Candlekeep Forum
Candlekeep Forum
Home | Profile | Register | Active Topics | Active Polls | Members | Private Messages | Search | FAQ
Username:
Password:
Save Password
Forgot your Password?

 All Forums
 Forgotten Realms Products
 Forgotten Realms Novels
 The Devil You Know
 New Topic  New Poll New Poll
 Reply to Topic
 Printer Friendly
Previous Page | Next Page
Author Previous Topic Topic Next Topic
Page: of 3

Schreckstoff
Seeker

53 Posts

Posted - 08 Oct 2016 :  05:55:35  Show Profile Send Schreckstoff a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Gyor

Selune did, although various devils from various layers tried to tempt her.


that was for Alyona though, it appeared before Bryseis as well before.

Complete Drizzt Saga - Check
In love with Farideh's Saga - Check
Disappointed at Erevis' Saga's apparent end - Check
Go to Top of Page

Gyor
Master of Realmslore

1310 Posts

Posted - 08 Oct 2016 :  13:41:51  Show Profile Send Gyor a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I'm pretty sure Fari and Havi were invited too.
Go to Top of Page

Gyor
Master of Realmslore

1310 Posts

Posted - 08 Oct 2016 :  23:48:08  Show Profile Send Gyor a Private Message  Reply with Quote
One thing I didn't expect in the book was the trip to Abeir, which was really interesting, and cool.

I didn't realize that no gods, meant no weave, which meant magic limited to that which doesn't need the weave like Azuth's Staff, Gilgeams divine spark, Dawn Titans and they're Relics, innate magic like Dragonborn breath, and Caisys unique spellscar.

I think it would be a strange setting to explore more very different from its sister Toril.

In fact as strange as this sounds like I think Ashes of the Tyrant and The Devil You Know are likely the closest thing to a setting books as you'll get for 5e Old Empires and Abeir.

Edited by - Gyor on 08 Oct 2016 23:49:19
Go to Top of Page

Gyor
Master of Realmslore

1310 Posts

Posted - 09 Oct 2016 :  00:06:08  Show Profile Send Gyor a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I also liked all the flash backs to Enlil/Unthers past and to the original sisters past.

Its a very great end to the Saga, but there are enough hooks that if WotC actually gets a boss with a brain in they're head enough to bring back the novels, the Brimstone Angels could come back.

Actually speaking of plot hooks, this book is riddled with them, its makes one really want to explore the Old Empire regions, Ziggurasus (where did it go and where will Enlil pull it back from and does that mean the Mulhorandi Pantheon wants to pull back Hieropolis), Abeir, and fiendish politics more. I also like Cormyr's new Queen.

I will also say as great the novel was, and it was amazing you can tell it was condensed down, that it was meant to be several novels. Like one in Abeir questing for the staff, one exploring the Tymanther Unther War, one exploring the original Brimstone Angels past, ect..., but she still made an amazing novel, especially given the limitations she had.
Go to Top of Page

Lilianviaten
Senior Scribe

487 Posts

Posted - 09 Oct 2016 :  06:10:24  Show Profile Send Lilianviaten a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Gyor

Spoilers below.

I originally though Dumuzi was Enlil's incarnation, but he's just a Chosen, about a massively powerful one, at least Elminster's equal.

What Son of Victory is exactly is a mystery. Is he an Avatar, a Demigod, and Incarnation, an imposter who somehow stole part of Gilgeam's power?

My speculation is alittle bit of all of the above. I think the Son of Victory found Gilgeam's sputtering divine spark, which ended up in Abeir, and put it into his amulet, which lets him draw on both the spark and Gilgeam's memories, maybe even uses it to trap Gilgeam's soul.

His connect with the amulet gave him limited divine power, but upon entering Toril, his worshippers massively boosted his power, so I think he's closer to being an Avatar/Incarnation of Gilgeam then he had been and he grows more powerful still. But Nanna-Sin's spark would have push him the rest of the way.

But denied that Spark their could still be the Sparks of Inanna, Kurru, and other dead Untherite Gods to harvest, and more territory/worshippers to collect, so this isn't really over, the question is what happened to either bodies, and is their sparks powerful enough to give Gilgeam what he wants.

