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farinal
Learned Scribe
Turkey
270 Posts |
 Posted - 15 May 2016 : 22:25:46
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even in the player's handbook it states that:
"Half orcs are greeted with a practical caution, but tielings are the subject of supernatural fear. the evil of their heritage is plainly visible in their features. and as far as most people are concerned, a tieling could very well be a devil straight from the Nine Hells. People might make warding signs as a tiefling approaches, cross the street to avoid passing near, or bar shop doors before a tiefling can enter."
so how can a race such as this be counted as among the core player races and be suggested to the players?
also the dragonborn, since with 5E their world has returned back doesn't that mean most of the dragonborn are also back? so they should have a very low number of population, no?
I don't really see the point of the tiefling to be in the core PC races since most npcs would dislike or hate or fear the PC and most of the PCs will have no reason to trust or join forces with the tiefling. it's same as making a party with a drow on the surface and start adventuring away.
any thoughts?
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 15 May 2016 : 22:43:54
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For a long time, the rules have catered to those players who ignore minor details like the fact that their PC would be attacked on sight.
A lot of players are too enamored with their kewl idea for a PC, and a lot of DMs just say "whatever" and treat even the most exotic PC races as just another half-elf or whatnot.
If I was DMing, I'd let a player play a tiefling -- but only after it was made very clear that he'd get a lot of negative reactions from NPCs and might even hamper the party in non-combat situations. |
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Adhriva
Learned Scribe
USA
147 Posts |
Posted - 15 May 2016 : 23:06:06
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The reason is simple: because they are popular with players. People often play characters that have some meaning to them, sometimes it's a very obvious insert of themselves, othertimes it's simple and subtle part of them. There is no surprise in this, without any kind of connection, we don't stay interested in playing the character session after session. The reason this is particularly important in this case comes down to the type of story modern audiences are relating to the most. We've becoming less interested in the classical heroes (Superman, Luke Skywaker, Aragorn, etc), and more interested in the heavily flawed heroes (Batman, Danny Targarian, Hellboy, etc). As an audience, there is something about these kinds of characters that's calling to alot of folks out there. They've become the 'everyman' of the modern audience - be it as a way of facing a sin, guilt, inner monster, or simply growing comfortable with ourselves and learning to love being in our own skin. There's a wide spectrum. Due to the turn-based and medium of tabletop RPGS, we have a split-second to think about things before we tell the group what our characters do - limiting the effects of having a truly flawed hero because we don't like to see ourselves fail or take intentional 'dives'. Heroes that come from races such as Drow, Teiflings, Fay'ri, Dragonborne, etc. are an easy way to mix the two concepts. They are actually classical heroes, the kind we look up to and admire, but we give them a flawed exterior and allow the world to treat them as they would of the flawed heroes sort.
If anything, I think we're going to see the trend for more and more 'misunderstood' or monstrous heroes continue and climb. We're going to see more good-aligned demons, more good-aligned drow, more good-aligned 'omg-what-is-that-thing?!' type characters until what appeals to the audience changes and the "everyman" changes with that shift. |
Professional illustrator and comic book artist.
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Edited by - Adhriva on 15 May 2016 23:09:49 |
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Rymac
Learned Scribe
USA
315 Posts |
Posted - 15 May 2016 : 23:59:36
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How far back do you want to go? Tieflings have been around since the Planescape setting, and dragonborn evolved from various dragon and half-dragon PC and NPC races. Anyone remember weredragons? Yea, it's a cultural anti-hero, outsider thing, but these ideas have been germinating at least since 2nd edition. They've just been mainstreamed into the later editions.
Just remember, the DM ultimately can decide what races are playable for his campaign. |
- Ryan |
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Diffan
Great Reader
USA
4429 Posts |
Posted - 16 May 2016 : 18:27:20
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I really dislike the idea that because a player wants to be a Tiefling or Dragonborn it's because they want to look "Kewl" or some junk. Not everyone who sees these races are either 1) completely devoid of role-play or 2) don't understand the consequences of playing such races where their heritage will be viewed as negative. As for WHY they're PC races in the Player's Handbook, because a large portion of the fan-base who took the surveys and playtested prior to 5e's launch wanted it that way? Because it adds diversity to options oft seen as trope to Toliken. Because they're fun? Take your pick.
