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Irennan
Great Reader

Italy
2580 Posts

Posted - 15 Oct 2016 :  15:43:40  Show Profile Send Irennan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by sno4wy
But you know, since Drizzt apparently also sways Lolth to consider redemption in "Hero"



Wait, did he redeem Lolth or something? Oo

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Eilserus
Master of Realmslore

USA
1356 Posts

Posted - 15 Oct 2016 :  18:47:53  Show Profile Send Eilserus a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Irennan

quote:
Originally posted by sno4wy
But you know, since Drizzt apparently also sways Lolth to consider redemption in "Hero"



Wait, did he redeem Lolth or something? Oo



I'm not sure I'd go that far. I took her final actions of being a reflection of Drizzt's "worship". It's Lolth, the Lady of Chaos though. I wouldn't be surprised if it's her way of attempting to net him back into the fold.
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Irennan
Great Reader

Italy
2580 Posts

Posted - 15 Oct 2016 :  18:49:26  Show Profile Send Irennan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Would you feel like saying what happened?

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Eilserus
Master of Realmslore

USA
1356 Posts

Posted - 15 Oct 2016 :  18:57:49  Show Profile Send Eilserus a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by sno4wy

quote:
Originally posted by charger_ss24

quote:
Originally posted by sno4wy

Just gonna say that I'm glad that it's over. As sad as I am for the FR novel line, I think the long overdue end of the Drizzt series is a relief. I don't think I'd be reading anymore Drizzt books if Hero wasn't the last one, because it's really become an instance in which the horse has died, it's been beaten over and over with large sticks, it was resurrected, then died, then beaten with sticks again... my arms are getting tired.



I partially agree with you. For the last several books, I was reading for the other characters, Artemis Entreri, in particular. He had tremendous character growth.



I've been reading solely for Artemis for many books now. However, since post-Sundering, I wouldn't say what he's gone through is natural organic growths, but rather a series of forced and contrived changes to make him fall in line with the social-normative mold. I've always favored Artemis because, even though in many ways he's very vulnerable, he was a strong character. He didn't need to go down the path to become Drizzt 2.0 to be valid. The message that Bob leaves for what he's done with Artemis as a character is this: conform to societal expectations or else your existence is not valid.



An interesting take, I never considered conformity. I've always held the Entreri Drizzt relationship as almost like brothers who are complete opposites. My take was that Entreri isn't so much a completely different person (his old skills work at the end of the novel comes to mine), he's just capable of loving now. Very much the same man, just not completely emotionally closed off. I been waiting for those two to bury the hatchet for several years now and accept each other for who they are. And I'm rather pleased by it. My thoughts anyways.
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Eilserus
Master of Realmslore

USA
1356 Posts

Posted - 15 Oct 2016 :  19:02:14  Show Profile Send Eilserus a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by sno4wy

I mean honestly, I don't see how there could be any concern that it wouldn't be happily-ever-after for everyone. I'd love to believe that Bob is capable of something non-cliche, but he isn't. Sorry for the bluntness.



This I get. Part of me thinks Drizzt should "go down with the ship" fighting for what he believes in and still being rejected. A tragedy or some sorts would be fitting. Then again, hope for the better is a theme in RAS's writing.
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Eilserus
Master of Realmslore

USA
1356 Posts

Posted - 15 Oct 2016 :  19:06:24  Show Profile Send Eilserus a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by CorellonsDevout

quote:
Originally posted by tithas

quote:
Originally posted by Drizztsmanchild

quote:
Originally posted by tithas

quote:
Originally posted by CorellonsDevout

I feel the Drizzt books need to come to an end, too, I am just hoping for a happy ending, in part because it has been going on for so long. After all this time, I would hate for the end to leave a sour taste in my mouth.


I am not sure if Happy is the right word for the ending of Hero......


Fitting and deserving at least?


Kind of...if the books are done its a bad ending IMO. If not its epic.



I'm super worried now.