Is it still possible bring them back, perhaps in the way Gilgeam was?

As for Nanna-Sin new Immortal form, I can see him greating Undying Pacts to Warlocks.

And one wonders if Asmodeaus will take on some of Nanna-Sin's traits and if he can grant spells in Nanna Sin's name.

Also in question is the Plane of Ziggurtus, whereever it is, is still at stake.

Another thought is New Unther/Tymanther seems to be a mix of both, so outside of Unthlass and the two Dragonborn cities, the area could be very strange, and chaotic, some possible in Mulhorandi hands, but the ones who served the Genasi, so now that they're back in Toril do the Abeir Mulhorandi join with the Toril Mulhorandi and with possible Shadow Plane Mulhorandi?

And one wonders what else was brought back to Toril from Abeir, what strange things, like artifacts of the Dawn Titans.

Also I think that Caisys is basically an immortal Tiefling portal, with a shit load of progeny, so anyone who wants to move between Abeir and Toril can do so via Caisys. They're maybe other portals. Ironically he's what the Steel Sky Liberators had wanted all along.

I also like that the new Eyerines forms were explained and tied to what happened during the battle. But I'm wondering, are the Pradaxi (sorry for the mispelled word), just bigger, more powerful Eyerines of the new form, or are they closer to the old form, but with wings?

I'm glad Mot got promoted to Eyerine, I was expecting a Spinagin promotion, this is much bigger, but cooler. Mot, the very male Imp, got turned into a very female Eyerine, which makes one wonder how fiends experience gender and sex.

I'm glad Lorcan survived, and I love that his nasty sister ended up his pet Imp. Although I will note, that she retains her memories of her life as a Cambion and can get promoted now, not just in title, but into more powerful devil or succubus (maybe), forms.

So many interesting plotlines, characters, cosmic beings, political intrigue (including the reverbations of what was happening else where), I feel like I barely scratched the surface of this wonderful novel.







Good observations. I wouldn't agree with the assessment of Dumuzi's power though. I think Enlil poured all his power into him for a specific task, like we saw Helm do in the Shadowbane novel or like Lolth did with the Lady Penitent. I don't see him staying Elminster level for the long term.

I'm also confused because the Sword Coast Adventurer's Guide says the dragonborn are largely scattered after being pushed back by Returned Unther. But the ending we saw shows the complete opposite. So what's the deal?

With the way 5e has randomly brought back dozens of gods, I think the simplest explanation is the best. Gilgeam was reborn because people in Unther remembered him and cried out for him after being enslaved in Abeir. This worship was enough to bring Gilgeam back, but magic doesn't work the same on Abeir and there are no gods. So his return got massively screwed up, and he's not as powerful as he should be.
Go to Top of Page

Gyor
Master of Realmslore

1310 Posts

Posted - 09 Oct 2016 :  21:08:19  Show Profile Send Gyor a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I meant current reduced elmisters, not planar rift repairing, while battle villians and composing a sonet Elminister.

And no the SCAG makes it clear that pockets of Tymanther still standing on the coasts of the Inner Sea and the Ambaler, which is where its two mighty cities are, it even refers to those cities. Look for the small blurb on Tymanther. It even mentions the "Sea Monster" protectiong one of those cities.

Of course outside of Tymanthers remaining turf the Dragonborn are scattered, from refugees from Returned Abeir, scattered surving villagers who did not get transfered to Abeir from homesteads, possibly some Dragonborn who got pulled FROM Abeir along with the Utherites. I mean who knows what other weird stuff got pulled into Toril from Abeir.

What you say makes sense to me about Gilgeam. It might be best to keep it simple.

I while say its obvious Gilgeam started off relatively weak, and grow in power fast once in Toril, where he was able to draw power from worship and the weave, as well as taking Dahl's ritual book.

Edited by - Gyor on 09 Oct 2016 21:12:51
Go to Top of Page

sleyvas
Great Reader

USA
7433 Posts

Posted - 10 Oct 2016 :  03:42:36  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
so apparently I need to catch up on all the Farideh stuff, since it sounds like she's hitting the Untheric spot that I'm interested in.

