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Originally posted by Markustay


I know Manshoon's student - the Shadowsilk {sp?} - was also a student of Elminster's, so the two go way back.

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Originally posted by The Masked Mage

It sounds cool. Thinks that's all there is to it.

I remember in one of the many confrontations between the two we've seen, El says something along the lines of he "tried to teach" Manshoon. I would not read into this that Manshoon studied under him, only that Elminster told him something to try to steer him, as is his way of doing things.

On the contrary, in the bios of Manshoon, including the one here from years ago, there is no mention of a student teacher relationship.

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Originally posted by The Masked Mage

Spellfire came out a LONG LONG time ago. If the name had some deep hidden meaning, I think it would have been revealed by now.

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You’ve always had a goddess—and your fellow Mystra slaves—to guide you and guard you and do it all for you.”
"Aye,” El agreed gently. “And one of them was you.”
"Pah! I pretended to serve, to get the magic I wanted!”
"Ye think she didn’t know that? Just what d’ye think a goddess is, anyhail?”
“A larger shark, a larger wolf, among all the rest of us. You’re a fool if you think otherwise.”

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Originally posted by KanzenAU

I've been reading Elminster Enraged, and there's a passage near the end:

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You’ve always had a goddess—and your fellow Mystra slaves—to guide you and guard you and do it all for you.”
"Aye,” El agreed gently. “And one of them was you.”
"Pah! I pretended to serve, to get the magic I wanted!”
"Ye think she didn’t know that? Just what d’ye think a goddess is, anyhail?”
“A larger shark, a larger wolf, among all the rest of us. You’re a fool if you think otherwise.”

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I haven't read any of the pre-Spellplague novels (yet), but could this imply they worked together for a time in service to Mystra before Manshoon showed his true colours? Or is it more implying Manshoon paid private lip service to Mystra...

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Originally posted by Thauramarth
There is at least one short story (I forget which one - it was in one of the earliest "Realms of..." collections) where Elminster manipulated politics in Zhentil Keep so as to put Manshoon in power.

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Originally posted by Wrigley

For Manshoon himself I find his history odd. He was just a fancy son of lord from Zhentil's keep and all of the sudden he become a mastermind creating Zhentarim and leading a cabal of mages. The turning point was his aquisition of spellbook from defeated wizard but spellbooks are not so good for learning magic by yourself. I am still pondering over supposed connection to Shoon legacy and that he is actualy a possesed body of one Shoon emperor who is able to use his progeny as vessels. Manshoon's rise to power started at the same time his father was killed so the transfer make sense. Also he started to be known very early in his life due to his use of clone spells and his own signature Stasis clone both high level spells.
Clone spells also makes sense if you knew that Shoon run out of progeny.

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Originally posted by sleyvas


Along this idea... what if there were a link between Shoon and Manshoon, and that somehow had SOMETHING to do with the cataclysmic failure of the stasis clones. Bears some pondering at least....

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Originally posted by Thauramarth

based on the lore that I'm aware of (essentially 1E and 2E), Manshoon and Elminster never teamed up to collaborate. There is at least one short story (I forget which one - it was in one of the earliest "Realms of..." collections) where Elminster manipulated politics in Zhentil Keep so as to put Manshoon in power.
[...]
Elminster would oppose Manshoon whenever he made moves to reduce or curtail magic overall, but on the whole let him continue to exist because of Manshoon's considerable net contribution to magic as a whole.

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Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

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Originally posted by sleyvas


Along this idea... what if there were a link between Shoon and Manshoon, and that somehow had SOMETHING to do with the cataclysmic failure of the stasis clones. Bears some pondering at least....

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Thinks I that's a tenuous connection to make... Because if that connect was the reason the clones all woke up at once, the question becomes why it didn't happen before.

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Originally posted by sleyvas

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Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

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Originally posted by sleyvas


Along this idea... what if there were a link between Shoon and Manshoon, and that somehow had SOMETHING to do with the cataclysmic failure of the stasis clones. Bears some pondering at least....

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Thinks I that's a tenuous connection to make... Because if that connect was the reason the clones all woke up at once, the question becomes why it didn't happen before.

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Possibly he was entrapped in a phylactery of sorts previously?

