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Irennan
Great Reader

Italy
2572 Posts

Posted - 16 Oct 2016 :  16:19:39  Show Profile Send Irennan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Take from it what you will, but given how Bob explicitly feels about Eilistraee, I wouldn't be surprised if this is a last-ditch effort to negate her and everything she stands for.


Ah, I see. While I think that it's OOC for Lolth, who just revels in suffering and misery, and whose chaos isn't actual chaos but just strife, I was thinking that RAS had it more direct and explicit. Given what I read that RAS said about Eilistraee, I wouldn't exclude what you said. But IMO it doesn't come close to achieving that. Because, while Eilistraee is big on choice and redemption, that's not her only major theme; and because Lolth is clearly not going to stop tormenting the drow (and with Lolth's being Lolth, there could be some sinister purpose in bringing Zak back).

Although I can see what you mean. When Drizzt, who even despises/d his people, apparently grabs Eilistraee's goal and succeeds at changing Lolth, while not even Eilistraee, Lolth's own daughter, stands any chance. But hey, I'm used to that. From what I can see, since late 3e, WotC has really been enjoying to downplay or cheapen anything drow that isn't Lolth or RAS' work.

To all Facebook-using FR fans, you might be interested in checking out this page: https://www.facebook.com/groups/450517575051806/

Edited by - Irennan on 16 Oct 2016 16:30:07
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sno4wy
Learned Scribe

USA
272 Posts

Posted - 16 Oct 2016 :  16:21:31  Show Profile Send sno4wy a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by CorellonsDevout
Erm...in all honesty, that just made me SO happy. Omg! I am actually really excited now lol.



*shrug* I really liked Zaknafein at one point, but then over time I just realized that he never had much dimension to his character. I mean, what's there to his personality other than that he as the first representation in Bob's books of what most male drow in a Lolthite society felt like? Oh, and his love for his son, I suppose... but other than that, I felt he was quite bland. I could never understood why people were as into him as they were.

Bob's books have always been inconsistent, but those issues have gotten big and just world-breakingly glaring now. Bob explicitly said that Lolth didn't have Zak, which begged the question of, well, who did? Especially since Mielikki hadn't entered the picture yet and Bob refuses to acknowledge Eilistraee. But now, Lolth is the one to return Zak, so... in the end, she had him all along? Wut?


My head is one big spinning jumbled mess in regards to Bob's books. I'm really honestly glad that there will be no more Drizzt, hopefully not anyway, even if that doesn't bode well for the FR novel line.
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CorellonsDevout
Master of Realmslore

USA
1747 Posts

Posted - 16 Oct 2016 :  16:31:23  Show Profile  Send CorellonsDevout an AOL message Send CorellonsDevout a Private Message  Reply with Quote
This does beg the question though : Zak's spirit once told Drizzt he was in a "good place", and that certainly wouldn't be Lolth's realm. But if it was Lolth who brought him back, that would suggest he was in the Abyss . I am happy about this,I have to say. But I don't like the possibility it negates Eilistraee. That's probably the only thing I would be miffed about in regards to this whole thing.


Sweet water and light laughter
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sno4wy
Learned Scribe

USA
272 Posts

Posted - 16 Oct 2016 :  16:32:52  Show Profile Send sno4wy a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by CorellonsDevout

This does beg the question though : Zak's spirit once told Drizzt he was in a "good place", and that certainly wouldn't be Lolth's realm. But if it was Lolth who brought him back, that would suggest he was in the Abyss .


Exactly as you point out. This is why I said the inconsistencies that have become standard in RAS' Drizzt books has reached world-breaking levels.

Edit: But you know, maybe it is as Irennan said, that Lolth had some sinister purpose in giving Zak back. Maybe it isn't really Zak, because I can't imagine even devout drow describing the Abyss as a good place. Demons, maybe, and some other beings... but anyway, maybe it's a fake Zak there to catch Drizzt unaware only to stab him in the face. :P That'd make me laugh, honestly, but then again, as I've said, Bob's books have made me bitter, cynical and jaded. ;P

Edited by - sno4wy on 16 Oct 2016 16:37:04
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Irennan
Great Reader

Italy
2572 Posts

Posted - 16 Oct 2016 :  16:38:26  Show Profile Send Irennan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
The only other possibility is that Zak lied when he said that he was in a good place, in order to not make Drizzt feel bad.

