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hashimashadoo
Master of Realmslore
United Kingdom
1150 Posts |
 Posted - 11 May 2016 : 18:08:08
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I don't remember if it's been mentioned before but I only just noticed that in the 5e Dungeon Master's Guide, it's stated that Zehir is simply Set (of the Egyptian Pantheon, not the Mulhorandi one) renamed.
Since Neverwinter Nights 2 states that Zehir was active in the Realms before the Spellplague (and all Realms CRPGs are now Canon unless contradicted, supposedly), I'm left wondering what the relationship between Zehir and the Mulhorandi version of Set would've been like.
The Mulhorandi Set had already gone about subsuming Sseth but Zehir also desired the worship of Yuan-ti and the FRCG said that he drew his priests from the clergy of Sseth who were dissatisfied with his relative inactivity.
Or could it be that Egyptian Set and Mulhorandi Set were actually the same entity and Zehir was simply a way of getting Sseth's dissatisfied followers to continue granting prayers to him? What would Talona think of all this if she was even aware of any of it?
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Baltas
Senior Scribe
Poland
955 Posts |
Posted - 11 May 2016 : 19:41:40
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I think D&D 5e conflated here Robert Howard's Set the Serpent God from the Conan mythos, with the Egyptian Set. The Set from Conan, is in part based on Apep/Apophis, and in the Marvel comics, it was confimed Set from Conan, IS Apophis/Apep, and the younger Set(Seth/Sutekh) took on the name of the Elder God/Demon, to take is worshippers.
It's actually VERY similar to the situation in Faerun with Sseth and Mulhorandi Set.
Also, I think Zehir was preciselly stated to be based on Set the Serpent God from Conan, before Storm of Zehir was released.
Zehir got into the Realms by accident. The Expansion to Newerwinter Nights 2 Storm of Zehir, was made because Obsidian Entertaiment, misunderstood Zehir will be introduced in the Realms in 4e(he wasn't originally supposed to). Then, the production team, decided because of the expansion, to include Zehir, despite Sseth being allmost literally the same deity(Sseth, Merrshaulk and Zehir, are all based on Set the Serpent God from Conan), and it gone against the very spirit of 4e Realms, that merged or killed similar deities(ie Sehanine and Selune).
My take on Zehir, was that he was another aspect of Merrshaulk, possibly the Abeir one, sent to Realms to take over the worshippers that Mulhorandi Set stole, while impersonating Sseth.
Although it seems that in 4E, one article in Dragon or Dungeon magazine suggested Zehir and Merrshaulk are separate entities, with Merrshaulk being a demon lord now(EDIT: I maybe found it, in "The Plane Above", Merrshaulk is described as Zehir's "greatest servant", suggesting Merrshaulk is indeed a separate entity from Zehir, and most probably his Exarch. A another possibility though is that Merrshaulk is a highly independant aspect/avatar of Zehir.). Although I cannot find it now, so maybe I made a mistake or dreamed it...
Another possibility with this, is that Zehir could be Apep/Apophis, who was was as much or more of an inspiration for Set the Serpent God from Conan, than Set/Sutekh.
Curiously, Ed Greenwood in his in home, original Realms, had Set the Serpent God(from Conan) worshipped in Mulhorand. Mulhorand was there aparently more like Stygia too.
[EDIT]
To be clear, once Conan and Kull, were a CANON part of Marvel canon in the 616 universe's distant past. Now Marvel lost the Conan license, but some elements, like Set and Shuma-Gorath(who may had been originally just a name for Shub-Niggurath, as H.P. Lovecraft and Robert Howard were very close friends, with Lovecraft giving Howard all right to his work in his testament. The Conan stories might also be part of the Cthulhu verse) stayed canon, and the comic stories with Conan might still be canon, just Marvel cannot mention them 100% directly. They can use Set and Shuma-Gorath though:
http://www.marvunapp.com/Appendix2/seteldergod.htm
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Father_Set
[EDIT2]
Also, Set and Apep in mythology, were arch enemies. It was Set who protected Ra/Re from Apep, and largelly defeated the Serpent Demon. Although as Set became more of an evil god, due the influence of the Horus/Osiris/Isis cult, Apep and Set started to be conflated by even the Egyptians.
