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shoracthegold
Acolyte

USA
5 Posts

Posted - 25 Oct 2016 :  04:47:07  Show Profile Send shoracthegold a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Does anyone know if Wotc will be out sourcing their novel line? If not don't the rights go back to Ed?
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Sothron
Acolyte

16 Posts

Posted - 26 Oct 2016 :  00:46:51  Show Profile Send Sothron a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I find it unreal they won't keep the series going. It certainly looks like it is official that they are done with the novels. Sad. I will not be keeping up with the setting or D&D if that is the case going forwards and I've been a fan since the 80's.
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shoracthegold
Acolyte

USA
5 Posts

Posted - 26 Oct 2016 :  05:24:07  Show Profile Send shoracthegold a Private Message  Reply with Quote
If they do stop publishing novels ed gets the realms back. Does that mean that eberron goes to baker and dragonlance back to weis and Hickman and so on ? If that's the case and the realms go back to their creators than this is a blessing. It would be nice to see all those shared universes in print again like the good old days. I know that's just a dream though Hasbro would rather shelve them then let them go. I hate that company.. .boycott anyone?
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Richard Lee Byers
Forgotten Realms Author

USA
1814 Posts

Posted - 26 Oct 2016 :  13:49:45  Show Profile  Visit Richard Lee Byers's Homepage  Reply with Quote
shoracthegold: It depends on the particular contract. They aren't necessarily all alike with regard to the reversion of rights or anything else.
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Gareth
Seeker

United Kingdom
55 Posts

Posted - 26 Oct 2016 :  13:51:30  Show Profile Send Gareth a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Pretty sure that the "reversion" clause in Ed's original agreement is not standard across the various novel lines and campaign settings that TSR/WOTC have published over the years. From memory, I believe that DL was created in house (and later MWP licenced it), while Eberron was the winning entry in the great create a campaign setting competition, which I'd also assume came with a contract that gave the rights to WOTC.

For good or ill, it rather seems that Hasbro/WOTC are just following what seems a fairly standard business practice- maximising their returns from the resources they have. If they get a 10% return off every dollar invested in Novels, but a 20% return off game products, then on a limited budget the dollar will go to the 20% return rather than the 10% return. I doubt they even consider the novels as a advertisement/lead in product to the game products either which is perhaps how they have been used in the past.

Of course, I could be entirely wrong.

Gareth
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Irennan
Great Reader

Italy
3802 Posts

Posted - 26 Oct 2016 :  13:53:12  Show Profile Send Irennan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by shoracthegold

Does anyone know if Wotc will be out sourcing their novel line? If not don't the rights go back to Ed?




As I understand it, the rights would revert to Ed only if he
wasn't contracted to write at least 1 book or FR product/year. However, that book doesn't have to be a novel.

Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things.
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Irennan
Great Reader

Italy
3802 Posts

Posted - 26 Oct 2016 :  13:55:31  Show Profile Send Irennan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Mirtek

A thread from enworld, which I found very enlighting.

http://www.enworld.org/forum/showthread.php?496562-D-amp-D-product-sales-numbers-on-Amazon-etc

Note posts 2, 5 and 10

Now I know that this is just amazon and they are sold via other channels as well. But there is no denying that Amazon has cornered a significant share of the market and the rest is not likely to show completely different trends then on amazon

So given those figures I can no longer blame WotC for stopping the novel line.



This is quite the bummer. I thought FR novels were more successful than that, but now I can see why FR=Drizzt to so many people.

Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things.
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Petra_W
Acolyte

Germany
30 Posts

Posted - 27 Oct 2016 :  02:02:24  Show Profile Send Petra_W a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I was just wondering: How about they move at least to the ebook segment. No more printed books for a while, but at least ebooks? Maybe in the DMG from hobby writers that have fun and get a little money this way. Like the adventures in DMG. Dont have to be a whole ebook, some virtual short stories are ok for me too.
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shoracthegold
Acolyte

USA
5 Posts

Posted - 27 Oct 2016 :  05:40:58  Show Profile Send shoracthegold a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I'm hoping against hope that the upcoming movie (given the resurgence of the popularity of the genera ) that they will reboot and roll out books again. I think that if the movie does well that they realize that the books are an asset and prove profitable.
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Spoon
Acolyte

Australia
18 Posts

Posted - 30 Oct 2016 :  07:31:24  Show Profile Send Spoon a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Irennan
Besides, RAS kinda does his own thing, ignoring important parts of FR lore (to the point of glaring mistakes)


Can you elaborate on this further please?

