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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3802 Posts |
 Posted - 27 Oct 2016 : 16:10:46
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Because the drow are not "genetically" evil, and have never been in the Realms (correct me if I'm wrong, but I've read that even in GH, when they were first introduced, drow commoners were painted in a more neutral light, even as possible allies for the PCs). Given their history, it doesn't make sense. If you take a look at Eilistraee's followers mostly being made up of "tainted" drow, it doesn't make sense. That was something that WotC tried to force in 4e (because apparently Drizzt wasn't special enough in their eyes) but it was reverted in 5e. Besides, why would drow be inherently evil, if tieflings, who have much more fiendish blood, aren't (in 5e it is even said that such blood has 0 influence over their alignment)? In the Realms, not even orcs and goblinoids are irredeemably evil (orcs in Thesk prove that, Many Arrows maintaining peace for more than the entire average lifespan of an orc also proves that they orcs can maintain a civil coexistence with other races. That goblin that Drizzt met also proves it. Mielikki's words are just her take on the race--maybe even only Catti's interpretation of that--IMO, not absolute truth).
It's why Eilistraee intends redemption as embracing a choice, not forcing stuff on the drow, or removing a pseudo original sin.
EDIT: the words about Yvonnel that you posted a while ago point to that as well. They reinforce Eilistraee's point. |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
Edited by - Irennan on 27 Oct 2016 16:33:24 |
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader
USA
2708 Posts |
Posted - 27 Oct 2016 : 16:13:58
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Zak's soul could have gone a number of places. My guess would be Eilistraee, but since Bob doesn't really acknowledge her, I think another god is more liekly. He was no Lolthite, to be sure, and even if he didn't worship another god (or he did it in secret), a god who aligns with his ideology could have easily taken him in. Mielikki is a possibility, even though Drizzt didn't know of her at the tiem, she surely knew of him, being a deity and all.
I am happy Zak has returned, but I am curious about the who/what/when/where/how lol. |
Sweet water and light laughter |
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sno4wy
Senior Scribe
USA
466 Posts |
Posted - 27 Oct 2016 : 17:44:25
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| But why Mielikki, other than her later association with Drizzt? Do gods and goddesses have the ability to see the future? If Drizzt "meeting" her was pre-destined, then sure, I think it'd make sense for her having taken Zak. However, the tenets of Mielikki have nothing to do with drow or anyone who's not a ranger or druid or maybe some other nature-associated thing. I suppose Bob could go that route as Mielikki's the only other diety of prominence in his books, so if the whole world was only his corner of the Realms, then sure, I could see Zak's soul as having been stolen away by Mielikki before Lolth could. Otherwise, in the grand Realmsian scheme, I just don't see why it would be her. :( I mean the other members of the elven pantheon would make more sense, and even with some of them it'd be a stretch. |
Edited by - sno4wy on 27 Oct 2016 17:45:01 |
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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3802 Posts |
Posted - 27 Oct 2016 : 17:48:07
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| I think that many deities have that power, some more than others perhaps. Eilistraee seems to have a rather prominent version of it: in Evermeet it is said that she receives glimpses of the future in the form of visions. She chose to wander Toril among the dark elves because she had foreseen that they would have needed her in the future, for example. |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
Edited by - Irennan on 27 Oct 2016 17:48:32 |
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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3802 Posts |
Posted - 27 Oct 2016 : 17:49:47
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| Perhaps deities see time in a whole different manner from mortals. Maybe they see many different future possibilities at the same time. Although, the way WOtC protrays them, you'd say that they have blinders on :/ |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
Edited by - Irennan on 27 Oct 2016 17:50:11 |
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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3802 Posts |
Posted - 27 Oct 2016 : 17:52:39
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| But, returning to your original point, I don't even know why Mielikki would see Drizzt as a special follower. I don't recall him doing anything particularly meaningful towards the cause of people living in harmony with nature, and things like that. Has Drizzt ever been much of a "tree-hugger"? |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
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DandelionClock
Seeker
67 Posts |
Posted - 27 Oct 2016 : 18:07:44
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Deities have never been written as being able to see into the future in the novels, not even as omniscient, actually. They have, like the Greek pantheon, always been limited players that could be fooled, even if they had the ability to be in many places at once and hear all their followers prayers and follow their paths to a certain extent. it was the only way writing them made sense in a universe that's tied to its playable equivalent, I guess.
