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Zeromaru X
Great Reader
Colombia
2442 Posts |
 Posted - 03 Jul 2017 : 21:46:19
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| "Core" would imply they are releasing materials for other settings, xD |
Instead of seeking change, you prefer a void, merciless abyss of a world... |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 03 Jul 2017 : 22:03:12
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Maybe that was 'original Shevarash'... since there have obviously been (at least) two of them.
One is mentioned in a story that took place during the age of the Dragon Empires, and yet, its canon that Shevarash was only added to the pantheon recently. That would imply 'The Hunter' is an archtype: a 'mantle' others can pick up if for some reason the title has been in disuse.
I could theorize the first(?) Shevarash - perhaps only being a demi-power at that point - got 'picked up' during one of those cataclysms when geography gets swapped between worlds. In fact, he may have even been pre-Sundering, or the High Magic Ritual the elves cast to create Evermeet - which "reached backwards and forwards in time" (so that Evermeet would be created during the original Sundering, thus altering the Sundering itself) - somehow caused the paradox (because the timeline was changed, it may have caused a second incarnation of Shevarash to appear at a later date, so he was accidentally duplicated from different timelines).
Maybe these 'timeline changes' are why Overpowers need that 'sideboard' (storage-worlds, like Abeir) - so that they don't loose all the stuff that becomes 'displaced' by the changes to time. 
EDIT:
I just got this weird picture in my head of Overgods playing a CCG - the world would be the cards they have in play, and their deck would be stuff they have in their side-worlds (so Ao's deck would be Abeir, Io's deck would be Nerath, etc). And when they're not 'battling' (playing), they can trade cards; "I already have a Shevarash, what will you give me for it? How about an Acerarak? I don't really need it, but I don't have one yet..." 
"Wait a minute... is that a Holographic BANE?!"  |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 03 Jul 2017 22:09:38 |
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader
USA
2708 Posts |
Posted - 03 Jul 2017 : 22:53:14
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| I wasn't aware there were two Shevarashs lol. The Dark Court Slaughter happens in -4400 DR. This is the event that spurs Shevarash, at the time a mortal elf, to ceaselessly hunt the drow. He dies in -4070, and undergoes apotheosis, becoming a demigod. |
Sweet water and light laughter |
Edited by - CorellonsDevout on 03 Jul 2017 22:53:34 |
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Zeromaru X
Great Reader
Colombia
2442 Posts |
Posted - 04 Jul 2017 : 00:01:23
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Now is the time for the stoopid question:
I presume, the "First Work" is the Nerath world, right? So, why is your theory based in the destruction of the "First Work"?
Is there something out there to support this theory? Because, if we go by the Abyssal Plague novel event (that spawned many worlds, including Forgotten Realms), the Nerath world is alive and well by 1479 DR. |
Instead of seeking change, you prefer a void, merciless abyss of a world... |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11690 Posts |
Posted - 04 Jul 2017 : 00:07:21
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quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X
Now is the time for the stoopid question:
I presume, the "First Work" is the Nerath world, right? So, why is your theory based in the destruction of the "First Work"?
Is there something out there to support this theory? Because, if we go by the Abyssal Plague novel event (that spawned many worlds, including Forgotten Realms), the Nerath world is alive and well by 1479 DR.
Since you mention it... what exactly was that Abyssal Plague event about? In perspective of the realms is what I'm mainly interested in. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader
USA
2708 Posts |
Posted - 04 Jul 2017 : 00:17:26
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| The Abyssal Plague concerned Voldharrow, an entity from a dead universe that is unleashed across multiple worlds. It concerns the Chained God Tharizdun, as well. The two books that take place in the Realms are by Bruce R. Cordell. They are the "Sword of the Gods" books, following a deva named Damascus. It's been awhile since I read the novels. I remember most of them being just "D&D", and the main character being a rather clumsy eladrin lol. The Voldharrow infects everything it touches with the "Abyssal Plague". |
Sweet water and light laughter |
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KanzenAU
Senior Scribe
Australia
763 Posts |
Posted - 04 Jul 2017 : 00:39:08
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quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X
Now is the time for the stoopid question:
I presume, the "First Work" is the Nerath world, right? So, why is your theory based in the destruction of the "First Work"?
Is there something out there to support this theory? Because, if we go by the Abyssal Plague novel event (that spawned many worlds, including Forgotten Realms), the Nerath world is alive and well by 1479 DR.
I blew up the First Work/Nerath world (the name comes from the 4e DMG) because I wanted an excuse for all those peoples (dwarves, elves, orcs, etc) to spread throughout the universe, and I figured the doom of their planet might do it.
That said, I failed to take those novels into account, so now I gotta rethink it! (grumble grumble) I forgot about that connection, that complicates things.