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
Go to Top of Page

Gyor
Master of Realmslore

1310 Posts

Posted - 10 Oct 2016 :  21:04:49  Show Profile Send Gyor a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Yes, but especially Ashes of the Tyrant and the The Devil You Know, but the other books are good for giving context to the characters.
Go to Top of Page

CorellonsDevout
Great Reader

USA
2255 Posts

Posted - 11 Oct 2016 :  04:41:26  Show Profile  Send CorellonsDevout an AOL message Send CorellonsDevout a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I just finished it.

Sweet water and light laughter
Go to Top of Page

CorellonsDevout
Great Reader

USA
2255 Posts

Posted - 11 Oct 2016 :  04:54:27  Show Profile  Send CorellonsDevout an AOL message Send CorellonsDevout a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Here is my review *spoilers*

I was a bit worried about how this storyline would end, but it concluded better than I expected. All the characters I cared about survived. A part of me was kind of hoping aÖtriad between Dahl, Fari, and Lorcan would form, because I couldnít decide who I wanted her end up with. Dahl was better for her, as she said, but I like the ďdevilishĒ characters. Either way, I am glad Lorcan survived. I was kind of worried about what was going to happen, since he was in a precarious position. It ends with him starting a new path in life (thatís literally the last scene), and I am curious to see what happens, but I realize this is the end of the series. The characters I cared about survived, so I was happy about that.

The ending felt a bit rushed, as often to seems to be the case in fantasy novels (fantasy is my love, so donít get me wrong, I breathe the genre as much I breathe yaoi manga, but the endings are often rushed). There is all this build-up to the ultimate confrontation, and then that confrontation is a bit hurried. But it was still a good ending. It blew things up without blowing them up, if that makes any sense. I am glad things turned out all right. I actually kind of enjoyed the scene where Havi and Fari were in the Fugue Plane. That was interesting. I love things involving the gods, and I always feel better when there is an afterlife, though depending on who you are, that can be good or bad, in the Realms. I don't have siblings, but I liked the theme of sister-bond. Alyona and Biseraís story was tragic, but selfless in the end.

Fari kind of annoyed me in this book, in a way she hadn't before. As Mehen thought at one point, she was moving too slowly. Then again, she was dealing with a bunch of stuff at once that I can't even imagine, so I should cut her some slack. She just seemed very...within herself? I guess? I still like her, but she did bother me more than usual.

But that shows the power of Evans' writing. Her characters are flawed, making them believable. I would like to see more about the development between Enlil and the dragonborn. I'm glad for Kallan and Mehen (I would have liked an ending scene with them, but at least we know Mehen has a companion in him), and Duzumi really grew on me in this book. It was touching at the end to see Fari, after everything she'd been through, still nervous about Dahl's family. All in all, I enjoyed this book, as I have enjoyed all the Brimstone books. It was epic, with diverse characters and lots of conflict.

Sweet water and light laughter
Go to Top of Page

Schreckstoff
Seeker

53 Posts

Posted - 11 Oct 2016 :  14:18:02  Show Profile Send Schreckstoff a Private Message  Reply with Quote
How anyone could still ship Lorcan after all these books baffles me, it's not just that Dahl is better for her, their relationship was literally abusive before they became intimate already.

I liked that Fari for once took time to plan instead of making it up as she went.

Something more definite regarding Kallan and Mehen would have been nice, not sure if Verthingeturish Mehen ending is to my liking though. It's not like they changed their way and traditions that caused him to rebel in the first place.

Complete Drizzt Saga - Check
In love with Farideh's Saga - Check
Disappointed at Erevis' Saga's apparent end - Check
Go to Top of Page

CorellonsDevout
Great Reader

USA
2255 Posts

Posted - 11 Oct 2016 :  17:10:13  Show Profile  Send CorellonsDevout an AOL message Send CorellonsDevout a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I just had a thing for Lorcan. Would I want to meet him irl? Nooo lol, but I like "devilish" characters. It wasn't a healthy relationship, to be sure, but I got the impression Lorcan really wanted to try, in the end. Dahl is better for her, but I was rooting for both.