Edited by - Spoon on 30 Oct 2016 07:33:24
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Irennan
Great Reader

Italy
3802 Posts

Posted - 30 Oct 2016 :  13:18:13  Show Profile Send Irennan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Spoon

quote:
Originally posted by Irennan
Besides, RAS kinda does his own thing, ignoring important parts of FR lore (to the point of glaring mistakes)


Can you elaborate on this further please?



That statement was prompted by a couple puzzling things that appear in his latest books. For exmple, Shade crashing in the region of the Anauroch (while Shade destroyed Myth Drannor with its fall, and it was the culminating event of another novel), or a rather weird use of the Faerzress to expalain why the demons didn't roam the surface (see: http://forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=20906&whichpage=6). But, in his defense, the lore about the Faerzress had already been warped in other novels towards the end of 3e (although I guess it could be dismissed as speculation by some characters), so it's not the first time that someone changes it.

Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things.

Edited by - Irennan on 30 Oct 2016 14:39:29
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader

USA
2708 Posts

Posted - 30 Oct 2016 :  14:21:36  Show Profile Send CorellonsDevout a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I like RAS' books, but there are a lot of lore inconsistencies (or he ignores them completely). He isn't the only author to have done so from time to time (such can happen in a shared world), but those issues do stand out when I read them.

Sweet water and light laughter
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Mirtek
Senior Scribe

595 Posts

Posted - 30 Oct 2016 :  20:26:55  Show Profile Send Mirtek a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I have the impression he just dislikes the whole D&D afterlive and just ignores it as much as he can to do his own thin.
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Sothron
Acolyte

16 Posts

Posted - 16 Nov 2016 :  04:00:11  Show Profile Send Sothron a Private Message  Reply with Quote
So has Wotc finally confirmed no more novels yet?
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shoracthegold
Acolyte

USA
5 Posts

Posted - 16 Nov 2016 :  04:30:49  Show Profile Send shoracthegold a Private Message  Reply with Quote
No confirmation yet I think people are holding out hope that with the films in the pipe we will get a reboot.
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
36779 Posts

Posted - 16 Nov 2016 :  10:16:55  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
From another thread, emphasis mine...

quote:
Originally posted by Gyor


I talked to Matt Sernett who confirmed this Cat Lord is the same Cat Lord from the original MM II, the guy from the Beastlands.

I also just listened to the Gamehole panel. Races in the book were designed to be very distint racial stereotypes.

Novel line hasn't been officially ended, but they have nothing to announce at this time.




Candlekeep Forums Moderator

Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com
-- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct

I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen!
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Gareth
Seeker

United Kingdom
55 Posts

Posted - 16 Nov 2016 :  13:14:37  Show Profile Send Gareth a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I've tried to stay positive over the future of the novel line, and I still am that there is a glimmer of hope going forwards.

Granted, as far as we are aware, no new contracts have been signed, with RAS, EME, and EG's come to an end. The thing is, I still hold to the hope that the reason we have heard nothing and "they have nothing to announce at this time", is that future contracts are still in negotiation.

I could be talking out my bum, but I still have a hope, especially with next year being 30 years since the OGB, that its not all over.
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CylverSaber
Seeker

95 Posts

Posted - 17 Nov 2016 :  05:58:36  Show Profile  Visit CylverSaber's Homepage Send CylverSaber a Private Message  Reply with Quote
There isn't going to be an official announcement. There's no benefit to doing so.
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
36779 Posts

Posted - 17 Nov 2016 :  13:34:35  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by CylverSaber

There isn't going to be an official announcement. There's no benefit to doing so.



There is no benefit to not having the income from novels or from losing the IP to Ed per the original contract, either.

Candlekeep Forums Moderator

Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com
-- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct

I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen!

Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 17 Nov 2016 13:35:13
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Mirtek
Senior Scribe

595 Posts

Posted - 17 Nov 2016 :  13:52:55  Show Profile Send Mirtek a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

There is no benefit to not having the income from novels
There is. The income from whatever else they are spending the former novels effort for.

quote:
or from losing the IP to Ed per the original contract, either.

which can be avoided by fullfilling the bar minimum in their end. Would ed fight a years long lawsuit over whether one DM guild project per year is enough to meet their obligation?

