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Seethyr
Senior Scribe

USA
485 Posts

Posted - 28 May 2016 :  14:06:23  Show Profile  Visit Seethyr's Homepage Send Seethyr a Private Message  Reply with Quote  Delete Topic
What race/region do you think would make for the best imitation of Lovecraft's Shadow over Innsmouth? I'm playing with the idea of surprising my players.

Here are my thoughts...

1. The Kuo-Toa look the most like the Deep Ones, but I don't know if they are quite Cthulu-esque enough...

2. The Shalarin in the Sea of Corynactis already worship Dagon, but geographically they aren't close enough to mainland Faerun to allow for an Innsmouth type town (maybe set it in Maztica?)

How could I adapt the Innsmouth look then to the town's inhabitants? Interbreeding doesn't really seem to be an option. (should I use the magical experimentation handwave?)

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dazzlerdal
Great Reader

United Kingdom
4120 Posts

Posted - 28 May 2016 :  15:31:11  Show Profile Send dazzlerdal a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Many predators mimic their prey to lure them in. Simple have the kuo-toa esque creatures look like bloated fat humans (with pallid sweaty skin). When angered or discovered this mucus coating exterior sloughs off to reveal the vicious armour plated and clawed fish demon (it also allows them to survive on land for longer periods by preventing them from drying out and allowing them to process oxygen in the air which is trapped by the mucus and filtered through their lungs).

I don't know why that sickening thought came to me just then but that's my idea

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Ayrik
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Canada
6684 Posts

Posted - 28 May 2016 :  20:43:08  Show Profile Send Ayrik a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Demons and fiends are often malformed, terrifying, and highly variable in appearance.

I'm not personally familiar with Lovecraft's Shadow over Innsmouth, but results from a quick google image search look to me more like half-preserved half-decayed worm-ridden undead than like tentacle-faced aquatic grotesqueries. Zombies, ghasts, ghouls, mummies, or perhaps some little liches might be suitable substitutions - especially if they are variant forms derived from decidedly non-human creatures.

[/Ayrik]
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dazzlerdal
Great Reader

United Kingdom
4120 Posts

Posted - 28 May 2016 :  21:05:15  Show Profile Send dazzlerdal a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Ooh, you could make the humanoid impersonators a larval stage (i.e. younger) that gather food for their elders. The elders being the massive monsters in the sea. If they dont get fed then the big monsters come to the surface and get nasty.
Of course being ultra bads the big monsters dont actually feed on food, they feed on fear. Fear from their younger kin and fear from the prey they are about to rend limb from limb and consume alive.

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hashimashadoo
Master of Realmslore

United Kingdom
1114 Posts

Posted - 29 May 2016 :  06:16:36  Show Profile  Visit hashimashadoo's Homepage  Click to see hashimashadoo's MSN Messenger address Send hashimashadoo a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Don't know if you're aware of this but Pathfinder released stats for actual Deep Ones. Paizo also differentiates between the demon prince Dagon and Father Dagon, servant of Cthulhu.

D&D and Pathfinder have both released ripoffs of Shadows over Innsmouth. The Paizo one is bigger but it uses Skum instead of deep ones (before they wrote up deep ones, they established Skum as the monsters you should use instead of them) and also throws in some mi-go and a color out of space.

When life turns it's back on you...sneak attack for extra damage.

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Baltas
Senior Scribe

Poland
574 Posts

Posted - 29 May 2016 :  15:38:30  Show Profile Send Baltas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Well, Kuo-Toa pretty much are intended to be the D&D version of Deep Ones. Their deity Blibdoolpoolp is basically a more crustacean Mother Hydra, and also worship the Demon Lord Dagon. D&D demon lord Dagon seems a blend of Father Dagon, and Cthulhu himself both in design and personality.
Curiously some Cthulhu writers theorize Father Dagon might an avatar of sorts of Cthulhu, especially that Lovecraft based partly the trinity of Cthulhu, Father Dagon, and Mother Hydra, on the Holy Trinity. Cthulhu is God the Father, Dagon is the Son of God, and Hydra is the Holy Spirit.

Batrachi might also be interesting to use, as they created Kuo-Toa, or are ancestors of them. There are also clues Batrachi also worshipped Dagon aside from Ramenos, as one of Batrachi temples, the one under the Grandfather Tree contains a portal to Dagon's Realm in the Abyss.
http://archive.wizards.com/dnd/article.asp?x=dnd/mc/mc20011031a
Batrachi also are said to have gated into the Realms horrors from Far Realm most notably Aboleths.