Depends. I'm a sucker for sappy emotional moments. This loads a lot of them towards the end. I think it's a good send off if this is it. And yes, it'll be freaken' epic if there's another novel. Honestly, I'd die for at least a short story if this is the last novel.
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Eilserus
Master of Realmslore

USA
1356 Posts

Posted - 15 Oct 2016 :  19:16:58  Show Profile Send Eilserus a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Irennan

Would you feel like saying what happened?



Not sure I should drop that huge of a bombshell given the novel isn't out yet. I can PM you if would like though.
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Irennan
Great Reader

Italy
2580 Posts

Posted - 15 Oct 2016 :  19:31:32  Show Profile Send Irennan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Eilserus

quote:
Originally posted by Irennan

Would you feel like saying what happened?



Not sure I should drop that huge of a bombshell given the novel isn't out yet. I can PM you if would like though.



Sure, PM me if you don't mind.

To all Facebook-using FR fans, you might be interested in checking out this page: https://www.facebook.com/groups/450517575051806/
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Shadolan
Seeker

29 Posts

Posted - 15 Oct 2016 :  19:53:08  Show Profile Send Shadolan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Eilserus

quote:
Originally posted by Irennan

Would you feel like saying what happened?



Not sure I should drop that huge of a bombshell given the novel isn't out yet. I can PM you if would like though.



Can you PM me too about what happened with Arty? Did he get a well deserved happy ending with the girl he grew to love?

I really hope Dahlia stopped obsessing with Drizzt though...

Edited by - Shadolan on 15 Oct 2016 19:53:50
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CorellonsDevout
Master of Realmslore

USA
1748 Posts

Posted - 15 Oct 2016 :  21:52:07  Show Profile  Send CorellonsDevout an AOL message Send CorellonsDevout a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Eilserus

quote:
Originally posted by sno4wy

I mean honestly, I don't see how there could be any concern that it wouldn't be happily-ever-after for everyone. I'd love to believe that Bob is capable of something non-cliche, but he isn't. Sorry for the bluntness.



This I get. Part of me thinks Drizzt should "go down with the ship" fighting for what he believes in and still being rejected. A tragedy or some sorts would be fitting. Then again, hope for the better is a theme in RAS's writing.



After this long, I don't want a tragedy lol

Sweet water and light laughter
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sno4wy
Learned Scribe

USA
272 Posts

Posted - 16 Oct 2016 :  01:50:08  Show Profile Send sno4wy a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Drizzt doesn't die. Artemis is painted as ending up with the girl he loves but honestly, the whole Dahlia/Artemis relationship is very toxic. Dahlia asserting Artemis is the only one she loves and the only one she's ever loved rubbed me the wrong way. What about Effron? Plus, she clearly loved Drizzt. It's just manipulative and dirty, but I guess that's in character for her. I do like that Dahlia is more complex than the other female characters in the Drizzt books, but I really hate all the pigeonholing in an effort to happily ever after it all.
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CorellonsDevout
Master of Realmslore

USA
1748 Posts

Posted - 16 Oct 2016 :  02:15:12  Show Profile  Send CorellonsDevout an AOL message Send CorellonsDevout a Private Message  Reply with Quote
@Sno4wy: have you read it?

Sweet water and light laughter
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Felix
Acolyte

Singapore
6 Posts

Posted - 16 Oct 2016 :  02:23:19  Show Profile Send Felix a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Eilserus

quote:
Originally posted by Irennan

Would you feel like saying what happened?



Not sure I should drop that huge of a bombshell given the novel isn't out yet. I can PM you if would like though.



Send me a PM as well.
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sno4wy
Learned Scribe

USA
272 Posts

Posted - 16 Oct 2016 :  02:55:15  Show Profile Send sno4wy a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by CorellonsDevout

@Sno4wy: have you read it?



Yes, I have the ARC as well.
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CorellonsDevout
Master of Realmslore

USA
1748 Posts

Posted - 16 Oct 2016 :  02:59:30  Show Profile  Send CorellonsDevout an AOL message Send CorellonsDevout a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by sno4wy

quote:
Originally posted by CorellonsDevout

@Sno4wy: have you read it?



Yes, I have the ARC as well.



Ah, I didn't realize. Thank you. Personally, I would have been deveststed if it hadn't been a happy ending, though I am a sap lol. But after journeying with these books for so long, in spite of the issues I have had with certain aspects, I would hope that after this long, it would be a happy ending.