As for Drizzt being a follower of Mielikki, maybe being a big player while remaining so was enough. After all, she wasn't exactly a major godess. How many readers know Eldath from the top of their heads who've just followed some of the novel lines? I mean, the audience here isn't especially represantative, so even if lots of *you* may shout"Here, me!" - well - I think you get my point... he's good news because he's news.
And here's a possible solution: By the time he learnt Zak's soul was "in a good place", Drizzt was already a bigger player and had been following Mielikki for quite a while and had been blessed with the sighting of a unicorn relatively early in the books, so it meant something as to his special relationship with the godess. (Sigh, the old times. Now he carries one around, and it's no big deal.)
So, Zak may have wandered the Fugue Plane for quite some time, since Loth had no right to his soul since he defied her. Mielikki could have had pity and picked him up much much later in the books.
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Edited by - DandelionClock on 27 Oct 2016 18:09:27 |
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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3802 Posts |
Posted - 27 Oct 2016 : 18:13:30
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If mortals have spells that allow them to contact deities to receive answers about the future, or spells that flat out make them see the future, then I guess deities can too. Canonically, I think we've only had direct info about Savras (ofc, he's the god of divinations), and Eilistraee having those glimpses of future. But maybe there's more and I'm missing it.
But yeah, in novels they wear blinders. |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
Edited by - Irennan on 27 Oct 2016 18:15:37 |
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DandelionClock
Seeker
67 Posts |
Posted - 27 Oct 2016 : 18:22:15
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| Okay, forget it, the Wall of the Faithless was put back up, I have no idea why I saved it on my mental harddrive as taken down. Probably because I dislike the idea of it. |
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DandelionClock
Seeker
67 Posts |
Posted - 27 Oct 2016 : 18:25:17
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| Let's say it happens now and again that they grant or have visions of the future... I guess mostly plot-convenient future-vision. |
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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3802 Posts |
Posted - 27 Oct 2016 : 18:28:21
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quote:
Originally posted by DandelionClock
had been blessed with the sighting of a unicorn relatively early in the books, so it meant something as to his special relationship with the godess. (Sigh, the old times. Now he carries one around, and it's no big deal.)
Sure, but I was more wondering if an in-world explanation for that was given. If a goddess takes interest in a mortal, it's usually because that mortal has the potential to further their cause, or for a very specific reason (see Mystra and her chosen). That's unless Mielikki simply liked Drizzt. |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
Edited by - Irennan on 27 Oct 2016 18:29:47 |
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sno4wy
Senior Scribe
USA
466 Posts |
Posted - 27 Oct 2016 : 18:42:52
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quote:
Originally posted by Irennan
Sure, but I was more wondering if an in-world explanation for that was given. If a goddess takes interest in a mortal, it's usually because that mortal has the potential to further their cause, or for a very specific reason (see Mystra and her chosen). That's unless Mielikki simply liked Drizzt.
This is my entire struggle with Bob's stuff, there's a great deal of lack of in-world explanations for things. If his books were entirely his setting, then ok, that would remove a bunch of the inconsistencies and only leave the ones that are inconsistent within themselves.
I feel like FR fans can work to come up with viable and believable explanations for all the things that Bob doesn't explain, but to me personally, that exercise always feels more than a little futile. Like, what's the point? I think I want to do it because Bob's books are FR canon and I want there not to be these gaping illogical holes of inconsistency, but I feel like we're futilely trying to tape together a bunch of bandaids and use that to cover up these huge voids. :
On a subject opposite that of the gods, namely, the demon lords, what are the extent of their powers? When Yvonnel used a spriggan disguised as Graz'zt to scare away Malcanchet, how viable is that, in actuality? Yvonnel is a very powerful priestess, but Malcanchet is a demon lord (or "princess", as she's called in the book). Don't creatures of that power level "see" with more than just their visuals? Shouldn't she have been able to sense the true nature of that Graz'zt illusion? I mean, shouldn't it even have been something that Kane sensed (and he seemed to at least a little, in any case)? Which begs the question, if it's something Kane could sense, even being the ascended being that he is, shouldn't Malcanchet be able to as well? |
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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3802 Posts |
Posted - 27 Oct 2016 : 18:47:31
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They usually have things like True Sight that makes illusions hardly viable against them. Some of them even have perma-true sight. But an illusion that manages to scare a demon lord and to win the fight seems very anticlimatic to me :/
Especially because they should be very clever. Which leads to this: did Graz'zt's presence make any sense in that situation? Was he involved somehow in the matter? Was it believable?
