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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
 Posted - 15 Sep 2016 : 16:22:22
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Okay, so this was inspired by Sleyvas, actually, with this quote, from the Kismet's Guide to Thay topic.
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
Kismet,
There is one thing that I can also recommend for development that hasn't seen the light of day. There was some kind of "artifact" that "extended power to those pledged to the red wizards". It became dormant following the events of the Time of Troubles. Originally I had thought to make it something like what was done with Glantri and its power source, but I realized later that this was some kind of cheap copy. Later, I came up with other ideas.
http://forum.candlekeep.com/pop_printer_friendly.asp?TOPIC_ID=19411
What kind of things can you think of to either tweak and/or improve upon this idea? One of the things that came to my mind was the idea of pact magic users actually linking to this "artifact" long ago. Possibly this "black star" isn't an avatar of Azuth at all, but possibly some Primordial entrapped in Thay.
This entry from the 2e Forgotten Realms Adventures page 127
"Prior to the Time of Troubles, the Red Wizards wielded greater magical power than they do now. This was due in part to a magical artifact operating within the
depths of Amruthar that extended power to those pledged to the Red Wizards (this artifact became just one more pawn in the massive human chess games engaged in
by the Zulkirs and Tharchions). During the magical chaos of the Godswar the device was either deactivated, stolen, or destroyed; in any event, its benefits to the
Red Wizards were lost. The Red Wizards in the post-Avatar Realms are treated as normal mages with no special powers (or specialist mages if they belong to a particular school). This sudden reduction in power to mere human levels has badly rattled the rulership of Thay, but has also led them to redouble their devotion to
wheeling, dealing, scheming, and plotting. "
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 15 Sep 2016 : 16:22:47
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So here's my idea:
It was a deity that was trapped under Thay. And the casting down of the gods during the Time of Troubles was enough for him to slip his bindings.
This theoretical deity, whom I will dub Naalos (a name I just created), was one of the deities thrown down by the Dark Three on their rise to power. Now reduced to a demigod, he had a serious mad-on going for them.
Additionally, he was quite perturbed at his years of being a magical battery... So once he was free, it was time to make plans and strike back.
Because magic was used to bind him, and then magic was drawn from him, he blamed Mystra, assuming she allowed and encouraged the whole thing.
Because the Dark Three were responsible for his fall, he wanted to do something to them. But they were gone, and had been replaced by Cyric.
Time to kill two birds with one stone.
It wasn't actually Cyric that attacked Mystra and caused the Spellplague -- it was Naalos. He'd made a deal with Asmodeus, who aided him with this deceit and helped empower the attack.
The plan was that Naalos would slay Mystra and use the resulting chaos to cast down Azuth, who had committed some ancient slight against Asmodeus. Asmodeus would get his revenge on Azuth. Naalos, by appearing to be Cyric, would cast the blame on him for Mystra's death -- thus getting revenge on Mystra and Cyric both.
And then Naalos, claiming to be a previously hidden Chosen of Mystra, would seize control of the Weave, replacing Mystra and once more becoming a full-on deity.
Of course, with Shar's meddling in the whole thing, and the fact he had overestimated his own abilities, the part about seizing control of the Weave went awry. What actually happened to Naalos is unknown, but it's likely he was blasted to tiny, tiny bits. It's also possible that the backlash of the Weave breaking loose was enough to seriously hurt Naalos and damage his mind, causing him to literally fall from the heavens and land somewhere in the Realms -- perhaps Vaasa, where he was mistaken for a primordial. |
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Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 15 Sep 2016 16:24:16 |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 15 Sep 2016 : 19:25:48
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Very nice.
First, I'd say Naalos was a primordial, just because I think all the 'Lost gods' should be primordials. It just gives them a more 'inhuman' (elemental) feel.
Second, have him trapped in an artifact (the Black Star? Maybe there was more then one?)pre-ToT. I love the spin you put on this, because it jibes with my own theories about Talona & Kiputytto (that Kiputytto was also able to 'come back' during the ToT - all their bonds were broken).