To all Facebook-using FR fans, you might be interested in checking out this page: https://www.facebook.com/groups/450517575051806/
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Irennan
Great Reader

Italy
2572 Posts

Posted - 16 Oct 2016 :  16:41:16  Show Profile Send Irennan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Btw, @CD didn't RAS once tell you that Zak was in Green Fields? Lol

To all Facebook-using FR fans, you might be interested in checking out this page: https://www.facebook.com/groups/450517575051806/
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sno4wy
Learned Scribe

USA
272 Posts

Posted - 16 Oct 2016 :  16:44:21  Show Profile Send sno4wy a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Wait, why would Zak be in the Green Fields? O_o I mean, why would *any* drow not affiliated with halflings be in the Green Fields other than that time Gromph ended up there as a fluke?

*massages head* Owww....

Edited by - sno4wy on 16 Oct 2016 16:44:42
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Irennan
Great Reader

Italy
2572 Posts

Posted - 16 Oct 2016 :  16:49:46  Show Profile Send Irennan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Idk about that.

In any case, re: value of death for RAS. To be fair, death has become meaningless in the Realms as a whole. The whole metaplot has become meaningless, and it can hardly be taken seriously anymore. It's so very comic book-ish. But then, that's the result of WotC's making deaths meaningless and forced in first place, by blowing up stuff because of fireworks, or because they didn't like a given thing so it had to be destroyed. So, w/e I guess

Although unlike many other deaths forced by WotC's little hand, Zak's wasn't, and it was a good sacrifice.

To all Facebook-using FR fans, you might be interested in checking out this page: https://www.facebook.com/groups/450517575051806/

Edited by - Irennan on 16 Oct 2016 16:50:19
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sno4wy
Learned Scribe

USA
272 Posts

Posted - 16 Oct 2016 :  16:53:19  Show Profile Send sno4wy a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Well, death as a whole in a magic-laden world shouldn't be a big deal. I don't know why Bob has always treated it like it is in our world, instead of just accepting the non-absolutism of it. I mean, that's handled in stride in other realms books. It should be a casual thing, like in one Brimstone Angels book, a servant got caught in a crossfire and died, and Farideh offers to pay for his resurrection because it was due to her own carelessness that he died. No big deal. Kemp examines the implications of resurrection some in Erevis Cale regarding Jak Fleet, but again, that should be how it is. Meanwhile, in Drizzt's corner of the realms, there's this inconsistency where it's just like death is a big deal in a world where it really isn't.

Edited by - sno4wy on 16 Oct 2016 16:53:57
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Shadolan
Seeker

29 Posts

Posted - 16 Oct 2016 :  16:55:58  Show Profile Send Shadolan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by sno4wy

[quote][i]
I understand what you're saying, and even agree to an extent, definitely regarding the part about Catti. However, I feel that our romantic involvements don't define us, and there are people out there that'd be perfectly happy without being in a relationship. Furthermore, relationships don't fix all of us, not to mention that the wrong kind of romantic relationship, like the one with Dahlia, could very well end up doing more damage in the end. I believe Artemis is one such person. Sure, he'd be hurt, and affected by the sadness for a good long while, but I think he'd be more or less ok on his own. I think a healthy friendship with someone who gets him rather than trying to bend him into something they see as ideal would do him a lot better than a relationship.

Tbh, I think it would've been better if Dahlia died. Despite what she claimed, I think the reality to her character would be that she'd still have been pining over Drizzt, and have a lot of trouble staying loyal to Artemis because she fundamentally doesn't know what she wants. Neither does Artemis, but he's a lot further down the road than Dahlia is. What I see happening to their relationship is like what is finally covered regarding what happened with Calihye -- after maybe a couple of years, Artemis will drift away from Dahlia because they're at very different stages of life. Nonetheless, that path would cause a lot more pain for Arte in the long run.




