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sno4wy
Learned Scribe

USA
278 Posts

Posted - 25 Oct 2016 :  22:00:48  Show Profile Send sno4wy a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by CorellonsDevout
Going back to the characters' sexualities, maybe Jarlaxle and Zak had/will have a relationship ;) Actually, I would support that.



Given that the ending of the book has everyone coupling off and the last scene has Jarlaxle embracing Zaknafein with tears in his eyes, it did make me think a bit of the ending of Legend of Korra where Korra and Asami walk hand-in-hand into the spirit portal.

That being said, this is Bob, who's violently afraid of all things male-nonhet, so I don't think this was his intention. There's in fact this whole paragraph about how Afa's biggest failing is his love for a MAN (specified, not "person", but MAN) who shouldn't have had his love, how it was a huge distraction, a fatal failing, how it made him stray from the rightful and truthful path, which upon his return elevated him to new heights. As I've said before, while loving the wrong person can certainly be destructive, the way that Bob presented it is really problematic. It made it not so much about Afa having a sexuality at all, but rather that he was inclined towards ANOTHER MAN that stygmied his personal growth and progress.

I personally don't much care for the Zak/Jarlaxle pairing, as I've encountered some really gross people with highly problematic views (i.e. rape victim erasure, victim blaming, pro-bullying, ableism, refusal to acknowledge people on the gray/ace spectrum as anything other than "special snowflakes clamoring for attention and making shit up", etc) that are fanatic about this pairing, but I understand the lack of association between the two. Still, I'm colored negatively against it, even if it's not for a valid reason. :P

Edited by - sno4wy on 25 Oct 2016 22:03:04
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Shadolan
Seeker

29 Posts

Posted - 25 Oct 2016 :  22:06:41  Show Profile Send Shadolan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by CorellonsDevout


Going back to the characters' sexualities, maybe Jarlaxle and Zak had/will have a relationship ;) Actually, I would support that.



Meh, Drizzt and Arty had more chemistry than Drizzt and Catti anyway. Hmph...

Arty was just being "tsundere" all along lol.

Are you a yaoi fan btw? :P

But really, I wonder why Jarl cares for Zak THAT much.

Also...RAS has been promising that Jarl/Zak book for years now...

Edited by - Shadolan on 25 Oct 2016 22:11:28
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader

USA
2031 Posts

Posted - 25 Oct 2016 :  22:12:19  Show Profile  Send CorellonsDevout an AOL message Send CorellonsDevout a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I'm just an m/m fan lol, though I prefer canon pairings to shipping.

Sweet water and light laughter
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sno4wy
Learned Scribe

USA
278 Posts

Posted - 25 Oct 2016 :  22:13:47  Show Profile Send sno4wy a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Shadolan
Meh, Drizzt and Arty had more chemistry than Drizzt and Catti anyway.

Arty was just being "tsundere" all along lol.

Are you a yaoi fangirl? :P

But really, I wonder why Jarl cares for Zak THAT much.



Yuck, no. What you're mistaking for romantic chemistry is one-sided rivalry on the part of Artemis. Drizzt's very existence invalidated all of his struggles, as well as what he's put his entire being into achieving something that he isn't even aware of. To even think about getting cuddly with someone like that... it's nausea-inducing, honestly. It'd be totally in character for Artemis to shatter his soul with his own dagger than to allow his genitalia to get anywhere near Drizzt, past or present.

I realize you were kidding, but seriously, anyone who ships that have lived an extremely sheltered life and don't understand how abusive and horribly unfair that pairing is to Artemis. Drizzt has never given a shit about Artemis, not as the man truly is, anyway. Drizzt's perspective towards Artemis has always been like that of a narcissistic parent towards their child. They purport to want the best for that child, but never bothered to even find out what sort of personality that child has. Drizzt has never truly gave a damn about who Artemis was, who he could become, nor has he ever bothered to wonder what might be driving Artemis, other than to whine and moan and be emo about how it makes his own life soooo terrible. He couldn't give two shits about Artemis unless Artemis followed his own visions of what's true and good.

This is why I'm really uncomfortable with Artemis suddenly "falling in line" with it all along. It's contrived, forced, and fundamentally not at all realistic or believable, the stuff of bad fanfics written by egotistical fangirls that fancy themselves penning the next Lord of the Rings when in reality their work is subpar to even the Eye of Argus.

Edited by - sno4wy on 25 Oct 2016 22:16:15
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader

USA
2031 Posts

Posted - 25 Oct 2016 :  22:16:04  Show Profile  Send CorellonsDevout an AOL message Send CorellonsDevout a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Shadolan

quote:
Originally posted by CorellonsDevout


Going back to the characters' sexualities, maybe Jarlaxle and Zak had/will have a relationship ;) Actually, I would support that.



Meh, Drizzt and Arty had more chemistry than Drizzt and Catti anyway. Hmph...

Arty was just being "tsundere" all along lol.

Are you a yaoi fan btw? :P

But really, I wonder why Jarl cares for Zak THAT much.

Also...RAS has been promising that Jarl/Zak book for years now...



Sorry, missed part of your comment before. Yes, I AM a yaoi fangirl lol, though as I mentioned, I prefer canon pairings to shipping. That's why I read a lot of yaoi manga, but not many dojounshi (though I read one that was actually pretty good). That doesn't mean I won't ship if I see the potential lol, but I only do it in my head. I don't write fan fiction about it.