Surviving Batrachi might have become the first Slaad, and also might have created the Mind Flayers. To elaborate, Batrachi were originally sentinent giant octopi, before they used a ritual to transform into a form akin to Deep Ones or Bullywugs. Batrachi created Doppelgangers and Greater Doppelgangers. Greater Doppelgangers have several abilities similar to mind flayers/illithids and work sometimes with them(the Unseen). So my theory, going with the theory Mind Flayers come from the future, the Greater Doppelganger might at least in part be ancestors of the Mind Flayers. Another possibility is that Mind Flayers are another creation of Batrachi, especially that Batrachi were apparently active on many worlds. And created Doppelgangers in their image, as the Dead Three encountered Haask - a Doppelganger Batrachi, who summoned Hargut, a Far Realm horror.

As one of the first presented Greater Doppelgangers, specifically of the Unseen, Hlaavin their leader, turned out to be a Half-Ilithid, it's possible hybridization with Ilithids/Mind Flayers, makes normal doppelgangers into the greater sort, might further be an implication of a possible relation between Batrachi, Doppelgangers, and Ilithids.
The fact at least some Batrachi have abilities of Doppelgangers might be useful to you.

The Batrachi Empires spread as far south as Lopango, and Nadezhda was an empire of batrachi doppelgangers in modern-day Maztica.

[EDIT]

Also, using the Batrachi presence North, one could tie Batrachi Doppelgangers with Rocklanders, mentioned way back in Savage Frontier. Purple Rocks may be Innsmouth, and I think it even was intended to be the Realms version of it. Instead of Deep Ones and Hybrids, the village may be a front for Batrachi Doppelganger activity. Or people may still be Batrachi-Doppelganger Hybrids with humans, as Doppelganger in some versions of D&D(ie Dread Doppelgangers from Ravenloft), can have their child from every uninion be doppelgangers. So here is the description of Rocklanders, right from Savage Frontier:
"ROCKLANDERS The people of the
Purple Rocks were once a Gundarlun
colony. There are no aged here and no
children. The skins of all the people are
unusually scarred and weathered. For
Northmen, the Rocklanders are unusually
warm and friendly, though their
smiles may seem fake. They appear to
worship the usual Northman deities,
but their graven images of those gods
all show many, tentacle-like arms. Their
long ships favor squid-like figure heads."

Edited by - Baltas on 29 May 2016 19:50:54
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dazzlerdal
Great Reader

United Kingdom
4120 Posts

Posted - 29 May 2016 :  19:57:07  Show Profile Send dazzlerdal a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Purple Rocks does sound like a good candidate for a cthulhu esque adventure but the island is portrayed that way because of the Kraken Society that controls much of what happens there.

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Baltas
Senior Scribe

Poland
574 Posts

Posted - 29 May 2016 :  20:48:06  Show Profile Send Baltas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Yeah, but I think Slarkrethel could be retconned/explained as being of Batrachi descent(the original form of Batrachi, were giant Octopi) and Ascarle was suggested to have been inhabited before Sea Eves, by "Fish People", and possibly originally founded by them. This Fish People could be Batrachi. Slarkrethel was inspired after all, inspired by legends of his ancestors' past. This ancestors, could be made into Batrachi. Especially that as shapeshifter, they may quite probably had the "Breed with allmost anything" ability).

Slarkrethel could have experimented to have Batrachi revived in some way, possibly turning the population of Purple Rocks into Batrachi-Human hybrids.

Slarkrethel is the chosen of Umberlee, but this could spinned in various ways. Umberlee has her plane in the Abyss in various version of canon, including 5e, so maybe she works with Dagon, and Slarkrethel is a dual chosen.
Slarkrethel, Dagon, and Umberlee could be worshipped as a stand in for the Cthulhu, Dagon and Hydra Trinity, with Dagon(ironically) being Cthulhu here, Slarkrethel Father Dagon, and Umberlee Mother Hydra(Slarkrethel is Umberlee's consort after all).
Or Slarkrethel may have just betrayed Umberlee for Dagon, or served Dagon more all along(as Dagon was worshipped by his ancestors), only using Umberlee.

Still, even if not using Purple Rocks, I think Batrachi could be very well used for a Shadow over Innsmouth campaign in the Realms.
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Wrigley
Senior Scribe

Czech Republic
459 Posts

Posted - 30 May 2016 :  00:32:07  Show Profile  Visit Wrigley's Homepage Send Wrigley a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I would suggest a simple fishing village on Swordcoast that worship a kraken who lives nearby and using some Kuo-toa's as slaves. People there might be normal looking by day but will try to sacrifice characters at night at local inn. This might creep your players enough and they might possibly find out their hidden temple to this kraken "god". If they linger there the Kuo-Toa's will be sent to investigate and confront them.
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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore

Australia
5281 Posts

Posted - 30 May 2016 :  07:40:14  Show Profile Send George Krashos a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Seethyr

What race/region do you think would make for the best imitation of Lovecraft's Shadow over Innsmouth? I'm playing with the idea of surprising my players.