As for Dragonborn, keep in mind that Tymanther and Returned Abeir were on Toril for quite some time. Over a century? So in that time-span it wouldn't be unimaginable that the races would be more widespread than just in their own area. I could see a larger portion along the Sword Coast having made the sea trip from Returned Abeir as well as many Dragonborn in now returned Unther/Mulhorand (ugh). |
Edited by - Diffan on 16 May 2016 18:30:55 |
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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3802 Posts |
Posted - 16 May 2016 : 18:37:22
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| What Diffan said, and because classic high fantasy is not the only kind of setting that you can set a campaign in. I guess that WotC tried to make 5e more adaptable to a variety of settings, and in different settings, different races might be more or less common. If you play a campaign set in Planescape, tieflings are not rare. If you play a campaign set in Tymather, dragonborn are common. |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
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Diffan
Great Reader
USA
4429 Posts |
Posted - 16 May 2016 : 19:10:30
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quote:
Originally posted by Rymac
Just remember, the DM ultimately can decide what races are playable for his campaign.
Yep this ^ right here is all anyone really needs to know about any particular campaign setting. It doesn't matter what books are being used, the DM ultimately sets the tone for the campaign. If they want Humans to be on the verge of extinction, then they'll be rare. If they want Elves and Halflings to be more like forest nymphs and only seen by a very seldom few, then they'll be rare. If a DM wants to cut entire races from the books and from their setting, then they should. I'd advise the players on the setting prior to starting up the game so that they can either refuse to play or if there's enough dissent, change campaigns so more people are happy.
I think too commonly the idea of "Core" or "Standard" is synonymous with "always allowed, expected" and it's not. In fact the idea that Core somehow is more important or better or should be more accessible is really a silly notion that should've died well after 3e's release. I always going into a game with the belief that all company-produced supplements are allowed and the DM should make cuts where he feels the need, especially if we're going under the assumption that most of the products produced are or should be balanced with "core" elements. It's also why I ask if anything is banned and usually have a character reviewed by the DM prior to the start of the game OR during session 0. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 16 May 2016 : 19:34:40
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quote:
Originally posted by Diffan
I really dislike the idea that because a player wants to be a Tiefling or Dragonborn it's because they want to look "Kewl" or some junk. Not everyone who sees these races are either 1) completely devoid of role-play or 2) don't understand the consequences of playing such races where their heritage will be viewed as negative. As for WHY they're PC races in the Player's Handbook, because a large portion of the fan-base who took the surveys and playtested prior to 5e's launch wanted it that way? Because it adds diversity to options oft seen as trope to Toliken. Because they're fun? Take your pick.
I didn't say it was all players that wanted to play those races -- I said it was a lot of players.
We've all seen those players. They have one character they play -- the race and class may change, but it's always the same personality and the same general tactics. Small details like the race's culture or NPC reactions are ignored. And there are too many DMs that are complicit in this.
It's certainly not a universal trait for people playing those races, or for their DMs... But I think that if more DMs actually made people play the race and not just a collection of pluses and minuses, then there would be a lot less appeal to those races. |
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Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 16 May 2016 19:36:18 |
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Lilianviaten
Senior Scribe
489 Posts |
Posted - 16 May 2016 : 19:43:28
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
For a long time, the rules have catered to those players who ignore minor details like the fact that their PC would be attacked on sight.
A lot of players are too enamored with their kewl idea for a PC, and a lot of DMs just say "whatever" and treat even the most exotic PC races as just another half-elf or whatnot.
If I was DMing, I'd let a player play a tiefling -- but only after it was made very clear that he'd get a lot of negative reactions from NPCs and might even hamper the party in non-combat situations.
But it totally depends on the location. That's where I think the novels are a great resource for how things will play out (at least sometimes).