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Originally posted by Thauramarth

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Originally posted by KanzenAU

I've been reading Elminster Enraged, and there's a passage near the end:

quote:

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You’ve always had a goddess—and your fellow Mystra slaves—to guide you and guard you and do it all for you.”
"Aye,” El agreed gently. “And one of them was you.”
"Pah! I pretended to serve, to get the magic I wanted!”
"Ye think she didn’t know that? Just what d’ye think a goddess is, anyhail?”
“A larger shark, a larger wolf, among all the rest of us. You’re a fool if you think otherwise.”

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I haven't read any of the pre-Spellplague novels (yet), but could this imply they worked together for a time in service to Mystra before Manshoon showed his true colours? Or is it more implying Manshoon paid private lip service to Mystra...

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I have not read any post-Spell Plague novels, but based on the lore that I'm aware of (essentially 1E and 2E), Manshoon and Elminster never teamed up to collaborate. There is at least one short story (I forget which one - it was in one of the earliest "Realms of..." collections) where Elminster manipulated politics in Zhentil Keep so as to put Manshoon in power.

In general, though, the philosophical underpinning of Mystra (pre-Times of Troubles) is that she was Lawful Neutral in alignment, i.e., unbothered about whether magic was used for good or evil purposes, but only that magic flourished. The storylines' focus on the Chosen of Mystra acting as a superheroes league obscured the fact that, ultimately, the role of the Chosen was to ensure that magic ("the Weave") would be preserved and expanded. Elminster's comment should be interpreted in that fashion - Manshoon, while using magic for "evil", furthered the goals of Mystra by using magic, and developing new magics, and foster magic by tutoring other mages, and even beefing up the numbers of mages in the Zhentarim. Had he worked to, say, try to curtail magic, or harm the Weave, that would have been a different matter. I think every one of us must have thought at one time or the other, based on their respective levels and abilities, Elminster could squash Manshoon like a bug, so why doesn't he? The answer would be that Mystra was pleased with Manshoon's role in the development of magic, and therefore did not want him destroyed.

I think Elminster's and Manshoon's first interaction in official lore (in Spellfire) illustrates that purpose - Elminster fought off those who would try and secure Shandril Shessair's spellfire, as whomever did so would be able to severely curtail the role of magic-users and mages across the Realms, and, therefore, reduce Mystra's standing and stature. In the follow-on novel (Crown of Fire, Manshoon actively tried to take control of Shandril, and Elminster put an end to that quite promptly. Elminster would oppose Manshoon whenever he made moves to reduce or curtail magic overall, but on the whole let him continue to exist because of Manshoon's considerable net contribution to magic as a whole.

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Originally posted by KanzenAU

I've been reading Elminster Enraged, and there's a passage near the end:

quote:

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You’ve always had a goddess—and your fellow Mystra slaves—to guide you and guard you and do it all for you.”
"Aye,” El agreed gently. “And one of them was you.”
"Pah! I pretended to serve, to get the magic I wanted!”
"Ye think she didn’t know that? Just what d’ye think a goddess is, anyhail?”
“A larger shark, a larger wolf, among all the rest of us. You’re a fool if you think otherwise.”

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I haven't read any of the pre-Spellplague novels (yet), but could this imply they worked together for a time in service to Mystra before Manshoon showed his true colours? Or is it more implying Manshoon paid private lip service to Mystra...

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Originally posted by Lilianviaten

quote:

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Originally posted by KanzenAU

I've been reading Elminster Enraged, and there's a passage near the end:

quote:

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You’ve always had a goddess—and your fellow Mystra slaves—to guide you and guard you and do it all for you.”
"Aye,” El agreed gently. “And one of them was you.”
"Pah! I pretended to serve, to get the magic I wanted!”
"Ye think she didn’t know that? Just what d’ye think a goddess is, anyhail?”
“A larger shark, a larger wolf, among all the rest of us. You’re a fool if you think otherwise.”

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I haven't read any of the pre-Spellplague novels (yet), but could this imply they worked together for a time in service to Mystra before Manshoon showed his true colours? Or is it more implying Manshoon paid private lip service to Mystra...

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Indeed, Manshoon was completely right in that exchange. FR gods have always been portrayed just like archmages. They are super powerful humans (or other creatures) with all the frailties common to mortals: pettiness, bad tempers, jealousy, short sightedness, impulsiveness, etc.

Mystra's a better example than most, since Midnight was just a mediocre mage who got extremely lucky. She's not worthy of Elminster's worship, as he was actually a more qualified candidate for the job. Larloch has a better understanding of magic than Midnight ever did, yet the story makes him out as unworthy to be the god of magic.