Sweet water and light laughter

Edited by - CorellonsDevout on 25 Oct 2016 22:25:57
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Shadolan
Seeker

29 Posts

Posted - 25 Oct 2016 :  22:25:14  Show Profile Send Shadolan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by sno4wy

quote:
Originally posted by Shadolan
Meh, Drizzt and Arty had more chemistry than Drizzt and Catti anyway.

Arty was just being "tsundere" all along lol.

Are you a yaoi fangirl? :P

But really, I wonder why Jarl cares for Zak THAT much.



Yuck, no. What you're mistaking for romantic chemistry is one-sided rivalry on the part of Artemis. Drizzt's very existence invalidated all of his struggles, as well as what he's put his entire being into achieving something that he isn't even aware of. To even think about getting cuddly with someone like that... it's nausea-inducing, honestly. It'd be totally in character for Artemis to shatter his soul with his own dagger than to allow his genitalia to get anywhere near Drizzt, past or present.

I realize you were kidding, but seriously, anyone who ships that have lived an extremely sheltered life and don't understand how abusive and horribly unfair that pairing is to Artemis. Drizzt has never given a shit about Artemis, not as the man truly is, anyway. Drizzt's perspective towards Artemis has always been like that of a narcissistic parent towards their child. They purport to want the best for that child, but never bothered to even find out what sort of personality that child has. This is why I'm really uncomfortable with Artemis suddenly "falling in line" with it all along. It's contrived, forced, and fundamentally not at all realistic or believable, the stuff of bad fanfics written by egotistical fangirls that fancy themselves penning the next Lord of the Rings when in reality their work is subpar to even the Eye of Argus.



Yup, I was just kidding. No worries^^

I agree that Drizzt was rather unfair to Arty as he never truly knew him nor understood him.

Dahlia at least had some soul bonding with Arty with both speaking about their respective burdens to each other. I don't think Arty told about his issues even to Calihye.

BTW does Entreri get ANY interaction with Wulfgar or Bruenor? Over 30 books and no interaction ever between Arty and those two. Its like as if RAS kept them away from each other for a reason.

Edited by - Shadolan on 25 Oct 2016 22:26:16
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sno4wy
Learned Scribe

USA
278 Posts

Posted - 25 Oct 2016 :  22:32:58  Show Profile Send sno4wy a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Shadolan
Yup, I was just kidding. No worries^^

I agree that Drizzt was rather unfair to Arty as he never truly knew him nor understood him.

Dahlia at least had some soul bonding with Arty with both speaking about their respective burdens to each other. I don't think Arty told about his issues even to Calihye.

BTW does Entreri get ANY interaction with Wulfgar or Bruenor? Over 30 books and no interaction ever between Arty and those two. Its like as if RAS kept them away from each other for a reason.



The thing with Dahlia and Artemis is better, but not by much. : I mean, the whole premise of their relationship was founded on intervention from an external (and powerful force): the aboleth exposing both of their minds for each other to see, without which it's likely that two individuals as guarded as they each are would've ever arrived there, especially with Dahlia involved with Drizzt at the time, even albeit in an unsatisfying way for either her or Drizzt.

At least with Calihye, Artemis was able to realize, on his own, some kind of common ground. It was facilitated by the magic of Idalia's Flute, but that magic was a lot more subtle and not quite as brute force as the aboleth's flaying their minds open.

But no, Artemis hadn't told anyone before Dahlia the details of his traumatic past. The only person who has ever shown interest, without some external nudging, was Jarlaxle. I mean, none of the characters in the books have been good for Artemis IMO, but Jarlaxle was the only person who actually looked into the matter of Artemis' individuality without some external dramatic circumstance shoving the matter into his face to look at.

Artemis doesn't really have any interaction with the CotH. The most substantial and meaningful, such as it is, is when he approaches Catti to ask if there was anything he could do to help and wishing her the best of luck with Drizzt.
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Shadolan
Seeker

29 Posts

Posted - 25 Oct 2016 :  22:45:19  Show Profile Send Shadolan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by sno4wy

[quote]

The thing with Dahlia and Artemis is better, but not by much. : I mean, the whole premise of their relationship was founded on intervention from an external (and powerful force): the aboleth exposing both of their minds for each other to see, without which it's likely that two individuals as guarded as they each are would've ever arrived there, especially with Dahlia involved with Drizzt at the time, even albeit in an unsatisfying way for either her or Drizzt.

At least with Calihye, Artemis was able to realize, on his own, some kind of common ground. It was facilitated by the magic of Idalia's Flute, but that magic was a lot more subtle and not quite as brute force as the aboleth's flaying their minds open.

But no, Artemis hadn't told anyone before Dahlia the details of his traumatic past. The only person who has ever shown interest, without some external nudging, was Jarlaxle. I mean, none of the characters in the books have been good for Artemis IMO, but Jarlaxle was the only person who actually looked into the matter of Artemis' individuality without some external dramatic circumstance shoving the matter into his face to look at.

Artemis doesn't really have any interaction with the CotH. The most substantial and meaningful, such as it is, is when he approaches Catti to ask if there was anything he could do to help and wishing her the best of luck with Drizzt.



I think Arty and Dahlia were already building up something in the book before the Aboleth messed with their minds with Drizzt being somewhat jealous by the time they defeated Sylora. Also I dunno if the Aboleth actually exposed their feelings to each other or rather tried to simply make them his pawns as that was never brought up again in their relationship.

Jarl truly had a soft spot for Arty though I'm not sure how much of it was genuine friendship and how much opportunism and plain curiosity. At least he will never stab Arty in a fit of jealousy lol.

