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lsls
Acolyte
34 Posts |
 Posted - 05 May 2016 : 02:21:41
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Dragon Magazine 367(page 61) described Artus Cimber is Auril's Chosen/Exarch.
AFAIK, Artus was a harper and his alignment was chaotic good.
My question is how and when he became the Chosen of an evil goddess?
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Edited by - lsls on 05 May 2016 02:23:10
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Seethyr
Master of Realmslore
USA
1151 Posts |
Posted - 05 May 2016 : 03:02:16
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| I don't think it's necessary for you choose a god to become Chosen. I haven't seen the article, does it mention anything about Artus' reaction to being Chosen? |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36781 Posts |
Posted - 05 May 2016 : 03:28:28
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From the referenced source in the first post:
quote:
Chosen invested with a portion of the Frostmaiden’s divinity, Auril’s exarchs include The Ice Queen, Iyraclea and Artus Cimber. Iyraclea is charged with ferreting out Akadi’s spies within Auril’s
realm, while Artus spends most of his time in human guise among the mortals of Toril.
I thought it was odd, myself. Yes, he's got the Ring of Winter and does a lot with it, but I would expect that a Chosen would be advancing the cause of their patron deity. And as a (literal) good guy who used the Ring's power for noble causes, he doesn't seem the type that would do anything for Auril... Unless something radically changed for him, and I'm not aware of anything happening. The loss of Mezro could have pushed him over the edge, but I'd expect it would take more than that to push him to evil.
One of the things Artus learned in the book was that the Ring of Winter did what you wanted it to, if you used it for selfless purposes, but would get out of control if you used it selfishly. If Kaverin Ebonhand had survived (or somehow came back from the dead) and got his hands on the Ring, he would be a much more likely candidate for a Chosen of Auril. |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11704 Posts |
Posted - 05 May 2016 : 12:54:59
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
From the referenced source in the first post:
quote:
Chosen invested with a portion of the Frostmaiden’s divinity, Auril’s exarchs include The Ice Queen, Iyraclea and Artus Cimber. Iyraclea is charged with ferreting out Akadi’s spies within Auril’s
realm, while Artus spends most of his time in human guise among the mortals of Toril.
I thought it was odd, myself. Yes, he's got the Ring of Winter and does a lot with it, but I would expect that a Chosen would be advancing the cause of their patron deity. And as a (literal) good guy who used the Ring's power for noble causes, he doesn't seem the type that would do anything for Auril... Unless something radically changed for him, and I'm not aware of anything happening. The loss of Mezro could have pushed him over the edge, but I'd expect it would take more than that to push him to evil.
One of the things Artus learned in the book was that the Ring of Winter did what you wanted it to, if you used it for selfless purposes, but would get out of control if you used it selfishly. If Kaverin Ebonhand had survived (or somehow came back from the dead) and got his hands on the Ring, he would be a much more likely candidate for a Chosen of Auril.
so maybe the ring started corrupting him in later years? I honestly don't recall the storyline of that novel, other than that it was down in Chult and there was a city of Mezro. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36781 Posts |
Posted - 05 May 2016 : 14:32:47
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In my opinion, aside from Elaine's books and Masquerade, Ring of Winter was the best of the Harpers novels.
I also liked the minor connection to Crusade, by the same author. |
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Seravin
Master of Realmslore
Canada
1266 Posts |
Posted - 05 May 2016 : 15:07:36
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There was a lot about the Ring of Winter being cursed, before the Harper book...Cyric and Kelemvor searched for it before becoming gods. And the ring is tied to tragedy. It is entirely plausible that Artus (who was from a rogue family) got seduced by its power over time, even if in subtle ways. The whole thing of the ring is that it can twist your intents to the worst possible outcome if they are not benevolent. And yes, losing Menzo and his family/wife could have pushed him over?
How does the article describe his state? |
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hashimashadoo
Master of Realmslore
United Kingdom
1150 Posts |
Posted - 05 May 2016 : 15:52:08
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Wooly's quote is literally all the article says - that he's an exarch in human form walking around on Toril.