Third, I like the Glantri angle for Thay. It also meshes well with 2e's College of Wizardry (power-source all the guild members could 'tap into'). There is a similar thing going on with Talos up in Vassa now (so, making them all primordials fits multi-edition lore).
Fourth, I would make it so that the original artifact that entrapped Naalos would be used to trap Azuth (thus, he was never 'absorbed' - Asmodeus was just using his power, and spread a false rumor that he had absorbed him... he wouldn't want other archdevils to know there was something that powerful laying around Hell that could possibly usurp his authority).
Fifth, its a WAY better explanation for what happened there. Cyric killing Mystra never worked for me. Even long before 4e reared its ugly head, that entry in the back of the GHotR was the very first shot fired in the 'Edition Wars'. It was JUST AWFUL.
I wish WotC was able to come up with clever lore-weaves like this.
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"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 16 Sep 2016 04:49:10 |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11701 Posts |
Posted - 15 Sep 2016 : 20:27:02
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You two are both going down a somewhat similar road to where I'm going. I'm in agreement with Markustay that a primordial makes more sense. I'm also in agreement that the artifact IS the Black Star. I'm also in agreement that this Black Star has some ties to Cyric and some tie in to Mystra's "murder". One of the twists I'm thinking about throwing into things is that Mystra wasn't murdered. When she was attacked, the plane of Dweomerheart was instead transferred to be coterminous to Abeir rather than Toril.
I want to have several other planes localized to the realms also shifted to instead be localized to Abeir. Of these so far I have Lolth's OLD demonweb pits that she fled from prior to the spellplague, Heliopolis (Mulhorand's Pantheon home), and whatever the Untherite Pantheon's home plane is. I haven't worked out the why's of this yet though, other than I think Lolth's involvement in Maztica just prior to the spellplague and the involvement of Tiamat and Bahamut had something to do with Mulhorand/Unther.
On the Talos / Telos front, there isn't necessarily anything that ties these two particular entities together. That being said, I AM of the mindset that Talos is/was a primordial and NOT Gruumsh (along similar lines, I believe Bhaelros was a separate primordial from Talos). However, when the spellplague happened, Talos happened to get transferred to Abeir.
Yeah, I like the Glantri type angle, but I want there to be more.... I don't know how to say it... "finesse" .... to its use.... I may even tie in Thayd and the Theurgist Adepts and the underground Mulan Mausoleum City, Pholzubbalt / The Boneyard. I also don't want it to be nothing but a magical battery, but rather something that can be used even by say the fighters, rogues, and priests loyal to the red wizards. Mechanically though, that might not make sense. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 16 Sep 2016 : 05:10:55
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I hadn't even considered the Telos/Talos angle...
In some of my other 'ponderings', I've theorized that primoridals are deities, just not 'gods' (creatures you can pray to and receive spells from). The way some primordials were able to pull this off was to have an actual 'god' act as a go-between... a sort of 'conduit' for all the Faith-energy/spells being shifted back & forth. They strike a deal, and both get a piece of that power (I suppose the percentages all depend on the beings involved, and the deal struck upon). This was my way of explaining how some of FR's 'gods' got the 'primordial treatment' post-3e, and how that could be. It also goes a long way in explaining why some gods - even evil ones - have these little 'mini pantheons' of like-minded powers: its like a corporation, and everyone gets a 'cut' (so some of the lesser beings can start cults all over the place, and get divine sponsorship and what-not).
Thus, if thats how it works (and there is lots of evidence to support such a setup), then perhaps Telos formed an arrangement with Gruumsh way back when, and the two worked together as 'Garagos'. the Telos goes 'dormant' for a time, and Gruumsh strikes out on his own (in Faerūn), leaving some other deity (Tempus?) to pickup the portfolio and followers (Garagos becomes one of his aliases). After the Spellplague, Telos reawakens and Gruumsh takes back HIS portfolio with Telos' help.