Edit: I believe the "current year" on the First Work is less than 10,000 years from the end of the Dawn War, whereas on Abeir-Toril it's about 36,500 years ago. So either the Dawn War continued after it left the battleground of Abeir-Toril, or the different worlds exist in different time streams (time flows differently on the First Work). More thought required. |
Regional maps for Waterdeep, Triboar, Ardeep Forest, and Cormyr on DM's Guild, plus a campaign sized map for the North |
Edited by - KanzenAU on 04 Jul 2017 00:50:57 |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11690 Posts |
Posted - 04 Jul 2017 : 01:41:48
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quote:
Originally posted by CorellonsDevout
The Abyssal Plague concerned Voldharrow, an entity from a dead universe that is unleashed across multiple worlds. It concerns the Chained God Tharizdun, as well. The two books that take place in the Realms are by Bruce R. Cordell. They are the "Sword of the Gods" books, following a deva named Damascus. It's been awhile since I read the novels. I remember most of them being just "D&D", and the main character being a rather clumsy eladrin lol. The Voldharrow infects everything it touches with the "Abyssal Plague".
So, from what I read, the "Voidharrow" is some kind of "crystalline disease" being. It apparently was imprisoned where Tharizdun was imprisoned. So, SOMEONE started a ritual meant to free Tharizdun (a being meant to destroy all of creation).... right around the same time as Malark Springhill was doing his ritual meant to destroy the world.... man its odd how many of these things were happening around the same time. Wonder if Malark's ritual is what allowed the Voidharrow out... and if all of this ties into Pandorym / Entropy.
From Dungeon #192
Deep in the bowels of the Abyss lies the prison of the evil god Tharizdun. Also called the Chained God and the Elder Elemental Eye, Tharizdun created the Abyss by piercing the deepest layers of the Elemental Chaos with a crystal of pure evil, the Heart of the Abyss. For eons Tharizdun has been imprisoned by the other gods, and he has waited and watched for opportunities to spread his malevolence throughout the multiverse.
That time has now come.
A cult loyal to Tharizdun performed a dark ritual to penetrate his prison, and though the Chained God could not escape, the essence of his will did, in the form of a sentient red liquid laced with silver
and flecked with gold, known as the Voidharrow. This essence infects all creatures it touches, filling them with great strength and Tharizdun’s desire to destroy all of creation. The opening into Tharizdun’s prison tore through the fabric of space and time, allowing the Voidharrow to seep into many worlds simultaneously. Athas, Faerûn, Eberron, and the world of the Nentir Vale are not safe from its evil touch.
The Voidharrow
The relationship between the Voidharrow and Tharizdun is more complicated than mortals can understand. Though the two conscious entities had been entombed together since creation, their minds were not fully entwined. While Tharizdun commanded his cultists to set him free, it was the Voidharrow that escaped. Tharizdun still seeks freedom, but the Voidharrow’s primary goal now is to spread its disease as far as possible. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 04 Jul 2017 : 06:30:54
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*Hmph* - it would be REAL EASY to connect all of this to my theories about Entropy, the Blackballs, Corruption, The Far Realms, and Elder Evils. 
'Voidharrow' would be a name for the 'corruption' itself. Everything else fits PERFECTLY (maybe I should read the Abyssal Plague books after all). |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 04 Jul 2017 06:32:33 |
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Zeromaru X
Great Reader
Colombia
2442 Posts |
Posted - 04 Jul 2017 : 07:45:00
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quote:
Originally posted by KanzenAU
quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X
Now is the time for the stoopid question:
I presume, the "First Work" is the Nerath world, right? So, why is your theory based in the destruction of the "First Work"?
Is there something out there to support this theory? Because, if we go by the Abyssal Plague novel event (that spawned many worlds, including Forgotten Realms), the Nerath world is alive and well by 1479 DR.
I blew up the First Work/Nerath world (the name comes from the 4e DMG) because I wanted an excuse for all those peoples (dwarves, elves, orcs, etc) to spread throughout the universe, and I figured the doom of their planet might do it.
That said, I failed to take those novels into account, so now I gotta rethink it! (grumble grumble) I forgot about that connection, that complicates things.
Edit: I believe the "current year" on the First Work is less than 10,000 years from the end of the Dawn War, whereas on Abeir-Toril it's about 36,500 years ago. So either the Dawn War continued after it left the battleground of Abeir-Toril, or the different worlds exist in different time streams (time flows differently on the First Work). More thought required.
The less than 10000 years comes from...?
Because, is you read stuff from sourcebooks, there is no way to know when the Dawn War happened. I guess I'm gonna to re-read my 4e books, lol.
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
quote:
Originally posted by CorellonsDevout
The Abyssal Plague concerned Voldharrow, an entity from a dead universe that is unleashed across multiple worlds. It concerns the Chained God Tharizdun, as well. The two books that take place in the Realms are by Bruce R. Cordell. They are the "Sword of the Gods" books, following a deva named Damascus. It's been awhile since I read the novels. I remember most of them being just "D&D", and the main character being a rather clumsy eladrin lol. The Voldharrow infects everything it touches with the "Abyssal Plague".