I should point out however, that 4e made a lot of entities subservient to deities whom they would otherwise despise. With that in mind, I think it's plausible that Artus is a reluctant servant of the Frostmaiden. |
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Edited by - hashimashadoo on 05 May 2016 15:56:34 |
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Seravin
Master of Realmslore
Canada
1266 Posts |
Posted - 05 May 2016 : 15:59:47
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| Ah sorry re-read. "in human guise"...but he's born a human and was immortal through the ring. That is so weird. Another thing from 4th edition I can't get on board with. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36781 Posts |
Posted - 05 May 2016 : 16:00:52
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Given that the Ring only functioned properly if you were using it for noble intentions, I doubt it would corrupt its wearer.
I don't believe it was stated that the barae were lost with Mezro... And Artus had already had a rough life before getting the ring, and stayed good. I think he could take a lot more than surviving the equivalent of a natural disaster before going over to the Dark Side, cookies or no. |
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Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 05 May 2016 16:01:26 |
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Rymac
Learned Scribe
USA
315 Posts |
Posted - 05 May 2016 : 21:37:01
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quote:
Originally posted by Seravin
Ah sorry re-read. "in human guise"...but he's born a human and was immortal through the ring. That is so weird. Another thing from 4th edition I can't get on board with.
In the days of 2e, the Ring of Winter had an artifact write-up in Volo's Guide to All Things Magical. It's incredibly powerful, granting agelessness as a kind of immortality to the ring wearer. (Technically, the wearer of the ring could still die a violent death.) Not to mention the combat abilities...
Given the ring's level of power, maybe (and I'm just speculating) the Ring of Winter is the physical embodiment of the "good" aspects of winter and cold that Auril doesn't bother herself with. Which is why the ring's powers need to be wielded for good/noble reasons. |
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Brimstone
Great Reader
USA
3286 Posts |
Posted - 05 May 2016 : 21:59:23
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| Didn't Brian R James give some details on Artus and what happened to him? |
"These things also I have observed: that knowledge of our world is
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36781 Posts |
Posted - 05 May 2016 : 22:41:47
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quote:
Originally posted by Brimstone
Didn't Brian R James give some details on Artus and what happened to him?
If so, not in the referenced article. |
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Brimstone
Great Reader
USA
3286 Posts |
Posted - 05 May 2016 : 22:49:11
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Brimstone
Didn't Brian R James give some details on Artus and what happened to him?
If so, not in the referenced article.
I think it was here.
I could be wrong... |
"These things also I have observed: that knowledge of our world is
to be nurtured like a precious flower, for it is the most precious
thing we have. Wherefore guard the word written and heed
words unwritten and set them down ere they fade . . . Learn
then, well, the arts of reading, writing, and listening true, and they
will lead you to the greatest art of all: understanding."
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Brian R. James
Forgotten Realms Game Designer
USA
1098 Posts |
Posted - 06 May 2016 : 22:45:19
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| In the early years after the Spellplague there was a celestial war known as the Stormstar Requiem. During that divine conflict, Auril was freed by Silvanus from the influence of a sinister artifact. Over the last century her once icy demeanor has warmed considerably, and she now entertains the notion of reclaiming her mantle on the Seelie Court as the Frost Sprite Queen. Auril’s courting of Artus Cimber as one of her chosen reflects that changing world view. |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11704 Posts |
Posted - 06 May 2016 : 23:43:52
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quote:
Originally posted by Brian R. James
In the early years after the Spellplague there was a celestial war known as the Stormstar Requiem. During that divine conflict, Auril was freed by Silvanus from the influence of a sinister artifact. Over the last century her once icy demeanor has warmed considerably, and she now entertains the notion of reclaiming her mantle on the Seelie Court as the Frost Sprite Queen. Auril’s courting of Artus Cimber as one of her chosen reflects that changing world view.
I was thinking something along those lines this morning (that perhaps this artifact dates back to when she was Aurilandur).
Also, along those lines, I half wonder if some of the other Faerunian deities didn't actually start off with links to the fey (Leira and Nimbral when you actually read about Nimbral sounds very fey.... the depiction of Beshaba as a horned goddess, mischievous, bestowing bad luck could very much be fey ....). |
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Brimstone
Great Reader
USA
3286 Posts |
Posted - 07 May 2016 : 04:34:24
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quote:
Originally posted by Brian R. James
In the early years after the Spellplague there was a celestial war known as the Stormstar Requiem. During that divine conflict, Auril was freed by Silvanus from the influence of a sinister artifact. Over the last century her once icy demeanor has warmed considerably, and she now entertains the notion of reclaiming her mantle on the Seelie Court as the Frost Sprite Queen. Auril’s courting of Artus Cimber as one of her chosen reflects that changing world view.