Here are my thoughts...

1. The Kuo-Toa look the most like the Deep Ones, but I don't know if they are quite Cthulu-esque enough...

2. The Shalarin in the Sea of Corynactis already worship Dagon, but geographically they aren't close enough to mainland Faerun to allow for an Innsmouth type town (maybe set it in Maztica?)

How could I adapt the Innsmouth look then to the town's inhabitants? Interbreeding doesn't really seem to be an option. (should I use the magical experimentation handwave?)




Two words: Undersea Illithids.

-- George Krashos

"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus
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LordofBones
Senior Scribe

827 Posts

Posted - 30 May 2016 :  08:09:34  Show Profile Send LordofBones a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Blibdolpoolp is actually a rather interesting deity; to her own servitor creatures, she's practically a Great Old One and utterly alien.

I mean, look at the average kuo-toa, and then look at Blibdolpoolp; about the only thing that remotely connects her to the kuo-toa is her lobster head. To the kuo-toa, she's about as alien as Cthulhu or Dagon or Shub-Niggurath would be to a human being.
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Starshade
Learned Scribe

Norway
210 Posts

Posted - 30 May 2016 :  10:12:10  Show Profile Send Starshade a Private Message  Reply with Quote
There was made a d20 Call of cthulhu rpg book, who got what you need to use D&D characters in CoC, or using CoC as an addon for D&D.
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Baltas
Senior Scribe

Poland
574 Posts

Posted - 30 May 2016 :  12:24:58  Show Profile Send Baltas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by LordofBones

Blibdolpoolp is actually a rather interesting deity; to her own servitor creatures, she's practically a Great Old One and utterly alien.

I mean, look at the average kuo-toa, and then look at Blibdolpoolp; about the only thing that remotely connects her to the kuo-toa is her lobster head. To the kuo-toa, she's about as alien as Cthulhu or Dagon or Shub-Niggurath would be to a human being.



Yup she is, Blibdoolpoolp even has Insanity in her portfolio, and her gaze at closer range, drives the lookers mad. I wonder if she was maybe one of the Great School of Sea deities, Batrachi once worshipped alongside Ramenos(Ramenos himself, curiously, appears to be inspired by the Great Old One Tsathoggua...)It's implied many of the deities of Batrachi's creations/descendants, originated among that pantheon(compare to Sarrukh and their deities being worshipped by their creations and descendants), so seeing batrachi created kou-toa, it's possible. I didn't suggest Blibdoolpoolp, only Dagon, as the Obyrith Lord allready has some canon connections to Batrachi, and is based and named after the God of Deep Ones.

Although Blibdoolpoolp might be a better deity to use, sheeing how underused she is, despite being pretty interesting. And her lobster head, is still very alien to Kou-Toa, as fish are closeer related to humans, than crusteceans. Then again, kou-toa ancetrors/creators, Batrachi started as out as inverbrates(giant octopi), so they may be closer related to Crustacean than mammals in the Realms.

Edited by - Baltas on 30 May 2016 12:55:09
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Wrigley
Senior Scribe

Czech Republic
459 Posts

Posted - 30 May 2016 :  13:25:02  Show Profile  Visit Wrigley's Homepage Send Wrigley a Private Message  Reply with Quote
In my realms I have Batrachi pantheon (Great School) made of Ramenos (bullivugs), Umberlee (krakens), Sekolah (sahuagin), Blibdoolpoolp (kuo-toa), Ilesere (Mind Flyers), Great Mother (beholders), Ghaunadaur (slimes), Eadro (merfolk, locatah)
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LordofBones
Senior Scribe

827 Posts

Posted - 30 May 2016 :  15:02:26  Show Profile Send LordofBones a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Krakens already have a racial god - Panzuriel. Umberlee is more associated with natural disasters of the waters than to aquatic creatures; if I had to thematically tie her to anything it would shark monsters, like Pathfinder's cetus.
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Green Giant
Seeker

USA
52 Posts

Posted - 30 May 2016 :  15:49:18  Show Profile Send Green Giant a Private Message  Reply with Quote
You can also check Dragon Magazine #300 - "The Minions of Darkness." Monster cultist prestige classes.

Especially, Deep Thralls (worshippers of krakens) and Shoal Servants (worshippers of kuo-toas).