Sweet water and light laughter

Edited by - CorellonsDevout on 16 Oct 2016 03:02:24
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sno4wy
Learned Scribe

USA
272 Posts

Posted - 16 Oct 2016 :  03:03:22  Show Profile Send sno4wy a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I totally understand where you're coming from. I think that's a very fair stance to take. I'm just bitter and jaded, lol. :P
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Shadolan
Seeker

29 Posts

Posted - 16 Oct 2016 :  04:25:21  Show Profile Send Shadolan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by sno4wy

Drizzt doesn't die. Artemis is painted as ending up with the girl he loves but honestly, the whole Dahlia/Artemis relationship is very toxic. Dahlia asserting Artemis is the only one she loves and the only one she's ever loved rubbed me the wrong way. What about Effron? Plus, she clearly loved Drizzt. It's just manipulative and dirty, but I guess that's in character for her. I do like that Dahlia is more complex than the other female characters in the Drizzt books, but I really hate all the pigeonholing in an effort to happily ever after it all.



Well, I think it would be far worse if Arty simply was left sad and pointlessly pining over a girl that keeps nagging Drizzt who already is in a relationship and finds it more annoying than anything. Kinda as if Wulfgar decided to keep Catti know how he will never let it go while being given a facepalmish look.

Dunno if Dahlia is the best Arty could get but at least she can find some common ground with him due to a somewhat similar backstory. Would a 100% good girl like Catti be better for him? I think such contrasting characters would be more likely to clash actually.

The thing about Dahlia is that it felt like she was being possessive towards both Drizzt and Arty while being in love with both but its good that this love triangle finally gets some sort of resolution. Too bad for her she couldn't have them both lol. Despite all my dislike towards Dahlia in all of this, I kinda feel some mercy towards the crazy chick despite myself, as RAS did make her go through some pretty awful stuff. Stuff that I do not ever see Catti going through.

Entreri of all people in RAS stories likely had the most messed up life with tons of crap happening to him in some way or another. Having him be unhappy and still living an empty life unable to find neither happiness nor purpose in life while Drizzt gets everything he wanted (and more) for being a good boy all along would sound as if the moral of the story was "Don't ever be anything less than good or you are screwed forever regardless of whether you try to become a better person or not".

Though not all characters(including the good guys) get happy endings in RAS books. Cadderly's fate was quite depressing as was Deudermon't. I feared how Arty would never know a break nor a happy ending tbh.

Thanks for clearing that up. :)

Edited by - Shadolan on 16 Oct 2016 04:59:00
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Drizztsmanchild
Learned Scribe

USA
216 Posts

Posted - 16 Oct 2016 :  05:13:02  Show Profile  Visit Drizztsmanchild's Homepage  Send Drizztsmanchild a Yahoo! Message Send Drizztsmanchild a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Eilserus

quote:
Originally posted by Irennan

Would you feel like saying what happened?



Not sure I should drop that huge of a bombshell given the novel isn't out yet. I can PM you if would like though.



I'd like a PM as well if it's no trouble. Thanks
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DandelionClock
Seeker

67 Posts

Posted - 16 Oct 2016 :  12:46:16  Show Profile Send DandelionClock a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Oh, me too - if it's no bother!!!! - I'd like to know, in particular, what happens to the temporary companions - Afafrenfere, Effron, Amber - since I never saw much of a danger the other's stories would not be resolved or end up wrapped up in two sentences.
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sno4wy
Learned Scribe

USA
272 Posts

Posted - 16 Oct 2016 :  15:13:42  Show Profile Send sno4wy a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Shadolan
Well, I think it would be far worse if Arty simply was left sad and pointlessly pining over a girl that keeps nagging Drizzt who already is in a relationship and finds it more annoying than anything. Kinda as if Wulfgar decided to keep Catti know how he will never let it go while being given a facepalmish look.

Dunno if Dahlia is the best Arty could get but at least she can find some common ground with him due to a somewhat similar backstory. Would a 100% good girl like Catti be better for him? I think such contrasting characters would be more likely to clash actually.