I knew I wasn't crazy... |
"These things also I have observed: that knowledge of our world is
to be nurtured like a precious flower, for it is the most precious
thing we have. Wherefore guard the word written and heed
words unwritten and set them down ere they fade . . . Learn
then, well, the arts of reading, writing, and listening true, and they
will lead you to the greatest art of all: understanding."
Alaundo of Candlekeep |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36781 Posts |
Posted - 16 May 2016 : 03:07:07
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quote:
Originally posted by Brian R. James
In the early years after the Spellplague there was a celestial war known as the Stormstar Requiem. During that divine conflict, Auril was freed by Silvanus from the influence of a sinister artifact. Over the last century her once icy demeanor has warmed considerably, and she now entertains the notion of reclaiming her mantle on the Seelie Court as the Frost Sprite Queen. Auril’s courting of Artus Cimber as one of her chosen reflects that changing world view.
Is this a recent thing? I ask because I just checked the SCAG, and she's still listed as NE in that one. |
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Baltas
Senior Scribe
Poland
955 Posts |
Posted - 16 May 2016 : 08:47:05
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I guess Wooly, that now Auril is just normally Neutral Evil, like your common evil person would be, but previously, when under the Dark God's/Tharizdun's gem influence, she was heartlessly and monstrously evil.
So Auril might be now evil, like Mask once was.
Or to compare, now she is Vhaeraun, and previously she was Lolth in terms of kilonazis of evil. |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11704 Posts |
Posted - 18 May 2016 : 01:02:39
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Brian R. James
In the early years after the Spellplague there was a celestial war known as the Stormstar Requiem. During that divine conflict, Auril was freed by Silvanus from the influence of a sinister artifact. Over the last century her once icy demeanor has warmed considerably, and she now entertains the notion of reclaiming her mantle on the Seelie Court as the Frost Sprite Queen. Auril’s courting of Artus Cimber as one of her chosen reflects that changing world view.
Is this a recent thing? I ask because I just checked the SCAG, and she's still listed as NE in that one.
No, his article that he wrote in either dungeon or dragon in 4e is the reference he's pulling from. Its also where it was revealed that Auril and the Queen of Air and Darkness were the same being (the black gem that affected the Queen of Air and Darkness was the sinister artifact). The 5e state of affairs doesn't make mention of this at all. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36781 Posts |
Posted - 18 May 2016 : 01:16:11
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quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Brian R. James
In the early years after the Spellplague there was a celestial war known as the Stormstar Requiem. During that divine conflict, Auril was freed by Silvanus from the influence of a sinister artifact. Over the last century her once icy demeanor has warmed considerably, and she now entertains the notion of reclaiming her mantle on the Seelie Court as the Frost Sprite Queen. Auril’s courting of Artus Cimber as one of her chosen reflects that changing world view.
Is this a recent thing? I ask because I just checked the SCAG, and she's still listed as NE in that one.
No, his article that he wrote in either dungeon or dragon in 4e is the reference he's pulling from. Its also where it was revealed that Auril and the Queen of Air and Darkness were the same being (the black gem that affected the Queen of Air and Darkness was the sinister artifact). The 5e state of affairs doesn't make mention of this at all.
That's why I was asking -- I want to know if Auril's transitioning away from being evil is something that has happened recently, in the current Realms. If it's just been in the last couple of years or so, and Artus just entered her service, that would explain (in-setting) why she's still NE in the SCAG. |
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Baltas
Senior Scribe
Poland
955 Posts |
Posted - 18 May 2016 : 12:05:27
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
That's why I was asking -- I want to know if Auril's transitioning away from being evil is something that has happened recently, in the current Realms. If it's just been in the last couple of years or so, and Artus just entered her service, that would explain (in-setting) why she's still NE in the SCAG.