So, from what I read, the "Voidharrow" is some kind of "crystalline disease" being. It apparently was imprisoned where Tharizdun was imprisoned. So, SOMEONE started a ritual meant to free Tharizdun (a being meant to destroy all of creation).... right around the same time as Malark Springhill was doing his ritual meant to destroy the world.... man its odd how many of these things were happening around the same time. Wonder if Malark's ritual is what allowed the Voidharrow out... and if all of this ties into Pandorym / Entropy.
From Dungeon #192
Deep in the bowels of the Abyss lies the prison of the evil god Tharizdun. Also called the Chained God and the Elder Elemental Eye, Tharizdun created the Abyss by piercing the deepest layers of the Elemental Chaos with a crystal of pure evil, the Heart of the Abyss. For eons Tharizdun has been imprisoned by the other gods, and he has waited and watched for opportunities to spread his malevolence throughout the multiverse.
That time has now come.
A cult loyal to Tharizdun performed a dark ritual to penetrate his prison, and though the Chained God could not escape, the essence of his will did, in the form of a sentient red liquid laced with silver
and flecked with gold, known as the Voidharrow. This essence infects all creatures it touches, filling them with great strength and Tharizdun’s desire to destroy all of creation. The opening into Tharizdun’s prison tore through the fabric of space and time, allowing the Voidharrow to seep into many worlds simultaneously. Athas, Faerûn, Eberron, and the world of the Nentir Vale are not safe from its evil touch.
The Voidharrow
The relationship between the Voidharrow and Tharizdun is more complicated than mortals can understand. Though the two conscious entities had been entombed together since creation, their minds were not fully entwined. While Tharizdun commanded his cultists to set him free, it was the Voidharrow that escaped. Tharizdun still seeks freedom, but the Voidharrow’s primary goal now is to spread its disease as far as possible.
The Voidharrow origins are quite interesting and are related to the World of the Sharn (detailed in Dragon 373). There is more info about the Voidharrow in Dungeon 197.
To put it shortly, the Progenitor, the stuff that later became the Voidharrow, it was the sentient remains of a universe destroyed by an alternate version of Tharizdun (one who became something "beyond a god" and destroyed his universe). The Sharn also originated in that universe (the Juna, a race from Spelljammer, also were from that universe). After the Dawn War, the gods sealed our version of Tharizdun in the world of the Sharn, where his will fused with the Progenitor and became the Voidharrow.
If you want to know about the ritual, the novella that deals with this stuff (and also, with Demascus origins) is free to download from here. |
Instead of seeking change, you prefer a void, merciless abyss of a world... |
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KanzenAU
Senior Scribe
Australia
763 Posts |
Posted - 04 Jul 2017 : 08:00:54
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IF time passes the same on the First Work (Nerath World) and Toril, that means the Dawn War only ended less than 10,000 years ago, or sometime after -8,500 DR. This is around the time of the rise of Imaskar, and well after the Days of Thunder, Dawn Ages, First Flowering, and the Crown Wars. However, the god-primordial conflict on Toril occurred well over 37,000 years ago.
That seems to imply that the Dawn War took place over a very long time, and for the latter 27,000 years of it Abeir-Toril was simply left out of it. If we were to take the creation of the crystal sphere of Realmspace by Ao at 70,000 years ago (to suit the presumed geological age):
BEFORE THE DAWN WAR
13.8 billion years ago: Creation sparks the Big Bang, and the multiverse, the Overgods, and the primordials are created. The primordials go to work on shaping the expanding Prime Material Plane.
4.5 billion years ago: The primordials create Earth, and the Overgods are amazed at their creation. Seeing its potential for life, they begin to subtly guide the primordials to work elsewhere, so that life can flourish naturally on Earth.
100,000 years ago: The first crystal spheres are created, triggered by the Overgods' discovery of human life on Earth, realizing that the faith of these humans somehow empowers them. The Overgods create the first gods, and some of these gods transport humans from Earth to their own crystal spheres. The greatest of these other crystal spheres is that of the First Work (Nerath World), and a god of the First Work whose name is forgotten brings humans there.
The sky goddess couples with the primordial Annam, and the first titans are created. Other gods of the First Work such as Moradin and Corellon begin crafting other species such as dwarves and elves, modeled on the human template. Moradin gifts some dwarves to the primordials, who give them to the titans and giants who enslave them.
70,000 years ago: Ao creates the crystal sphere of Realmspace, the last Overgod to create a crystal sphere. Selune and Shar coalesce into the sphere and kick out the primordials. They soon begin warring against each other, birthing other gods in the War of Light and Darkness. The Blue Age of Toril begins.
DURING THE DAWN WAR
60,000 years ago: Tharizdun discovers the shard of evil pushed through from an alternate universe by the obyriths, and convinces the primordials to initiate the Dawn War against the gods. The Lattice of Heaven is broken, and gods become reliant on faith to survive (unless protected by their Overgod at cost to the Overgod). The Dawn War comes to Abeir-Toril.
50,000 years ago: The Night Serpent blocks out the sun, and the Shadow Epoch on Abeir-Toril begins. In other crystal spheres, the Dawn War is also going badly for the gods and mortals. Some gods begin to transport some of their peoples to other worlds. It is at this time that Corellon transports some elves to Faerie, world of the fey.