Its certainly true that relationships can cause more bad than good. Even Drizzt and Catti did go through some drama regarding whether they should have kids given Drizzt's heritage or not since those kids may not be accepted by those who haven't heard about Drizzt. Or the issue of whether Drizzt will be able to move on or be happy once Catti inevitably dies before him. Drizzt angsting over the Neverwinter Saga did show how love can lead to plenty of pain. And of course we also had before that the Drizzt/Catti/Wulfgar love triangle with the former two not knowing how should they act given their respect for Wulfgar.

When it comes to Artemis I think the guy actually knows what he wants. He likely always knew but simply chose not to acknowledge it and keep his real feelings hidden. The problem with Artemis was his distrust in others and his fear of being betrayed as it happened to him numerous times in the past. With his mother being the number 1 example. Still, I'm sure that deep down he desired to have someone by his side. Someone whom he could trust and could share both good and bad moments. The closest before to that was Dwahwel whom Arty truly seemed to consider his one true friend. Jarlaxle on the other hand despite his charm and friendly nature is the type of guy who lets the thrill and greed take over his more positive qualities and does not worry that he may bring ruin upon those who get caught in his deadly games. That is why I do not see him as a true friend of Arty.

Now when it comes to relationships I think Arty greatly improved in that regard since Calihye. In the Last Threshold and more so in the Night of the Hunter Arty proved capable of being quite perceptive when it comes to Dhalia's feelings and surprised her several times by pointing things that she was hiding or was unwilling to admit. One of my favorite moments was how Arty in NotH was actually able to realize Dahlia's "death game" and point out her desire to be killed by a perfect lover who will free her of her pain. By the end of said conversation he had Dahlia realizing that she does not really want Drizzt dead and even apologizing for her selfish behavior. Drizzt in contrast due to his inexperience in relationships couldn't understand Dahlia's feelings at all and did make her angry over and over with Arty himself pointing on one of those occasions how foolish Drizzt can be in that regard if he keeps trying to calm an enraged Dahlia despite not even knowing why she is angry in the first place.

I think it shows how all those years did make Arty acquire much more emotional intelligence and insight when it comes to relationships in contrast to how he couldn't read Calihye's feelings at all and actually committed similar mistakes as Drizzt himself by wanting to abandon her first for her sake while not understanding how truly she felt. Being skilled at reading your partner's emotions correctly is IMO one of the key aspects in having a successful relationship.

As for Dahlia herself she is still a brat. Only 50 years old so around the age Drizzt was when he barely left the underdark. She is far more experienced when it comes to seeing all the uglier sides of life which makes her "life hardened". Emotionally however she is still little more than a girl. A girl that was raped at a very young age, believed herself to have committed child killing and was obsessed in dying at the hands of the right guy. Later on it only got uglier with Lloth and an Illithid messing with her mind to the point of making her truly little more than a vegetable.

IMO Dahlia did not love Drizzt in the sense that one loves someone whom they truly understand but rather in the way someone admires an idol or a celebrity. Dahlia not unlike Arty respected Drizzt a lot for him being able to stay true his ideals despite facing the darkness of life unlike herself. In Drizzt she also saw the perfect lover to grant her peace. Alas they were quite incompatible due to their vastly different moral compasses, goals and temperaments. There was also the matter of pride as she hated losing to a "ghost".

Regarding Artemis I think Dahlia for a long time did not realize that she came to love him. Her jealousy moments were likely something she herself did not understand. In the Last Threshold there is a moment when Dahlia realizes to her surprise that if Arty won't be aboard for the return journey from Baldurs Gate then neither would she. Or how in NotH she was clinging to Drizzt's image when under Llolth's control but was surprised that the image of the person she cared the most turned out to be Arty.

