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jordanz
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Posted - 18 Sep 2016 :  00:00:52  Show Profile  Visit jordanz's Homepage Send jordanz a Private Message  Reply with Quote  Delete Topic
Was this ever documented anywhere? If so what were the circumstances leading up to it.

Markustay
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Posted - 18 Sep 2016 :  07:54:03  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I could have sworn I read somewhere that Manshoon was a student of his. I could be mistaken, though.

I know Manshoon's student - the Shadowsilk {sp?} - was also a student of Elminster's, so the two go way back.

I may be getting him confused with that fallen Chosen, whats-his-face.*



*Cult of the Dragon founder. Had that book for years, but never truly read it.

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Edited by - Markustay on 18 Sep 2016 07:55:28
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sfdragon
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Posted - 18 Sep 2016 :  08:46:24  Show Profile Send sfdragon a Private Message  Reply with Quote
sammaster the mad....

why is being a wizard like being a drow? both are likely to find a dagger in the back from a rival or one looking to further his own goals, fame and power


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Wrigley
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Posted - 18 Sep 2016 :  11:09:14  Show Profile  Visit Wrigley's Homepage Send Wrigley a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Sammaster was a student of El but as far a I know Manshoon was not. He is said to learn magic from spellbook he "found" after killing it's former owner (mage). Those circumstances are really vague as most of his early life so they could have met with Elminster but nobody knows. He is later atributed to being secretly a chosen of Mystra and if that is true than they definitely met before.
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Wooly Rupert
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Posted - 18 Sep 2016 :  13:45:27  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay


I know Manshoon's student - the Shadowsilk {sp?} - was also a student of Elminster's, so the two go way back.




The Shadowsil, Symgharyl Maruel. I've never understood the name "the Shadowsil"

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Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 18 Sep 2016 13:46:06
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The Masked Mage
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Posted - 18 Sep 2016 :  15:36:12  Show Profile  Send The Masked Mage an AOL message  Click to see The Masked Mage's MSN Messenger address Send The Masked Mage a Private Message  Reply with Quote
It sounds cool. Thinks that's all there is to it.

I remember in one of the many confrontations between the two we've seen, El says something along the lines of he "tried to teach" Manshoon. I would not read into this that Manshoon studied under him, only that Elminster told him something to try to steer him, as is his way of doing things.

On the contrary, in the bios of Manshoon, including the one here from years ago, there is no mention of a student teacher relationship.
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Arivia
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Posted - 18 Sep 2016 :  19:46:50  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I woke up and this thread really confused me before I had a cup of tea and was fully awake. Since when did Manshoon tutor the Srinshee, I thought. That would make him really old! :D

Also my guess on the Shadowsil is that it's likely a name with one of Ed's usual favourite hidden meanings, likely hinted at in the root of whatever Sil means.
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The Masked Mage
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Posted - 18 Sep 2016 :  21:52:08  Show Profile  Send The Masked Mage an AOL message  Click to see The Masked Mage's MSN Messenger address Send The Masked Mage a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Spellfire came out a LONG LONG time ago. If the name had some deep hidden meaning, I think it would have been revealed by now.
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Markustay
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Posted - 18 Sep 2016 :  23:08:53  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I once asked Ed about her, and he said something along the lines, "her full story is yet to be told".

Of course, he also told me that about Alusair. {sigh}

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Wooly Rupert
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Posted - 19 Sep 2016 :  03:04:01  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by The Masked Mage

It sounds cool. Thinks that's all there is to it.

I remember in one of the many confrontations between the two we've seen, El says something along the lines of he "tried to teach" Manshoon. I would not read into this that Manshoon studied under him, only that Elminster told him something to try to steer him, as is his way of doing things.

On the contrary, in the bios of Manshoon, including the one here from years ago, there is no mention of a student teacher relationship.



El could have been subtly steering him, or it could have been teaching him whilst in a disguise.

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Wooly Rupert
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Posted - 19 Sep 2016 :  03:07:24  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by The Masked Mage

Spellfire came out a LONG LONG time ago. If the name had some deep hidden meaning, I think it would have been revealed by now.



Maybe, maybe not... About 2 or 3 years ago, I asked Ed about an NPC that saw nothing more than 1 or 2 lines of text in a 1990's product. He said the NPC was still under an NDA, but we should get more info in May.

I'm still waiting on that one.

(Just to be clear, not blaming Ed for that!)