I would really have liked to see more between Kallan and Mehen.

I am also happy Zoonie survived. As a dog lover, I always worry about the canine companions of characters.

Sweet water and light laughter

Edited by - CorellonsDevout on 11 Oct 2016 17:19:35
Go to Top of Page

Schreckstoff
Seeker

53 Posts

Posted - 11 Oct 2016 :  17:38:57  Show Profile Send Schreckstoff a Private Message  Reply with Quote
He's no Faraun but yeah he's a likeable. Maybe because he's somewhat hapless for a devil surviving in the 9 hells.

Havilar never particularly grew on me so I don't really care for much on her side. Their story is the least resolved tbh. Do they stay with the Dragonborn, do they want to partake in their son's life, do they become mercenaries,... Even in the epilogue they were kind of an inconclusive afterthought.

Complete Drizzt Saga - Check
In love with Farideh's Saga - Check
Disappointed at Erevis' Saga's apparent end - Check

Edited by - Schreckstoff on 11 Oct 2016 17:41:03
Go to Top of Page

Eltheron
Senior Scribe

738 Posts

Posted - 13 Oct 2016 :  07:28:22  Show Profile Send Eltheron a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Just unlurking long enough to say I'm very much enjoying "Devil You Know" by Evans.

And that I'm sad it's the end of the series. :(

Semi-random question, though: how is "Phrenike" pronounced, and which from which region/language is that name associated? Just wondering, a very cool character.

"The very best possible post-fourteenth-century Realms lets down those who love the specific, detailed social, political and magical situation, with its thousands of characters, developed over forty years, and want to learn more about it; and those who'd be open to a new one with equal depth, which there just isn't time to re-produce; and those repelled, some past the point of no return, by the bad-taste-and-plausibility gap of things done to the world when its guardianship was less careful."
--Faraer
Go to Top of Page

Gyor
Master of Realmslore

1310 Posts

Posted - 13 Oct 2016 :  22:06:37  Show Profile Send Gyor a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I'm guessing infernal. I think it might be pronounced Frien-Ike, maybe.
Go to Top of Page

sleyvas
Great Reader

USA
7433 Posts

Posted - 14 Oct 2016 :  13:52:01  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Gyor

Yes, but especially Ashes of the Tyrant and the The Devil You Know, but the other books are good for giving context to the characters.



I had started her original book and got pulled into other things. As with many things, I've always heard good stuff about her work, but since it was 4e, I kind of wasn't that concerned. I've recently started buying up 4e novels to read on amazon (for instance, I didn't know there were more Lythari in the east books until recently). What are all of her books, so I can buy and read them all in order?

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
Go to Top of Page

CorellonsDevout
Great Reader

USA
2255 Posts

Posted - 14 Oct 2016 :  16:54:56  Show Profile  Send CorellonsDevout an AOL message Send CorellonsDevout a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Brimstone Angels
Brimstone Angels: Lesser Evils
The Adversary (which is part of the Sundering series)
Fire in the Blood
Ashes of the Tyrant
The Devil You Know

Sweet water and light laughter
Go to Top of Page

Quil
Acolyte

5 Posts

Posted - 15 Oct 2016 :  23:17:38  Show Profile Send Quil a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I loved the book, but I could've enjoyed it more if it had been two books, at least. I won't say that it felt rushed as such, but there were so many things that deserved more attention. Bryseis's and Alyona's backstory, the trip to Abeir, the final battle that was over before it barely started, the actual incarnation of the gods on the material plane, Tam could've gotten more than minor appearance ... yeah. All things considered, I think Evans did an amazing job with what she was allowed to write. Everything wrapped up very neatly. Almost, at least.

The only plotline I felt was just cut completely: what happened to Dahl's kickass grandmother?

I'm so relieved that Farideh ended up with Dahl. I like Lorcan as a character, I enjoy reading about him, but his relationship with Farideh was so abusive I'm not sure he even deserved the chance Farideh gave him in the end.