Arty's strength is that he already got some experience with emotionally scarred women and is quite wise and mature with almost 200 years of experience under his belt. Is Dahlia worth the effort? Maybe yes or maybe not but it shows a lot about Arty how he is now able to risk emotional hurting for the sake of someone he cares about. He was shown even capable of risking his life for Afarenfere before so its not just romance for him but a discovery of the importance of friendship and trust itself. Even if he does not become a paladin(lol) I think he will be able to enjoy his life much more than when he was hiding from all bonds which he believed were just a weakness that would leave him hurt or dead.

Damn, I wrote too much lol.

Edited by - Shadolan on 16 Oct 2016 17:00:19
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Irennan
Great Reader

Italy
2572 Posts

Posted - 16 Oct 2016 :  17:01:05  Show Profile Send Irennan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
There's another thread about this. But resurrection isn't an easy thing to find. Since in theory most inhabitants of the world should be classless, and most people with classes should be like up to lvl 3 (?). So you need to find a cleric capable of casting resurrection, that is willing to do it, the resources to pay for it (What was it, 10k gold in diamond dust?), and you need to have a whole, preserved body. Unless you can find a super powerful cleric capable of casting 9th level spells and willing to help you. But they should be truly a rarity (although IIRC in the 3e FRCS it is said that in Shieldmeets Kelemvorite priests can sometimes cast True Resurrection to bring back the deceased "heroes of the world" when there's need of it).

What I meant, is that in the FR everyone and everything gets blown up and then comes back all the time, to the point where both the deaths and their undoing are cheap (and I don't really blame the authors for this, but the guys at WotC that handle the whole metaplot).

To all Facebook-using FR fans, you might be interested in checking out this page: https://www.facebook.com/groups/450517575051806/

Edited by - Irennan on 16 Oct 2016 17:08:15
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sno4wy
Learned Scribe

USA
272 Posts

Posted - 16 Oct 2016 :  17:07:09  Show Profile Send sno4wy a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Irennan

There's another thread about this. But resurrection isn't an easy thing to find. Since in theory most inhabitants of the world should be classless, and most people with classes should be like up to lvl 3 (?). So you need to find a cleric capable of casting resurrection, that is willing to do it, the resources to pay for it (What was it, 10k gold in diamond dust?), and you need to have a whole, preserved body. Unless you can find a super powerful cleric capable of casting 9th level spells and willing to help you. But they should be truly a rarity (although IIRC in the 3e FRCS it is said that in Shieldmeets Kelemvorite priests can sometimes cast True Resurrection to bring back the deceased "heroes of the world" when there's need of it).

What I meant, is that in the FR everyone and everything gets blown up and then comes back all the time, to the point where both the deaths and their undoing are cheap.



I agree and am aware of the costs of resurrection. I haven't seen that other post, but what you've said is familiar to me.

The thing is, Drizzt & co aren't exactly your average Joes, not by a long shot. I mean, heck, with Mithril Hall, they had the treasuries of one dwarven kingdom, and now with Gauntylgrm... yeah, I don't think the costs of resurrection are prohibitive to them. :P

Edit: And with all the grand deeds that they've accomplished, finding an appropriate level cleric shouldn't be too difficult either.

The thing that I struggle with a lot in Bob's books is that it's difficult to reconcile all of what's stated as happening without coming to some really far-fetched conclusions sometimes. It often feels like we need to do the thinking for him or come up with elaborate scenarios to explain why things are the way they are. I don't feel like that's how a book should be, but that's just my opinion. Like this thing with Zak coming back, as the most recent example of this sort of gaping inconsistency., with one of the next most recent inconsistencies being Artemis' (lack of) history with Khazid'hea. Many times, I wonder why these brilliant and seasoned characters don't think of a really obvious solution, and the only thing that makes sense is that they're actually not as brilliant as they're made out to seem. I don't know. It's really frustrating.

Edited by - sno4wy on 16 Oct 2016 17:16:11
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Irennan
Great Reader

Italy
2572 Posts

Posted - 16 Oct 2016 :  17:16:52  Show Profile Send Irennan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Ah yes, that's true too, and I can understand what you're saying (both for the resurrection and the idiot-ball syndrome). Another example would be why people as powerful as the 7 sisters don't resurrect their loved ones, but then there is always the possibility of resurrection for random characters.