It would have sense Apep as Zehir, would want to take worshippers from Set, seeing they are arch enemies in the Egyptian mythology.
Apep also was revealed as the same as Set the Serpent God in Marvel comics adaptation of Conan, as I mentioned above. |
Edited by - Baltas on 12 May 2016 10:30:26 |
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Baltas
Senior Scribe
Poland
955 Posts |
Posted - 12 May 2016 : 11:16:12
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Apep, also had a bit of an apperance in the Realms, although a half official one.
Scott Bennie, the writter of the original Old Empires book, wrote in 2001(and revised in 2003) an unofficial expansion, with his take on what he would do with Unther, Mulhorand and Imaskar.
http://kingstears.tripod.com/downloads/OldEmpiresMay2003withbackground.pdf
Apep according to this, was known as Avnatar in the Realms, and worshipped in Raurin, to an extent Imaskar(before they forsaken all gods) and in the Imaskari survivor state, Addercurse.
Avnatar, the Great Enemy.Greater Power. Known to the Mulhorandi as the great serpent Apep, he
was an enemy of the Mulhorand pantheon in the days when Re ruled it. Avnatar had the form of a being
who was a man and a flaming snake at the same time. His symbol was the serpent, and his servants were
the blood adders and the fire adders; the blood adders spat a blinding substance that looked like blood,
while the fire adders were as hot as salamanders and spat fire. Avnatar was slain by Re several centuries
after the fall of Addercurse, and only salamanders, who still venerate him as one of their forefathers,
remember his name. Avnatar was thoroughly chaotic evil.
So if one would connect Apep to Zehir, it would give a precedence on some previous activity on Toril. |
Edited by - Baltas on 12 May 2016 11:24:58 |
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6353 Posts |
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Baltas
Senior Scribe
Poland
955 Posts |
Posted - 12 May 2016 : 12:36:09
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Yeah, Scott's stuff is quite nice, especially that in 5E Gilgeam returned, and this unoficial expansion, provides some development for the God-Tyrant of Unther(he becomes less evil, possiby moving a bit in direction of Lawful Neutral or True Neutral).
Also, I wonder about the Addercurse/Raurin/Imaskari God Suleo:
Suleo, Mountainfist. Greater Power. The king of mountain, storm, avalanche, and earthquake (he has a
large portfolio) was seen as an aloof uncaring god. Suleo is said to have been so offended by the evil of
humanity that he built the Pillarmount so he could rise above their concerns. Suleo's shrines are built
deep in the earth, and are said to be filled with riches to placate his wrath. His symbol is a
thundercrowned mountainpeak. Suleo was Lawful Neutral. Suleo has long been forgotten.
Suleo, resembles quite Enlil/Ellil of Mesopotamian Gods. Both are asociated with Mountains(Enlil's main title was Kur-Gal, literally meaning "The Great Mountain"), Are Storm Gods, are uncarring, and easily offended by humanity's evil(Enlil was so offended by man's evil in fact, he sent various cataclysms to extinguish humanity, ending in the Great Deluge).
The gods of Unther, were also described as uncarring.
Seeing how Avnatar is an aspect of Apep, I wonder if it's possible Suleo, was the Faereunian aspect of Enlil(of the Sumerian Pantheon), or Ellil(of the Babylonian pantheon), while the Enlil in Unther, was the opposite(ie if Suleo was the Babylonian Ellil, then Unther Enlil would be from the Sumerian pantheon, and if Suleo was the Sumerian Enlil, then the Enlil in Unther would be of the Babylonian pantheon.).
I wonder if Imaskari before going godless, maybe did worship gods from Mesopotamian and Egyptian patheons. But those gods, were either uncarring and increadibly harsh(Suleo/Enlil) or outright cruell and sadistic(Avnatar/Apep/Zehir?). This could mean abducting Mulan slaves, could in part be revenge on thier old uncarring gods. |
Edited by - Baltas on 12 May 2016 12:45:27 |
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6353 Posts |
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6353 Posts |
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Baltas
Senior Scribe
Poland
955 Posts |
Posted - 12 May 2016 : 21:41:12
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| Yeah, the Tanray do contradic a bit of canon lore, but I think it's because Scott Bennie planned it for some time, even before canon stuff contradicting it appeared. |
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Baltas
Senior Scribe
Poland
955 Posts |
Posted - 13 May 2016 : 10:51:40
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Also, let's return to Zehir. Do you, fellow scribes, think Zehir might be Apep, who came to one up Set? Again, in Egyptian mythos, Set and Apep are actualy hated enemies.