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Wrigley
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Posted - 19 Sep 2016 :  09:17:13  Show Profile  Visit Wrigley's Homepage Send Wrigley a Private Message  Reply with Quote
For Manshoon himself I find his history odd. He was just a fancy son of lord from Zhentil's keep and all of the sudden he become a mastermind creating Zhentarim and leading a cabal of mages. The turning point was his aquisition of spellbook from defeated wizard but spellbooks are not so good for learning magic by yourself. I am still pondering over supposed connection to Shoon legacy and that he is actualy a possesed body of one Shoon emperor who is able to use his progeny as vessels. Manshoon's rise to power started at the same time his father was killed so the transfer make sense. Also he started to be known very early in his life due to his use of clone spells and his own signature Stasis clone both high level spells.
Clone spells also makes sense if you knew that Shoon run out of progeny.
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Markustay
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Posted - 19 Sep 2016 :  21:33:53  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Well, if we think he is a 'lost Shoon heir' or some-such (which I do), then maybe we need turn no further than Star Wars for inspiration: Ths 'Shoon line' is like the Skywalker line - they are naturally powerful in 'the force' (magic).

Theres quite a bit of evidence in published canon that magical power is hereditary.

So, like getting 'handed your father's light saber', finding that Magic Book could have unlocked/triggered something in him internally. It would be even cooler if that book was actually written by a Shoon in the first place.

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KanzenAU
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Posted - 22 Sep 2016 :  09:27:52  Show Profile Send KanzenAU a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I've been reading Elminster Enraged, and there's a passage near the end:

quote:
You’ve always had a goddess—and your fellow Mystra slaves—to guide you and guard you and do it all for you.”
"Aye,” El agreed gently. “And one of them was you.”
"Pah! I pretended to serve, to get the magic I wanted!”
"Ye think she didn’t know that? Just what d’ye think a goddess is, anyhail?”
“A larger shark, a larger wolf, among all the rest of us. You’re a fool if you think otherwise.”


I haven't read any of the pre-Spellplague novels (yet), but could this imply they worked together for a time in service to Mystra before Manshoon showed his true colours? Or is it more implying Manshoon paid private lip service to Mystra...

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Thauramarth
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Posted - 22 Sep 2016 :  10:29:08  Show Profile Send Thauramarth a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by KanzenAU

I've been reading Elminster Enraged, and there's a passage near the end:

quote:
You’ve always had a goddess—and your fellow Mystra slaves—to guide you and guard you and do it all for you.”
"Aye,” El agreed gently. “And one of them was you.”
"Pah! I pretended to serve, to get the magic I wanted!”
"Ye think she didn’t know that? Just what d’ye think a goddess is, anyhail?”
“A larger shark, a larger wolf, among all the rest of us. You’re a fool if you think otherwise.”


I haven't read any of the pre-Spellplague novels (yet), but could this imply they worked together for a time in service to Mystra before Manshoon showed his true colours? Or is it more implying Manshoon paid private lip service to Mystra...

I have not read any post-Spell Plague novels, but based on the lore that I'm aware of (essentially 1E and 2E), Manshoon and Elminster never teamed up to collaborate. There is at least one short story (I forget which one - it was in one of the earliest "Realms of..." collections) where Elminster manipulated politics in Zhentil Keep so as to put Manshoon in power.

In general, though, the philosophical underpinning of Mystra (pre-Times of Troubles) is that she was Lawful Neutral in alignment, i.e., unbothered about whether magic was used for good or evil purposes, but only that magic flourished. The storylines' focus on the Chosen of Mystra acting as a superheroes league obscured the fact that, ultimately, the role of the Chosen was to ensure that magic ("the Weave") would be preserved and expanded. Elminster's comment should be interpreted in that fashion - Manshoon, while using magic for "evil", furthered the goals of Mystra by using magic, and developing new magics, and foster magic by tutoring other mages, and even beefing up the numbers of mages in the Zhentarim. Had he worked to, say, try to curtail magic, or harm the Weave, that would have been a different matter. I think every one of us must have thought at one time or the other, based on their respective levels and abilities, Elminster could squash Manshoon like a bug, so why doesn't he? The answer would be that Mystra was pleased with Manshoon's role in the development of magic, and therefore did not want him destroyed.

I think Elminster's and Manshoon's first interaction in official lore (in Spellfire) illustrates that purpose - Elminster fought off those who would try and secure Shandril Shessair's spellfire, as whomever did so would be able to severely curtail the role of magic-users and mages across the Realms, and, therefore, reduce Mystra's standing and stature. In the follow-on novel (Crown of Fire, Manshoon actively tried to take control of Shandril, and Elminster put an end to that quite promptly. Elminster would oppose Manshoon whenever he made moves to reduce or curtail magic overall, but on the whole let him continue to exist because of Manshoon's considerable net contribution to magic as a whole.