I would've loved to see more about the aftermath in Djerad Thymar, with Dumuzi, Mehen and Kallan. Mehen and Kallan especially. I'm still really glad that Mehen survived, at least. Extremely glad that they got some screentime as a couple, sort of. Must be the most screentime any same-sex couple has gotten in the Forgotten Realms novels?

One thing I never really understood was exactly how the ritual that gave Asmodeus his godhood worked. He basically absorbed Azuth, and then the ritual Bryseis performed did ... what? Strengthen him? Enabled him to keep Azuth imprisoned inside himself?

The execution of splitting Azuth and Asmodeus was really neat, though. Seeing some more of it would've been great, but still. Very neat. I was a bit worried that it'd end up feeling forced, but this felt like a good resolution.

Go to Top of Page

Gyor
Master of Realmslore

1310 Posts

Posted - 18 Oct 2016 :  16:29:05  Show Profile Send Gyor a Private Message  Reply with Quote
People are way too hard on Lorcan, no body in Lorcan's position would have done better.

Lorcan literally grew up in hell, brutalized, tramatized, beaten where everyone wanted to use him or kill him, where he never experienced a moment of love or compassion.

Then he finds himself trapped between the competing demands of cosmic beings, gods and god like beings, with enternal torment, oblivion, and possiblity worse. And on top of that he falls in love, an emotion he has no capacity to deal with, love its a alien thing to him which entered his system.

The end of the book WASN'T a second chance for Lorcan, it was a first chance for Lorcan and in a way his sister.

Anyone who villifies Lorcan needs to ask themselves in Lorcanís shoes would I have done better (hint the answer is a resounding no).

Dalh group up on a farm surrounded by people who loved him, Lorcan grew up in hell surrounded by people who abused, used, and hated him.

Edited by - Gyor on 18 Oct 2016 16:30:28
Go to Top of Page

CorellonsDevout
Great Reader

USA
2255 Posts

Posted - 18 Oct 2016 :  16:49:49  Show Profile  Send CorellonsDevout an AOL message Send CorellonsDevout a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I am a Lorcan fan, myself. He was probably my favorite character in that series.

Sweet water and light laughter
Go to Top of Page

Schreckstoff
Seeker

53 Posts

Posted - 18 Oct 2016 :  20:17:21  Show Profile Send Schreckstoff a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Gyor

People are way too hard on Lorcan, no body in Lorcan's position would have done better.

Lorcan literally grew up in hell, brutalized, tramatized, beaten where everyone wanted to use him or kill him, where he never experienced a moment of love or compassion.

Then he finds himself trapped between the competing demands of cosmic beings, gods and god like beings, with enternal torment, oblivion, and possiblity worse. And on top of that he falls in love, an emotion he has no capacity to deal with, love its a alien thing to him which entered his system.

The end of the book WASN'T a second chance for Lorcan, it was a first chance for Lorcan and in a way his sister.

Anyone who villifies Lorcan needs to ask themselves in Lorcanís shoes would I have done better (hint the answer is a resounding no).

Dalh group up on a farm surrounded by people who loved him, Lorcan grew up in hell surrounded by people who abused, used, and hated him.

None of that excuse his actions. Lorcan rarely complained about his lot in life and we really don't know how he grew up. Receiving no love is hardly traumatizing for someone mostly incapable of such.
It's not a comparison between him and Dahl, Lorcan is a terrible being possibly not of his own fault but still.

Complete Drizzt Saga - Check
In love with Farideh's Saga - Check
Disappointed at Erevis' Saga's apparent end - Check
Go to Top of Page

Quil
Acolyte

5 Posts

Posted - 22 Oct 2016 :  23:26:50  Show Profile Send Quil a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Gyor

People are way too hard on Lorcan, no body in Lorcan's position would have done better.

Lorcan literally grew up in hell, brutalized, tramatized, beaten where everyone wanted to use him or kill him, where he never experienced a moment of love or compassion.