We could say Gruumsh absorbed the Garagos aspect of Talos back into himself, and destroyed Talos, or it could even be Telos did this instead, and no-longer even needs Gruumsh as an intermediary (which means Gruumsh is only claiming to have been Talos all along, in order to swing his former ally's faithful over to him). The beauty of this is that it means the war portfolio was never split, and that the rule about two gods sharing one was never broken (a primordial doesn't have portfolios - only pure POWER - unless it has absorbed a 'human soul', and thus never violates the rule when they share faithful with a god). I'd personally go with Gruumsh absorbing Talos, though. We wouldn't want Telos to become too 'human', and with Gruumsh doing it, it is closer to the 4e canon. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Brimstone
Great Reader
USA
3286 Posts |
Posted - 16 Sep 2016 : 11:02:34
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| Did we ever find out what the "Black Star" was/is? |
"These things also I have observed: that knowledge of our world is
to be nurtured like a precious flower, for it is the most precious
thing we have. Wherefore guard the word written and heed
words unwritten and set them down ere they fade . . . Learn
then, well, the arts of reading, writing, and listening true, and they
will lead you to the greatest art of all: understanding."
Alaundo of Candlekeep |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11701 Posts |
Posted - 16 Sep 2016 : 14:01:48
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No, we never did. We have the ravings of a "mad witch" Marchayn referring to Dove "smashing" the blackstar (which I assume is Dove Falconhand.... but...). We then have references to Escalthar "the Black Star"... which could just be a way of having a wicked name.... like Cyric having the name "Dark Sun"... and Kossuth having an "Order of the Black Flame"....
Actually, the more I think on it, if it were a primordial trapped/slumbering/whatever beneath Thay, it would make a lot of sense if it were Kossuth. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11701 Posts |
Posted - 16 Sep 2016 : 14:05:33
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
I hadn't even considered the Telos/Talos angle...
In some of my other 'ponderings', I've theorized that primoridals are deities, just not 'gods' (creatures you can pray to and receive spells from). The way some primordials were able to pull this off was to have an actual 'god' act as a go-between... a sort of 'conduit' for all the Faith-energy/spells being shifted back & forth. They strike a deal, and both get a piece of that power (I suppose the percentages all depend on the beings involved, and the deal struck upon). This was my way of explaining how some of FR's 'gods' got the 'primordial treatment' post-3e, and how that could be. It also goes a long way in explaining why some gods - even evil ones - have these little 'mini pantheons' of like-minded powers: its like a corporation, and everyone gets a 'cut' (so some of the lesser beings can start cults all over the place, and get divine sponsorship and what-not).
Along these lines, the sun itself might be Kossuth and the various sun deities are simply acting as a conduit for him to have worshippers. Not sure if I like that idea, but... |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11701 Posts |
Posted - 02 Oct 2016 : 19:19:39
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Call it irony, but I just happened to be doing some research on 4e lore in Prince of Undeath. I find a "Black Star" reference and its to a primordial named Timesus. Kind of digging to see what this is about. Granted, I know its not FR specific, as the Raven Queen never made it to the realms.
"Orcus, Demon Prince of the Undead, wants to usurp control over the spirits of the dead from the Raven Queen, the god of Death and Fate. The Prince ofUndeath has slowly drawn his plans against her from the heart of his Abyssal realm, the citadel called Everlost. Everlost straddles a yawning chasm whose sheer slopes hold hundreds of tombs and burial sites, creating a tiered necropolis.
Just as with his citadel, Orcus's plans against the Raven Queen are tiered, one plot hiding beneath another. Each past undertaking has moved Orcus a step closer to achieving his goal, even while concealing an even more devious plan beneath it. Orcus has salted the natural world and its echo planes with death cults to oppose the Raven Queen, has fostered powerful servitors to sap worship away from her, has diverted souls from her judgment to weaken her, has looted the banned armory of the Dawn War to fight her, and even launched a raid against Fate's Temple of Temples to directly threaten her.
