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 Thay: Unapproachable East or Old Empire
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Gyor
Senior Scribe

993 Posts

Posted - 18 Aug 2016 :  22:05:30  Show Profile Send Gyor a Private Message  Reply with Quote  Delete Topic
Poll Question:
What makes more sense concidering Thay to be part the Unapproachable East or the Old Empires

Choices:

Unapproachable East
Old Empires

(Anonymous Vote)

sleyvas
Great Reader

USA
5031 Posts

Posted - 18 Aug 2016 :  22:13:31  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Considering its at war with every neighbor it has (except Thesk... and even that's not necessarily true), its an outsider to all those communities. It is a rather young empire built on the bones of older ones, and drawing from the history of them all (Raumathar / Narfell / Unther/ Mulhorand / Imaskar being the main ones).

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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Gyor
Senior Scribe

993 Posts

Posted - 18 Aug 2016 :  22:19:29  Show Profile Send Gyor a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Okay why is Thay concidered to be part of the Unapproachable East, when it has more in common with the Old Empires then it does with the other Unapproachable East nations of Aglorond and Rasheman.

Thay was literally apart of Mulhorand, one of the Old Empires once, they speak the same language, share countless customs like shaving the head, shared blood and history and trade for millenia, and have for wars against each other.

They share a border.

Thay supported Unther against Mulhorand.

So they are all tied together.

The Unapproachable East on the other hand, no cultural connection, no history of being one nation, yes to wars between them, in fact wars and limited trade seem to be the only real connection between Thay and the Unapproachable East.

So why is Thay concidered a part of the Unapproachabe East, when its ties are to the Old Empires.

Edited by - Gyor on 18 Aug 2016 22:20:22
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Gyor
Senior Scribe

993 Posts

Posted - 18 Aug 2016 :  22:36:51  Show Profile Send Gyor a Private Message  Reply with Quote
How much influence does Raumathar / Narfell have on Thay culturally compared to Mulhorand and to a lesser extent Imaskar and Unther?

Its still a Mulan nation state with long cultural and historical ties to Mulhorand.

Thay isn't just built on the bones of the Mulhorand Empire, it has more in common with Mulhorand currently culturally then Chessenta does with Unther.

For one nation to be built on the bones of another it has be Empire A dies off and an unrelated group comes along and uses what remains to build their own seperate empire, with its own completely seperate culture, except maybe its uses the Empire A's scavenged tech.

No Mulhorand and They were the same Empire, but split in 2 over philosohical differences. Its like if the American civil war had ended with the South getting its independence, it'd still a North American Anglo culture, like the American Union and Canada, it wouldn't suddenly become part of Latin America.

Thay was ruled by Pharos for hundreds if not thousands of years. What connection does Thay have to the Unapproachable East that comes close to comparing?
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Gyor
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993 Posts

Posted - 18 Aug 2016 :  23:13:18  Show Profile Send Gyor a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Okay the connection between Thay and the Unapproachable East just hit me, its meant to be a stand in for Conan's Hyboria.

You have Thay (Stygia) with its Egyptian and Dark Wizards, you have your Barbarians, Rasheman (Cimmaria), and your more civilized nation, Algorand (Aquilonia), and Asian/Shou influenced Thesk (Khitan).

Still that more of a OOC then IC connection.
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Rymac
Learned Scribe

USA
280 Posts

Posted - 19 Aug 2016 :  06:29:17  Show Profile  Visit Rymac's Homepage Send Rymac a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Gyor

Okay the connection between Thay and the Unapproachable East just hit me, its meant to be a stand in for Conan's Hyboria.

You have Thay (Stygia) with its Egyptian and Dark Wizards, you have your Barbarians, Rasheman (Cimmaria), and your more civilized nation, Algorand (Aquilonia), and Asian/Shou influenced Thesk (Khitan).

Still that more of a OOC then IC connection.



That IS an interesting ah-ha/eureka thought. And it makes so much sense. I always thought that Thay was a stand-in for a more oriental-type culture before Kara-Tur was attached to the Realms, but Thay and the surrounding areas a stand-ins for REH's Hyperborea fits so well. That's a great observation.

- Ryan
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Dewaint
Learned Scribe

Germany
120 Posts

Posted - 19 Aug 2016 :  10:28:51  Show Profile Send Dewaint a Private Message  Reply with Quote
it's some sort of catch-22, isn't it?

IMO 'cause of the historical ties to Mulhorand and origins of the Red Wizards, which stood since these old times as ruler of Thay, keeping the ruling class almost free from foreign influences, and the more or less futile wars with it's northern neighbours and Aglarond.

Nevertheless the Red Wizards (not Thay as nation IMO) has political and power interests in almost all other regions too.

That said, I would opt for Old Empires.