A shame that Arty does not get any page time with the other CotH. There was a time Arty had some interaction with Regis but that was looong ago. Good that he speaks a line to Catti at least since he used to have a fair amount of interaction with her too in the early books. Arty truly became a character mostly Drizzt and Jarl focused so I liked that it expanded to Dahlia too. The enmity with Athro in the Sellswords trilogy does not count lol.

Edited by - Shadolan on 25 Oct 2016 22:45:46
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sno4wy
Learned Scribe

USA
278 Posts

Posted - 25 Oct 2016 :  23:01:30  Show Profile Send sno4wy a Private Message  Reply with Quote
It is my opinion, and I'm not asserting that this is fact, it is simply my opinion, that these recent books have done much to botch Jarlaxle and Artemis as characters. While neither of them dies, I feel that it would've been better that they did than be forcibly twisted into these incarnations of their old selves that share little consistency or likeness to who they were before. It isn't so much character development, and more akin to bad fanfics that might as well be using characters that are physically identical to these canonical characters, with the same names even, but aren't the same characters. However, because "Hero" and "Maestro" are canon, I'm sincerely not sure how to reconcile this mess in what I've always done to embrace canon, even when I didn't agree with it.
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mortsix
Acolyte

1 Posts

Posted - 26 Oct 2016 :  06:23:05  Show Profile Send mortsix a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Finished the book yesterday. Some enjoyable stuff in there; but I was surprised, I guess, by how incoherent it is. It shows how willing Salvatore is to cut corners to deliver emotional payoffs that aren't actually earned. Which matters less in a mid-trilogy book, but is fairly damaging if this is the last ever Drizzt novel, and those emotional payoffs have to stick.

I think there's two core problems with Hero: Drizzt, on the one hand; and Artemis, on the other. Drizzt has always been somewhat unstable: he was essentially raised as a child soldier, and the only person who cared for him was murdered on his account; he spends ten years in the Underdark alone, and develops some kind of dissociative alter-ego that enables him to kill ruthlessly and unfeelingly; he goes on a suicidal trip to Menzoberranzan to "save" his friends from the drow; when he believes his friends are dead during the Orc War he goes on a desperate and self-destructive killing spree; he becomes completely unhinged when his friends actually die--in Neverwinter he's essentially just chasing the next kill, while hoping someone will put him out of his misery, etc. So Drizzt unravelling psychologically isn't unprecedented; there's a number of dots Salvatore could have joined. Instead, he opts for the hand-waving "magical" variety of madness, which is so abstract that it's impossible to engage with. There's no learning there, there's no character development; there's no sense of risk or cost, because it's a plot contrivance. Drizzt is good and perfect -- then he's not -- then he's fine again. If Salvatore was going for something analogous to actual mental illness, he failed. (Even death is just a mild and temporary inconvenience; I can't even begin to engage with Zak being brought back to life.)

Similarly, Salvatore doesn't bother to put in the work to give Artemis organic character development. It's not as contrived as having a magical flute inducing Real Feelings; but Salvatore seems mostly uninterested in actually making his characters go through a process of growth and change. It doesn't help that very little of this trilogy has been told from Artemis's point-of-view: most of his actions seem rather forced. There's no clear through-line from the Artemis in the Neverwinter books to the reformed man who offers his life for Drizzt's and openly declares his love for Dahlia and readily forgives Jarlaxle for putting him through abject hell. The narrative just announces that Artemis has changed; fine, but maybe that should have been a difficult process of reflection, self-examination, coming to terms with horrific and damaging experiences, scrutiny of his own mistakes and limitations--rather than a few emphatic lines about Artemis's newfound capacity for love and friendship, The End.

It's strange: series usually accumulate narrative stakes and "risk" as they go along, as you come to know and love the characters; but I can't remember any Drizzt book where I felt so little was actually at stake.
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DandelionClock
Seeker

67 Posts

Posted - 26 Oct 2016 :  07:21:11  Show Profile Send DandelionClock a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Yeah! All that, true.
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Lilianviaten
Senior Scribe

487 Posts

Posted - 26 Oct 2016 :  13:07:51  Show Profile Send Lilianviaten a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by sno4wy

quote:
Originally posted by Lilianviaten

quote:
Originally posted by sno4wy

quote:
Originally posted by CorellonsDevout
Erm...in all honesty, that just made me SO happy. Omg! I am actually really excited now lol.



*shrug* I really liked Zaknafein at one point, but then over time I just realized that he never had much dimension to his character. I mean, what's there to his personality other than that he as the first representation in Bob's books of what most male drow in a Lolthite society felt like? Oh, and his love for his son, I suppose... but other than that, I felt he was quite bland. I could never understood why people were as into him as they were.

Bob's books have always been inconsistent, but those issues have gotten big and just world-breakingly glaring now. Bob explicitly said that Lolth didn't have Zak, which begged the question of, well, who did? Especially since Mielikki hadn't entered the picture yet and Bob refuses to acknowledge Eilistraee. But now, Lolth is the one to return Zak, so... in the end, she had him all along? Wut?


My head is one big spinning jumbled mess in regards to Bob's books. I'm really honestly glad that there will be no more Drizzt, hopefully not anyway, even if that doesn't bode well for the FR novel line.




That level of spite is absurd and completely illogical. You don't have to read any of Salvatore's books. If the novel line continues, you can read the authors you enjoy and not read Drizzt books. But you're so against the idea of that particular story, that you would rather not get to read any more books if the novel line ends than have Drizzt continue.

Thousands and thousands of people have expressed sadness that the Drizzt books are ending, and you're happy because they won't get to enjoy those novels anymore. That's insane. Doesn't it make more logical sense for you to be happy ignoring anything Salvatore writes and also being happy that those who do enjoy him get to read the books?