For example, the tiefling twins in Erin Evans's books have traveled through lots of different cities and not been attacked on sight. In the Drizzt books, he was treated far better in some places than others. If you're in Silverymoon, Waterdeep, Neverwinter, and other places used to great variety, I doubt that will happen. |
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hashimashadoo
Master of Realmslore
United Kingdom
1150 Posts |
Posted - 16 May 2016 : 19:49:02
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I have a player in the game I'm currently DMing who flat-out refuses to play as a character of any race that seems too human. He'll invest in disguise skills and/or magic in order to blend in, but he's comfortable in the knowledge that behind that veneer, he's not normal.
Also seems to frequently put some work into finding a way to fly ASAP. |
When life turns it's back on you...sneak attack for extra damage.
Head admin of the FR wiki:
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 16 May 2016 : 21:08:10
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quote:
Originally posted by Lilianviaten
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
For a long time, the rules have catered to those players who ignore minor details like the fact that their PC would be attacked on sight.
A lot of players are too enamored with their kewl idea for a PC, and a lot of DMs just say "whatever" and treat even the most exotic PC races as just another half-elf or whatnot.
If I was DMing, I'd let a player play a tiefling -- but only after it was made very clear that he'd get a lot of negative reactions from NPCs and might even hamper the party in non-combat situations.
But it totally depends on the location. That's where I think the novels are a great resource for how things will play out (at least sometimes).
For example, the tiefling twins in Erin Evans's books have traveled through lots of different cities and not been attacked on sight. In the Drizzt books, he was treated far better in some places than others. If you're in Silverymoon, Waterdeep, Neverwinter, and other places used to great variety, I doubt that will happen.
True... But these larger, cosmopolitan areas like that are not the Realms entire, and they're not necessarily the rule in non-Realms settings, either. There are going to be a lot of places where drow or tieflings aren't welcome at all, or are greeted with extreme distrust.
There are many players who wouldn't bat at eye at the thought of having their drow character walk into Saerloon or Shadowdale, and many DMs that would have the townspeople act like that drow is just another elf. |
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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Rymac
Learned Scribe
USA
315 Posts |
Posted - 16 May 2016 : 22:50:53
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
There are many players who wouldn't bat at eye at the thought of having their drow character walk into Saerloon or Shadowdale, and many DMs that would have the townspeople act like that drow is just another elf.
That's fine for their campaign, but anyone with a bit of passing familiarity of Shadowdale's history would know the dale has been a hotspot for drow incursions for milenia, so most locals would have a hostile reaction to a drow they had met for the first time.
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 16 May 2016 : 23:10:25
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quote:
Originally posted by Rymac
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
There are many players who wouldn't bat at eye at the thought of having their drow character walk into Saerloon or Shadowdale, and many DMs that would have the townspeople act like that drow is just another elf.
That's fine for their campaign, but anyone with a bit of passing familiarity of Shadowdale's history would know the dale has been a hotspot for drow incursions for milenia, so most locals would have a hostile reaction to a drow they had met for the first time.
And that's why I used that example -- details like that are immaterial to some people, who are going to stick with particular racial choices because they like a published character or two, and not out of any desire to roleplay the same noncombat experiences. |
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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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Brimstone
Great Reader
USA
3286 Posts |
Posted - 17 May 2016 : 03:25:41
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I tend to play a human or dwarf.
I have seen the player that always has to play some kind of uber munchkin race/character. Those guys get boring after awhile. Let their pc show any weakness or not be as uber and kool. and it's time for another uber munchkin character... |
"These things also I have observed: that knowledge of our world is
to be nurtured like a precious flower, for it is the most precious
thing we have. Wherefore guard the word written and heed
words unwritten and set them down ere they fade . . . Learn
then, well, the arts of reading, writing, and listening true, and they
will lead you to the greatest art of all: understanding."
Alaundo of Candlekeep |
Edited by - Brimstone on 17 May 2016 03:27:19 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 17 May 2016 : 04:43:23
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I stick with humans and half-elves, myself... I've tried a dwarf on a couple of occasions, but those campaigns never lasted. I once played a cyborg in a friend's Phantasy Star-based campaign, but like all of his other campaigns, it was only a session or two.