Well, Wooly, as I wrote before, it's also possible Auril is now NE without being increadibly evil. I have a take there are various levels of evil, especially between being evil, and still at least care about others, and bottom end being a Complete Monster.
I think that before being released from the Black Gem, Auril was more a Complete Monster, but now she closer to the 'upper' levels of evil, rather the bottom ones.
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
No, his article that he wrote in either dungeon or dragon in 4e is the reference he's pulling from. Its also where it was revealed that Auril and the Queen of Air and Darkness were the same being (the black gem that affected the Queen of Air and Darkness was the sinister artifact). The 5e state of affairs doesn't make mention of this at all.
It would be sad if they dropped the Auril and the Queen of Air and Darkness fusion, it was one conflation that really worked. After all evil Faeries in folklore and stories, were often asociated with winter and cold. This also a interesting character develooment for Auril/Queen of Air and Darkness, especially seeing both are pretty underused. |
Edited by - Baltas on 18 May 2016 12:09:47 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36781 Posts |
Posted - 18 May 2016 : 13:47:26
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quote:
Originally posted by Baltas
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
That's why I was asking -- I want to know if Auril's transitioning away from being evil is something that has happened recently, in the current Realms. If it's just been in the last couple of years or so, and Artus just entered her service, that would explain (in-setting) why she's still NE in the SCAG.
Well, Wooly, as I wrote before, it's also possible Auril is now NE without being increadibly evil. I have a take there are various levels of evil, especially between being evil, and still at least care about others, and bottom end being a Complete Monster.
I think that before being released from the Black Gem, Auril was more a Complete Monster, but now she closer to the 'upper' levels of evil, rather the bottom ones.
Evil is still evil. We're still talking about a chaotic good person serving a neutral evil power.
Brian refers to Auril moving away from the evil ice-queen gig and having "warmed considerably." Plus, she's thinking of rejoining the Seelie Court, which is not exactly a haven for evil folks.
With that info, Artus serving her makes sense.
With her still being NE in the SCAG, having a CG Chosen does not make sense.
So I ask if her changes have been recent, in the Realms -- if she's just starting to move to being good or at least neutral, then her listed alignment could be explained by saying the changes are too recent to be widely known. If this all happened in say 1390, though, then we have bad info in the SCAG -- either Brian's changes were ignored, overlooked, or simply brushed aside.
I want to know why there is a discrepancy before deciding I have an issue with it. |
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Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 18 May 2016 13:51:24 |
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Baltas
Senior Scribe
Poland
955 Posts |
Posted - 18 May 2016 : 13:55:06
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Well, when I roleplay a evil character, it's still takes a lot of good(and "neutral") deeds, even after the character decides to reform, in order to loose the Evil Alignment
Also, seeing Artus Cimber is Chaotic Good, and the Fey Feature article on Wizards page suggests the Unseelie court's ruler's "natural"
alignment if Chaotic Neutral, I guess Chaotic Neutral might be the direction towards which Auril is moving.
http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/fey/20021213a
And again, the Unseelie court, due to Tharizdun's corruption, is horrifically evil, to point even drow seem to be scared of Unseelie Fey.
I may be a long route to become good, or even neutral, from being a monarch of something like that. |
Edited by - Baltas on 18 May 2016 13:58:05 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36781 Posts |
Posted - 18 May 2016 : 15:09:22
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I have no problem with the transition from evil to good being a rough one. But the alignment listed does not show any change at all... And I would expect that Artus would want to see some signs of change before allying himself to a power he had known as an evil one for his entire life.
The only way it makes sense is if she's only recently started her personal reformation, and the wider Realms doesn't realize it yet. |
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Brimstone
Great Reader
USA
3286 Posts |
Posted - 18 May 2016 : 15:21:51
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| Brian's changes were probably ignored, overlooked, or simply brushed aside Wooly. |
"These things also I have observed: that knowledge of our world is
to be nurtured like a precious flower, for it is the most precious
thing we have. Wherefore guard the word written and heed
words unwritten and set them down ere they fade . . . Learn
then, well, the arts of reading, writing, and listening true, and they
will lead you to the greatest art of all: understanding."