Edited by - Dewaint on 19 Aug 2016 10:34:04
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BadCatMan
Learned Scribe

Australia
171 Posts

Posted - 19 Aug 2016 :  10:30:09  Show Profile Send BadCatMan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I've sometimes wondered if Thay was actually named after "Cathay", i.e., China. After all, the Chinese-sounding Zhengyi came from there. From the old Bloodstone Lands sources, Damara & Vaasa, with the monks of the Monastery of the Yellow Rose and assassins/ninja of the Citadel of Assassins, kinda feel like an early Orient for the Realms (that is, incorporating some eastern elements), so I imagine Thay did too.


Culturally, Thay's an Old Empire. Geographically, it's part of the Unapproachable East. :)

BadCatMan, B.Sc. (Hons), M.Sc.
Scientific technical editor
Head DM of the Realms of Adventure play-by-post community
Bureaucrat of the Forgotten Realms Wiki

Edited by - BadCatMan on 19 Aug 2016 12:48:45
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Brimstone
Great Reader

USA
2858 Posts

Posted - 19 Aug 2016 :  12:41:00  Show Profile Send Brimstone a Private Message  Reply with Quote
What BCM said Both...

"These things also I have observed: that knowledge of our world is
to be nurtured like a precious flower, for it is the most precious
thing we have. Wherefore guard the word written and heed
words unwritten and set them down ere they fade . . . Learn
then, well, the arts of reading, writing, and listening true, and they
will lead you to the greatest art of all: understanding."
Alaundo of Candlekeep
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Gyor
Senior Scribe

993 Posts

Posted - 19 Aug 2016 :  13:26:37  Show Profile Send Gyor a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Rymac

quote:
Originally posted by Gyor

Okay the connection between Thay and the Unapproachable East just hit me, its meant to be a stand in for Conan's Hyboria.

You have Thay (Stygia) with its Egyptian and Dark Wizards, you have your Barbarians, Rasheman (Cimmaria), and your more civilized nation, Algorand (Aquilonia), and Asian/Shou influenced Thesk (Khitan).

Still that more of a OOC then IC connection.



That IS an interesting ah-ha/eureka thought. And it makes so much sense. I always thought that Thay was a stand-in for a more oriental-type culture before Kara-Tur was attached to the Realms, but Thay and the surrounding areas a stand-ins for REH's Hyperborea fits so well. That's a great observation.



I remember hearing somewhere that Mulhorand was originally supposed to be FRs Stygia, but that got changed for some reason, so it wasn't a big stretch to realize that the original Mulhorand concept got split in two, with Thay being the original plan for it, and with actual Mulhorand being more for Egyptphiles.

And once I realized Thay=Stygia was beside a Barbarian nation, like Cimmeria, it all snapped together one piece at a time.
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Gyor
Senior Scribe

993 Posts

Posted - 19 Aug 2016 :  13:29:43  Show Profile Send Gyor a Private Message  Reply with Quote
"What BCM said Both..."

I suppose it could be both, if you split it onto modern Unapproachable East vs. The Historical Old Empires, but that expands the old empires region to include anywhere founded by Unther, Mulhorand, or possibly Imaskar.
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sleyvas
Great Reader

USA
5031 Posts

Posted - 19 Aug 2016 :  19:08:52  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Yeah, that's why I stated it the way in my first response. Its not technically a part of any of them. For that matter, Rashemen is also a loner that can be said to not fit the mold of its neighbors, but its definitely built on its Raumathari roots. Thay's rulers are Mulan, but they've rejected the core ideals of the Mulhorandi (service to Pharaohs and gods), in return for freedom (granted this freedom is only for those who take it). Its people are Rashemaar and a large motley collection of OTHER in the form of slaves, orcs, gnolls, goblinkin, centaurs, and other races.

In its early years, the conflict between Thay and Mulhorand was big in their society. However, the last 3 centuries or so has turned them more eastward as Mulhorand become more of a sleeping giant that's lost control of its outliers. I wouldn't say that Thay still shares much culturally with Mulhorand (other than a superiority complex and a need for slaves... and even that is now changing), other than some superficial looks like shaving the head. The idea that it mirrors Stygia is something I've said in the past as well. Prior to the Spellplague though, it was definitely more concerned with its connections eastward and was involved more eastward, especially given that that's the direction it generally sent enclaves (although it also sent enclaves south into Chessenta and Unther... but the one in Unther was more like a small tent city given its description in I think it was the Alabaster Staff).

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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sleyvas
Great Reader

USA
5031 Posts

Posted - 19 Aug 2016 :  19:36:18  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Gyor

How much influence does Raumathar / Narfell have on Thay culturally compared to Mulhorand and to a lesser extent Imaskar and Unther?