Again, Set the Serpent God/Father Set of Conan, is basically Apep(in Marvel Comics, he even fights with Atum-Ra), and I think the authors of 5e, conflated/misidentified the Egyptian Set, with Father Set from Conan(who is basically Apep).
And I think that during the production of 4e, it was said specifically Zehir is basically meant to be Father Set from Conan.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Father_Set
http://www.marvunapp.com/Appendix2/seteldergod.htm
I especially curious what hashimashadoo thinks of this.
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Edited by - Baltas on 13 May 2016 10:52:28 |
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LordofBones
Master of Realmslore
1486 Posts |
Posted - 13 May 2016 : 12:59:43
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No.
Unfortunately, D&D makes the strange decision to place important deities like Sebek and Apep at the very bottom of the deific totem pole. I'd suggest that Apep isn't a god; he's something closer to an Elder Evil or even how that one Pathfinder setting about the Norse treats Jormungandr.
Set in Conan is actually Yig, IIRC. Set doesn't actually exist.
My view: Zehir is an interloper god, a power who tried to usurp Merrshaulk and almost succeeded. Now he flees the World Serpent's fury, offering his services to other gods of evil and whipping his worshipers in a frenzy to gain more strength and more power before Merrshaulk finds him and devours him. Meanwhile, his attempts to ally with Apep have earned the undying loathing of Set. |
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Baltas
Senior Scribe
Poland
955 Posts |
Posted - 13 May 2016 : 13:21:15
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Well, you are aware Yig is essentially an Elder Evil, and also probably meant to be Apep(among other serpentine deities, like oddly Quetzalcoatl, who was actually very nice).
Again, in Conan Marvel comics, Father Set IS identified as Apep.
Set/Seth the younger(Aka originally Sutekh/Setech) in Marvel comics took the name Set for himself, to usurp Father Set's worshippers.
Apocalype(En Sabah Nur), also did take on Set's name, as well as took another of Set's names, - Apocalypse(yes it ws originay one of Father Set's names in Marvel canon).
It was comented that Robert Howard's Father Set is Apep, Howard just took gave him Set's name, as Set sounded more serpentine. H.P. Lovecraft probably based Yig of Father Set, and Yig probably in adoption of Father Set in Lovecraft's larger mythos by him.
In Scott Bennie's(aka the Creator of Mulan deities as we know them, and writter of the original "Old Empires" sourcebook) apocryphal stuff, Apep was at least in a distant past a Greater Deity in Faerun, known as Avnatar.
[EDIT]
Also, as I wrote above, it, in "The Plane Above", Merrshaulk is described as Zehir's "greatest servant". Again it's Points of Light verse version, but it's still implied as possible in Faerun, unless other, Realms specific material contradict it.
So let's go with such theory then, Zehir is Yig/Father Set(renamed, just like probably Shothotugg is the same as Azathoth), who had some aaperances in the D&D multiverse(Dragon Magazine #12, Cthulhu D20 from early 2000's, and the official Conan D&D adventures), especially that Zehir in Storm of Zehir has feathers around his eyes, and the Herald if Zehir had an Aztec looking headress, this probably being a references to Yig being also identified with Quetzalcoatl. Zehir/Father Set/Yig might also be Apep, but not necessarily.
Zehir/Yig/Father Set might be a Far Realm entity that in increadibly distant past corrupted Merrshaulk, and when Zehir finally enters a world/Crystal Sphere, Merrshaulk begrudgingly serves Zehir.
