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Kiaransalyn
Senior Scribe
United Kingdom
762 Posts |
 Posted - 13 Aug 2016 : 13:42:51
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Hi,
I've just finished reading The Empyrean Odyssey trilogy and one of the things that came to light (for me) was the overlap between Helm, Tyr and Torm. Obviously, there are differences and subtleties between the trio and, obviously, they share principles, but my question is as follows:
Do any of my fellow scribes prefer Tyr above Torm and Helm (or vice versa)?
In The Empyrean Odyssey trilogy preference of Helm versus Tyr was a theme, as was the subsequent displacement of Tyr by Torm but I wonder if anyone here has the same strong opinions?
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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3802 Posts |
Posted - 13 Aug 2016 : 13:58:45
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| I don't really like Tyr, because his followers blindly put the law above everything else (including logic and humanity, from what I've read in their writeups). However, I'm fine with him as a deity of law, judges, bureaucrats and so on. In fact, I don't mind his return post-Sundering. |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
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Bladewind
Master of Realmslore
Netherlands
1280 Posts |
Posted - 13 Aug 2016 : 14:29:20
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I have always preferred Tormtar paladins over Tyrran ones. But some of the most respected NPC's I encountered have been Tyrrans. Those with a clear mind for justice are often hard to find, but they are sorely needed, especially in a time where his myths are misconstrued into follies of epic proportions (his divine drama towards Tymora still tastes sourly).
Old Helm has always been bad-ass and boss in my mind, making his orders my personal choice of paladinhood I enjoy roleplaying the most. |
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Diffan
Great Reader
USA
4429 Posts |
Posted - 13 Aug 2016 : 17:58:15
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Really, for me it depends on mechanics. In 3.5 Tyr had access to good Domains like Retribution, Wrath, War. Cleric 5/ Ordained Champion X of Tyr is pretty awesome, especially when you can give up a your Domain power for extra Fighter feats.
I like Torm more though, thematically because I feel he does a better job of Protection and the true spirit of Knighthood. Helm, on the other hand, puts duty above ALL else which is also a pretty significant reason why he killed Mystra and had a loss of followers after the Time of Troubles. I guess I don't like Absolutes.
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11695 Posts |
Posted - 13 Aug 2016 : 21:41:50
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| My answer would depend on the character. I like Helm for the person who is less about doing what the law says and more about defending. I like Tyr for the person who is going to be the debater / politician. I like Torm for the romantic knight, but honestly I feel like Lathander can fill the same role (not portfolios, but role), except that Lathanderites are going to be more likely to break their word for the greater good. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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sfdragon
Great Reader
2285 Posts |
Posted - 13 Aug 2016 : 23:47:33
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what would expect from a lathander worshiping sandwich?? they are only as good as they taste with mustard and ketchup.....-Extriathongol Red Dragon sage mocking a Dawnlord 1209 DR
Helm, but then I tend to make most of my paladin Helmites. defense and all that |
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Edited by - sfdragon on 13 Aug 2016 23:50:32 |
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader
USA
2708 Posts |
Posted - 17 Aug 2016 : 04:57:25
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I enjoyed that trilogy, though the ending was depressing. I adored Tauran,
And I would say...Tyr. |
Sweet water and light laughter |
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The Arcanamach
Master of Realmslore
1842 Posts |
Posted - 20 Aug 2016 : 01:45:28
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| I never cared for Tyr. In fact, in my realms he's more a 'benevolent tyrant' sort of god. There's nothing really wrong with him though, I just have a preference for both Helm and Torm. Helm is my favorite of the three for his focus on Duty...even when he knows it will cost him (as it did in killing Mystra). In my Realms, his priests began defending Mystran Temples as a type of penance. Not so much because he believed he made the wrong decisions, but because he was saddened by what he was forced to do. This also had the added benefit of improving his lost stature after a time. |
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader
USA
2708 Posts |
Posted - 20 Aug 2016 : 01:52:53
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| Truth he told, I much prefer Ilmater to Tyr, Helm, or Torm |
Sweet water and light laughter |
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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3802 Posts |
Posted - 20 Aug 2016 : 02:22:37
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quote:
Originally posted by The Arcanamach
I never cared for Tyr. In fact, in my realms he's more a 'benevolent tyrant' sort of god. There's nothing really wrong with him though, I just have a preference for both Helm and Torm. Helm is my favorite of the three for his focus on Duty...even when he knows it will cost him (as it did in killing Mystra). In my Realms, his priests began defending Mystran Temples as a type of penance. Not so much because he believed he made the wrong decisions, but because he was saddened by what he was forced to do. This also had the added benefit of improving his lost stature after a time.
In my FR, Mystra never died. However, if I had to include the ToT, I'd have the Helmites do exactly what you described. |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
Edited by - Irennan on 20 Aug 2016 02:22:50 |
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froglegg
Learned Scribe
317 Posts |
Posted - 20 Aug 2016 : 14:38:15
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Of the three named I like Torm the best.
