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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader

USA
2708 Posts

Posted - 07 Apr 2016 :  20:59:35  Show Profile Send CorellonsDevout a Private Message  Reply with Quote  Delete Topic
Finished it today, and it was a good read. Full of intrigue and face-pace. However, during the second part of the novel, I often found myself going..."wait, what?" Here is my review, as posted on Amazon

*minor spoilers*

This newest Drizzt book held my attention, but for the latter half of the book, I found myself thinking, “what the…?” I like deep, philosophical discussions, but this was just strange. Throughout the last few books, we have been led to believe that Drizzt is, if not a Chosen of, then at least favored by Mielikki, and perhaps even Lolth, though he would clearly never acknowledge the latter. But now I am truly curious where this is going, and in some aspects, find myself disappointed. Because of this curiosity, however, I find myself anticipating the next one, wondering where this is all leading.
Jarlaxle is as amazing as ever, and Valas Hune, whom I loved from WotSQ, was mentioned, but never actually made an appearance. He is referenced a lot, but rarely actually appears.

Drizzt has been a beacon for males—and perhaps a few females—who felt trapped in a world dominated by Lolthites, and they are now all rooting for him. That is great, let Drizzt be their champion (if he will), but what about Eilistraee and Vhaeraun? If it were another author, perhaps one of those two gods (or both, since by accounts they are allies in 5e) would reach out to Drizzt, but this is Salvatore, who doesn’t really care about any of that. But Eilistraee, and even Vhaeraun, have been trying to show a better way for centuries (though their followers have to be careful in a Lolth-dominated society), and suddenly it is Drizzt who gives them hope? I mean, Drizzt is awesome, don’t get me wrong, and I think it’s great he’s started something, but…

There were some other scenes that bothered me. I saw little point to the sexual tension between Catti-brie and Gromph, and the conversation between her and Penelope actually made me angry. Gromph and Catti are both above such pettiness. Perhaps it was used as a mechanism for Cat to prove her merit and put Gromph in his place, but I think it was poorly chosen and offset the story. And I won’t go into the last battle with Drizzt and the prince of demons. Oh, and of course Drizzt suddenly questioning EVERYTHING due to some apparent madness caused by the thinning of the Faezress. I mean, really? One minute he’s fine and the next “it’s all an illusion, my life is a lie.” Seriously?

In spite of these flaws, it was a good read, and I look forward to the next one. I feel that the Drizzt books are out of touch with the rest of the Realms sometimes, but I love Drizzt as a character.

Sweet water and light laughter

Aulduron
Learned Scribe

USA
343 Posts

Posted - 11 Apr 2016 :  03:16:20  Show Profile Send Aulduron a Private Message  Reply with Quote
If Meiliki were an aspect of Eilistraee it would make more sense.

I wish Bob could use Lireal, or at least mention her.

"Those with talent become wizards, Those without talent spend their lives praying for it"

-Procopio Septus
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader

USA
2708 Posts

Posted - 11 Apr 2016 :  03:29:40  Show Profile Send CorellonsDevout a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Not necessarily, since Bob has been delving more into drow society lately.

Sweet water and light laughter
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Irennan
Great Reader

Italy
3802 Posts

Posted - 11 Apr 2016 :  07:22:57  Show Profile Send Irennan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Both Eilistraee and Vhaeraun making a move would be 100% fitting, given the upheaval in Menzo, even unrelatedly to Drizzt (and while Mielikki is not an aspect of Eilistraee, they are allied deities). The Jaezred Chaulssin have also been stated to be still active there, and would undoubtly strike in such a situation (maybe even supported by Vhaeraun again), and they didn't even make an appearance :/

Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things.

Edited by - Irennan on 11 Apr 2016 07:26:39
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader

USA
2708 Posts

Posted - 11 Apr 2016 :  16:48:56  Show Profile Send CorellonsDevout a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Exactly. It's fine if Drizzt inspires other drow that there is hope, but the book treated it like he was the *only* hope, and that is not true.

Sweet water and light laughter
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Firestorm
Senior Scribe

Canada
826 Posts

Posted - 11 Apr 2016 :  17:15:02  Show Profile Send Firestorm a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Aulduron

If Meiliki were an aspect of Eilistraee it would make more sense.

I wish Bob could use Lireal, or at least mention her.