The thing is: if death can be undone at any time, why even bother with it? It reduces risks and introduces the need for a character to be disintegrated in order to make their death last any long (and even then, at a certain power level, death is merely a setback, so you need BS like "soul destroying" weapons to make it matter. And even in that case, they won't work--see LP--). The fact that people can return as a ghost and be essentially themselves but with an ethereal body makes death even more irrelevant. On the other side of the spectrum, death loses its value if it's done too often and cheaply, like WotC did when handling the Realms.

So, at this point, death really has 0 value in the Realms as a whole (IMO at least).

To all Facebook-using FR fans, you might be interested in checking out this page: https://www.facebook.com/groups/450517575051806/

Edited by - Irennan on 16 Oct 2016 17:18:59
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CorellonsDevout
Master of Realmslore

USA
1747 Posts

Posted - 16 Oct 2016 :  17:20:37  Show Profile  Send CorellonsDevout an AOL message Send CorellonsDevout a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Irennan

Btw, @CD didn't RAS once tell you that Zak was in Green Fields? Lol



Yes, he did lol, though I think he was getting it mixed up with the name of another plane. Given how little Bob likes to deal with gods (at least until his most recent works), it wouldn't surprise me if he wasn't familiar with the names.

I will have to reat the book for myself and draw my own conclusions, but this does make me happy, even as it raises questions.

Sweet water and light laughter
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Shadolan
Seeker

29 Posts

Posted - 16 Oct 2016 :  17:20:44  Show Profile Send Shadolan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by sno4wy



Agreed. Entreri, I'd even argue, had it harder than Drizzt. Sure, Drizzt lived in a dystopian society, but he always had at least one shining beacon to guide him through. There was Zak, who loved him unconditionally, and then there was Gwen, always at his side, so much so that she shattered magical constraints that are supposed to be absolute. I personally find that pretty lame and one of the many traits that make Drizzt a Gary Stu, but whatever, it is what it is. Artemis, on the other hand, didn't have that, and stilled walked a very dark path. Was his world darker than Drizzt's? Maybe, maybe not, it's really hard to say. However, it's about the relative darkness, which is so much deeper when one does not have a guiding light.

I would argue that the way that Bob forced Artemis to walk the path of redemption does, in fact, drive home the moral that one can't expect to find happiness without conforming to societal expectations, of being good and the like. The thing is, many people are troubled or traumatized, and they can't do that. I'm not saying that it's ok for these people to go out and kill other people or commit crimes of other natures, but there needs to be the understanding that everyone needs to be able to cope their own way. I've always hated Drizzt for how invalidating he's always been towards Artemis. He's never bothered to get to know the man, only basing his judgments on his assumptions and surface observations, and in the end he's all like, "Yay Artemis has become what I'd always hoped!!" It's vapid and stupid. At least Jarlaxle, for all of his proclivities towards manipulating others, at least sincerely tried to figure out who Artemis is and what were the things driving and torturing him.





Drizzt was indeed very lucky by meeting so many people that supported him and gave him hope for the better. Zak, Clacker, Belwar, Montolio, Companions of the Hall in general...the guy was very lucky by hardly ever being betrayed by those he trusted the most. Regarding people like his "mom" and other meanier dark elves his expectations were never high therefore he was hardly ever particularly disappointed.

Despite living in an evil society Drizzt managed to stay pure by not being exposed to certain mind breaking practices that folks like Arty or Dahlia experienced. In fact when Drizzt learned that Dahlia was raped he could barely comprehend it and was unsure how he would find any common ground with her there. Clearly neither his sisters nor other peers never molested -much less raped- him as a kid. Would Drizzt still kept his ideals if say...Zak and Belwar sold him into slavery and let slavers do disgusting stuff to him on top of that.