After getting the Southlands book, I want to play a nkosi ranger. The Southlands is the Midgard campaign setting's version of Africa, and the nkosi are these cat-like people who can turn into lions. |
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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 17 May 2016 04:44:20 |
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Diffan
Great Reader
USA
4429 Posts |
Posted - 17 May 2016 : 08:16:18
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quote:
Originally posted by Rymac
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
There are many players who wouldn't bat at eye at the thought of having their drow character walk into Saerloon or Shadowdale, and many DMs that would have the townspeople act like that drow is just another elf.
That's fine for their campaign, but anyone with a bit of passing familiarity of Shadowdale's history would know the dale has been a hotspot for drow incursions for milenia, so most locals would have a hostile reaction to a drow they had met for the first time.
But there's this idea that playin that way is somehow bad or wrong. And it's not. It's different, sure but just because they're not putting the level of detail that's consistent with a particular area doesn't mean that they're powergamer munchkins or don't care about role-play. Not more so than the one guy who only plays Humans in 3.5 for just the bonus feat and extra skill points |
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TBeholder
Great Reader
2384 Posts |
Posted - 18 May 2016 : 13:39:28
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quote:
Originally posted by farinal
also the dragonborn
[...]
any thoughts?
Search "scalies" on 1d4chan.org (partially NSFW).
quote:
Originally posted by Adhriva
Heroes that come from races such as Drow, Teiflings, Fay'ri, Dragonborne, etc. are an easy way to mix the two concepts. They are actually classical heroes, the kind we look up to and admire, but we give them a flawed exterior and allow the world to treat them as they would of the flawed heroes sort.
Not buying this even as far as there being a "concept" at all, let alone mix, in vast majority of cases. Generally it is, of course, SPESHULNESS - aka Drizzt Syndrome.
quote:
Originally posted by Rymac
How far back do you want to go? Tieflings have been around since the Planescape setting,
Yup.
quote:
Yea, it's a cultural anti-hero, outsider thing, but these ideas have been germinating at least since 2nd edition. They've just been mainstreamed into the later editions.
In other words, it wasn't a big deal, but now if there's a customer, there is an attempt at catering. Even if this has nothing to do with any setting or anything at all and is all about brooming the corners for fetish fanficgames. That, ladies, gentlemen and assorted critters, where Hasbro is these days. 
quote:
Just remember, the DM ultimately can decide what races are playable for his campaign.
Amen to this. |
People never wonder How the world goes round -Helloween
And even I make no pretense Of having more than common sense -R.W.Wood
It's not good, Eric. It's a gazebo. -Ed Whitchurch |
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Tanthalas
Senior Scribe
Portugal
508 Posts |
Posted - 18 May 2016 : 20:26:58
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| Players that like to roleplay as non-standard races have fetishes? Well, that's nice I guess... |
Sir Markham pointed out, drinking another brandy. "A chap who can point at you and say 'die' has the distinct advantage". |
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Diffan
Great Reader
USA
4429 Posts |
Posted - 18 May 2016 : 23:14:10
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quote:
Originally posted by Tanthalas
Players that like to roleplay as non-standard races have fetishes? Well, that's nice I guess...
And when companies put out products and options that consumers like, well that's just pandering. That is, unless it's stuff *I like* then they're doing it right.
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11695 Posts |
Posted - 19 May 2016 : 00:58:05
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I stick with humans and half-elves, myself... I've tried a dwarf on a couple of occasions, but those campaigns never lasted. I once played a cyborg in a friend's Phantasy Star-based campaign, but like all of his other campaigns, it was only a session or two.
After getting the Southlands book, I want to play a nkosi ranger. The Southlands is the Midgard campaign setting's version of Africa, and the nkosi are these cat-like people who can turn into lions.
I need to start rereading that. My first thoughts were how well (or not well) it might be used to represent the shaar. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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TBeholder
Great Reader
2384 Posts |
Posted - 19 May 2016 : 01:11:52
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quote:
Originally posted by Tanthalas
Players that like to roleplay as non-standard races have fetishes? Well, that's nice I guess...
Pulling that one, really? Could as well say i haet them and am envious. I mean, subtle. 
quote:
Originally posted by Diffan
And when companies put out products and options that consumers like, well that's just pandering. That is, unless it's stuff *I like* then they're doing it right.