40,000 years ago: Ubtao the Deceiver betrays the primordials on Abeir-Toril, and the gods are able to cast them down or banish them from the crystal sphere. However, the Dawn War continues throughout other spheres of the multiverse. Clangeddin's revolt against giantkind draws Moradin's eye, who finally sees the suffering of the dwarves and moves to help them. However, many dwarves remain imprisoned.
36,500 years ago (-35,000 DR): End of Toril's ice age, and the beginning of the Days of Thunder.
35,000 years ago (-33,500 DR): Annam fathers the first Toril-born titans with an unknown goddess.
32,500 years ago (-31,000 DR): Their war with the titans going badly, the batrachi release some of the primordials imprisoned on Abeir-Toril, resparking the local god-primordial conflict and causing the Tearfall. Ao is forced to split Abeir-Toril into Abeir and Toril. The titans and batrachi are destroyed.
31,500 years ago (-30,000 DR): Annam starts again with Othea, fathering a new line of Toril-born titans and giants.
28,500 years ago (-27,000 DR): The first elves come from Faerie to Toril, worshiping the Faerie gods.
26,900 years ago (-25,400 DR): Tintageer on Faerie is destroyed, and more elves come to Toril.
17,500 years ago (-16,000 DR): The first dwarves arrive out of the Yehimal mountains, having escaped through portals Moradin had made for them in the hearts of many worlds to help them escape enslavement by the giants.
10,000 years ago (-8,500 DR): The Dawn War finally comes to a close throughout the rest of the multiverse, having raged for 50,000 years. Gods begin to work on restoring the Lattice of Heaven. The work in progress becomes known as the Great Wheel.
AFTER THE DAWN WAR
Current day (~1490 DR): The Dawn War has been over for almost 10,000 years, and has been gone from Toril for at least 37,000 years.
Edit for ZeromaruX:
quote:
The less than 10000 years comes from...?
Dungeon #173, which states that a titan agreed to serve Moradin for 10,000 years during the Dawn War, and is still serving him. |
Regional maps for Waterdeep, Triboar, Ardeep Forest, and Cormyr on DM's Guild, plus a campaign sized map for the North |
Edited by - KanzenAU on 04 Jul 2017 08:07:07 |
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Zeromaru X
Great Reader
Colombia
2442 Posts |
Posted - 04 Jul 2017 : 08:51:48
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quote:
Edit for ZeromaruX:
quote:
The less than 10000 years comes from...?
Dungeon #173, which states that a titan agreed to serve Moradin for 10,000 years during the Dawn War, and is still serving him.
I see. Ironic that I, a great fan of 4e, never played the final adventures of the Scales of War adventure path (we started to play it, but my players sidetracked it too much, that the campaign evolved into a totally different adventure, delving into the Far Realm and stuff...).
However, searching for references of the Dawn War, I found where I read that He Who Was was the creator of humans: Dragon 427 (in the article about Nerull). I have to thank you for that, I can update my archive of gods with that reference at last. |
Instead of seeking change, you prefer a void, merciless abyss of a world... |
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KanzenAU
Senior Scribe
Australia
763 Posts |
Posted - 04 Jul 2017 : 09:43:09
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quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X
However, searching for references of the Dawn War, I found where I read that He Who Was was the creator of humans: Dragon 427 (in the article about Nerull). I have to thank you for that, I can update my archive of gods with that reference at last.
Dang, that complicates things further!
p66 of The Plane Above - Secrets of the Astral Sea states that Asmodeus killed He Who Was during the Dawn war.
p288 of the Monster Vault states that Zehir killed humanity's creator after the Dawn War.
If He Who Was is the same as humanity's nameless creator, but they were killed separately... now that's hard to reconcile. They're even both presented as "fact" rather than myth.
Couple of ideas...
1. Humanity has had multiple "creator deities" on different worlds. They are worshiped as the creators of humanity, when in truth they just exported them from Earth.
2. A portion of He Who Was somehow survived Asmodeus's assassination, perhaps as a husk in the Astral Sea. Following the end of the Dawn War, Zehir discovered a way to kill dead gods, ending He Who Was permanently.
Edit: For my own cosmology, I'm inclined to combine the two. He Who Was is the god that exported humans to the First Work, and was worshiped as their creator deity. He's later killed by Asmodeus, becomes a husk on the Astral Sea, and later Zehir finds a way to totally destroy him from existence, perhaps using the Obelisk of Night (The Plane Above). |
Regional maps for Waterdeep, Triboar, Ardeep Forest, and Cormyr on DM's Guild, plus a campaign sized map for the North |
Edited by - KanzenAU on 04 Jul 2017 09:47:35 |
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Zeromaru X
Great Reader
Colombia
2442 Posts |
Posted - 04 Jul 2017 : 12:28:58
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Things get more complicated when the first 4e PHB (p.47) has this to add:
"Their myths name no god as the creator of the race. Some tales say the gods worked together to create them, infusing them with the best qualities of each race that had come before. Other tales say that humans were the creation of a god whose name is no longer known, a god killed in the war against the primordials or perhaps assassinated by another deity (Asmodeus and Zehir are often accused of the deed)."