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Wrigley
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Posted - 22 Sep 2016 :  14:04:51  Show Profile  Visit Wrigley's Homepage Send Wrigley a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Thauramarth
There is at least one short story (I forget which one - it was in one of the earliest "Realms of..." collections) where Elminster manipulated politics in Zhentil Keep so as to put Manshoon in power.



When I think about it now I believe Elminster did my brother's homeworks too... he is everywhere :-)

And as to skywalker theory - it could have given him power but not knowledge and wisdom to do that kind of stuff.
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sleyvas
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Posted - 22 Sep 2016 :  14:09:31  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Wrigley

For Manshoon himself I find his history odd. He was just a fancy son of lord from Zhentil's keep and all of the sudden he become a mastermind creating Zhentarim and leading a cabal of mages. The turning point was his aquisition of spellbook from defeated wizard but spellbooks are not so good for learning magic by yourself. I am still pondering over supposed connection to Shoon legacy and that he is actualy a possesed body of one Shoon emperor who is able to use his progeny as vessels. Manshoon's rise to power started at the same time his father was killed so the transfer make sense. Also he started to be known very early in his life due to his use of clone spells and his own signature Stasis clone both high level spells.
Clone spells also makes sense if you knew that Shoon run out of progeny.




HMMMMMMMM....... Methinks this be an interesting idea. Maybe a little Tropey, so not sure if I'd want to do it, but....

Along this idea... what if there were a link between Shoon and Manshoon, and that somehow had SOMETHING to do with the cataclysmic failure of the stasis clones. Bears some pondering at least....

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Wooly Rupert
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Posted - 22 Sep 2016 :  15:03:52  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas


Along this idea... what if there were a link between Shoon and Manshoon, and that somehow had SOMETHING to do with the cataclysmic failure of the stasis clones. Bears some pondering at least....



Thinks I that's a tenuous connection to make... Because if that connect was the reason the clones all woke up at once, the question becomes why it didn't happen before.

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TBeholder
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Posted - 22 Sep 2016 :  22:53:21  Show Profile Send TBeholder a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Thauramarth

based on the lore that I'm aware of (essentially 1E and 2E), Manshoon and Elminster never teamed up to collaborate. There is at least one short story (I forget which one - it was in one of the earliest "Realms of..." collections) where Elminster manipulated politics in Zhentil Keep so as to put Manshoon in power.
[...]
Elminster would oppose Manshoon whenever he made moves to reduce or curtail magic overall, but on the whole let him continue to exist because of Manshoon's considerable net contribution to magic as a whole.

Much like in Thay - Alassra can cull Red Wizards as she sees fit, but not wipe them out.
Zhentil Keep also had the difference - letting Manshoon move on top was the best available counterbalance to the Banites. Which makes him not only "better than nothing", but directly useful: Bane by his nature is an unfriendly player and tried to usurp Mystra's power.

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sleyvas
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Posted - 23 Sep 2016 :  00:05:13  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas


Along this idea... what if there were a link between Shoon and Manshoon, and that somehow had SOMETHING to do with the cataclysmic failure of the stasis clones. Bears some pondering at least....



Thinks I that's a tenuous connection to make... Because if that connect was the reason the clones all woke up at once, the question becomes why it didn't happen before.



Possibly he was entrapped in a phylactery of sorts previously?

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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Wooly Rupert
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Posted - 23 Sep 2016 :  02:52:26  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas

quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas


Along this idea... what if there were a link between Shoon and Manshoon, and that somehow had SOMETHING to do with the cataclysmic failure of the stasis clones. Bears some pondering at least....



Thinks I that's a tenuous connection to make... Because if that connect was the reason the clones all woke up at once, the question becomes why it didn't happen before.



Possibly he was entrapped in a phylactery of sorts previously?



Maybe. It'd be tricky to execute without hitting what I call the Madcoil Effect: a backstory so contrived and ridiculous that it overwhelms an otherwise cool concept.

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Lilianviaten
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Posted - 23 Sep 2016 :  05:21:53  Show Profile Send Lilianviaten a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Thauramarth

quote:
Originally posted by KanzenAU

I've been reading Elminster Enraged, and there's a passage near the end:

quote:
You’ve always had a goddess—and your fellow Mystra slaves—to guide you and guard you and do it all for you.”
"Aye,” El agreed gently. “And one of them was you.”
"Pah! I pretended to serve, to get the magic I wanted!”
"Ye think she didn’t know that? Just what d’ye think a goddess is, anyhail?”
“A larger shark, a larger wolf, among all the rest of us. You’re a fool if you think otherwise.”