Sseth/Merrshaulk, summoned Zehir, as he felt Set subsuming his worshippers, would drain him, and kill him. Toril Crystal Sphere, could be weakened even before the Spellplague, by the Time of Troubles, and actions of Shar and her serants/worshippers, enabling Zehir's entry(from the Far Realm?). |
Edited by - Baltas on 13 May 2016 18:38:08 |
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sfdragon
Great Reader
2285 Posts |
Posted - 19 May 2016 : 08:33:53
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quote:
Originally posted by Baltas
snip
Zehir got into the Realms by accident. The Expansion to Newerwinter Nights 2 Storm of Zehir, was made because Obsidian Entertaiment, misunderstood Zehir will be introduced in the Realms in 4e(he wasn't originally supposed to). Then, the production team, decided because of the expansion, to include Zehir, despite Sseth being allmost literally the same deity(Sseth, Merrshaulk and Zehir, are all based on Set the Serpent God from Conan), and it gone against the very spirit of 4e Realms, that merged or killed similar deities(ie Sehanine and Selune).
snip
my understanding from the nwn2 forums at the time was that they were going to use sseth.. whatever its name is, not zehir but there was a failure to communication between them and wotc with wotc rep forgetting that nwn2 was infact a 3.x game and not a 4e one.... |
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My FR fan fiction
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http://steelfiredragon.deviantart.com/gallery/33539234 |
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Baltas
Senior Scribe
Poland
955 Posts |
Posted - 19 May 2016 : 12:22:36
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Interesting, really interesting. Again, it has sense, as essentially, Zehir and Sseth are the same deity(ie both Based on Father Set/Yig).
Although I though to compromise various sources, ie the Plane Above were Merrshaulk/Ssseth serves Zehir as his greatest servant, I though that Zehir could be a Far Realm being that corrupted Merrshaulk(a aspect of the World Serpent) in increadibly distant past.
I have here Zehir as coming from the Far Realm, as Yig/Father Set was a Great Old One.
This could be similar situation were Shar corrupted Bast/Sharess, only more succesful. Or maybe more like Venger and the Nameless One from the D&D cartoon, were the Nameless One corrupted Venger, but Venger didn't summon his master, because he alone wanted to rule the world.
This could be the situation with Sseth, until Mulhorandi Set imprisoned him, and stole his worship, which would kill Sseth, so Sseth, desparate to survive, called out for help to his corrupter - Zehir.
Of course, this just my explanation.
[EDIT]
Also, sorry for repeating over my explanation/theory, but I felt the need to elaborate on how I came to it, and explain my foundations for it. |
Edited by - Baltas on 19 May 2016 19:29:54 |
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Gyor
Master of Realmslore
1621 Posts |
Posted - 30 Nov 2016 : 19:53:20
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| Given that Set has returned along with the rest of the Mulhorandi Pantheon, perhaps he was just hiding in the form of Zehir. |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 30 Nov 2016 : 20:35:20
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I haven't read through the responses of others (yet), but here's what I figure - Set was ALWAYS around (so was Baast, under other guises). Set is just one aspect of the World serpent that really 'took off' on his own.
When the Mulan pantheon (a conjoined pantheon of three others... really only two, but thats another story) came into Realmspace they were greatly diminished from their great Wheel (Earth) powers - they were merely a single (autonomous) avatar that was allowed to enter, and if they wanted to be more (a full god), they'd have to work on that themselves (which most of them did). I figure a single avatar (DvR 1) is akin to a demigod/exarch in power.
Fast forward to the Orcgate Wars and the Orc pantheon enters Realmspace. Now this is where it gets tricky - we have evidence THAT pantheon was already there, albeit maybe in just Gruumsh. So perhaps something similar had happened with them in the distant past, and most of their avatars were killed-off by other FR deities. Once the OrcGate was opened, the actual gods (not just their manifestation) came through, and were MUCH more powerful than most of the Mulan pantheon, and killed them. Now, a lot of this ties into my theories that (multi-spheric) deities go through a 'probationary period' when they first come to Toril - that all interloper gods must come over as a single Avatar/manifestation and then fight for their survival. Its a great way of giving everyone a chance, but 'thinning the herd' in the process (because Ao is just cool like that).
Then the ToT happens and a LOT of stuff gets 'reset' - deities that had been comatose or somehow imprisoned were suddenly freed/awakened. This was actually 'Phase 1' of Shar's plan, BTW - phase 2 (the 'end game') was the Spellplague. Basically, the Spellplague was where the GUI of Realmspace collapsed (Ao got the 'blue screen of death'). All that 'code' he - and Mystra/mystryl, and whoever else - embedded in Realmspace (that 'writing' on the crystal sphere itself?) crashed... HARD. All that was left was some old DOS laying around (the basic 'program' of all crystal spheres, before a 'ruleset' overwrites it).