If so, then maybe Malcanthet didn't use her true sight and believed it. But if Graz'zt was pulled out of nowhere, then I have no clue. |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
Edited by - Irennan on 27 Oct 2016 18:50:34 |
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sno4wy
Senior Scribe
USA
466 Posts |
Posted - 27 Oct 2016 : 19:16:32
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quote:
Originally posted by Irennan
They usually have things like True Sight that makes illusions hardly viable against them. Some of them even have perma-true sight. But an illusion that manages to scare a demon lord and to win the fight seems very anticlimatic to me :/
Especially because they should be very clever. Which leads to this: did Graz'zt's presence make any sense in that situation? Was he involved somehow in the matter? Was it believable?
If so, then maybe Malcanthet didn't use her true sight and believed it. But if Graz'zt was pulled out of nowhere, then I have no clue.
Yvonnel, who orchestrated the illusion, revealed the fake Graz'zt to Malcanchet. Malcanchet had no idea who Yvonnel was though, until Yvonnel introduced herself as the one who also orchestrated the defeat of Demogorgon. Is it conceivable that Malcanchet knows exactly how Demogorgon was defeated in Menzoberranzan, down to the very details? It isn't like he could've been like, "Hey babe, I'm back in the Abyss now, but just so you know, an upstart young Matron Mother got together with the illithid hivemind and some renegade to defeat me with a psionic trick". It isn't mentioned, only that Malcanchet was threatened by the presence of Graz'zt prowling through the Underdark.
She took up Yvonnel's story pretty quickly, but come to think of it, I don't understand why Graz'zt would've been all the way in the Bloodstone Lands when he was last seen in the Underdark near the Gauntlgrym area. Malcanchet asked Yvonnel if the drow desired a war against her, and Yvonnel replied to the effect of that they'd rather have a war against Malcanchet than against Graz'zt, and that was when "Graz'zt" was revealed. Malcanchet turned tail and ran, right back to the Abyss, yet, at that. |
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sno4wy
Senior Scribe
USA
466 Posts |
Posted - 27 Oct 2016 : 19:19:52
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| I feel like, it might've been a clever ruse, but it's a difficult one to accept. Then again, I'm not clear about the exact dynamics between Malcanchet and Graz'zt, nor of passive demon powers (such as perma-true sight). I also don't know the exact level of loathing that demons have for the Abyss, or rather, the level of desire for and relish of them being on the Prime Material Plane. Malcanchet certainly ran back into the Abyss quickly enough, so that makes me wonder: is she *that* terrified of Graz'zt? So much so that she wouldn't try truesight, or at least some other sort of way to "measure" him, think about negotiations, or flee to a different part of Toril but on the Prime? Does what she did make sense? |
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader
USA
2708 Posts |
Posted - 27 Oct 2016 : 22:28:36
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Okay, I finished the book. I actually liked it for the most part, though it felt a bit rushed, like he was trying to cram a lot into the last volume. I have some issues, but I give it 4 stars. I feel it is a good ending to a long series.
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Sweet water and light laughter |
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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3802 Posts |
Posted - 28 Oct 2016 : 01:11:51
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quote:
Originally posted by sno4wy
I feel like, it might've been a clever ruse, but it's a difficult one to accept. Then again, I'm not clear about the exact dynamics between Malcanchet and Graz'zt, nor of passive demon powers (such as perma-true sight). I also don't know the exact level of loathing that demons have for the Abyss, or rather, the level of desire for and relish of them being on the Prime Material Plane. Malcanchet certainly ran back into the Abyss quickly enough, so that makes me wonder: is she *that* terrified of Graz'zt? So much so that she wouldn't try truesight, or at least some other sort of way to "measure" him, think about negotiations, or flee to a different part of Toril but on the Prime? Does what she did make sense?