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Baltas
Senior Scribe

Poland
574 Posts

Posted - 30 May 2016 :  16:05:27  Show Profile Send Baltas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by LordofBones

Krakens already have a racial god - Panzuriel. Umberlee is more associated with natural disasters of the waters than to aquatic creatures; if I had to thematically tie her to anything it would shark monsters, like Pathfinder's cetus.



Actually, in the Realms, according to Faiths and Pantheons pagw 220 Panzuriel is merelly an alias of Umberlee. This suggests Umberlee destroyed Panzuriel's Realms aspect, or subsumed/absorbed Panzuriel in the Realms.
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Wrigley
Senior Scribe

Czech Republic
459 Posts

Posted - 30 May 2016 :  16:09:02  Show Profile  Visit Wrigley's Homepage Send Wrigley a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Baltas

quote:
Originally posted by LordofBones

Krakens already have a racial god - Panzuriel. Umberlee is more associated with natural disasters of the waters than to aquatic creatures; if I had to thematically tie her to anything it would shark monsters, like Pathfinder's cetus.



Actually, in the Realms, according to Faiths and Pantheons pagw 220 Panzuriel is merelly an alias of Umberlee. This suggests Umberlee destroyed Panzuriel's Realms aspect, or subsumed/absorbed Panzuriel in the Realms.



Also there is Sekolah for shark monsters already... and there are hints that she is originaly kraken diety
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LordofBones
Senior Scribe

827 Posts

Posted - 30 May 2016 :  16:16:45  Show Profile Send LordofBones a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Baltas

quote:
Originally posted by LordofBones

Krakens already have a racial god - Panzuriel. Umberlee is more associated with natural disasters of the waters than to aquatic creatures; if I had to thematically tie her to anything it would shark monsters, like Pathfinder's cetus.



Actually, in the Realms, according to Faiths and Pantheons pagw 220 Panzuriel is merelly an alias of Umberlee. This suggests Umberlee destroyed Panzuriel's Realms aspect, or subsumed/absorbed Panzuriel in the Realms.



That's a bit difficult to believe; Panzuriel is an Intermediate Power while Umberlee's only a lesser deity.

I'd personally suggest that while Umberlee is heavily worshipped, Panzuriel's one of those old gods revered by ancient sea monsters. He's more interested in having his revenge on Deep Sashelas, while Umberlee's more a nature god. Mostly, I see Panzuriel as one of those really creepy, monstrous gods; the type that has Umberlee teaming up with Valkur and DS to restrain.
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dazzlerdal
Great Reader

United Kingdom
4120 Posts

Posted - 30 May 2016 :  20:04:28  Show Profile Send dazzlerdal a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:

Two words: Undersea Illithids.

-- George Krashos



As if the waters of toril arent bad enough.
Dont know why i had never considered these as a monster before though. A nautilus type monster or brain eating squid is an easy candidate for a new breed of mind flayer

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Ayrik
Great Reader

Canada
6684 Posts

Posted - 30 May 2016 :  20:37:08  Show Profile Send Ayrik a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Aquatic illithids would get along rather poorly with standard illithids, each viewing the other as a monstrous aberration which needs to be destroyed on sight.

But it does seem plausible, illithids could procreate through host creatures like kua-tua and sehuagin and the aquatic peoples of Seros easily enough. A large mutant four-armed sehuagin (armed with a 4h-sword or two 2h-swords?) is very bad news, one turned into an illithid is a nightmare. Aquatic giths exist, so why not aquatic illithids?

[/Ayrik]
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Baltas
Senior Scribe

Poland
574 Posts

Posted - 30 May 2016 :  21:27:58  Show Profile Send Baltas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by LordofBones

quote:
Originally posted by Baltas
Actually, in the Realms, according to Faiths and Pantheons pagw 220 Panzuriel is merelly an alias of Umberlee. This suggests Umberlee destroyed Panzuriel's Realms aspect, or subsumed/absorbed Panzuriel in the Realms.



That's a bit difficult to believe; Panzuriel is an Intermediate Power while Umberlee's only a lesser deity.

I'd personally suggest that while Umberlee is heavily worshipped, Panzuriel's one of those old gods revered by ancient sea monsters. He's more interested in having his revenge on Deep Sashelas, while Umberlee's more a nature god. Mostly, I see Panzuriel as one of those really creepy, monstrous gods; the type that has Umberlee teaming up with Valkur and DS to restrain.