I have homebrewed that both Asmodeus and Zehir took He Who Was together. Secrets of the Astral Sea says He Who Was was a "leader of the gods". This implies he was strong, so maybe both gods allied and killed him. Zehir only wanted humans, so he left Asmodeus claim He Who Was divine spark and realm.
This is in character with Zehir, who killed 4e Io in the same way: some stories suggest Io was killed because Zehir betrayed him, as Zehir wanted dragons for himself (Divine Power, p.40) |
Instead of seeking change, you prefer a void, merciless abyss of a world... |
Edited by - Zeromaru X on 04 Jul 2017 12:37:10 |
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KanzenAU
Senior Scribe
Australia
763 Posts |
Posted - 04 Jul 2017 : 13:03:03
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quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X
"Their myths name no god as the creator of the race. Some tales say the gods worked together to create them, infusing them with the best qualities of each race that had come before. Other tales say that humans were the creation of a god whose name is no longer known, a god killed in the war against the primordials or perhaps assassinated by another deity (Asmodeus and Zehir are often accused of the deed)."
I like this for my theory - there is no creator god of the humans, they arose on Earth, and then were imported to other spheres by He Who Was. He Who Was placed the humans under his divine protection, so that they could not be modified by other deities. Asmodeus then later killed He Who Was (aided by Pazuzu and possibly Zehir), who ends up as a husk on the Astral Plane. However, Zehir finds he still cannot alter the humans due to the protection of He Who Was, and so he takes it upon himself to totally erase He Who Was from the Astral Plane, freeing the humans up to become yuan-ti. |
Regional maps for Waterdeep, Triboar, Ardeep Forest, and Cormyr on DM's Guild, plus a campaign sized map for the North |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11690 Posts |
Posted - 04 Jul 2017 : 15:13:17
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quote:
Originally posted by KanzenAU
quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X
"Their myths name no god as the creator of the race. Some tales say the gods worked together to create them, infusing them with the best qualities of each race that had come before. Other tales say that humans were the creation of a god whose name is no longer known, a god killed in the war against the primordials or perhaps assassinated by another deity (Asmodeus and Zehir are often accused of the deed)."
I like this for my theory - there is no creator god of the humans, they arose on Earth, and then were imported to other spheres by He Who Was. He Who Was placed the humans under his divine protection, so that they could not be modified by other deities. Asmodeus then later killed He Who Was (aided by Pazuzu and possibly Zehir), who ends up as a husk on the Astral Plane. However, Zehir finds he still cannot alter the humans due to the protection of He Who Was, and so he takes it upon himself to totally erase He Who Was from the Astral Plane, freeing the humans up to become yuan-ti.
Or perhaps Asmodeus "killed" him during the dawn war, but his worshippers "resurrected" him, and then Zehir "killed" him again following the dawn war. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Misereor
Learned Scribe
164 Posts |
Posted - 05 Jul 2017 : 09:08:58
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quote:
Originally posted by KanzenAU
Edit: For my own cosmology, I'm inclined to combine the two. He Who Was is the god that exported humans to the First Work, and was worshiped as their creator deity. He's later killed by Asmodeus, becomes a husk on the Astral Sea, and later Zehir finds a way to totally destroy him from existence, perhaps using the Obelisk of Night (The Plane Above).
Speaking of our own cosmologies, in mine the big reveal I've never gotten to use with my players is that He Who Was' true name was "Deus". As in Asmodeus.
It is unclear when the corruption began, but it became irreversible once Pazuzu (who specializes in corrupting Lawful Good) gifted him a Ruby Rod that was actually a piece of the Obyrith Shard.
Eons of unrelenting war against a foe of ultimate evil made him unable to hold onto the good, righteousness, and forgiveness that were his portfolios. Evil, selfrighteousness, and revenge are now more accurate descriptions. The curse of a dying god of good that was said to transform Asmodeus into a Devil and Baathion into Baator was him bitterly cursing himself, and finally embracing his new nature.
The fallen Deus knew that it is in the nature of faith to transform. Even gods are not immune, so to maintain his new nature he had to avoid worship as a god of good. So he appeared to those of his mortal followers who had not already been corrupted, and terrorized and slew them, and inflicted great sufffering upon them whereever he found them. Thus ended the worship of Deus, and fear of Asmodeus began (almost as nourishing as regular worship, and guaranteed to maintain his new nature).
The only thing that could now threaten him was if new generations of mortals started venerating his old self again. And so to eliminate all threat of this he destroyed or altered every mention of his name he could find, and to this day mercilessly hunts down anyone who mentions his old name. Furthermore he pretended to be a servant who had murdered his master, that he might more convincingly claim that his old self was done and gone forever.
For the thing Asmodeus most fears is to revert to his old his old self and having to face the things he has done with an untainted heart. It is a terror he cannot face. Any atrocity is preferable, and the worse they are, the more secure are the locks on the prison he has made for his conscience.