Malcanthet and Graz'zt are decidedly enemies. I think that it's a nice alternative to defeat such a creature (at least they didn't use magic and other tricks to power up Drizzt and turn him into the uber juggernaut of doom to 1 shot Malcanthet), but it would have felt better if they had used something to empower that illusion. Mostly because a demon lord is a really smart entity, and Malcanthet is supposed to be really good at manipulating and deceiving, so she should be good at recognizing a ruse. |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
Edited by - Irennan on 28 Oct 2016 01:13:02 |
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sno4wy
Senior Scribe
USA
466 Posts |
Posted - 28 Oct 2016 : 01:58:21
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| Returning to the discussion of drow not being genetically evil and the mention that tieflings now necessarily being evil even though they carry "evil blood", would it follow then that half-orcs shouldn't be anymore likened to their orcish heritage than tieflings should be to their devilish ones? I ask, because I thought it very odd that Palishchuck was used as an example as to why not all orcs are evil. I feel like's as faulty of a parallel to draw as it is to use any sort of half-race to assess the qualities of their parent race. |
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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3802 Posts |
Posted - 28 Oct 2016 : 02:07:59
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| I agree that using a half orc as a basis to claim that not all orcs are X isn't correct. But we do have examples of groups of orcs being able to act civilized in the Realms. |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
Edited by - Irennan on 28 Oct 2016 02:08:22 |
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Drizztsmanchild
Learned Scribe
USA
228 Posts |
Posted - 28 Oct 2016 : 03:22:29
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quote:
Originally posted by Irennan
quote:
Originally posted by sno4wy
I feel like, it might've been a clever ruse, but it's a difficult one to accept. Then again, I'm not clear about the exact dynamics between Malcanchet and Graz'zt, nor of passive demon powers (such as perma-true sight). I also don't know the exact level of loathing that demons have for the Abyss, or rather, the level of desire for and relish of them being on the Prime Material Plane. Malcanchet certainly ran back into the Abyss quickly enough, so that makes me wonder: is she *that* terrified of Graz'zt? So much so that she wouldn't try truesight, or at least some other sort of way to "measure" him, think about negotiations, or flee to a different part of Toril but on the Prime? Does what she did make sense?
Malcanthet and Graz'zt are decidedly enemies. I think that it's a nice alternative to defeat such a creature (at least they didn't use magic and other tricks to power up Drizzt and turn him into the uber juggernaut of doom to 1 shot Malcanthet), but it would have felt better if they had used something to empower that illusion. Mostly because a demon lord is a really smart entity, and Malcanthet is supposed to be really good at manipulating and deceiving, so she should be good at recognizing a ruse.
Do you think that maybe since Malcanthet knows of the drow and how devious and powerful they are,topped with the fact that she is mortal enemies with Gra'zt that maybe she did take it at face value? It would be different if it was say a human wizard using the Spriggin for the same purpose. Just curious |
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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3802 Posts |
Posted - 28 Oct 2016 : 03:35:23
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| She's devious and powerful as well. The drow being devious and powerful could also ring all sorts of alarm bells in regards of possible deceptions. I just think that the trick would be more respectful of a demon lord's power, if the illusion wasn't just a normal illusion. |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
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sno4wy
Senior Scribe
USA
466 Posts |
Posted - 28 Oct 2016 : 04:07:12
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I agree, Irennan.
Since we've got you here answers-man (;P), I was hoping you could help me with something. One thing that bothered me a bit was the title "Mistress of the East Wind" as the title for one of the higher-ranking monks in the Order of the Yellow Rose. Shouldn't the title be "Master of --" regardless of gender, because the "Master" in that context refers to "Mastery"? At least, that's been my understanding of monk orders, and that's the case with real life monk orders. It's different from how the Grandfather of Assassins is the Grandmother of Assassins if the head is a woman instead of a man, or at least, that was my impression? |
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Madpig
Learned Scribe
Finland
148 Posts |
Posted - 28 Oct 2016 : 06:13:01
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quote:
Originally posted by sno4wy
I agree, Irennan.