Well, possibly, although the divine power levels, might not be the same in the Realms, as outside them. Mielikki and Loviatar were/are demigods outside the Realms, and Tyr is a Greater Power in the Realms, but Intermediate or Greater outside of them. And on the other hand, outside the Realms Bast was a lessser goddess, but now, even after merging with Felidae and Zandilar the Dancer, is a demigoddess, persumably due to her specific situation, and her worship being partially absorbed into that of Shar.
Umberlee's companion, Auril, was a Intermediate Goddess outside the Realms as the Queen of Air and Darkness, but in the Realms, was originally a lesser goddess, or even demigoddess(although to be fair, even in 1e, it was said Auril was significantly drained from power by Talos, if I remember right), only becoming again a Intermediate Deity in 4e.

Deep Sashelas is also a classic enemy of Umberlee in the Realms(specifically alied with Valkur against her), possibly since Araushnee's/Lolth war against Corellon, as at least Auril and Malar sided with Araushnee, and the trio(Auril, Umberlee and Malar) seem to be tied together. I think it's a possibilty Umberlee was an Saea Archfey or Kraken Primal Spirit, before becoming a deity.

It's possible Panzuriel corrupted Umberlee when she was a SeaArchfey or Kraken/Cephalopod(or just Sea) Primal Spirit, but Umberlee could turn against him later, helping to imprison him.

A possiblity I overlooked, it's possible Umberlee impersonates Panzuriel, like Mulhorand Set impersonates Sseth.

Still, in the Realms, it seems Umberlee is connected to Krakens, like Malar and Selune substitute good and evil lycantrope deities.
But opposed to them, Panzuriel might waiting to resurface...
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Seethyr
Senior Scribe

USA
485 Posts

Posted - 31 May 2016 :  03:27:27  Show Profile  Visit Seethyr's Homepage Send Seethyr a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Some awesome ideas and info here. Batrachi, Panzuriel, Umberlee...

I wonder which of those had the most to do with the krakentua. If anything could give you the feel of Cthulhu, it would be one of those things.

I honestly don't know what the answer is in the end, but a Serpent Kindoms-esque book about the batrachi could have helped a lot.


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LordofBones
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827 Posts

Posted - 31 May 2016 :  04:02:23  Show Profile Send LordofBones a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Prior to 4e, Auril and the Queen of Air and Darkness were entirely separate beings. The Queen was corrupted by the Black Diamond and is Titania's sister, Auril seems to be either a friend or daughter of Loki (they share the same Outer Planar realm).
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VikingLegion
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USA
358 Posts

Posted - 31 May 2016 :  06:04:19  Show Profile Send VikingLegion a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Seethyr

What race/region do you think would make for the best imitation of Lovecraft's Shadow over Innsmouth? I'm playing with the idea of surprising my players.



Some really interesting replies in this thread, let's see if I can add something of worth:

I'd go with a Deepspawn, mainly because it's one of my favorite D&D monsters. Either it lives in a dry cavern complex under the ocean floor or it's an aquatic adapted mutant Deepspawn. By consuming both human and kuo-toan genetic material, it is able to mix and match, creating hybrid creatures that are neither one nor the other, but rather a bit of both. So they can appear human for the most part (just as some mutant sahuagin appear as sea elves) but also have some fishy physiology, and will start to degrade/distress if left out of water for too prolonged a period of time. It completely stocks "town X" with its children, who try to emulate normal human behavior and draw more food/wealth into the town that will be curried down to the Deepspawn periodically.

If I knew how to post a picture on this forum I would totally include a Deepspawn pic right now.
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VikingLegion
Senior Scribe

USA
358 Posts

Posted - 31 May 2016 :  06:06:52  Show Profile Send VikingLegion a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by VikingLegion

quote:
Originally posted by Seethyr

What race/region do you think would make for the best imitation of Lovecraft's Shadow over Innsmouth? I'm playing with the idea of surprising my players.



Some really interesting replies in this thread, let's see if I can add something of worth:

I'd go with a Deepspawn, mainly because it's one of my favorite D&D monsters, but also because it offers a great deal of variable game play based on what the DM wants to do with it. Either it lives in a dry cavern complex under the ocean floor or it's some kind of aquatic adapted, mutant Deepspawn. By consuming both human and kuo-toan genetic material, it is able to mix and match, creating hybrid creatures that are neither one nor the other, but rather a bit of both. So they can appear human for the most part (just as some mutant sahuagin appear as sea elves) but also have some fishy physiology, and will start to degrade/distress if left out of water for too prolonged a period of time. It completely stocks "town X" with its children, who try to emulate normal human behavior (and often fail, leading to their creepy "tells" and other weird actions) and draw more food/wealth into the town that will be curried down to the Deepspawn periodically.

If I knew how to post a picture on this forum I would totally include a Deepspawn pic right now.

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