No rules for a hundred years (apparently thats how long it takes Ao to 'reboot the system'). 4e was basically him just 'loading the code' (you have to update all those persnickity drivers, ya know), and 5e was when we finally got our lovely wallpaper and icons back (the old 1e/2e style geography). The maps = the GUI of The Realms.
But what about Zehir you ask? Easy-peasy - thats just one name CORE Set goes by. Set is primal - he's been around 'since the beginning'. Asmodeus was probably a disciple/spy of his at one point. So the rules come crashing down post-3e, and in rushes all the ACTUAL multi-spheric powers, no longer constrained by the GUI (Aos' rules), and we get Zehir (Set's core archtype). He's then a planet-wide, 'big bad'. Then 5e finally boots up (The Sundering: pt. II), he gets 'flushed out' by the code (anti-virus?), and the 'set' avatar/manifestation is reinstated as the primary 'serpent god' for Faerūn.
Thats my story and I'm sticking to it.  |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Gyor
Master of Realmslore
1621 Posts |
Posted - 30 Nov 2016 : 23:45:04
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The frustrating thing is that there is so very little info on what happened during the Sundering, Zehir isn't listed, Set is mentioned as Mulhorandi God, but the Mulhorandi Pantheon isn't detailed like the rest, they only mostly get a side bar in the SCAG.
Between what's in the SCAG, the tiny bits in Ashes of the Tyrant and Devil You Know, we know abit of what happened,but not enough for real clarity. |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 01 Dec 2016 : 00:03:38
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We are supposed to 'fill in the blanks' ourselves. They don't want to write any lore that may upset one part of the fanbase or another, so they leave it all up in the air (so whatever edition you're using, its all good).
And like I said, I don't mind having both Zehir and Set in the Realms - I just consider them two aspects of the same god. Zehir is the more primal one, while Set is more refined (having spent a few milenia with the Pharonic pantheon - "he learned some table manners").
As for Asmodeus (whom I mentioned above), he is sometimes referred to as 'the old serpent', or just 'the serpent'. I wouldn't doubt that at some point he absorbed an aspect (avatar) of the World Serpent himself - maybe Zehir offered him a 'shard' of his power, hoping to later use it to take control of Asmodeus, like we've seen between other gods, like Shar/Baast, and Bane/Xvim (I'm expecting a Wooly sighting at any moment!) However, Asmodeus is a tricky git, and managed to somehow exert dominance over the shard/avatar he was given.
Maybe he collects these things, like he did with Azuth. Maybe he's got a whole closet full of deity shards somewhere.  |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 01 Dec 2016 00:05:20 |
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Gyor
Master of Realmslore
1621 Posts |
Posted - 13 Dec 2016 : 16:43:48
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| I could see an alliance between Set and Asmodeus, I don't think they the same deity, the old serpent thing is a metaphor I think, but as I said I could see Asmodeus offering Set some support, the way that Grazzt offered to Gilgamesh. |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 13 Dec 2016 : 18:29:05
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Zehir could possibly be an aspect of Asmodeus - his 'Old serpent' aspect. I don't love it (since Asmodeus isn't an actual reptile...I think), but it makes a lot of sense in light of the late-3e/4e lore regarding what Happened in the cosmology - that Asmodeus became divine. Now, everyone knows Asmodeus is a douche, so if he suddenly attained godhood, it would be in his interest to infiltrate the Realms (and other settings) via aliases.
And at the same time that situation happened, Zehir showed up... |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 13 Dec 2016 18:29:32 |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11701 Posts |
Posted - 13 Dec 2016 : 22:59:13
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Zehir could possibly be an aspect of Asmodeus - his 'Old serpent' aspect. I don't love it (since Asmodeus isn't an actual reptile...I think), but it makes a lot of sense in light of the late-3e/4e lore regarding what Happened in the cosmology - that Asmodeus became divine. Now, everyone knows Asmodeus is a douche, so if he suddenly attained godhood, it would be in his interest to infiltrate the Realms (and other settings) via aliases.
And at the same time that situation happened, Zehir showed up...
Hmmm, that's an interesting aspect to make Asmodeus of more interest to me. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Another thread regarding Zehir