Just to note here, there's various things that kind of show influence of Raumathar and Narfell. For instance, one of the chief deities of Thay is Kossuth, which the Raumathari had a lot of love for elemental based magics (and they were the ones that summoned an avatar of Kossuth that destroyed Kensten aka future Bezantur). I think the Thayan love of fire magics can be found rooted in an exploration of the Raumathari empire, which was an empire which favored battlmages.

Regarding Narfell, I think that a lot of magic based upon conjuration and necromancy can be traced back to this empire. Why necromancy? Narfell had a strong following of Orcus worshippers, and its leaders even bred with Orcus. However, I also suspect that the city of Pholzubbalt / "the Boneyard" beneath Thesk and was formed around the time of Narfell/Raumathar's fall had a strong necromantic influence as well.

When it comes to Narfell and Raumathar, it should also be noted that both of these nations were somewhat birthed from Mulhorand as well. They rose up after taking secrets of magic home following the Orcgate wars. I suspect that Narfell had a significant number of Theurgist Adepts amongst their numbers (which harkens back to the lost knowledge of not just the old empires but the Imaskari who dealt with devils and demons)

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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Gyor
Senior Scribe

993 Posts

Posted - 19 Aug 2016 :  20:28:32  Show Profile Send Gyor a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas

quote:
Originally posted by Gyor

How much influence does Raumathar / Narfell have on Thay culturally compared to Mulhorand and to a lesser extent Imaskar and Unther?




Just to note here, there's various things that kind of show influence of Raumathar and Narfell. For instance, one of the chief deities of Thay is Kossuth, which the Raumathari had a lot of love for elemental based magics (and they were the ones that summoned an avatar of Kossuth that destroyed Kensten aka future Bezantur). I think the Thayan love of fire magics can be found rooted in an exploration of the Raumathari empire, which was an empire which favored battlmages.

Regarding Narfell, I think that a lot of magic based upon conjuration and necromancy can be traced back to this empire. Why necromancy? Narfell had a strong following of Orcus worshippers, and its leaders even bred with Orcus. However, I also suspect that the city of Pholzubbalt / "the Boneyard" beneath Thesk and was formed around the time of Narfell/Raumathar's fall had a strong necromantic influence as well.

When it comes to Narfell and Raumathar, it should also be noted that both of these nations were somewhat birthed from Mulhorand as well. They rose up after taking secrets of magic home following the Orcgate wars. I suspect that Narfell had a significant number of Theurgist Adepts amongst their numbers (which harkens back to the lost knowledge of not just the old empires but the Imaskari who dealt with devils and demons)



Hmmm, I hadn't thought of that, but your right Mulhorand likely had a major cultural influence across the Unapproachable East. Still its not as extensive as that upon Thay, Mulhorand and Thay were 1 nation once.
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Gyor
Senior Scribe

993 Posts

Posted - 19 Aug 2016 :  20:35:48  Show Profile Send Gyor a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas

Yeah, that's why I stated it the way in my first response. Its not technically a part of any of them. For that matter, Rashemen is also a loner that can be said to not fit the mold of its neighbors, but its definitely built on its Raumathari roots. Thay's rulers are Mulan, but they've rejected the core ideals of the Mulhorandi (service to Pharaohs and gods), in return for freedom (granted this freedom is only for those who take it). Its people are Rashemaar and a large motley collection of OTHER in the form of slaves, orcs, gnolls, goblinkin, centaurs, and other races.

In its early years, the conflict between Thay and Mulhorand was big in their society. However, the last 3 centuries or so has turned them more eastward as Mulhorand become more of a sleeping giant that's lost control of its outliers. I wouldn't say that Thay still shares much culturally with Mulhorand (other than a superiority complex and a need for slaves... and even that is now changing), other than some superficial looks like shaving the head. The idea that it mirrors Stygia is something I've said in the past as well. Prior to the Spellplague though, it was definitely more concerned with its connections eastward and was involved more eastward, especially given that that's the direction it generally sent enclaves (although it also sent enclaves south into Chessenta and Unther... but the one in Unther was more like a small tent city given its description in I think it was the Alabaster Staff).



The slaves have largely been culturally assimulated into Mulan culture, abit as a lower class.

And in 5e Mulhorand is back and it isn't sleeping, its more united, awake, and ambitious then it has been in centuries. It has the baking of all those God Kings and Nezram the World Walker is back and its banned slavery so that massive class divide is gone. Its a new era, in factt you could say its a New Kingdom Era for Mulhorand :D.
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The Arcanamach
Master of Realmslore

1582 Posts

Posted - 20 Aug 2016 :  01:29:12  Show Profile Send The Arcanamach a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Voted Old Empires because in the end there is more in common there than with the UE.

I have a dream that one day, all game worlds will exist as one.
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Gyor
Senior Scribe

993 Posts

Posted - 20 Aug 2016 :  15:38:57  Show Profile Send Gyor a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Its kind of fun watching the polls horse race numbers shift from day to day.
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