The same group of purists who whined endlessly about 4e are the ones who brought us 4e. WOTC got so tired of hearing them whine that they just (stupidly) destroyed everything that anyone complained about, all at once. But my goodness, I just don't understand it. Should we start a petition for WOTC to declare all Drizzt books non canon? Are the Cadderly books ok, or should those be non canon as well? At what point will you feel that Salvatore's influence has been sufficiently purged from Forgotten Realms?



You've apparently misunderstood my meaning. I'm hoping that's accidental instead of deliberate, but I'm honestly not sure given that you've made it about attacking me personally.

First, I don't know where you're getting the whole, "But you're so against the idea of that particular story, that you would rather not get to read any more books if the novel line ends than have Drizzt continue" idea from. The novel lines are ending. There is no doubt about that. My own preferences has no bearing or influence on the matter. None of ours do. I'm expressing how I feel in light of this, and especially about the context with regards to the Drizzt books.

"Thousands and thousands of people have expressed sadness that the Drizzt books are ending, and you're happy because they won't get to enjoy those novels anymore." Nope, this isn't my being happy that other people will be unhappy. Again, you're twisting my words so that you can personally attack me, and I have no idea why you're doing this. I'm happy the Drizzt books are ending. That doesn't equate into my being happy about other people being sad about it. Do you see the difference? As for, "Doesn't it make more logical sense for you to be happy ignoring anything Salvatore writes and also being happy that those who do enjoy him get to read the books?" yup, completely, and that's what I'd do, except the novel line is ending. Again, how I personally feel, or how anyone feels for that matter, won't change that. Don't attack me for stating the facts.

I'm not even going to bother addressing the rest of your response aimed at me, it's just too stupid to try to unravel. I've seen your posts Lilianviaten, and although I don't always agree with you, you're better than this. If you truly want to antagonize me over a bunch of misconstructions that exist solely in your head, that's your prerogative. However, I suggest that you get your emotions under control before blowing my post out of proportion.





I just finished the book earlier today. After rereading this whole thread, I'm really amazed that you think I so viciously attacked you. Nearly every post you've made on this particular thread has been filled with scorn, condescension, and bitterness. You came in here and spoiled the novel for people who hadn't read it, giving a very one sided account of all the events. Having actually read it, I can honestly say that you cast every bit of the story in the worst light possible.

I'm totally fine with somebody not liking RAS novels. I met the man once, and he was very nice, but it's not like you're attacking my best friend or anything. What I object to is you looking down your nose at these novels, all the while offering rather poorly thought out criticisms. For instance, you deliberately interpret Afafrenfere's line about "loving the wrong man" to twist it into him seeing his homosexuality as wrong. Parbid was an evil assassin who worked for a Netherese mercenary band. The problem was Afafrenfere being dedicated to a certain set of principles, but loving someone who stood in total opposition to those principles.

Another example is your comment about Drizzt making Lolth believe in compassion, or something to that effect. That never happens, just as Drizzt getting anything close to becoming a god doesn't happen. You're not even attempting any actual analysis of the events. You hate RAS so much (for ridiculous reasons like "he fetishizes lesbians") that you're attacking straw men. I have nothing against you, but I was very much looking forward to discussing this novel with others, and you've dominated the thread with your extreme negativity and distortions of what actually happened. You've spent 20 or 30 posts crying and throwing fits about sexism in fantasy novels (the great scourge of our time), and want to pretend there is something wrong with me for calling your tantrum what it is.
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader

USA
2031 Posts

Posted - 26 Oct 2016 :  15:13:28  Show Profile  Send CorellonsDevout an AOL message Send CorellonsDevout a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Am I the only one who is happy about Zak's return? Lol I finally go the book yesterday. Of course this is the week I work a lot, but I hope to finish it in the next few days. I kind of...peeked. I know I shouldn't have, but given that I knew some of the spoilers already, I didn't see the harm. I didn't read through the whole scene , because I didn't want to completely ruin it for myself, but I saw the scene where Lolth is taunting Drizzt saying "I can bring Zaknafein back". I bring this up because earlier we were having a discussion about Zak's soul, and I was puzzled because Zak's soul was in a "good place". Drizzt says something like "you don't have him". Lolth says "does it matter? I can bring him back". It notes that she doesn't deny what Drizzt says, which implies to me that she indeed did not have his soul. It makes me wonder how she did it, but at least he wasn't in the Abyss.

Again, I haven't finished the book, and so I haven't put all the puzzle pieces together. I was going to wait until I finished to mention it, but being this is a very active scroll, and I was thinking about this last night (I know, bad me for peeking), I wanted to mention it since it had been discussed earlier.

Considering we're 7 pages into this scroll, I am not going to bother hidin spoilers anymore.

Sweet water and light laughter
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sno4wy
Learned Scribe

USA
278 Posts

Posted - 26 Oct 2016 :  15:20:30  Show Profile Send sno4wy a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by mortsix

Finished the book yesterday. Some enjoyable stuff in there; but I was surprised, I guess, by how incoherent it is. It shows how willing Salvatore is to cut corners to deliver emotional payoffs that aren't actually earned. Which matters less in a mid-trilogy book, but is fairly damaging if this is the last ever Drizzt novel, and those emotional payoffs have to stick.



I feel that this opening paragraph, and your subsequent post of course, sums it up perfectly. Hits the nail squarely on the head. However, it is this paragraph that resonates very well with me, in explaining how I don't understand how self-purported diehard fans of Drizzt are so satisfied with such an empty, forced and contrived ending.