I am just happy he is using Matron Mother Shakti. The Vhaeraun traitor Priestess is perfect to use in this environment. Amazing she was still not caught since she relied on Vhaeraun to shield her from mind detection for so long

Despite her and Jarlaxle being rivals in trade, they would work very well together. She does not denigrate Males the way most do, being closer in temperament to Xorlrrin's Matron Mother. Fitting since she worships a male Drow Deity.
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Irennan
Great Reader

Italy
3802 Posts

Posted - 11 Apr 2016 :  17:22:25  Show Profile Send Irennan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Is Shakti still described as a traitor priestess (and is Vhaeraun even mentioned in the book), or is Bob using her just as a more male-friendly Lolthite?

Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things.
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader

USA
2708 Posts

Posted - 11 Apr 2016 :  17:40:33  Show Profile Send CorellonsDevout a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Neither V nor E are mentioned at all, which is why I was miffed that suddenly Drizzt is a beacon of hope for drow. I was kind of surprised to see Shakti, but no, she was not mentioned as a traitor priestess. The book didn't go into her history.

Sweet water and light laughter
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Irennan
Great Reader

Italy
3802 Posts

Posted - 11 Apr 2016 :  17:59:50  Show Profile Send Irennan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Shakti being Shakti, I think that she abandoned Vhaeraun after he was ''killed'' (or trapped in that dream in the Weave, as Ed said), but yeah... since she's Elaine's character, acknowledging her story would have been nice.

Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things.
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Aulduron
Learned Scribe

USA
343 Posts

Posted - 11 Apr 2016 :  20:54:24  Show Profile Send Aulduron a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I haven't read the books in awhile, but wasn't Shakti a traitor, traitor Priestess?

"Those with talent become wizards, Those without talent spend their lives praying for it"

-Procopio Septus
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Irennan
Great Reader

Italy
3802 Posts

Posted - 11 Apr 2016 :  21:06:11  Show Profile Send Irennan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
She accepted to be a traitor priestess just for the power, but I don't recall her ever betraying Vhaeraun. She did stuff like putting Niss'tyre (sp) in trouble with her blind rage, but it wasn't betrayal.

Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things.
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Tanthalas
Senior Scribe

Portugal
508 Posts

Posted - 17 Apr 2016 :  21:16:38  Show Profile Send Tanthalas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I liked the book, but had some issues with it:

- For starters, didn't Shade Enclave crash into Myth Drannor? How are its remnants at the edge of Anauroch? I'm not that familiar with Toril's geography but I don't think Shade could have crashed at both places at once. Seems like a clumsy oversight just to get an excuse to have Catti-Brie visit her parents.

- Not really pleased with the sexual tension between Catti-Brie and Grompth, but hopefully it ended. Was fearing that they would actually sleep together, and in the future there would be the common drama of Catti-Brie getting pregnant and subplots about who really was the father. I've read enough of those.

- I didn't really like Drizzt and Entreri going crazy in the beginning, but it ended up getting interesting by the end. I was actually surprised when Drizzt was doing his third monologue and was completely enraptured by the madness.

- Tiago's end was simply awesome.

- I really liked how Drizzt kept true to his creed that he believes what he finds true in his heart and how that doesn't necessarily mean Mielliki anymore. Never liked the edict that Catti-Brie passed down from Mielikki that all goblinoids were irredeemably evil. It's good that Drizzt has his doubts about that and the issue wasn't simply swept under a rug.

quote:
Originally posted by CorellonsDevout

Neither V nor E are mentioned at all, which is why I was miffed that suddenly Drizzt is a beacon of hope for drow.


It wasn't suddenly. Jarlaxle has been saying that for several books now.

Sir Markham pointed out, drinking another brandy. "A chap who can point at you and say 'die' has the distinct advantage".
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Irennan
Great Reader

Italy
3802 Posts

Posted - 17 Apr 2016 :  21:28:46  Show Profile Send Irennan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Tanthalas

It wasn't suddenly. Jarlaxle has been saying that for several books now.



It is sudeen, from an in-Universe PoV, and rather weird. Both Eilistraee and Vhaeraun have been helping the drow conquer their freedom for 10k+ years. A lot of drow have proved that the dark elves can forge their own path by simply choosing it, and that Lolth can't do anything about that.

Drizzt is special and unique, because he never accepted Lolth's way, rather than being brainwashed and then realizing that another path exists. He is unique because he struggled out of the Underdark, without being helped by a Secret Moondancer, or by an agent of Vhaeraun. But--that I know--he never really liked the drow, or acted to bring hope to them. Eilistraee, Vhaeraun and their people have made that their purpose, and are actually successful at it (20% of the drow being followers of E, and even more of V, according to Ed, also point to that).

That's why it sounds like a sudden change. 10k+ years of struggle and history (and drow dying for that cause) have led to nothing, but Drizzt does?

Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things.