But all of these efforts pale before Orcus's ultimate aspiration. In order to achieve it. the Prince of Undeath acquired an ancient primordial, a creature called Timesus, the Black Star. Few primordials were feared as much by the original gods as Timesus." |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11701 Posts |
Posted - 02 Oct 2016 : 19:26:03
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actually the next couple paragraphs are also of interest... again, not realms specific...but....
"Through the efforts ofvarious servitors, from the cultist Kalarel, to the dragon Urishtar and Elder Arantham, to the Ghoul King Doresain. Orcus's grand plans have
progressed to their endpoint. Now the Demon Prince has gained Timesus the Black Star, a primordial whose power was once so incontestable that an entire divine armada
went down in defeat before it.
The primordial, trapped in stasis, was unearthed from its prison and broken into chunks of blackstar rock. The chunks were transported in crates [rom the Shadowfell
to Sigil, and then to the White Kingdom, deep within the Abyss. Orcus plans to reconstitute the pieces of the primordial, returning Timesus to its original state. The Demon Prince has one improvement to make upon the primordial, however. Orcus wants to turn Timesus into an undead creature-so that it will better serve the Demon
Prince of Undeath." |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 02 Oct 2016 : 20:18:38
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| In my previous alternate spin on the Spellplague, I made the Black Star into a black star sapphire that was a power key of Shar's. It seemed appropriate to use it that way, gave me a way to tie in that bit of prophecy, and also gave an angle for getting the Shadow Weave out of the picture -- the Shadow Weave has been problematic since they introduced it. |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11701 Posts |
Posted - 02 Oct 2016 : 20:48:48
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Hmmmm, so this black star has a definite source where it was at (in the shadowfell), so not sure if I can link it to the artifact beneath Amruthar. However, the artifact actually being "the black flame" or Kossuth himself is one thing that had originally occurred to me. I find it interesting as well that the 4e campaign guide specifically has Amruthar on fire and a mummy-priest of Kossuth ruling its Ziggurat (that hates Tam).
From the Forgotten Realms Campaign Guide, 4e
"Burning Amruthar: Once an independent city within Thay, Amruthar bore the brunt of the lands devastation. Earthquakes splintered it, lava and mud wrecked some parts, and a rain of rock and ash buried others. Deep chasms that formed within the city filled with molten rock that never cooled. Miraculously, the black ziggurat dedicated to Kossuth survived the ruin.
The high priest of that temple, the mummy lord Chon Vrael, maintains the place to this day and welcomes worshipers, defying the Thayan ban on deities other than Bane. Chon is a fierce enemy of Szass Tam. The priest commands a small army of fanatics and elemental creatures, including a tribe of fire giants, which helps him keep the city free of Thayan control for now. Some suspect that the Regent of Thay tolerates Burning Amruthar for his own reasons."
from Prince of Undeath
"Orcus distracted the Raven Queen's attention through various ploys. He recovered the primordial named Timesusfrom a region ofthe Shadowfell called Death's Reach.
he kept his direct involvement hidden by transferring the primordial in pieces (as its elemental nature made such transfer feasible) through Sigil and on to Doresain theGhoul King. Finally. Timesus was restored to full power in the Forge of Four Worlds. From there, Timesus was transported down to the Abyssal Nadir, to the very Heart of the Abyss itself. Here.
This is where Orcus's ultimate plan succeeded. Timesus harvested a shard from the Heart, and presented it to Orcus. Now the Demon Prince is on his way to the Raven Queen's realm to use the shard against Death.