It shows how one of Drizzt's main faults there is how he judged other people so easily by painting them as good or evil while knowing so little about them or what drove them to villainy or to become so disillusioned with the world in general. Or that can there be a way of living that is fair enough without being at the same high standards that he believes necessary for one to be "good".

Drizzt for all he suffered is still quite naive which is why Dahlia says that despite being so much younger than him she is much more experienced when it comes to understanding life. Being such a paragon of virtue Drizzt can often be despite himself a bit too self righteous IMO...

Perhaps in a way Arty or other "evil" people becoming just like him(redeemed) would confirm him that his path is the right one. Drizzt is a character filled with so much doubt about everything in his life that he seems to need some sort of proof to keep believing in a better future. Being a guy who does not believe in gods the same way others do he just stays true to what his heart tells him is right.

Alas those doubts are strong and IMO this is why he was hit so hard with the "mental illness" in Maestro.

Edited by - Shadolan on 16 Oct 2016 17:33:11
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Lilianviaten
Senior Scribe

486 Posts

Posted - 16 Oct 2016 :  22:14:25  Show Profile Send Lilianviaten a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by sno4wy

quote:
Originally posted by CorellonsDevout
Erm...in all honesty, that just made me SO happy. Omg! I am actually really excited now lol.



*shrug* I really liked Zaknafein at one point, but then over time I just realized that he never had much dimension to his character. I mean, what's there to his personality other than that he as the first representation in Bob's books of what most male drow in a Lolthite society felt like? Oh, and his love for his son, I suppose... but other than that, I felt he was quite bland. I could never understood why people were as into him as they were.

Bob's books have always been inconsistent, but those issues have gotten big and just world-breakingly glaring now. Bob explicitly said that Lolth didn't have Zak, which begged the question of, well, who did? Especially since Mielikki hadn't entered the picture yet and Bob refuses to acknowledge Eilistraee. But now, Lolth is the one to return Zak, so... in the end, she had him all along? Wut?


My head is one big spinning jumbled mess in regards to Bob's books. I'm really honestly glad that there will be no more Drizzt, hopefully not anyway, even if that doesn't bode well for the FR novel line.




That level of spite is absurd and completely illogical. You don't have to read any of Salvatore's books. If the novel line continues, you can read the authors you enjoy and not read Drizzt books. But you're so against the idea of that particular story, that you would rather not get to read any more books if the novel line ends than have Drizzt continue.

Thousands and thousands of people have expressed sadness that the Drizzt books are ending, and you're happy because they won't get to enjoy those novels anymore. That's insane. Doesn't it make more logical sense for you to be happy ignoring anything Salvatore writes and also being happy that those who do enjoy him get to read the books?

The same group of purists who whined endlessly about 4e are the ones who brought us 4e. WOTC got so tired of hearing them whine that they just (stupidly) destroyed everything that anyone complained about, all at once. But my goodness, I just don't understand it. Should we start a petition for WOTC to declare all Drizzt books non canon? Are the Cadderly books ok, or should those be non canon as well? At what point will you feel that Salvatore's influence has been sufficiently purged from Forgotten Realms?
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DandelionClock
Seeker

67 Posts

Posted - 16 Oct 2016 :  22:21:33  Show Profile Send DandelionClock a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Hey, some people snark because they care. :)
Have you never really loved a series and griped all the more because you felt it could have been better if not for executive decisions and pressure? Say, the last two X-Files seasons, the alternative star Trek timeline, the rushed ending of Twin Peaks, some of the latest Simpson seasons...
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Irennan
Great Reader

Italy
2572 Posts

Posted - 16 Oct 2016 :  22:24:05  Show Profile Send Irennan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Lilianviaten
The same group of purists who whined endlessly about 4e are the ones who brought us 4e. WOTC got so tired of hearing them whine that they just (stupidly) destroyed everything that anyone complained about, all at once.



I wasn't there when WotC decided to make 4e, but from what I've read, WotC did exactly the contrary of that. They didn't listen to the fans of the setting, who (for the most part) complained *against* the changes that would have led to 4e.