But then again, perhaps I've answered my own lack of understanding with the word, "diehard".

It's a shame, truly.
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sno4wy
Learned Scribe

USA
278 Posts

Posted - 26 Oct 2016 :  15:37:47  Show Profile Send sno4wy a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Lilianviaten
I just finished the book earlier today. After rereading this whole thread, I'm really amazed that you think I so viciously attacked you. Nearly every post you've made on this particular thread has been filled with scorn, condescension, and bitterness. You came in here and spoiled the novel for people who hadn't read it, giving a very one sided account of all the events. Having actually read it, I can honestly say that you cast every bit of the story in the worst light possible.

I'm totally fine with somebody not liking RAS novels. I met the man once, and he was very nice, but it's not like you're attacking my best friend or anything. What I object to is you looking down your nose at these novels, all the while offering rather poorly thought out criticisms. For instance, you deliberately interpret Afafrenfere's line about "loving the wrong man" to twist it into him seeing his homosexuality as wrong. Parbid was an evil assassin who worked for a Netherese mercenary band. The problem was Afafrenfere being dedicated to a certain set of principles, but loving someone who stood in total opposition to those principles.

Another example is your comment about Drizzt making Lolth believe in compassion, or something to that effect. That never happens, just as Drizzt getting anything close to becoming a god doesn't happen. You're not even attempting any actual analysis of the events. You hate RAS so much (for ridiculous reasons like "he fetishizes lesbians") that you're attacking straw men. I have nothing against you, but I was very much looking forward to discussing this novel with others, and you've dominated the thread with your extreme negativity and distortions of what actually happened. You've spent 20 or 30 posts crying and throwing fits about sexism in fantasy novels (the great scourge of our time), and want to pretend there is something wrong with me for calling your tantrum what it is.



It's quite ironic, actually, that you're lecturing me while every point in your post, yet again, are personal attacks against me.

First, not counting how you immediately lept onto your high horse, yet *again*, to point down at me and declare how I'm completely in the wrong for taking an amount of offense that you dictate that I must've taken (versus the real amount that I've taken), you feel justified in quantifying the characteristics with which I made my posts. Putting aside that the tone of how I write my posts hardly matters, and shouldn't matter to *anyone*, you're the one choosing to take offense at it.

Second, this is the SPOILERS thread. Why are you in this thread if you don't want Spoilers? Why is *anyone* in this thread if they don't want spoilers? I'm sorry that you're upset about seeing spoilers in a thread labeled with [Spoilers], but this isn't something you can reasonably blame anyone else for. Thus, your statement, "You came in here and spoiled the novel for people who hadn't read it", meant no doubt as a means to cast me in such a horribly negative light, holds zero merit. It's just yet another one of your many cheap barbs with which you attempt to damage me with. Furthermore, "giving a very one sided account of all the events" is your opinion, but I see now that you've got a habit of believing your opinion is the objective fact. This fact is reinforced by your next statement of, "Having actually read it, I can honestly say that you cast every bit of the story in the worst light possible." This is YOUR opinion. It's as valid as mine, but actually less so, because you've rejected the opinion of someone else's that clash with your own.

"What I object to is you looking down your nose at these novels, all the while offering rather poorly thought out criticisms." Again, your OPINION, delivered from atop a high horse.

"For instance, you deliberately interpret Afafrenfere's line about 'loving the wrong man' to twist it into him seeing his homosexuality as wrong." Actually, you're the one twisting what I've stated. Again. I've explicitly stated that loving the wrong person can do severe damage to anyone, but Bob has made it into something in which anything that is male and nonheterosexual is wrong. Notice how with Afa it isn't so much about loving the wrong "person", but about loving the wrong "man"? What about how, as the only instance of male non-heterosexual representation in OVER THIRTY BOOKS set in a world where "non-standard" sexualities are perfectly fine, draws such a conclusion? If that's not enough, as I suspect it isn't (nor anything else logical for that matter for you), what about the years and years, books upon books of fetishization of female/female romance/sex? The tragic thing about you is that you're so wrapped up in your emotions and some vindictive egotistical need to use me as the target of your frustrations because your delicate pride can't handle someone disagreeing with you that you target me, and me specifically, despite the others that have agreed with my positions and expressed similar things. You even agree with me, in fact, with your statement, "Parbid was an evil assassin who worked for a Netherese mercenary band. The problem was Afafrenfere being dedicated to a certain set of principles, but loving someone who stood in total opposition to those principles." But Bob didn't say "person", did he? He stated "man", didn't focus on the negative aspects of Parbid. Those conclusions are what you've drawn, in your blind fanatical fanboy dedication to Bob.

"You hate RAS so much (for ridiculous reasons like "he fetishizes lesbians") that you're attacking straw men." Now this is interesting. Putting aside yet another presumptuous statement from you about me, how exactly is the fetishization of a sexuality "ridiculous"? Are you claiming that it doesn't happen, or that the fetishization of a natural state of being that a person can't control is not problematic? I'm honestly not sure which is worse. The former makes you blind and incapable of seeing past your fanaticism, whereas the latter makes you nothing short of a bigot. I'd thank you for exposing you to be what you truly are if I were actually spiteful, but more than anything, I feel that it's sad that it's 2016 and people like you exist that passive-aggressively mask your outdated views towards variant sexualities in this and other threads you've posted in in the past, especially in a world where all of them are embraced, still exist. I'm not at all sorry to say that, despite what you want, the world is moving forward, and fantasy literature, as all literature, should move forward with it, to include different types of people, real and imaginary. I'm not sorry that one of your last islands of outdated views is about to be covered with the tide, especially as you use me as an outlet for your frustrations. How about learning to swim instead of clinging to the mediocrity that is drowning you? Although I'm sure you'll find some way to twist my words regardless of the following clarification, I will still say nonetheless, that by "mediocrity", in this case, I mean your approach, your outdated beliefs, you. Not Bob, not Drizzt, you. I don't hate Bob. I don't hate Drizzt. I could hate you, but you're so insignificant that it's just not worth any degree of emotional investment in you. The only way that your assertion even approaches of having any merit is that people, if you can even be called that, like you make me dislike the series. When the fanbase is made up of fanatical screaming fanboys like yourself, it makes me and other people turned off by mob mentality that much less likely to enjoy it. So, in fact, you're the one causing all of this, but then again, that shouldn't be a surprise as you were the one to take offense at nothing and to resort of baseless ad hominem personal attacks, then even displayed such a remarkable feat of self-delusion that you think you haven't done any of the above.