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What is dead may never die, but rises again, harder, stronger, in a later edition. |
Edited by - Misereor on 05 Jul 2017 09:12:00 |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11690 Posts |
Posted - 05 Jul 2017 : 13:26:36
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quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X
quote:
Originally posted by KanzenAU
quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X
Now is the time for the stoopid question:
I presume, the "First Work" is the Nerath world, right? So, why is your theory based in the destruction of the "First Work"?
Is there something out there to support this theory? Because, if we go by the Abyssal Plague novel event (that spawned many worlds, including Forgotten Realms), the Nerath world is alive and well by 1479 DR.
I blew up the First Work/Nerath world (the name comes from the 4e DMG) because I wanted an excuse for all those peoples (dwarves, elves, orcs, etc) to spread throughout the universe, and I figured the doom of their planet might do it.
That said, I failed to take those novels into account, so now I gotta rethink it! (grumble grumble) I forgot about that connection, that complicates things.
Edit: I believe the "current year" on the First Work is less than 10,000 years from the end of the Dawn War, whereas on Abeir-Toril it's about 36,500 years ago. So either the Dawn War continued after it left the battleground of Abeir-Toril, or the different worlds exist in different time streams (time flows differently on the First Work). More thought required.
The less than 10000 years comes from...?
Because, is you read stuff from sourcebooks, there is no way to know when the Dawn War happened. I guess I'm gonna to re-read my 4e books, lol.
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
quote:
Originally posted by CorellonsDevout
The Abyssal Plague concerned Voldharrow, an entity from a dead universe that is unleashed across multiple worlds. It concerns the Chained God Tharizdun, as well. The two books that take place in the Realms are by Bruce R. Cordell. They are the "Sword of the Gods" books, following a deva named Damascus. It's been awhile since I read the novels. I remember most of them being just "D&D", and the main character being a rather clumsy eladrin lol. The Voldharrow infects everything it touches with the "Abyssal Plague".
So, from what I read, the "Voidharrow" is some kind of "crystalline disease" being. It apparently was imprisoned where Tharizdun was imprisoned. So, SOMEONE started a ritual meant to free Tharizdun (a being meant to destroy all of creation).... right around the same time as Malark Springhill was doing his ritual meant to destroy the world.... man its odd how many of these things were happening around the same time. Wonder if Malark's ritual is what allowed the Voidharrow out... and if all of this ties into Pandorym / Entropy.
From Dungeon #192
Deep in the bowels of the Abyss lies the prison of the evil god Tharizdun. Also called the Chained God and the Elder Elemental Eye, Tharizdun created the Abyss by piercing the deepest layers of the Elemental Chaos with a crystal of pure evil, the Heart of the Abyss. For eons Tharizdun has been imprisoned by the other gods, and he has waited and watched for opportunities to spread his malevolence throughout the multiverse.
That time has now come.
A cult loyal to Tharizdun performed a dark ritual to penetrate his prison, and though the Chained God could not escape, the essence of his will did, in the form of a sentient red liquid laced with silver
and flecked with gold, known as the Voidharrow. This essence infects all creatures it touches, filling them with great strength and Tharizdun’s desire to destroy all of creation. The opening into Tharizdun’s prison tore through the fabric of space and time, allowing the Voidharrow to seep into many worlds simultaneously. Athas, Faerûn, Eberron, and the world of the Nentir Vale are not safe from its evil touch.
The Voidharrow
The relationship between the Voidharrow and Tharizdun is more complicated than mortals can understand. Though the two conscious entities had been entombed together since creation, their minds were not fully entwined. While Tharizdun commanded his cultists to set him free, it was the Voidharrow that escaped. Tharizdun still seeks freedom, but the Voidharrow’s primary goal now is to spread its disease as far as possible.
The Voidharrow origins are quite interesting and are related to the World of the Sharn (detailed in Dragon 373). There is more info about the Voidharrow in Dungeon 197.
To put it shortly, the Progenitor, the stuff that later became the Voidharrow, it was the sentient remains of a universe destroyed by an alternate version of Tharizdun (one who became something "beyond a god" and destroyed his universe). The Sharn also originated in that universe (the Juna, a race from Spelljammer, also were from that universe). After the Dawn War, the gods sealed our version of Tharizdun in the world of the Sharn, where his will fused with the Progenitor and became the Voidharrow.
If you want to know about the ritual, the novella that deals with this stuff (and also, with Demascus origins) is free to download from here.
Hmmm, thanks. Didn't know there was an ecology of the sharn article in dragon 373. Pulling that up now.
And a very nice article it is... so the High Mages of miyeritar created a "tripartite being of immense power" using a ritual. So, possibly Angharradh is a creation of elven high magic?
With unbridled magic pounding against defensive wards, the mages joined mind and body to birth the first fhaorn’quessir—a giant-sized, tripartite being of immense power—to walk Toril in millennia. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
Edited by - sleyvas on 05 Jul 2017 13:52:04 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 05 Jul 2017 : 15:44:40
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quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
Hmmm, thanks. Didn't know there was an ecology of the sharn article in dragon 373. Pulling that up now.