Then he finds himself trapped between the competing demands of cosmic beings, gods and god like beings, with enternal torment, oblivion, and possiblity worse. And on top of that he falls in love, an emotion he has no capacity to deal with, love its a alien thing to him which entered his system.

The end of the book WASN'T a second chance for Lorcan, it was a first chance for Lorcan and in a way his sister.

Anyone who villifies Lorcan needs to ask themselves in Lorcanís shoes would I have done better (hint the answer is a resounding no).

Dalh group up on a farm surrounded by people who loved him, Lorcan grew up in hell surrounded by people who abused, used, and hated him.



Yeah. Lorcan is evil. That's kind of the point. He emotionally abuses Farideh every chance he gets throughout the entire series. It doesn't matter why.

A lot of the devils that are slaughtered in various FR books could've been mortal souls that have climbed the infernal hierarchy. The fact that a mortal might've been tricked or seduced into selling their soul or getting corrupted, and then twisted and tormented in afterlife, doesn't really make a whole lot of difference as to whether that horned devil needs to die. Because it's just evil.

Lorcan isn't as bad as a lot of devils, of course. But he's outright abusive against Farideh. There's nothing good for her with him. Perhaps in a century Lorcan will have grown into a decent person and proven himself to be Good. But now? He's evil.

Go to Top of Page

Gyor
Master of Realmslore

1310 Posts

Posted - 17 Nov 2016 :  17:38:59  Show Profile Send Gyor a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Schreckstoff

quote:
Originally posted by Gyor

People are way too hard on Lorcan, no body in Lorcan's position would have done better.

Lorcan literally grew up in hell, brutalized, tramatized, beaten where everyone wanted to use him or kill him, where he never experienced a moment of love or compassion.

Then he finds himself trapped between the competing demands of cosmic beings, gods and god like beings, with enternal torment, oblivion, and possiblity worse. And on top of that he falls in love, an emotion he has no capacity to deal with, love its a alien thing to him which entered his system.

The end of the book WASN'T a second chance for Lorcan, it was a first chance for Lorcan and in a way his sister.

Anyone who villifies Lorcan needs to ask themselves in Lorcanís shoes would I have done better (hint the answer is a resounding no).

Dalh group up on a farm surrounded by people who loved him, Lorcan grew up in hell surrounded by people who abused, used, and hated him.

None of that excuse his actions. Lorcan rarely complained about his lot in life and we really don't know how he grew up. Receiving no love is hardly traumatizing for someone mostly incapable of such.
It's not a comparison between him and Dahl, Lorcan is a terrible being possibly not of his own fault but still.



We do know that he grew up in hell and physically abused by his larger, stronger sisters.

Lorcan isn't evil, he's Lawful Neutral. And Lorcan was abit abusive, but not because he wanted to be, but because he was deseperate, he was in horrible situation.

Lorcan deserved a fair chance to be a person and that is what Farideah gave him.
Go to Top of Page

CorellonsDevout
Great Reader

USA
2255 Posts

Posted - 17 Nov 2016 :  17:47:26  Show Profile  Send CorellonsDevout an AOL message Send CorellonsDevout a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I agree.

Sweet water and light laughter
Go to Top of Page

CylverSaber
Learned Scribe

94 Posts

Posted - 20 Nov 2016 :  19:54:01  Show Profile  Visit CylverSaber's Homepage Send CylverSaber a Private Message  Reply with Quote
What's the deal with the succubi being on both sides of the devil/demon battle? First they were demons, then with 4e they became devils, and now they're what? Both?

Oh, and Lorcan was definitely evil. You can argue how and why and if it's his fault, but you don't deliberately infect someone you supposedly care for with a plague from Hell, and threaten to let someone's family be slaughtered by Shadovar unless they agree to never speak to the love of their life again (at the cost of their soul!) if you're just neutral.
Go to Top of Page
Page: of 3 Previous Topic Topic Next Topic  
Previous Page | Next Page
 New Topic  New Poll New Poll
 Reply to Topic
 Printer Friendly
Jump To:
Candlekeep Forum © 1999-2018 Candlekeep.com Go To Top Of Page
Snitz Forums 2000