But Timesus remains, still subordinate to the will of the Demon Prince, and still hammering at the Heart of the Abyss with its uniquely resistant body. With each shard Timesus breaks off another deity faces potential destruction at the hands of Orcus" |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11701 Posts |
Posted - 02 Oct 2016 : 20:50:26
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| Oh, but on that... this black star from the Orcus adventure CAN definitely be shattered/smashed, and then later reconstituted in this "Forge of Four Worlds" at the heart of the Abyss. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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ghilteras
Acolyte
USA
14 Posts |
Posted - 26 Oct 2016 : 02:51:33
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| About Talos: the only canon about 5e is sword coast adventure and Talos is treated as a different god, there is no mention of it being an aspect of Gruumsh. All these flip flops are confusing, they should really clarify |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 26 Oct 2016 : 04:07:25
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Now you have me thinking about the Black Diamond again (from the Fey/Faerie lore). And I STILL think that ended-up in the Crown of Horns (which works well because the Fey came from 'the east' and had interactions with Imaskar, and Myrkul was a prince from Murghōm, which was an Imaskari 'survivor state').
Now, we throw all the ingredients into a bowl and set the mixer on 'Realms' and what do we get? Several, important 'Black Gems', and possibly multiple 'Black Stars'? Could there be SEVEN of them? This could get very interesting... 
Bane
Bhaal
Myrkul
Xvim
Cyric
Who else was involved somehow with 'defeating' Mystra? There's Shar of course, but what about Velsharoon (whom I believe Bane helped to elevate)? Seven gods, Seven 'Black Stars' (each a different gem) - one's even called 'The Black Sun' (which IS a 'star'). I wouldn't make Shar one of the 'seven' though - seams more like a plan she herself set in motion. Seven 'Dark stars' to defeat Mystra's 'Seven Points of Light'? |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 26 Oct 2016 04:08:30 |
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Cyrinishad
Learned Scribe
300 Posts |
Posted - 03 Nov 2016 : 18:33:54
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This is a great scroll... Really got the gears turning in my mind.
Minor clarification on Velsharoon... I had thought that Talos had sponsored Velsharoon's divinity.
The speculated Talos/Gruumsh & Talos/Telos connections and the lore surrounding Velsharoon's ascension & these "Black Stars" raise interesting possibilities about Velsharoon's role in everything.
Needless to say I like the idea that Cyric was somehow framed by another entity, and wrongfully imprisoned by those notorious self-righteous troublemakers: Tyr, Lathander, and Sune. |
To know, is to know that you know nothing. That is the meaning of true knowledge. -Socrates
Don't cry because it's over. Smile because it happened. -Dr. Seuss |
Edited by - Cyrinishad on 03 Nov 2016 18:51:21 |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11701 Posts |
Posted - 03 Nov 2016 : 22:23:47
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quote:
Originally posted by Cyrinishad
This is a great scroll... Really got the gears turning in my mind.
Minor clarification on Velsharoon... I had thought that Talos had sponsored Velsharoon's divinity.
The speculated Talos/Gruumsh & Talos/Telos connections and the lore surrounding Velsharoon's ascension & these "Black Stars" raise interesting possibilities about Velsharoon's role in everything.
Needless to say I like the idea that Cyric was somehow framed by another entity, and wrongfully imprisoned by those notorious self-righteous troublemakers: Tyr, Lathander, and Sune.
Yeah one of the things I've been playing with has been that in 4e Soorenar was drowned during the spellplague and that much of western Chessenta was affected by the transference of Akanul. Presumably, portions of Chessenta may have gone to Abeir. Velsharoon's "Tower Terrible" may have actually transferred to Abeir. Velsharoon was also known as an alias of Mellifleur within the realms (a lich deity known for having multiple phylacteries). What if one of those phylacteries was hidden in the "Tower Terrible".... which I firmly believe became a center of his faith since its where he lived, but probably had not been fully explored yet.... if and when it transferred to Abeir? |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Cyrinishad
Learned Scribe
300 Posts |
Posted - 04 Nov 2016 : 18:27:02
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| ...Weren't there also 7 keys created by Tyr/Lathander/Sune that were hidden to keep Cyric imprisoned? Perhaps this is just another lie spread by those so-called do-gooders... Is it possible that they didn't create those 7 keys? Instead they actually split up the 7 Black Stars and had them hidden on Toril once again? Or with the Sundering sent some of the Black Stars to Abeir to try and prevent Cyric from obtaining them again? |
To know, is to know that you know nothing. That is the meaning of true knowledge. -Socrates
Don't cry because it's over. Smile because it happened. -Dr. Seuss |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 04 Nov 2016 : 19:05:02
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I don't recall seeing anything about 7 keys, but then again, I am weak on anything that happened post-3E.