And a very nice article it is... so the High Mages of miyeritar created a "tripartite being of immense power" using a ritual. So, possibly Angharradh is a creation of elven high magic?
With unbridled magic pounding against defensive wards, the mages joined mind and body to birth the first fhaorn’quessir—a giant-sized, tripartite being of immense power—to walk Toril in millennia.
As I recall, her creation was in the novel Evermeet, and it was purely a reaction on the part of the goddesses to something else - I think it was shenanigans on the part of Araushnee. |
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Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 05 Jul 2017 15:45:12 |
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader
USA
2708 Posts |
Posted - 05 Jul 2017 : 17:21:09
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| Yes, Angharradh was in response to the anti-Seldarine (led by Araunshnee). She was born from the essence of Aedrie, Hanali, and Sehanine. |
Sweet water and light laughter |
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Zeromaru X
Great Reader
Colombia
2442 Posts |
Posted - 05 Jul 2017 : 21:46:02
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I never understood Angharradh's purpose...
Why to have a goddess that can be easily replaced by Sehanine in every other setting? |
Instead of seeking change, you prefer a void, merciless abyss of a world... |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11690 Posts |
Posted - 06 Jul 2017 : 13:24:55
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
Hmmm, thanks. Didn't know there was an ecology of the sharn article in dragon 373. Pulling that up now.
And a very nice article it is... so the High Mages of miyeritar created a "tripartite being of immense power" using a ritual. So, possibly Angharradh is a creation of elven high magic?
With unbridled magic pounding against defensive wards, the mages joined mind and body to birth the first fhaorn’quessir—a giant-sized, tripartite being of immense power—to walk Toril in millennia.
As I recall, her creation was in the novel Evermeet, and it was purely a reaction on the part of the goddesses to something else - I think it was shenanigans on the part of Araushnee.
Ah, gotcha. Wonder if the "creation" by the spell was in fact some summoning of her avatar... or maybe even the formation of some new tripartite deity that we don't know about. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader
USA
2708 Posts |
Posted - 06 Jul 2017 : 16:31:58
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| Evermeet was a great read. I recommend it to anyone who hasn't read. |
Sweet water and light laughter |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 06 Jul 2017 : 20:45:21
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quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
Hmmm, thanks. Didn't know there was an ecology of the sharn article in dragon 373. Pulling that up now.
And a very nice article it is... so the High Mages of miyeritar created a "tripartite being of immense power" using a ritual. So, possibly Angharradh is a creation of elven high magic?
With unbridled magic pounding against defensive wards, the mages joined mind and body to birth the first fhaorn’quessir—a giant-sized, tripartite being of immense power—to walk Toril in millennia.
As I recall, her creation was in the novel Evermeet, and it was purely a reaction on the part of the goddesses to something else - I think it was shenanigans on the part of Araushnee.
Ah, gotcha. Wonder if the "creation" by the spell was in fact some summoning of her avatar... or maybe even the formation of some new tripartite deity that we don't know about.
I've never assumed that that sharn creation described was anything more than just creating a sharn. My spin on that description was that that first formerly mortal sharn had the arcane might of its original components, making for three wizards' worth of power in a being that had some serious power without that starting bonus from the original srouces. |
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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11690 Posts |
Posted - 07 Jul 2017 : 01:56:42
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
Hmmm, thanks. Didn't know there was an ecology of the sharn article in dragon 373. Pulling that up now.
And a very nice article it is... so the High Mages of miyeritar created a "tripartite being of immense power" using a ritual. So, possibly Angharradh is a creation of elven high magic?
With unbridled magic pounding against defensive wards, the mages joined mind and body to birth the first fhaorn’quessir—a giant-sized, tripartite being of immense power—to walk Toril in millennia.
As I recall, her creation was in the novel Evermeet, and it was purely a reaction on the part of the goddesses to something else - I think it was shenanigans on the part of Araushnee.
Ah, gotcha. Wonder if the "creation" by the spell was in fact some summoning of her avatar... or maybe even the formation of some new tripartite deity that we don't know about.
I've never assumed that that sharn creation described was anything more than just creating a sharn. My spin on that description was that that first formerly mortal sharn had the arcane might of its original components, making for three wizards' worth of power in a being that had some serious power without that starting bonus from the original srouces.
Well, I started to say "but Sharn are the same size roughly as us", but then I said "let me check the old monstrous manual" and sure enough they were size H (16' long). I bow to this interpretation, it makes much more sense. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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KanzenAU
Senior Scribe
Australia
763 Posts |
Posted - 14 Jul 2017 : 17:13:10
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Here comes my latest thoughts on cosmology, in the form of a 23 page essay outlining the story of the multiverse from before it came into existence to the end of the Second Sundering. This contains ideas on everything from what the conduits are, to the nature of Jergal, to how the Dawn War affected Abeir-Toril, to the different human pantheons, in the form of one long timeline. I hope some of you take an interest and enjoy the read.