I understand what you're saying, and even agree to an extent, definitely regarding the part about Catti. However, I feel that our romantic involvements don't define us, and there are people out there that'd be perfectly happy without being in a relationship. Furthermore, relationships don't fix all of us, not to mention that the wrong kind of romantic relationship, like the one with Dahlia, could very well end up doing more damage in the end. I believe Artemis is one such person. Sure, he'd be hurt, and affected by the sadness for a good long while, but I think he'd be more or less ok on his own. I think a healthy friendship with someone who gets him rather than trying to bend him into something they see as ideal would do him a lot better than a relationship.

Tbh, I think it would've been better if Dahlia died. Despite what she claimed, I think the reality to her character would be that she'd still have been pining over Drizzt, and have a lot of trouble staying loyal to Artemis because she fundamentally doesn't know what she wants. Neither does Artemis, but he's a lot further down the road than Dahlia is. What I see happening to their relationship is like what is finally covered regarding what happened with Calihye -- after maybe a couple of years, Artemis will drift away from Dahlia because they're at very different stages of life. Nonetheless, that path would cause a lot more pain for Arte in the long run.


quote:
Originally posted by ShadolanEntreri of all people in RAS stories likely had the most messed up life with tons of crap happening to him in some way or another. Having him be unhappy and still living an empty life unable to find neither happiness nor purpose in life while Drizzt gets everything he wanted (and more) for being a good boy all along would sound as if the moral of the story was "Don't ever be anything less than good or you are screwed forever regardless of whether you try to become a better person or not".


Agreed. Entreri, I'd even argue, had it harder than Drizzt. Sure, Drizzt lived in a dystopian society, but he always had at least one shining beacon to guide him through. There was Zak, who loved him unconditionally, and then there was Gwen, always at his side, so much so that she shattered magical constraints that are supposed to be absolute. I personally find that pretty lame and one of the many traits that make Drizzt a Gary Stu, but whatever, it is what it is. Artemis, on the other hand, didn't have that, and stilled walked a very dark path. Was his world darker than Drizzt's? Maybe, maybe not, it's really hard to say. However, it's about the relative darkness, which is so much deeper when one does not have a guiding light.

I would argue that the way that Bob forced Artemis to walk the path of redemption does, in fact, drive home the moral that one can't expect to find happiness without conforming to societal expectations, of being good and the like. The thing is, many people are troubled or traumatized, and they can't do that. I'm not saying that it's ok for these people to go out and kill other people or commit crimes of other natures, but there needs to be the understanding that everyone needs to be able to cope their own way. I've always hated Drizzt for how invalidating he's always been towards Artemis. He's never bothered to get to know the man, only basing his judgments on his assumptions and surface observations, and in the end he's all like, "Yay Artemis has become what I'd always hoped!!" It's vapid and stupid. At least Jarlaxle, for all of his proclivities towards manipulating others, at least sincerely tried to figure out who Artemis is and what were the things driving and torturing him.

TL;DR version for that last paragraph: Not all people can be bent to follow Drizzt's path. If that's the definition of "redemption", as it seems to be what Bob's writing says, it's invalidating a whole bunch of people and, honestly, ruins Artemis and his journey by making it into a tired and overdone cliche.


quote:
Originally posted by Shadolan
Though not all characters(including the good guys) get happy endings in RAS books. Cadderly's fate was quite depressing as was Deudermon't. I feared how Arty would never know a break nor a happy ending tbh.


I suppose I have to give Bob some credit for Cadderly and Deudermont. I thought Cadderly's fate was ok, fitting for what he stood for, as was Deudermont's. I guess I've never felt either of them were really tragic, because Cadderly got elevated to demi-god level by being able to singlehandedly restrain a creature that attained ridiculous power levels. I guess each person's interpretation and takeaway is different. For me, if I were a character in a fantasy novel, I'd rather "live" on eternally ensuring that the goal I sacrificed everything for is forever kept. And Deudermont's sacrifice was elevated to be *the turning point* to which Luskan fell to squalor. Is it so bad to trade one's life to be immortalized in one's world's history? I don't think so, but again, everyone's mileage varies. I believe it's better to live a shorter but distinguished life than a long and insignificant one.
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sno4wy
Learned Scribe

USA
272 Posts

Posted - 16 Oct 2016 :  15:22:13  Show Profile Send sno4wy a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I'm going to drop the bombshell on the ending. I guess it's "huge" from the I can't believe he did that perspective. I don't think it was necessary, I mean Drizzt already got his happy ending, but I guess the golden boy has to have everything.