Will you insist with serious face that there's nothing eyebrow-raising in spiky chains being used even underground and being given "katanas are underpoewred in D&D" treatment? |
People never wonder How the world goes round -Helloween
And even I make no pretense Of having more than common sense -R.W.Wood
It's not good, Eric. It's a gazebo. -Ed Whitchurch |
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Entromancer
Senior Scribe
USA
388 Posts |
Posted - 19 May 2016 : 02:32:20
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| In my experience, they always say that their elf, dwarf, Halfling...even their orc...could just as well be a human and nothing was lost. To their credit, they do come up with some ways of making their tieflings and dragonborn come across as a bit more alien. |
"...the will is everything. The will to act."--Ra's Al Ghul
"Suffering builds character."--Talia Al Ghul |
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Shadowsoul
Senior Scribe
Ireland
705 Posts |
Posted - 19 May 2016 : 06:53:33
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quote:
Originally posted by Rymac
How far back do you want to go? Tieflings have been around since the Planescape setting, and dragonborn evolved from various dragon and half-dragon PC and NPC races. Anyone remember weredragons? Yea, it's a cultural anti-hero, outsider thing, but these ideas have been germinating at least since 2nd edition. They've just been mainstreamed into the later editions.
Just remember, the DM ultimately can decide what races are playable for his campaign.
Need I remind you that tieflings were also rare back in earlier editions?
There weren't whole groups of them running around. They were shoe horned as a token to the 4th edition fans or possibly Mike Mearls personal choice.
They are now presented as more common than they once were. Same goes for Dragonborn. In my opinion, this is one of the worst races ever. I loved half-dragons and I loved draconians from Dragonlance but that's it. |
“Fantasy is escapist, and that is its glory. If a soldier is imprisioned by the enemy, don't we consider it his duty to escape?. . .If we value the freedom of mind and soul, if we're partisans of liberty, then it's our plain duty to escape, and to take as many people with us as we can!”
#8213; J.R.R. Tolkien
*I endorse everything Dark Wizard says*. |
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Caolin
Senior Scribe
768 Posts |
Posted - 19 May 2016 : 07:23:48
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
A lot of players are too enamored with their kewl idea for a PC, and a lot of DMs just say "whatever" and treat even the most exotic PC races as just another half-elf or whatnot.
This right here. Part of the reason I stopped playing 5E at the local game shop was because every damn kid who joined the table had a Tiefling warlock who was dark and brooding or a Dragonborn paladin who just loved to kick ass. It got boring real quick.
This then leads to a ton of novels about Tieflings and Dragonborn. Same thing happened with Drizzt and the drow 20 years ago. |
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Rymac
Learned Scribe
USA
315 Posts |
Posted - 19 May 2016 : 07:34:48
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quote:
Originally posted by Shadowsoul
Need I remind you that tieflings were also rare back in earlier editions?
There weren't whole groups of them running around. They were shoe horned as a token to the 4th edition fans or possibly Mike Mearls personal choice.
I'm in total agreement. That's why in earlier editions they capped advancement for non-human races in most classes. Not that it mattered in the lower levels. If I could go back and change something, I would have allowed humans able to multi-class, but other races had to stick with one.
quote:
They are now presented as more common than they once were. Same goes for Dragonborn. In my opinion, this is one of the worst races ever. I loved half-dragons and I loved draconians from Dragonlance but that's it.
I remember the Dragonlance draconians (which is probably where the half-dragon/dragonborn initially started), just couldn't remember what they were called! I guess I couldn't be bothered to dig around for the few Dragonlance books I have... somewhere.