And to be clear, this alternate spin was not about painting Cyric in a better light - I think he's a pathetic git, lacking any strength of character and driven solely by petty interests. To borrow from Harry Potter, he's more like Peter Pettigrew than Voldemort -- and even that's a compliment.
I was simply running with a nifty idea; making Cyric a kinda-sorta innocent victim was necessary to reconcile my idea with existing lore. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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Cyrinishad
Learned Scribe
300 Posts |
Posted - 04 Nov 2016 : 20:15:14
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 I hear you Wooly, but what else can you expect in a post from an Artifact created by Cyric?
I'm a little shaky on the post 3e lore myself, but I thought your concept in your OP was tremendous... and considering he is so clearly not a victim in pre 3e lore despite his mad claims that he is a victim of the other gods... it's a great juxtaposition of circumstances if in his most epic act of deicide he actually is made to be a victim while everyone is certain of his guilt. A bit like The Boy who cried Wolf. Good Stuff. |
To know, is to know that you know nothing. That is the meaning of true knowledge. -Socrates
Don't cry because it's over. Smile because it happened. -Dr. Seuss |
Edited by - Cyrinishad on 04 Nov 2016 20:22:24 |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11701 Posts |
Posted - 04 Nov 2016 : 21:42:42
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Hmmmm, one other thing that comes to mind with the original idea here. This artifact was beneath Amruthar. I wonder if this artifact could link back all the way to the time of Thayd. Maybe it was a power source of some sort for the Theurgist Adepts as well. It would also be kind of near the area where the orcgates supposedly opened. I know this doesn't fit the dark three, but...
On the idea of Cyric not being the one who challenged Mystra though.... one of the things I've been intrigued with is the idea of Valigan Thirdborn, god of Anarchy. I've half wondered if Valigan isn't some kind of trickster god like Loki (especially since Tyr shows up to oust him). Given the Helm (Heimdall?), Tyr, and Mystra were all affected by "Cyric" around the time of the spellplague... it could fit... Also, given that the Valigan death / Tyr involvement is right around the time of the dark three and they were in that area... that could also possibly be tied up. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11701 Posts |
Posted - 04 Nov 2016 : 21:56:14
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Hmmm, and my mind keeps spinning... on the Thayd users having access to "the artifact"... I like the idea of it being the body of a Primordial, but Thayd seemingly had some links to "fiends" .... lore is linking the Abyss to the elemental chaos..... maybe some kind of Primordial demon is entrapped there? It might also fit with the Nars leaving the region and getting all into demon worship afterward as well.
Hmmmm.... or maybe an Elder Evil like Pandorym that had ties to Imaskar (which also has ties to Entropy which was apparently released following the spellplague according to the dragon article on Chessenta where the Maw of Entropy was absorbing the countryside).... |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
Edited by - sleyvas on 04 Nov 2016 22:30:47 |
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ghilteras
Acolyte
USA
14 Posts |
Posted - 15 Dec 2016 : 01:35:44
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quote:
Originally posted by Cyrinishad
The speculated Talos/Gruumsh & Talos/Telos connections and the lore surrounding Velsharoon's ascension & these "Black Stars" raise interesting possibilities about Velsharoon's role in everything.