John |
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Wrigley
Senior Scribe
Czech Republic
605 Posts |
Posted - 20 Aug 2016 : 17:20:49
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| I do not like Tyr mainly because of his nordic pantheon name. I know there are other references but this one irks me the most. I personaly work without Tyr in my realms and use Torm in his place (their domains overlaps anyhow). |
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Uchiha_Arthas
Acolyte
9 Posts |
Posted - 10 Sep 2016 : 23:53:34
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Hmm, Helm and Tyr are a close tie for me, which one is first depends on my mood. Torm is a distant third.
Helm I like because in the end he just tries to do his job the best he can and he suffers the price of doing that without complaining. (In all honesty what was Mystra thinking going up against Helm like especially since she knew him fairly well?) Nevertheless you do get certain glimpses of his personality such as being kind to children and so on. Also I found in my Forgotten Realm experience, Helm is very much the Underdog of the setting. Guy gets blamed for offing Mystra when he was just doing his job, Guy gets blamed for Maztica when it was mainly his priest going mad due to the loss of his daughter, Guy looses most of his priests in Helm's Hold and suffers negative publicity due to false Helm priests spreading the wailing death...You just end up feeling for the guy. Finally I get the feeling that Sam Vimes of the Discworld would finally find a god of watchmen that he was looking for. (He claimed no god would look over watchmen as they were not flashy enough for gods).
My first experience with Tyr was in the Pools of Radiance series. I ended up walking away with fairly happy with the guy not to mention the whole trial of the sword thing actually giving a good reason why Priests don't use swords. With more reading I ended up liking Tyr a fair bit but there was a line I read somewhere about how he knows he will never achieve perfect justice in Faerun but tries anyway. That was great in my opinion.
Torm well he's the Hero and I like him but just not as much. |
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Gyor
Master of Realmslore
1621 Posts |
Posted - 11 Sep 2016 : 19:19:22
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| Honestly none, they're all find, but far from my favourites. If I had to have a favourite Lawful Good/Neutral deity, it would be Ilmater, or Gnarl that Gnomish God, Nobanion, Siamorph. |
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Gyor
Master of Realmslore
1621 Posts |
Posted - 11 Sep 2016 : 19:21:52
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| "I ended up walking away with fairly happy with the guy not to mention the whole trial of the sword thing actually giving a good reason why Priests don't use swords." Yeah I really liked that scene too. Still a crazy way to make a point. |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7969 Posts |
Posted - 11 Sep 2016 : 23:59:44
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Tyr has always been LG. Tyr's followers were always LG in 1E, although LN and NG were permitted in 2E/3E. Tyr's portfolio is Justice - it is not Law and Justice. He is known in the Realms, among other names, as "the God of Justice", "the Just God", and "the Even-Handed". He is worshipped by magistrates (judges), legates (lawyers), paladins, police, and the oppressed - those who demand or enforce justice as the highest ideal. Law without Justice turns invariably towards Tyranny - a portfolio served not by Tyr but by another deity.
Tyr was blinded and maimed during the onset of the Avatar Crisis, earning him titles such as "the Blind Overlord" and "Blind, Stupid Tyr", causing the most fanatical members of his clergy to desperately demonstrate their faith (and hope to regain communion and spells from their silent god) through increasingly zealous acts of "Blind Justice". It is from these examples (along with Volo's endlessly wry commentary) that Tyr and Tyr's clergy gained disrepute and have since been criticized for obsessively strict (and byzantine) legalism which sometimes actually impedes the administration of real justice. I have no doubt that many members (including highly-placed members) of Tyr's clergy have a bureaucratic modron-like fixation on absolute law and order or a predatory lawyer streak ready to bend and manipulate laws for expedient gains which have little to do with true justice - but these are the minority and they are likely tolerated within Tyr's Church only because they somehow still serve useful purposes. Tyr is blind but he still sees the world, Justice involves mercy and morals which outweigh blind adherence to Laws, I expect that Tyr's clergy (as a whole) are more attuned to their deity than to the popular (mis)conception of their deity. |
[/Ayrik] |
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Barastir
Master of Realmslore
Brazil
1600 Posts |
Posted - 12 Sep 2016 : 15:51:08
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quote:
Originally posted by Gyor
"I ended up walking away with fairly happy with the guy not to mention the whole trial of the sword thing actually giving a good reason why Priests don't use swords." Yeah I really liked that scene too. Still a crazy way to make a point.
I haven't read it, where can I find this specific reference? This question rises from time to time among my friends... |
"Goodness is not a natural state, but must be
fought for to be attained and maintained.
Lead by example.
Let your deeds speak your intentions.
Goodness radiated from the heart."
The Paladin's Virtues, excerpt from the "Quentin's Monograph"
(by Ed Greenwood) |
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Helm, Torm and Tyr - preference?