To all Facebook-using FR fans, you might be interested in checking out this page: https://www.facebook.com/groups/450517575051806/
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DandelionClock
Seeker

67 Posts

Posted - 16 Oct 2016 :  22:29:19  Show Profile Send DandelionClock a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Yup, trying to attract a new crowd while the old fans keep 3.5 around. Or something.
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Shadolan
Seeker

29 Posts

Posted - 16 Oct 2016 :  22:31:55  Show Profile Send Shadolan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Lilianviaten

That level of spite is absurd and completely illogical. You don't have to read any of Salvatore's books. If the novel line continues, you can read the authors you enjoy and not read Drizzt books. But you're so against the idea of that particular story, that you would rather not get to read any more books if the novel line ends than have Drizzt continue.

Thousands and thousands of people have expressed sadness that the Drizzt books are ending, and you're happy because they won't get to enjoy those novels anymore. That's insane. Doesn't it make more logical sense for you to be happy ignoring anything Salvatore writes and also being happy that those who do enjoy him get to read the books?

The same group of purists who whined endlessly about 4e are the ones who brought us 4e. WOTC got so tired of hearing them whine that they just (stupidly) destroyed everything that anyone complained about, all at once. But my goodness, I just don't understand it. Should we start a petition for WOTC to declare all Drizzt books non canon? Are the Cadderly books ok, or should those be non canon as well? At what point will you feel that Salvatore's influence has been sufficiently purged from Forgotten Realms?



I think that this is a love/hate attitude. On one hand, someone was a really big fan once but after some time the "magic" started disappearing or the writing/characters started going in a direction that was seen as wrong. So despite themselves they keep reading either hoping despite themselves that the magic that captured them will be back or simply due to attachment and nostalgia alone.

Also possibly -like one member said- because they still care and some of the biggest fans are the harshest critics.

Edited by - Shadolan on 16 Oct 2016 22:32:49
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CorellonsDevout
Master of Realmslore

USA
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Posted - 17 Oct 2016 :  00:03:43  Show Profile  Send CorellonsDevout an AOL message Send CorellonsDevout a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Personally, I feel the Drizzt novels have to end at some point, but I would be heartbroken if it ended badly, and from the spoiler, it sounds like an ending I can feel happy about, but I haven't actually read the book yet. I'm a sap and typical fangirl in the way I view some things. If this is indeed the last Drizzt book-and the last FR book--then I want it to end happily.

I am sad the FR novel line as a whole seems to be coming to an end.

Sweet water and light laughter

Edited by - CorellonsDevout on 17 Oct 2016 00:04:23
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sno4wy
Learned Scribe

USA
272 Posts

Posted - 17 Oct 2016 :  01:41:22  Show Profile Send sno4wy a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Lilianviaten

quote:
Originally posted by sno4wy

quote:
Originally posted by CorellonsDevout
Erm...in all honesty, that just made me SO happy. Omg! I am actually really excited now lol.



*shrug* I really liked Zaknafein at one point, but then over time I just realized that he never had much dimension to his character. I mean, what's there to his personality other than that he as the first representation in Bob's books of what most male drow in a Lolthite society felt like? Oh, and his love for his son, I suppose... but other than that, I felt he was quite bland. I could never understood why people were as into him as they were.

Bob's books have always been inconsistent, but those issues have gotten big and just world-breakingly glaring now. Bob explicitly said that Lolth didn't have Zak, which begged the question of, well, who did? Especially since Mielikki hadn't entered the picture yet and Bob refuses to acknowledge Eilistraee. But now, Lolth is the one to return Zak, so... in the end, she had him all along? Wut?


My head is one big spinning jumbled mess in regards to Bob's books. I'm really honestly glad that there will be no more Drizzt, hopefully not anyway, even if that doesn't bode well for the FR novel line.




That level of spite is absurd and completely illogical. You don't have to read any of Salvatore's books. If the novel line continues, you can read the authors you enjoy and not read Drizzt books. But you're so against the idea of that particular story, that you would rather not get to read any more books if the novel line ends than have Drizzt continue.