I agree that There won't be an announcement. What for? They just won't publish novels and that's all. No need to state anything to anyone. It's not as if there's some novels factory they have to close down, it's just something they do vor don't.

Edited by - Mirtek on 17 Nov 2016 13:56:08
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CylverSaber
Seeker

95 Posts

Posted - 17 Nov 2016 :  18:37:15  Show Profile  Visit CylverSaber's Homepage Send CylverSaber a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I think it's far more plausible, as several have stated, that Ed is contracted for one FR product per year, rather than specifically novels. I suppose that debate will be settled if we go all of 2017 without a novel from Ed, but I'd rather be wrong.
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
36779 Posts

Posted - 17 Nov 2016 :  18:53:13  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Mirtek

quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

There is no benefit to not having the income from novels
There is. The income from whatever else they are spending the former novels effort for.


If novels are profitable, then there is no benefit to ending that profit stream. If you spend the money that would go to novels elsewhere, you're not making that profit.

On the other hand, the profit from novels could be spent elsewhere.

So again: there's no benefit to doing away with a profit.

quote:
Originally posted by Mirtek

quote:
Originally posted by Mirtek

or from losing the IP to Ed per the original contract, either.

which can be avoided by fullfilling the bar minimum in their end. Would ed fight a years long lawsuit over whether one DM guild project per year is enough to meet their obligation?


The original deal wasn't for a DM's Guild project. There wasn't even a web presence then, or even the thought of one. The original deal was for Ed to do a novel.

So if they keep that deal, then the novel line is not ended.

Here's their options: they keep publishing novels, and get a profit from that. Or they decide not to make a profit, and spend money on an easily avoidable legal battle.

Do you really think any company answerable to shareholders and wanting to stay in business is going to choose lawsuits and lost profits instead of making a profit?

Candlekeep Forums Moderator

Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com
-- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct

I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen!
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
15724 Posts

Posted - 17 Nov 2016 :  19:57:37  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
#1, what constitutes a 'novel' is debatable - it could just boil down to 'any written work'.

They could contract him to write an article a year (and maybe not even use it), and that could be construed as 'fulfilling their obligations'.

Now, we (and Ed) could argue that that may be following the letter of the agreement, but NOT the spirit of it, which is a very hazy thing in a court of law... a court of law governed by ruthless lawyers hired by very rich corporations.

So I guess what I am trying to say is that the company Ed signed a deal with was 'two companies ago', and the new one could have little to no interest in following that agreement, and they could easily get away with that (because who is going to finance an expensive legal battle for a floundering IP against insurmountable odds (in another country!) that at the end of the day, in all probability, they would lose anyway.

Now, why would they cancel something that is 'profitable'? That word is another grey area, one that changes depending on the size of the examining body. To you or my, something that makes an extra 20-30K a year is a windfall. To a small company like TSR, its part of a 'steady stream of cash', to WotC, barely chicken scratch. To a company the size of Hasbro, its completely beneath their notice, or desire to pursue. They want to stamp-out 'toys' that they can put on a shelf at Christmas, with minimal thought or effort, with no worries about 'continuity' or any other headaches of that nature, that they can 'mark up' 2000-3000% over cost. In other words, 'the quick, easy buck'. Their WotC branch has been dipping into the 'boutique' market of boardgames, which are pricey to offset their much lower sales. We'll see how long even that lasts. I think they only keep their hand in that pie because they can't stand the idea there is a niche they are not in control of (over the years they've gotten hold of thousands of brands, IPs, and small companies, just to 'shelf' them), and that others could make money on (which means less money being spent on their mass-produced drivel, in their minds).

I've worked for large corporations (for a brief period), and I see the insane short-sightedness of it all. They aren't in it 'for the long haul', they just want to know the bottom line at the end of the next fiscal quarter. And they will cut their own foot off to lower that bottom line. Hence, 4e D&D. That wasn't made for the fans, that was made to please 'the brass'. Thats about all we can expect from Hasbro from now on - just look at the complete lack of detail in current 5e products. There is NO POINT in wrapping novels around that schlock.