And I won't even get started on Cyric being the god of lies, strife, murder, and even intrigue at one point!! There are tons of novel characters more clever than Cyric, yet he somehow bumbled his way into being a god. He's not worthy of any worship.

From what we've seen, I think Manshoon's view is the only realistic one. It makes perfect sense that people in the Realms worship gods in exchange for protection, preferential treatment, or even superpowers and immortality in the most extreme cases. But to worship them out of reverence for how perfect they are is just silliness.

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Originally posted by Lilianviaten

I think Larloch was portrayed as a full fledged demigod in The Herald. He single handedly crippled the collective might of the Shadovar. There was no fight or back and forth. He just backhanded them all at once, leaving dozens of archmages crippled, dead, or mentally broken. Granted, they were minus Brennus, Rivalen, and Hadrhune, who were all dead by then. But still.

In The Godborn, which takes place very shortly before The Herald, Telamont faces his son Rivalen (who is now a demigod). He thinks to himself that he can certainly hurt Rivalen, but likely can't kill him. Yet in the Herald, Telamont admits to Shar that he's afraid of Larloch. And we don't ever see Telamont afraid.

For crying out loud, Telamont gathered 5 other Shadovar archmages and imprisoned Mephistopheles. But he tells Shar that he may not be able to defeat Larloch, even with all the wizardly might of his empire. He had to drain every magic item in his throne room and absorb the power just to think he could stand against Larloch. So that tells me Larloch is indeed a demigod.

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Originally posted by jordanz

[quote]Originally posted by Lilianviaten

I think Larloch was portrayed as a full fledged demigod in The Herald. He single handedly crippled the collective might of the Shadovar. There was no fight or back and forth. He just backhanded them all at once, leaving dozens of archmages crippled, dead, or mentally broken. Granted, they were minus Brennus, Rivalen, and Hadrhune, who were all dead by then. But still.

In The Godborn, which takes place very shortly before The Herald, Telamont faces his son Rivalen (who is now a demigod). He thinks to himself that he can certainly hurt Rivalen, but likely can't kill him. Yet in the Herald, Telamont admits to Shar that he's afraid of Larloch. And we don't ever see Telamont afraid.

For crying out loud, Telamont gathered 5 other Shadovar archmages and imprisoned Mephistopheles. But he tells Shar that he may not be able to defeat Larloch, even with all the wizardly might of his empire. He had to drain every magic item in his throne room and absorb the power just to think he could stand against Larloch. So that tells me Larloch is indeed a demigod.

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Originally posted by Markustay

Well, even Mystra's chosen tip-toed around Larloch, and Chosen ARE demi-gods (what was that nifty 4e parlance for that divine 'tier'?)*

And there is the theory that he is an ex-Chosen (perhaps of Mystryl), so who knows what sort of status that might mean.

On the other hand, Undead can't BE deities... but a couple of them have already broken that rule.


*EDIT: Exarch, wasn't it?

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Originally posted by jordanz

quote:

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Originally posted by jordanz

[quote]Originally posted by Lilianviaten

I think Larloch was portrayed as a full fledged demigod in The Herald. He single handedly crippled the collective might of the Shadovar. There was no fight or back and forth. He just backhanded them all at once, leaving dozens of archmages crippled, dead, or mentally broken. Granted, they were minus Brennus, Rivalen, and Hadrhune, who were all dead by then. But still.

In The Godborn, which takes place very shortly before The Herald, Telamont faces his son Rivalen (who is now a demigod). He thinks to himself that he can certainly hurt Rivalen, but likely can't kill him. Yet in the Herald, Telamont admits to Shar that he's afraid of Larloch. And we don't ever see Telamont afraid.

For crying out loud, Telamont gathered 5 other Shadovar archmages and imprisoned Mephistopheles. But he tells Shar that he may not be able to defeat Larloch, even with all the wizardly might of his empire. He had to drain every magic item in his throne room and absorb the power just to think he could stand against Larloch. So that tells me Larloch is indeed a demigod.

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Well my point is that it is debatable. Telamont and co. imprisoned Mestiopheles off his home turf and with that stolen divine spark. Demons are vulnerable that way but authentic DemiGods are not. Sure in terms of power some of these guys approach demigods, but there is something significant lacking (divine spark?).... So while there is concern on an arch-mages part when facing Larloch, we don't really see that same level of concerned expressed by a Demigod. Rivalen did not fear his Dad after he ascended

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