You claim, "I have nothing against you, but I was very much looking forward to discussing this novel with others, and you've dominated the thread with your extreme negativity and distortions of what actually happened", but given that your post and the one before that have been ad hominem attacks against me full of grandstanding, sanctimonious and preachiness based on nothing, your actions very mnuch belie your words.

You claim, "You've spent 20 or 30 posts crying and throwing fits about sexism in fantasy novels (the great scourge of our time), and want to pretend there is something wrong with me for calling your tantrum what it is", but I'm not the one who started distorting your words. Furthermore, you've actually gone back to seize upon a minor fact like my post counts in this thread, something that I'm not even vaguely aware of, to prove a fallible point. What does even that tiny detail about how many posts I've made in this thread matter? It's a minute fact, but one of the few that you can seize upon because fundamentally, you have no argument, no valid position, as all you're doing is attacking me for no other reason than that my opinion differs from yours. By the same token, there was no need to call me out for anything, as if I were in fact throwing a senseless tantrum as you've painted me to be doing, a mod would've stopped me before you ever got the chance to respond. Your "call out", such as it is, is little more than yet another ad hominem and completely pointless personal attack on someone whom you don't know at all, didn't take the time to actually understand, and are doing little more than using as a convenient victim for daring to express views that are evidently in strong opposition to yours.

I'm honestly disappointed that I had even a measure of respect for you. You've done a great job thus far in this forum concealing your true nature. I've tried to ignore something about your posts that've always made me uncomfortable, figuring that the persistent trigger-happy tendency to jump on someone who dared to express a view opposing yours. I figured it was just a unique quirk of the way that you express yourself, but now I see that my instincts were right about you. You pretend to be courteous, pretend to take the high road, but are so quick to descend upon anyone who dares to express how they honestly feel, condemning them if their expressions are too strongly-worded for your tastes. Everyone who disagrees with you should shut up and shut their views in a little box, or else out comes your playground bullying tactics.

Why are you even on a forum when you can't handle any perspectives that deviate more than a little from yours? Despite your claims, you're clearly a brainless fanboy who resorts to violent aggression and targeted attacks on someone who has an opinion as strong as yours but isn't the same as yours. I'm not even sure why I'm bothering to respond, and it's a lesson learned, so I won't be anymore, not to you in any case, as you've shown that you'll only reciprocate with ad hominem attacks for no other reason than someone else expressing their opinion. You pick and choose between posted information, just like how you conveniently skip all the times where I've said, repeatedly, that my opinion is my opinion and I recognize that. The only time that I have been as vociferous in my views as you've painted me to be is when I expressed the ones I have about crack pairings and some of the people associated with propagating them. This is also as far as I would go, because unsubstantiated things like those fundamentally have zero value and thus merits little more than nonsensical reactions.

You, sir, are little more than a troll, using brute force and intimidation tactics to scare others into falling in line. You carry on in this manner because this is the internet, and there are no repercussions for you, and even if you run into a bigger and badder person, they can't do anything to you, even when you rightfully deserve a punch in the face for starting a fight for no reason. You justify your actions by claiming you needed to do deeds that didn't in fact need doing. Your posts in this thread have been dedicated to little substance than to attack me, despite your pretenses otherwise. What does need to happen, in fact, is for someone to stand up to a bully, and that's what I'm doing, with you. I suggest you back off, and should you consider harassing me in a private setting on this forum or elsewhere, know that I'm not ever going to back up from your attacks, even when doubtlessly ad hominem methods have worked successfully for you in the future. I'm certain that you'll recognize my position and stance and assume that it's me even when it isn't, for that's the sort of person you've proven yourself to be. You might be able to cow some of these people into suppressing their opinions, but you're the one in the wrong.

The beauty of this place, Candlekeep Forums, is that people are, for the very most part, capable of independent thought and the ability to be critical about the things they love. What I and others have seen from your behavior, here and elsewhere, is that you do not fall into that category, and you've gone from subtly intimidating others that don't agree with you to outright attacking someone who dares to disagree with you so boldly. But please, keep on kicking and crying into the void. I'm not going to feed your desperate need for attention any longer. In fact, you don't exist anymore as far as I'm concerned, except when you'll inevitably do to someone else the same shit you've tried to do to me, because no doubt you've been led to believe your tactics are as effective as they are because none of your victims have dared to stand up against you, as most people try to avoid confrontation and back down in the face of a screaming foaming at the mouth idiot such as yourself. But hey, you'll get your just rewards. Eventually, someone's going to put you into your rightful place and make you think twice before trying to suppress someone else for no other reason than that they don't blindly worship the things that you do.