I haven't read any of the pre-Spellplague novels (yet), but could this imply they worked together for a time in service to Mystra before Manshoon showed his true colours? Or is it more implying Manshoon paid private lip service to Mystra...

I have not read any post-Spell Plague novels, but based on the lore that I'm aware of (essentially 1E and 2E), Manshoon and Elminster never teamed up to collaborate. There is at least one short story (I forget which one - it was in one of the earliest "Realms of..." collections) where Elminster manipulated politics in Zhentil Keep so as to put Manshoon in power.

In general, though, the philosophical underpinning of Mystra (pre-Times of Troubles) is that she was Lawful Neutral in alignment, i.e., unbothered about whether magic was used for good or evil purposes, but only that magic flourished. The storylines' focus on the Chosen of Mystra acting as a superheroes league obscured the fact that, ultimately, the role of the Chosen was to ensure that magic ("the Weave") would be preserved and expanded. Elminster's comment should be interpreted in that fashion - Manshoon, while using magic for "evil", furthered the goals of Mystra by using magic, and developing new magics, and foster magic by tutoring other mages, and even beefing up the numbers of mages in the Zhentarim. Had he worked to, say, try to curtail magic, or harm the Weave, that would have been a different matter. I think every one of us must have thought at one time or the other, based on their respective levels and abilities, Elminster could squash Manshoon like a bug, so why doesn't he? The answer would be that Mystra was pleased with Manshoon's role in the development of magic, and therefore did not want him destroyed.

I think Elminster's and Manshoon's first interaction in official lore (in Spellfire) illustrates that purpose - Elminster fought off those who would try and secure Shandril Shessair's spellfire, as whomever did so would be able to severely curtail the role of magic-users and mages across the Realms, and, therefore, reduce Mystra's standing and stature. In the follow-on novel (Crown of Fire, Manshoon actively tried to take control of Shandril, and Elminster put an end to that quite promptly. Elminster would oppose Manshoon whenever he made moves to reduce or curtail magic overall, but on the whole let him continue to exist because of Manshoon's considerable net contribution to magic as a whole.




That in turn raises the question of why the Chosen didn't do more (after their initial stint in Return of the Archwizards) to defeat the Shadovar. Telamont and his sons followed Shar, who by her very nature acts in darkness and keep secrets. The Shadovar spent years on treasure hunting expeditions, hoarding all the magic items and scrolls they could from Ancient Netheril. And of course, they made their final obvious bid to take over the Weave itself. If Larloch hadn't single handedly wiped out all the mightiest Shadovar, what exactly were the Chosen going to do?
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Lilianviaten
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Posted - 23 Sep 2016 :  05:34:35  Show Profile Send Lilianviaten a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by KanzenAU

I've been reading Elminster Enraged, and there's a passage near the end:

quote:
You’ve always had a goddess—and your fellow Mystra slaves—to guide you and guard you and do it all for you.”
"Aye,” El agreed gently. “And one of them was you.”
"Pah! I pretended to serve, to get the magic I wanted!”
"Ye think she didn’t know that? Just what d’ye think a goddess is, anyhail?”
“A larger shark, a larger wolf, among all the rest of us. You’re a fool if you think otherwise.”


I haven't read any of the pre-Spellplague novels (yet), but could this imply they worked together for a time in service to Mystra before Manshoon showed his true colours? Or is it more implying Manshoon paid private lip service to Mystra...




Indeed, Manshoon was completely right in that exchange. FR gods have always been portrayed just like archmages. They are super powerful humans (or other creatures) with all the frailties common to mortals: pettiness, bad tempers, jealousy, short sightedness, impulsiveness, etc.

Mystra's a better example than most, since Midnight was just a mediocre mage who got extremely lucky. She's not worthy of Elminster's worship, as he was actually a more qualified candidate for the job. Larloch has a better understanding of magic than Midnight ever did, yet the story makes him out as unworthy to be the god of magic.

And I won't even get started on Cyric being the god of lies, strife, murder, and even intrigue at one point!! There are tons of novel characters more clever than Cyric, yet he somehow bumbled his way into being a god. He's not worthy of any worship.