Thousands and thousands of people have expressed sadness that the Drizzt books are ending, and you're happy because they won't get to enjoy those novels anymore. That's insane. Doesn't it make more logical sense for you to be happy ignoring anything Salvatore writes and also being happy that those who do enjoy him get to read the books?

The same group of purists who whined endlessly about 4e are the ones who brought us 4e. WOTC got so tired of hearing them whine that they just (stupidly) destroyed everything that anyone complained about, all at once. But my goodness, I just don't understand it. Should we start a petition for WOTC to declare all Drizzt books non canon? Are the Cadderly books ok, or should those be non canon as well? At what point will you feel that Salvatore's influence has been sufficiently purged from Forgotten Realms?



You've apparently misunderstood my meaning. I'm hoping that's accidental instead of deliberate, but I'm honestly not sure given that you've made it about attacking me personally.

First, I don't know where you're getting the whole, "But you're so against the idea of that particular story, that you would rather not get to read any more books if the novel line ends than have Drizzt continue" idea from. The novel lines are ending. There is no doubt about that. My own preferences has no bearing or influence on the matter. None of ours do. I'm expressing how I feel in light of this, and especially about the context with regards to the Drizzt books.

"Thousands and thousands of people have expressed sadness that the Drizzt books are ending, and you're happy because they won't get to enjoy those novels anymore." Nope, this isn't my being happy that other people will be unhappy. Again, you're twisting my words so that you can personally attack me, and I have no idea why you're doing this. I'm happy the Drizzt books are ending. That doesn't equate into my being happy about other people being sad about it. Do you see the difference? As for, "Doesn't it make more logical sense for you to be happy ignoring anything Salvatore writes and also being happy that those who do enjoy him get to read the books?" yup, completely, and that's what I'd do, except the novel line is ending. Again, how I personally feel, or how anyone feels for that matter, won't change that. Don't attack me for stating the facts.

I'm not even going to bother addressing the rest of your response aimed at me, it's just too stupid to try to unravel. I've seen your posts Lilianviaten, and although I don't always agree with you, you're better than this. If you truly want to antagonize me over a bunch of misconstructions that exist solely in your head, that's your prerogative. However, I suggest that you get your emotions under control before blowing my post out of proportion.

Edited by - sno4wy on 17 Oct 2016 02:03:01
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Shadolan
Seeker

29 Posts

Posted - 17 Oct 2016 :  03:13:32  Show Profile Send Shadolan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
2 more likely not so spoilerish questions:

- Does the book address the reason why Arty became so long lived or is it pretty much confirmed that it was his sword that did so?

- Does Drizzt actually replace Twinkle with Lullaby(Tiago's sword) or does he just give that powerful blade to someone else?
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Seravin
Senior Scribe

Canada
782 Posts

Posted - 17 Oct 2016 :  18:37:04  Show Profile Send Seravin a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I thought it was already confirmed that Arty was long lived because his vampiric dagger stole the life of a Shade who imbued him with longevity.

My more spoilerish question:
What happens to Kimmuriel in the book?
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Shadolan
Seeker

29 Posts

Posted - 17 Oct 2016 :  21:43:01  Show Profile Send Shadolan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Seravin

I thought it was already confirmed that Arty was long lived because his vampiric dagger stole the life of a Shade who imbued him with longevity.

My more spoilerish question:
What happens to Kimmuriel in the book?



Tbh ever since the Neverwinter Saga it was said how Arty is living so long not due to the shade infusion but rather thanks to Charon's Claw giving him actual longevity/agelessness.

Though Jarlaxle during the Last Threshold wasn't sure as to why Arty still lives. In Maestro it was revealed that Charon's Claw wasn't destroyed and it may it actually be the sword after all but there is still a bit of ambiguity left.

So I wondered if some "twist" happened or if the sword is 100% confirmed. If the latter then Charon's Claw sure is badass. On top of its cutting power it can also make folks immune to age? Impressive.
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