Mods, this is the last time that I address this specimen, so no need to worry about any more targeted language from me on this front. The only reason that I'll respond to it in the future is if it posts under a different forum name and I'm not aware that it's the same troll.

Edited by - sno4wy on 26 Oct 2016 16:58:15
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sno4wy
Learned Scribe

USA
278 Posts

Posted - 26 Oct 2016 :  15:56:10  Show Profile Send sno4wy a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by CorellonsDevout
Am I the only one who is happy about Zak's return?



Nah, you definitely aren't the only person happy about Zak's return. :P I think it's fitting that he's back, even though he's no longer my favorite. I just wish that it made more sense. The struggle that I have with it is something that mortsix's post excellently phrased. We've been led to believe that Zak's been in a good place, even told so far as that he was at peace. I'm not sure that any soul in Lolth's possession could ever be at peace, with the closest that they could attain being resignation, as what I believe to be the case with Ryld when he chose Lolth instead of Halisstra. Yet, it was Lolth that returns Zak, so for me, at least, it's really difficult to reconcile this latest piece of information with what we were given before.

I know I'm definitely in the minority with things like this, and trust me, I strongly wish that I could just be happy without wondering about all the implications. Sadly, one can't control how one's brain works. :P
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader

USA
2031 Posts

Posted - 26 Oct 2016 :  19:02:22  Show Profile  Send CorellonsDevout an AOL message Send CorellonsDevout a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Lol well that's why I mentioned the scene I peeked at. Lolth is taunting Drizzt, telling him she cold bring Zaknafein back. Drizzt says something like Zak not belonging to her, that she doesn't have him. Lloth says it doesn't matter, but the narration points out she doesn't deny Drizzt's words (which implies she indeed doesn't have him). It makes me wonder of course how she did it, but...

Sweet water and light laughter
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DandelionClock
Seeker

67 Posts

Posted - 26 Oct 2016 :  19:04:54  Show Profile Send DandelionClock a Private Message  Reply with Quote
The only possible solution is that Yvonnel is really devout to another deity that had him and brought him back, but that's hardly been set up...
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sno4wy
Learned Scribe

USA
278 Posts

Posted - 26 Oct 2016 :  19:41:26  Show Profile Send sno4wy a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by DandelionClock

The only possible solution is that Yvonnel is really devout to another deity that had him and brought him back, but that's hardly been set up...



Agreed, this isn't set up at all. I guess there's always retcon. Yvonnel's whole "development" has been really rushed and I'm honestly not quite sure what to make of it. Her whole story has been a ton of very quickly attained levels that broke all precedents of everyone before her, including Drizzt. It's like riding a roller-coaster that, instead of soaring from peaks to valleys, leaps from peak to peak and it's all done so quickly that it leaves us very little time to think about what the next peak makes much sense. At least, that was my impression of her. She was very evil, going from a downright creepy and completely terrifying baby prodigy of Lolth to someone who completely rejects everything that Lolth stands for, including Lolth herself. I suppose the whole of her is unnatural, so there isn't anything fundamentally wrong with her going from the most favored of Lolth ever to more of a Lolth heretic than Drizzt. Nonetheless, none of this so much as hints at a dedication all along to another diety.
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Drizztsmanchild
Learned Scribe

USA
216 Posts

Posted - 27 Oct 2016 :  03:49:37  Show Profile  Visit Drizztsmanchild's Homepage  Send Drizztsmanchild a Yahoo! Message Send Drizztsmanchild a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by CorellonsDevout

Lol well that's why I mentioned the scene I peeked at. Lolth is taunting Drizzt, telling him she cold bring Zaknafein back. Drizzt says something like Zak not belonging to her, that she doesn't have him. Lloth says it doesn't matter, but the narration points out she doesn't deny Drizzt's words (which implies she indeed doesn't have him). It makes me wonder of course how she did it, but...


Well no one actually says it was Lolth(or Lloth) that actually brought him back(or that is even Zak,though RAS doesn't really offer twists like that). Yvonnel has been an unorthodox character from the end if Maestro and throughout this whole book. She could actually care enough to seek out the real Deity who had Zak's soul. Drizzt does have that affect in people. Lol. I also believe Lloths' actual involvement in Drizzt's life is done. They had their meeting ,she couldn't convince him to serve her, so she's done. He is after all one drow. At least that's the impression i got from their meeting.

Edited by - Drizztsmanchild on 27 Oct 2016 03:53:37
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Lilianviaten
Senior Scribe

487 Posts

Posted - 27 Oct 2016 :  04:19:48  Show Profile Send Lilianviaten a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by sno4wy

quote:
Originally posted by CorellonsDevout
Going back to the characters' sexualities, maybe Jarlaxle and Zak had/will have a relationship ;) Actually, I would support that.



Given that the ending of the book has everyone coupling off and the last scene has Jarlaxle embracing Zaknafein with tears in his eyes, it did make me think a bit of the ending of Legend of Korra where Korra and Asami walk hand-in-hand into the spirit portal.

That being said, this is Bob, who's violently afraid of all things male-nonhet, so I don't think this was his intention. There's in fact this whole paragraph about how Afa's biggest failing is his love for a MAN (specified, not "person", but MAN) who shouldn't have had his love, how it was a huge distraction, a fatal failing, how it made him stray from the rightful and truthful path, which upon his return elevated him to new heights. As I've said before, while loving the wrong person can certainly be destructive, the way that Bob presented it is really problematic. It made it not so much about Afa having a sexuality at all, but rather that he was inclined towards ANOTHER MAN that stygmied his personal growth and progress.