Since we've got you here answers-man (;P), I was hoping you could help me with something. One thing that bothered me a bit was the title "Mistress of the East Wind" as the title for one of the higher-ranking monks in the Order of the Yellow Rose. Shouldn't the title be "Master of --" regardless of gender, because the "Master" in that context refers to "Mastery"? At least, that's been my understanding of monk orders, and that's the case with real life monk orders. It's different from how the Grandfather of Assassins is the Grandmother of Assassins if the head is a woman instead of a man, or at least, that was my impression?
As monastary of Yellow Rose is mainly Bob's creation, (as are Bloodstone Lands as whole) I'd say he's word is good there.
I have to say I have skipped a LOT of Drizzt's battle skenes since HBT, but he's maches against Kane were good. Just now waiting to Drizzt to get 10lvls of monk to he's next writeup  |
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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3802 Posts |
Posted - 28 Oct 2016 : 14:33:23
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@sno4wy I'm far from being the answers-man here, lol
Not sure how to asnwer the question. The monastery is RAS' creation, so I agree with Madpig that his word is good. However what you say makes sense. |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
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Corrupteddragon
Acolyte
USA
17 Posts |
Posted - 30 Oct 2016 : 04:45:17
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I found the ending to be a decent ending to the series (for now hopefully), but overall I found the majority of the book disappointing. It reminded me a lot of my least favorite of the series, The Spine of the World.
Wulfgar and Regis are my two least liked characters of the series and the book was about 50% them. I found myself growing bored and slogging through their part of the book. |
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader
USA
2708 Posts |
Posted - 30 Oct 2016 : 14:16:48
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| I like Regis, but have never been a Wulfgar fan, and I have liked him even less in the last few books. |
Sweet water and light laughter |
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DandelionClock
Seeker
67 Posts |
Posted - 31 Oct 2016 : 14:46:15
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I always liked that he reacted fairly human-like to what he'd been put through and snapped out of it. So I liked his parts of "Spine of the world". I could have done much less with Meralda's POV and her insufferable family and her stupid arranged marriage. I also wondered, reading Hero, why Cattie Brie never told him what she'd found out about Colson's life, she would know it mattered to him, and seriously? They may have been busy, but that was just one point where I wondered, you spent at least a few evenings together that were kind of quiet, did you ever talk? Don't life long friends and companions do that? Do you just go offline by now when you don't fight?
You could have done so much with Wulfgar's background story, too, like, show him more tolerantly than the other companions when people aren't at their best, or, show him being able to handle stuff someone with several kids and grandkids would know but people don't expect from someone looking like they're in their 20ties. Stuff like that. |
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sno4wy
Senior Scribe
USA
466 Posts |
Posted - 31 Oct 2016 : 15:03:38
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| I also felt that the treatment of Colson was really unrealistic. I mean, Regis, who's arguably the closest to Wulfgar among all of the CotH, even forgot who Colson was. I mean, how do you forget something as major as that, especially when it was a really big deal to someone who's possibly the best of your best friends? O_o |
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DandelionClock
Seeker
67 Posts |
Posted - 31 Oct 2016 : 15:11:55
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"Oh yeah, that kid you raised and then separated from and dropped of at her bio mom." No wonder they're so nonchalant about his fears regrding possible further offspring he's never gonna see. Weird. And a bit sad. It's one more of these moments where the CotH come across as estranged but in denial about it.
PS: I am a sucker for warm, genuine friendships, especially in otherwise action laden high fantasy stuff. You can sell me anything if the bonds betweeŽn chars come across as genuine. |
Edited by - DandelionClock on 31 Oct 2016 16:05:34 |
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Fellfire
Master of Realmslore
1965 Posts |
Posted - 31 Oct 2016 : 22:50:10
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| Wigglefingers? Toofless? Is this a joke? How old does he think his target readers are? Drivel. |
Misanthorpe
Love is a lie. Only hate endures. Light is blinding. Only in darkness do we see clearly.
"Oh, you think darkness is your ally? You merely adopted the dark. I was born in it, molded by it. I didn't see the light until I was already a man, by then it was nothing to me but.. blinding. The shadows betray you because they belong to me." - Bane The Dark Knight Rises
Green Dragonscale Dice Bag by Crystalsidyll - check it out
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Hero [Spoilers]