From what we've seen, I think Manshoon's view is the only realistic one. It makes perfect sense that people in the Realms worship gods in exchange for protection, preferential treatment, or even superpowers and immortality in the most extreme cases. But to worship them out of reverence for how perfect they are is just silliness.
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jordanz
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Posted - 23 Sep 2016 :  06:02:53  Show Profile  Visit jordanz's Homepage Send jordanz a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Lilianviaten

quote:
Originally posted by KanzenAU

I've been reading Elminster Enraged, and there's a passage near the end:

quote:
You’ve always had a goddess—and your fellow Mystra slaves—to guide you and guard you and do it all for you.”
"Aye,” El agreed gently. “And one of them was you.”
"Pah! I pretended to serve, to get the magic I wanted!”
"Ye think she didn’t know that? Just what d’ye think a goddess is, anyhail?”
“A larger shark, a larger wolf, among all the rest of us. You’re a fool if you think otherwise.”


I haven't read any of the pre-Spellplague novels (yet), but could this imply they worked together for a time in service to Mystra before Manshoon showed his true colours? Or is it more implying Manshoon paid private lip service to Mystra...




Indeed, Manshoon was completely right in that exchange. FR gods have always been portrayed just like archmages. They are super powerful humans (or other creatures) with all the frailties common to mortals: pettiness, bad tempers, jealousy, short sightedness, impulsiveness, etc.

Mystra's a better example than most, since Midnight was just a mediocre mage who got extremely lucky. She's not worthy of Elminster's worship, as he was actually a more qualified candidate for the job. Larloch has a better understanding of magic than Midnight ever did, yet the story makes him out as unworthy to be the god of magic.

And I won't even get started on Cyric being the god of lies, strife, murder, and even intrigue at one point!! There are tons of novel characters more clever than Cyric, yet he somehow bumbled his way into being a god. He's not worthy of any worship.

From what we've seen, I think Manshoon's view is the only realistic one. It makes perfect sense that people in the Realms worship gods in exchange for protection, preferential treatment, or even superpowers and immortality in the most extreme cases. But to worship them out of reverence for how perfect they are is just silliness.



I believe Karsus felt the same. Not sure if I agree otherwise Larloch should be considered a Demi god right now just based on power....But he is not and would likely be at disadvantage if he were to battle a Demigod of magic. But maybe am wrong about that...
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Lilianviaten
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Posted - 23 Sep 2016 :  19:02:43  Show Profile Send Lilianviaten a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I think Larloch was portrayed as a full fledged demigod in The Herald. He single handedly crippled the collective might of the Shadovar. There was no fight or back and forth. He just backhanded them all at once, leaving dozens of archmages crippled, dead, or mentally broken. Granted, they were minus Brennus, Rivalen, and Hadrhune, who were all dead by then. But still.

In The Godborn, which takes place very shortly before The Herald, Telamont faces his son Rivalen (who is now a demigod). He thinks to himself that he can certainly hurt Rivalen, but likely can't kill him. Yet in the Herald, Telamont admits to Shar that he's afraid of Larloch. And we don't ever see Telamont afraid.

For crying out loud, Telamont gathered 5 other Shadovar archmages and imprisoned Mephistopheles. But he tells Shar that he may not be able to defeat Larloch, even with all the wizardly might of his empire. He had to drain every magic item in his throne room and absorb the power just to think he could stand against Larloch. So that tells me Larloch is indeed a demigod.
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jordanz
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Posted - 24 Sep 2016 :  00:57:21  Show Profile  Visit jordanz's Homepage Send jordanz a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Lilianviaten

I think Larloch was portrayed as a full fledged demigod in The Herald. He single handedly crippled the collective might of the Shadovar. There was no fight or back and forth. He just backhanded them all at once, leaving dozens of archmages crippled, dead, or mentally broken. Granted, they were minus Brennus, Rivalen, and Hadrhune, who were all dead by then. But still.

In The Godborn, which takes place very shortly before The Herald, Telamont faces his son Rivalen (who is now a demigod). He thinks to himself that he can certainly hurt Rivalen, but likely can't kill him. Yet in the Herald, Telamont admits to Shar that he's afraid of Larloch. And we don't ever see Telamont afraid.

For crying out loud, Telamont gathered 5 other Shadovar archmages and imprisoned Mephistopheles. But he tells Shar that he may not be able to defeat Larloch, even with all the wizardly might of his empire. He had to drain every magic item in his throne room and absorb the power just to think he could stand against Larloch. So that tells me Larloch is indeed a demigod.



Well my point is that it is debatable. Sure in terms of power some of these guys approach demigods, but there is something significant ( lacking (divine spark?).... So while there is concern on an arch-mages part we don't really see that same level of concerned expressed by a Demigod.
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