I personally don't much care for the Zak/Jarlaxle pairing, as I've encountered some really gross people with highly problematic views (i.e. rape victim erasure, victim blaming, pro-bullying, ableism, refusal to acknowledge people on the gray/ace spectrum as anything other than "special snowflakes clamoring for attention and making shit up", etc) that are fanatic about this pairing, but I understand the lack of association between the two. Still, I'm colored negatively against it, even if it's not for a valid reason. :P




The last paragraph of this post, along with your ridiculous diatribe below, is indicative of a person who looks for offenses and microaggressions anywhere and everywhere. RAS calls Parbid the wrong man for Afafrenfere to love because Parbid is a MAN! It's that simple. I don't think RAS can be accused of writing particularly complex books.

You obviously have the intellect to follow them, but you're so convinced that everything must somehow be sexist or racist or homophobic or ableist in some way that you imagine these passive aggressive slights that don't exist. Just as you've imagined me to be a bully and a bigot and all these other buzz words because I called you out on the nonsensical posts you've attempted to pass off as some high brow literary criticism. Suddenly I'm Donald Trump just because I don't see all these prejudiced undercurrents in lighthearted fantasy novels. This is pseudo intellectualism at its finest.
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader

USA
2031 Posts

Posted - 27 Oct 2016 :  05:38:31  Show Profile  Send CorellonsDevout an AOL message Send CorellonsDevout a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Drizztsmanchild

quote:
Originally posted by CorellonsDevout

Lol well that's why I mentioned the scene I peeked at. Lolth is taunting Drizzt, telling him she cold bring Zaknafein back. Drizzt says something like Zak not belonging to her, that she doesn't have him. Lloth says it doesn't matter, but the narration points out she doesn't deny Drizzt's words (which implies she indeed doesn't have him). It makes me wonder of course how she did it, but...


Well no one actually says it was Lolth(or Lloth) that actually brought him back(or that is even Zak,though RAS doesn't really offer twists like that). Yvonnel has been an unorthodox character from the end if Maestro and throughout this whole book. She could actually care enough to seek out the real Deity who had Zak's soul. Drizzt does have that affect in people. Lol. I also believe Lloths' actual involvement in Drizzt's life is done. They had their meeting ,she couldn't convince him to serve her, so she's done. He is after all one drow. At least that's the impression i got from their meeting.



I just read the scene where Jarlaxle mentioned to Kane that Zak was watching from "whatever just reward in the afterlife". Given how much Zak is bring mentioned so far in this novel, it is kind of a premonition (though I may not have picked up on it if I didn't already know).

I wasn't implying that Lolth had Zak--I was pointing out that she didn't. But that makes me wonder who did. And it is clearly Zak lol. He says "I want to see my son", and Jarlaxle said "you will be proud".

Sweet water and light laughter
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Drizztsmanchild
Learned Scribe

USA
216 Posts

Posted - 27 Oct 2016 :  10:01:08  Show Profile  Visit Drizztsmanchild's Homepage  Send Drizztsmanchild a Yahoo! Message Send Drizztsmanchild a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by CorellonsDevout

quote:
Originally posted by Drizztsmanchild

quote:
Originally posted by CorellonsDevout

Lol well that's why I mentioned the scene I peeked at. Lolth is taunting Drizzt, telling him she cold bring Zaknafein back. Drizzt says something like Zak not belonging to her, that she doesn't have him. Lloth says it doesn't matter, but the narration points out she doesn't deny Drizzt's words (which implies she indeed doesn't have him). It makes me wonder of course how she did it, but...


Well no one actually says it was Lolth(or Lloth) that actually brought him back(or that is even Zak,though RAS doesn't really offer twists like that). Yvonnel has been an unorthodox character from the end if Maestro and throughout this whole book. She could actually care enough to seek out the real Deity who had Zak's soul. Drizzt does have that affect in people. Lol. I also believe Lloths' actual involvement in Drizzt's life is done. They had their meeting ,she couldn't convince him to serve her, so she's done. He is after all one drow. At least that's the impression i got from their meeting.



I just read the scene where Jarlaxle mentioned to Kane that Zak was watching from "whatever just reward in the afterlife". Given how much Zak is bring mentioned so far in this novel, it is kind of a premonition (though I may not have picked up on it if I didn't already know).

I wasn't implying that Lolth had Zak--I was pointing out that she didn't. But that makes me wonder who did. And it is clearly Zak lol. He says "I want to see my son", and Jarlaxle said "you will be proud".


Lol. Yeah I mentioned that Zak is likely real because of all the "Is Barrabus really Entreri?" And discussions about returned Wulfgar being a plant by Lloth. I forgot about the Kane and Jax Convo, I was basing my point on the Drizzt Lloth Convo. Where he said she didn't have claim on his soul and she didn't deny it,just said "it didn't matter"

Edited by - Drizztsmanchild on 27 Oct 2016 10:03:13
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Madpig
Learned Scribe

Finland
124 Posts

Posted - 27 Oct 2016 :  12:10:40  Show Profile Send Madpig a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I have my say on this book later. For now, i think Mods should clear this scroll. There is so much ranting and negativity on it right now. It really sadens me.
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Irennan
Great Reader

Italy
2714 Posts

Posted - 27 Oct 2016 :  12:58:00  Show Profile Send Irennan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by CorellonsDevout
He says "I want to see my son", and Jarlaxle said "you will be proud".



Well, a deception that is intended to work should be somewhat believable, shouldn't it? :P

But I truly don't think that Zak is part of some scheme by Lolth.

To all Facebook-using FR fans, you might be interested in checking out this page: https://www.facebook.com/groups/450517575051806/
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