I don't know about Talos and Telos, but there is no speculation about Talos being an aspect of Gruumsh in 4e, the real question is whether that's still the case in 5e. The Sword Coast Adventure Guide treat them as different gods, so should we just pretend that 4e never happened? Too much is left to speculation and there is only so much a DM without a lot of free time between family and a job can fill with his imagination.. |
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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3802 Posts |
Posted - 15 Dec 2016 : 03:45:03
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quote:
Originally posted by ghilteras
I don't know about Talos and Telos, but there is no speculation about Talos being an aspect of Gruumsh in 4e, the real question is whether that's still the case in 5e. The Sword Coast Adventure Guide treat them as different gods, so should we just pretend that 4e never happened? Too much is left to speculation and there is only so much a DM without a lot of free time between family and a job can fill with his imagination..
The lore in 4e ignored a lot of what came before it, 5e essentially reverted all of that. See it as a huge in-world soft reboot caused by Ao (because that's what it is). |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
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EltonRobb
Seeker
USA
66 Posts |
Posted - 15 Dec 2016 : 05:07:15
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Ao rewrote the Tablets of Fate, did he not?
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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3802 Posts |
Posted - 15 Dec 2016 : 05:36:32
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| Yes, and in doing so he separated Toril from Abeir, and brought a lot of deities back to life. |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
Edited by - Irennan on 15 Dec 2016 17:43:14 |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 15 Dec 2016 : 17:19:37
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I picture the 'Tablets of Fate' being the 'source code' for the Crystal sphere itself. Its the GUI; the multiverse is the coding on the processor itself.
Whenever I try to work something out in D&D/fiction, I first try to look at what Marvel comics has done (I love how they handle their multiverse), or try to relate everything in terms of computer tech. The universe is no more 'aware' than a really powerful computer - it can only do what it is programmed to do. The Spheres are GUI's, and things like Mythal fields, pocket dimensions, etc, are 'apps' running on top of all that. It makes it easier to imagine how things interrelate when you reinterpret them into something that uses pure logic.
As for magic... we call that 'hacking'.
And I suppose that things like the Imaskari 'Godwall' would be akin to 'extensions'. Programs that allow other programs to do certain things, like Flash Player, or drivers. Basically, a more permanent 'hack' to the GUI.
EDIT: And as long as I am (once again) on this thought-train, I guess Karsus was fiddling with the Registry, and caused a system-wide crash. Silly Karsus... trying to reprogram the Sphere with only a mail-order correspondence degree! |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 15 Dec 2016 17:29:16 |
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Diffan
Great Reader
USA
4430 Posts |
Posted - 16 Dec 2016 : 01:07:48
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quote:
Originally posted by Irennan
quote:
Originally posted by ghilteras
I don't know about Talos and Telos, but there is no speculation about Talos being an aspect of Gruumsh in 4e, the real question is whether that's still the case in 5e. The Sword Coast Adventure Guide treat them as different gods, so should we just pretend that 4e never happened? Too much is left to speculation and there is only so much a DM without a lot of free time between family and a job can fill with his imagination..
The lore in 4e ignored a lot of what came before it, 5e essentially reverted all of that. See it as a huge in-world soft reboot caused by Ao (because that's what it is).
I think it's ambiguous because it leaves it up to the individual DM/group to decide whether or not they're aspects or not. Personally I love the idea of Aspects of greater deities or different version of the same deity to appeal to a greater amount of followers so I've kept them. But it's entirely possible that they can be separate deities with no connect if that's the way they're played.
EDIT: Also creates a great way to infuse things like heresies and conflict within a particular religion (ala 3-faced heresy). |
Edited by - Diffan on 16 Dec 2016 01:09:10 |
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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3802 Posts |
Posted - 16 Dec 2016 : 03:48:01
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| The 3-faced heresy kinda went down the gutter, since Tyr and Helm are explicitly stated to be back. That said, if you think about it, we as readers have always known that it was false, but after their "demise" there could have been a possibility that they were actually coexisting with Torm in some way (kinda like current Mystra is also all the former Mystra's). I agree that the SCAG doesn't really specify that the elven deities are not aspects (although things do look like that, because the book doesn't even mention the existence of aspects at all, IIRC). |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
Edited by - Irennan on 16 Dec 2016 03:48:45 |
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Another alternate spin on the Spellplague
