and psionic] effects, could raise dead, heal, regenerate and restore with the touch of her horn—and also spew silver fire from it—and so on. Her very proximity dispels illusions and curses, purifies and neutralizes poisons and taints, and purges diseases. And on and on. [To the usual chorus of “Look, yet another all-powerful Greenwood munchkin!” I reply: Yes. Of course. This is THE all-powerful goddess, and she’s also whimsical. We can’t understand why she does what she does, so she can’t be controlled, or act like any sort of tyrannical munchkin, any more than a mountain range or an ocean can be.] She tended to be as curious as a newborn babe, utterly fearless, and kind to injured creatures. And yes, I tucked in the “patron of virgins, but can also make barren wombs bear” folklore, too. Only virgins could ride her, and those who did got that silver hair the Chosen who are Mystra’s daughters all share, and ‘wild talent’ innate magical abilities, and were marked for special tasks and achievements all their lives.
The TSR designers quite rightly (given the humanocentric core of that version of AD&D, with its level and power limits on non-humans) wanted human gods to be front and center and of the greatest power and importance, so Mystra (most important to intelligent creatures trying to USE magic) became also the Guardian or Mother of the Weave, and Lurue sort of . . . danced sideways. To become the awe-inspiring mystery she is now.
Now, as for the Knights of the Unicorn, I do have more, but dare not pass it on right now for fear of trampling on something another creative person is already working on, in the Realms. That’s one rule I’m going to be very careful not to break, no matter how much we all want to delve into lore and secrets of the Realms. So: sorry, and I hope you’ll understand.


So saith Ed. Thy Hooded One can add this much: we Knights met Lurue once, in the High Forest, on the banks of the Unicorn Run. She was dancing on her hind legs on empty air, about forty feet off the ground, in full silvery moonlight -- and we all grovelled. She LOOKED into our eyes, each of us -- and Ed had written out long, detailed notes for each of us for the dream-visions we received then. When we awakened, we were all reinvigorated, healed of all hurts, had maximum charges in all of our magic items, and so on. The one virgin among us (no, I’m not going to name her, but it wasn’t my character, all you guessers) had been touched by Lurue’s horn, and her eyes were two flames of silver fire. Also, her hair had gone silver and moved constantly by itself, as if waves of wind were passing through it. She gained feather fall and water walk innate abilities on the spot, and ironguard as long as the silver fire was in her. It remained with her as we travelled, until we had to fight a certain archdevil in Myth Drannor.
In that encounter, we were overwhelmed by devils and were going down, just being buried in numbers. The archdevil saw the silver fire and went straight for the particular Knight, and after they’d started to fight and the character was being badly mauled, the player (thank whatever gods there be) REMEMBERED Ed’s notes of her dream-vision, and what she had to do. She fled onto the altar beside the devil (that was also a gate into the Nine Hells), and when the archdevil attacked her there, she embraced it and let it slay her.
And her silver fire went BLAM and took out altar, gate, archdevil, and all the other devils within a MILE, leaving all of us Knights lying dazed, unscathed, and alive . . . except she who’d sacrificed herself. She was gone forever.
And at that moment, far away in Shadowdale, Storm Silverhand was helping a farm wife give birth to her first child, a girl—and it came out stillborn. Storm raised the tiny body to make absolutely sure before she wrapped it and turned to comfort the mother . . . and its eyes opened, and they were silver and knowing, and the mind of our lost Knight was in the now-living child and wondering how by Lurue to tell Storm who she was.
Hmm. I’m crying again, just remembering it.
Another of Ed’s beautiful little moments, that will make me treasure our Realmsplay forever.

Ladies and gentlesirs, I give you: the Realms!
The Hooded One


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