Any thoughts are definitely welcome and encouraged, but I'm especially interested if anyone can find anything that directly contradicts canon. I'm sure there's stuff in there (a lot of it is homebrew), but I have tried my hardest to not directly contradict any source. In fact, I've put just about everything I know about the gods into this.
A warning that it is mostly focused on the gods of the humans, though some gods of other pantheons do get a mention. Eventually I would plan to add appendices with the non-human pantheons included (I have already completed the draconic pantheon, though it's not included in this work).
There is also definitely some ideas in here that I would never dare to take the credit for - I've notably taken a lot of Jergal's story from George Krashos's writings, and I use the Iyachtu Xvim = the current Bane theory too. I'm sure there's plenty more other stuff others deserve credit for, right down to the "Conjunction of the Spheres" idea I use coming from the writing of Andrzej Sapkowski of The Witcher fame.
The Story of the Multiverse
Unfortunately, I feel like this is simply too long to post here, so those interested will have to use the OneDrive link above. |
Regional maps for Waterdeep, Triboar, Ardeep Forest, and Cormyr on DM's Guild, plus a campaign sized map for the North |
Edited by - KanzenAU on 14 Jul 2017 17:14:00 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 14 Jul 2017 : 17:58:36
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I am always pleased to see when people like my Xvim is Bane theory.  |
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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 14 Jul 2017 17:58:52 |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11690 Posts |
Posted - 15 Jul 2017 : 00:21:27
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I am always pleased to see when people like my Xvim is Bane theory.
You know what Wooly... I've liked it as well, and I may take it a step further and say Xvim is Bane..... but Bane is playing as Gilgeam now and has been trapped for a century in Abeir... |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 15 Aug 2017 : 00:10:19
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So I presented a new theory about Shar and Selûne in another thread, and because of all the weirdness with the 4e/5e lore, I am starting to toy with the idea Mystryl/Mystra came FIRST. But my new thoery has to do with the nature of The Weave and its true purpose, and 'Raw' Magic. I'm starting to think thats just a Torillian term for 'negative Energy' (PURE negative energy, which 'disappeared' from the Planer tableau during 3e). It makes sense in terms of what it does, and hard it is to handle. And in my new theory, 'Shadow' Magic is just watered-down negative Energy.
My reasoning for going this new route is try to give Shar/Selûne a place and a purpose pre-Sundering (in the scheme of the Dawn War and the 'before time'). I even picture in my mind Mystryl (she may have been know as something else back then, which I'd prefer) growing a second 'face' on the back of her head (a'la Voldemort), when she started to became two separate personalities (and the two would argue, which would be very disconcerting to the other Gods). I know, its a weird idea, but I've only started ironing-out the wrinkles.
I also had a new idea about the Elves/Eladrin, and maybe the Fey, that I meant to post to this thread yesterday... and now I can't remember it. It was along the lines of, "What if the elves were really..." something like that. I'll keep trying to remember it - it was definitely controversial (probably tied into my never-ending quest to find out why the fey felt it necessary to send elves to counter dragons on Toril). Maybe... What if it wasn't two different stories about 'the blood of gods' creating races... what if its really the SAME story?
Its not ringing a bell, but that ones pretty spiffy too. And we do have several examples of Elves 'spontaneously' becoming dragons in canon. Then again, we have examples of elves 'spontaneously' becoming a LOT of things. Their forms seem mutable, under the right circumstances... like the Fey...
A lot of my thoughts lately keep going back to this 'lesser' and greater' version of everything (including the Creator Races - Elves are just 'downgraded' Fey). It seems something 'broke' during the Dawnwar, and ever since, things just can't be as 'shiny' as they once were. Everything is smaller, dimmer, less powerful. What if the Celestial Dragons were Shapechanged Fey, created by the primordials to be their assistants/servant/steeds (it probably slowly went from that first thing to finally being that last thing). These owuld have beent he majestic, beautiful, godlike variety of the Outer planes. And then after the Dawn War, when everything was 'lessened' (because the universe lay broken), Elves would become the first 'Dragons' - the primal, terrestrial kind.
So does that make Corellon Asgoroth?
Also, what have we got on Zotha? Wasn't some of that respun for 4e/5e? Was 'Zotha' cast down to Toril? is that what happened? If so, then I am pretty sure I know who/what Zotha was. I may even be able to piece-together the real story now.
Two sisters, one warm and light, the other dark, and cold...
I had it all wrong, it wasn't two 'suns'. And Selûne...
Selûne is a murderer.  |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 15 Aug 2017 00:23:28 |
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader
USA
2708 Posts |
Posted - 15 Aug 2017 : 01:11:24
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I've always considered elves a type of Fey (in faery lore, they are. Fey includes elves, faeries, sprites, pixies, etc). I know FR separates them, but I don't think they're all that separate, especially when you consider things like the Seelie Court, the fact that the elves came from Faerie, and so forth.
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Sweet water and light laughter |
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Cosmology Theories