In other words...

Zaknafein comes back. He's fully back to life. The book ends with Yvonnel ushering him into Jarlaxle's office, Jarlaxle leaping over his desk and knocking all of his stuff flying to wrap Zaknafein in a big hug, as well as the assertion that Zaknafein is the only person Jarlaxle's ever trusted (*eyeroll at yet another questionable absolute, which seems to be a common theme in Hero*), Zaknafein saying he wants to see his son, and Jarlaxle saying that he'd be proud. THE END.

And this, lady and gents, is why it wouldn't have mattered even if Drizzt did die. If his dad who died, got zin-carla'd, then dissolved his body COMPLETELY in acid can come back alive, well, and 100% whole, then death fundamentally doesn't matter when it comes to RAS.

Edited by - sno4wy on 16 Oct 2016 16:02:02
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Irennan
Great Reader

Italy
2580 Posts

Posted - 16 Oct 2016 :  15:46:44  Show Profile Send Irennan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
What about that "redeeming Lolth" thingy?

To all Facebook-using FR fans, you might be interested in checking out this page: https://www.facebook.com/groups/450517575051806/

Edited by - Irennan on 16 Oct 2016 15:48:13
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Irennan
Great Reader

Italy
2580 Posts

Posted - 16 Oct 2016 :  15:52:35  Show Profile Send Irennan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Btw, you can hide spoilers with ["spoiler"]["/spoiler"] w/o commas.

To all Facebook-using FR fans, you might be interested in checking out this page: https://www.facebook.com/groups/450517575051806/
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sno4wy
Learned Scribe

USA
272 Posts

Posted - 16 Oct 2016 :  15:59:14  Show Profile Send sno4wy a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Thanks Irennan, I went back and implemented that. :D

In regards to your question, spoiler alert again.

Lolth tempts Drizzt with returning Zak to him, but Drizzt refutes her. Near the end, some of the other characters discuss how Drizzt seeks to redeem Lolth, and as one of them questions the feasibility of this course, we're answered by the unconditional return of Zak, whole and healthy.

Take from it what you will, but given how Bob explicitly feels about Eilistraee, I wouldn't be surprised if this is a last-ditch effort to negate her and everything she stands for.
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CorellonsDevout
Master of Realmslore

USA
1748 Posts

Posted - 16 Oct 2016 :  16:13:12  Show Profile  Send CorellonsDevout an AOL message Send CorellonsDevout a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by sno4wy

I'm going to drop the bombshell on the ending. I guess it's "huge" from the I can't believe he did that perspective. I don't think it was necessary, I mean Drizzt already got his happy ending, but I guess the golden boy has to have everything.

In other words...

Zaknafein comes back. He's fully back to life. The book ends with Yvonnel ushering him into Jarlaxle's office, Jarlaxle leaping over his desk and knocking all of his stuff flying to wrap Zaknafein in a big hug, as well as the assertion that Zaknafein is the only person Jarlaxle's ever trusted (*eyeroll at yet another questionable absolute, which seems to be a common theme in Hero*), Zaknafein saying he wants to see his son, and Jarlaxle saying that he'd be proud. THE END.

And this, lady and gents, is why it wouldn't have mattered even if Drizzt did die. If his dad who died, got zin-carla'd, then dissolved his body COMPLETELY in acid can come back alive, well, and 100% whole, then death fundamentally doesn't matter when it comes to RAS.




Erm...in all honesty, that just made me SO happy. Omg! I am actually really excited now lol. I asked Bob once if he was going to do this. Guess he did. That makes me happy.

Sweet water and light laughter

Edited by - CorellonsDevout on 16 Oct 2016 16:23:56
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