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 17 Nov 2016 20:02:26
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Caolin
Senior Scribe

768 Posts

Posted - 17 Nov 2016 :  23:45:57  Show Profile Send Caolin a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I've said it before on this thread. The fact that Ed has been constantly pushing his new Stormtalons setting for the past year is VERY telling. Some might read into his differently. But to me, this speaks volumes about which direction the Realms is going.....which isn't in a good direction.
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Mirtek
Senior Scribe

595 Posts

Posted - 17 Nov 2016 :  23:48:40  Show Profile Send Mirtek a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

If novels are profitable, then there is no benefit to ending that profit stream. If you spend the money that would go to novels elsewhere, you're not making that profit.

On the other hand, the profit from novels could be spent elsewhere.

So again: there's no benefit to doing away with a profit.
Being profitable is not enough, it needs to be more profitable than the alternative. If any Dollar spend on Novels yields 15 cent profit while any Dollar spend on something else yields 17 cent profit, then no Dollars will go into novels. Unless all alternatives are already at max capacity and you can't put any more Dollars into them right now.

quote:
Originally posted by Mirtek

quote:
Originally posted by Mirtek

or from losing the IP to Ed per the original contract, either.

which can be avoided by fullfilling the bar minimum in their end. Would ed fight a years long lawsuit over whether one DM guild project per year is enough to meet their obligation?

quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

The original deal wasn't for a DM's Guild project. There wasn't even a web presence then, or even the thought of one. The original deal was for Ed to do a novel.
Was it a novel or an FR supplement? And whether DM Guild would fullfill that would be a question lawyers could certainly argue in front of a court for years

quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

Do you really think any company answerable to shareholders and wanting to stay in business is going to choose lawsuits and lost profits instead of making a profit?

Especially a company answerable to shareholders needs to answer why money was spend on project X rather than the more profitable project Y
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CylverSaber
Seeker

95 Posts

Posted - 20 Nov 2016 :  19:29:02  Show Profile  Visit CylverSaber's Homepage Send CylverSaber a Private Message  Reply with Quote
What is the source of this claim that Ed is guaranteed one novel per year? I haven't seen any.
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Irennan
Great Reader

Italy
3802 Posts

Posted - 20 Nov 2016 :  19:33:33  Show Profile Send Irennan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Ed is guaranteed involvement in 1 FR product per year, not necessarily a novel. And the lore and short stories that he will publish through the DMGuild might count towards it.

It's a clause in his contract with TSR and WotC, the other one being that all that he says about the Realms is official (unless WotC says that it isn't).

Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things.

Edited by - Irennan on 20 Nov 2016 20:13:27
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CylverSaber
Seeker

95 Posts

Posted - 20 Nov 2016 :  19:56:18  Show Profile  Visit CylverSaber's Homepage Send CylverSaber a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Irennan

Ed is guaranteed involvment 1 FR product per year, not necessarily a novel. And the lore and short stories that he will publish through the DMGuild might count towards it.

It's a clause in his contract with TSR and WotC, the other one being that all that he says about the Realms is official (unless WotC says that it isn't).


That makes more sense. I don't know why people keep insisting it has to be a novel. It would make no sense for TSR to have agreed to such a contract, given that FR is primarily a game setting.
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
15724 Posts

Posted - 20 Nov 2016 :  20:40:43  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
However, they WERE heavily pushing the novel aspect of FR (and parts of the rest of their D&D line), at that time, so it may have made sense back then.

I believe the 'spirit' of the contract was for novels, but what the exact wordage of said legal document was, I could not say. Whatever that wording was, when he bagan his partnership with them, they were indeed giving him a 'novel per year'. That is no longer the case (so we are now down to the 'letter of the contract', rather than the 'spirit of').

And I actually had a conversation about exactly this subject with Ed about a year and a half ago, in a meeting. And YES, Stormtalons was meant to be - in part - a way of 'quietly slipping out the back door', should things go sour with WotC/Hasbro. I suppose I am still under NDA to discuss Stormtalons, but that was more along the lines of me asking him a personal question, so I suspect its okay.

And I still wish him and everyone else involved with that project the best of luck.

EDIT: Mayhap I worded that badly - Stormtalons was just another way of "not putting all your eggs in one basket". Thats closer to the situation. Sorry.

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 20 Nov 2016 20:44:11
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Caolin
Senior Scribe

768 Posts

Posted - 21 Nov 2016 :  06:29:47  Show Profile Send Caolin a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I think it's quite obvious what Stormtalons is. Ed has flirted with other IP now and then in the past. But this is a full blown push for another game setting. It's a real shame for Realms fans, but I'm excited for him.
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