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- Ryan |
Edited by - Rymac on 19 May 2016 07:43:01 |
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sfdragon
Great Reader
2285 Posts |
Posted - 19 May 2016 : 08:30:27
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| hahahahaha..... If I ever learn to pnp and dmed a game.... no tiefling warlocks allowed, no Erin's character clones... in fact no warlocks anyway.... |
why is being a wizard like being a drow? both are likely to find a dagger in the back from a rival or one looking to further his own goals, fame and power
My FR fan fiction
Magister's GAmbit
http://steelfiredragon.deviantart.com/gallery/33539234 |
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Diffan
Great Reader
USA
4429 Posts |
Posted - 19 May 2016 : 09:48:15
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| The cool thing about this game is that DMs are encouraged to make it their own, to put in restrictions and bans and whatnot to cater to their own preferences as they see fit. But an even better part of this game, especially in later editions, is that they still created rules and options for players and DMs who wanted more options to add to the game. It's literally a win-win. |
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Entromancer
Senior Scribe
USA
388 Posts |
Posted - 19 May 2016 : 17:37:44
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| What Dragonborn novels are out, aside from a couple of RLB's Brotherhood books? |
"...the will is everything. The will to act."--Ra's Al Ghul
"Suffering builds character."--Talia Al Ghul |
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Caolin
Senior Scribe
768 Posts |
Posted - 19 May 2016 : 19:16:39
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quote:
Originally posted by Entromancer
What Dragonborn novels are out, aside from a couple of RLB's Brotherhood books?
Pretty much all of Erin M. Evans' books are centered on Tieflings and Dragonborn. Ashes of the Tyrant mostly takes place in Tymanther. |
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froglegg
Learned Scribe
317 Posts |
Posted - 20 May 2016 : 00:36:17
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quote:
Originally posted by Adhriva
The reason is simple: because they are popular with players. People often play characters that have some meaning to them, sometimes it's a very obvious insert of themselves, othertimes it's simple and subtle part of them. There is no surprise in this, without any kind of connection, we don't stay interested in playing the character session after session. The reason this is particularly important in this case comes down to the type of story modern audiences are relating to the most. We've becoming less interested in the classical heroes (Superman, Luke Skywaker, Aragorn, etc), and more interested in the heavily flawed heroes (Batman, Danny Targarian, Hellboy, etc). As an audience, there is something about these kinds of characters that's calling to alot of folks out there. They've become the 'everyman' of the modern audience - be it as a way of facing a sin, guilt, inner monster, or simply growing comfortable with ourselves and learning to love being in our own skin. There's a wide spectrum. Due to the turn-based and medium of tabletop RPGS, we have a split-second to think about things before we tell the group what our characters do - limiting the effects of having a truly flawed hero because we don't like to see ourselves fail or take intentional 'dives'. Heroes that come from races such as Drow, Teiflings, Fay'ri, Dragonborne, etc. are an easy way to mix the two concepts. They are actually classical heroes, the kind we look up to and admire, but we give them a flawed exterior and allow the world to treat them as they would of the flawed heroes sort.
If anything, I think we're going to see the trend for more and more 'misunderstood' or monstrous heroes continue and climb. We're going to see more good-aligned demons, more good-aligned drow, more good-aligned 'omg-what-is-that-thing?!' type c
I think Adhriva said just about all that needed to be said about this.
I just wonder how many times you can go to the well before it becomes old hat.
John |
Long live Alias and Dragonbait! Kate Novak and Jeff Grubb the Realms need you more then ever!
On my word as a sage nothing within these pages is false, but not all of it may prove to be true. - Elminster of Shadowdale
The Old Grey Box gets better with age! |
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TBeholder
Great Reader
2384 Posts |
Posted - 20 May 2016 : 01:34:32
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quote:
Originally posted by Shadowsoul
They are now presented as more common than they once were. Same goes for Dragonborn. In my opinion, this is one of the worst races ever. I loved half-dragons and I loved draconians from Dragonlance but that's it.
Yup. That's the difference between something existing in its rightful context (such as it is) and something thrown in for the sake of the lowest common denominator.
quote:
Originally posted by sfdragon
in fact no warlocks anyway....
Well, yeah, that's another piece of the same cake. It started at sorcerers with MommyIWannaPony magic, and it rolled downhill really fast from there. And then there was Bernstein's Shoehorn Disease.
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People never wonder How the world goes round -Helloween
And even I make no pretense Of having more than common sense -R.W.Wood
It's not good, Eric. It's a gazebo. -Ed Whitchurch |
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why are tieflings (and dragonborn) are a core race