Alaundo of Candlekeep |
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Seethyr
Master of Realmslore
USA
1151 Posts |
Posted - 19 May 2016 : 00:20:17
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| Does a Chosen necessarily have to be the same (or similar) alignment to the deity that chose them? Wasn't there once speculation that Drizzt was Chosen of Lolth (due to the amazing bit of chaos he brought to the drow). Couldn't Artus be an unwilling chosen? |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36781 Posts |
Posted - 19 May 2016 : 00:50:23
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quote:
Originally posted by Seethyr
Does a Chosen necessarily have to be the same (or similar) alignment to the deity that chose them? Wasn't there once speculation that Drizzt was Chosen of Lolth (due to the amazing bit of chaos he brought to the drow). Couldn't Artus be an unwilling chosen?
The article specifically said Artus was serving Auril, and Brian's quote here says "Auril’s courting of Artus Cimber" -- that all sounds like Artus is voluntarily serving Auril, of his own free will.
I don't know of anything that says a Chosen of a deity has to be a willing servant of that deity... I prefer to think, though, that it would be a requirement; otherwise, deities can force mortals to do whatever the deity wants.
I should also think there would be a risk in having a disloyal Chosen, especially if that Chosen carries a bit of their deity's essence. Sammaster was a great example of this - he was originally loyal to Mystra, but went off the deep end and it took a lot to stop him and recover the divine essence he carried.
Even without that divine essence, a disloyal Chosen could readily abuse his or her position and do a lot of damage to their deity's church. |
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Seethyr
Master of Realmslore
USA
1151 Posts |
Posted - 19 May 2016 : 01:05:58
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Seethyr
Does a Chosen necessarily have to be the same (or similar) alignment to the deity that chose them? Wasn't there once speculation that Drizzt was Chosen of Lolth (due to the amazing bit of chaos he brought to the drow). Couldn't Artus be an unwilling chosen?
The article specifically said Artus was serving Auril, and Brian's quote here says "Auril’s courting of Artus Cimber" -- that all sounds like Artus is voluntarily serving Auril, of his own free will.
I don't know of anything that says a Chosen of a deity has to be a willing servant of that deity... I prefer to think, though, that it would be a requirement; otherwise, deities can force mortals to do whatever the deity wants.
I should also think there would be a risk in having a disloyal Chosen, especially if that Chosen carries a bit of their deity's essence. Sammaster was a great example of this - he was originally loyal to Mystra, but went off the deep end and it took a lot to stop him and recover the divine essence he carried.
Even without that divine essence, a disloyal Chosen could readily abuse his or her position and do a lot of damage to their deity's church.
I see. That makes sense. I just always thought of gods as so far beyond mortals in their cleverness that they could manipulate a mortal from ten steps ahead. I was secretly hoping that the Drizzt example had been true in fact. But yeah, the specifics about Artus are just too clear to have this be a possibility.
The Ring of Winter still remains one of my favorite Realms novels. How I wish Mr. Lowder had written a sequel! |
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Brian R. James
Forgotten Realms Game Designer
USA
1098 Posts |
Posted - 21 May 2016 : 22:58:07
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I fear Brimstone has the correct answer here Wooly. Officially, it seems, Auril is back to her evil ways in 5th-Edition. Obviously, I was going a different direction with her character, but such is the risk of designing in a shared world.
quote:
Originally posted by Brimstone
Brian's changes were probably ignored, overlooked, or simply brushed aside Wooly.
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36781 Posts |
Posted - 22 May 2016 : 02:52:31
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I was really hoping that wasn't the case... I've been tired of new designers ignoring prior lore since 3E came out.  |
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Brimstone
Great Reader
USA
3286 Posts |
Posted - 22 May 2016 : 04:31:20
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| This is one of the reasons, why I am hesitant to fully buy into the 5E Realms. I like the SCAG. There are ideas that I might homebrew into my OGB Realms. I just don't know if or when WotC will "screw the pooch" on the Realms again... |
"These things also I have observed: that knowledge of our world is
to be nurtured like a precious flower, for it is the most precious
thing we have. Wherefore guard the word written and heed
words unwritten and set them down ere they fade . . . Learn
then, well, the arts of reading, writing, and listening true, and they
will lead you to the greatest art of all: understanding."
Alaundo of Candlekeep |
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Topic |
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Artus Cimber, Chosen/Exarch of Auril?