Edited by - Irennan on 17 Apr 2016 21:30:09
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Tanthalas
Senior Scribe

Portugal
508 Posts

Posted - 17 Apr 2016 :  21:39:28  Show Profile Send Tanthalas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I'd have to go read the books again, but I'm sure that Jarlaxle has been saying that about Drizzt since the Gauntlgrym book. So I wouldn't say it's sudden at all.

Eilistraee and Vhaeraun have been dead since before the Spellplague even hit, so they weren't around when Jarlaxle started saying that. And at best they have only recently returned with the Sundering.

On the other hand, Drizzt is an actual mortal that has broke out of the Lolth-dominated society to become a renowned character in the overworld. He has even played a big part in foiling several of the Matrons plans.

I think it makes perfect sense for male drows of Menzoberranzan to look at Drizzt for inspiration than in dead gods that were defeated by Lolth.

Sir Markham pointed out, drinking another brandy. "A chap who can point at you and say 'die' has the distinct advantage".
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Irennan
Great Reader

Italy
3802 Posts

Posted - 17 Apr 2016 :  21:47:31  Show Profile Send Irennan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Tanthalas

I'd have to go read the books again, but I'm sure that Jarlaxle has been saying that about Drizzt since the Gauntlgrym book. So I wouldn't say it's sudden at all.

Eilistraee and Vhaeraun have been dead since before the Spellplague even hit, so they weren't around when Jarlaxle started saying that. And at best they have only recently returned with the Sundering.

On the other hand, Drizzt is an actual mortal that has broke out of the Lolth-dominated society to become a renowned character in the overworld. He has even played a big part in foiling several of the Matrons plans.

I think it makes perfect sense for male drows of Menzoberranzan to look at Drizzt for inspiration than in dead gods that were defeated by Lolth.



It is sudden if compared to what Eilistraee and Vhaeraun and their followers have achieved. As I've said, they have freed countless drow, have proven that there is hope, and have done that for 10k years. If the drow didn't see hope in them during 10k years of struggle, it does seem a sudden change for the drow to see hope in Drizzt over such a little time (in comparison). E's&V's return with the Sundering, their new alliance--which is huge for the drow--should be one more reason for them to be more involved, given the upheaval in Menzo. Note that I'm not saying that Drizzt can't be a symbol of hope, it's just that it is strange to see *only* him in that role, when he hasn't even really cared for that, and when there are two deities--alive by that time--that have made of that their personal goal.

Plus it's not like their followers have been staying still during their absence. Especially if you consider what Ed said about Eilistraee never being actually killed. Wouldn't her priestesses continue to fioght for their cause, or do you think that they would just drop everything (it's also possible that a number of them didn't even transform into a dark elf. Given that only ''hundreds'' were transformed, whereas 20% of all drow is a lot more than that).

There's also the fact that all drow come to *feel* Eilistraee at some point of their lives*, so it feels even odder to see her ignored.

*Because of this: ''Eilistraee sings her call to all dark elves—from the highest matron mother to the lowest male slave—sending them dreams or visions, showing them a different, better life (especially when they are close to the surface). Lolth is powerless to stop these visions, as too much interference from two goddesses could easily bring a mortal's mind to insanity. The drow definitely come to know about and "feel" the Dark Dancer at some point in their lives, but many of them either don't understand said dreams or emotions or choose to ignore, disbelieve, or reject them. Even then, while not many refuse Lolth to cleave to Eilistraee, many secretly yearn for the goddess and all that she wishes for them. In fact, it is not unusual for them to choose to spare a stricken worshiper of Eilistraee if they think that no priestess of Lolth is watching, or to fail to pass on to other drow something they might have seen of their activities, or to stop to watch a dance of Eilistraee worshipers rather than disrupting it.[16]''

Besides, a century of absence is not a long time from an elven perspective.

Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things.

Edited by - Irennan on 17 Apr 2016 21:53:22
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Tanthalas
Senior Scribe

Portugal
508 Posts

Posted - 17 Apr 2016 :  21:53:30  Show Profile Send Tanthalas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
But the counterpoint continues to be the same. For all intents and purposes both E and V were defeated and killed by Lolth, despite their 10k years of defiance. And even ignoring that, the Drow would just be trading one god for another.

On the other hand you have a mere mortal that has actually broken out of Menzoberranzan and thrived.

Ethereal and intangible defeated gods or a flesh and bone successful male.

Sir Markham pointed out, drinking another brandy. "A chap who can point at you and say 'die' has the distinct advantage".
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader

USA
2708 Posts

Posted - 17 Apr 2016 :  21:58:22  Show Profile Send CorellonsDevout a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Yes, Jarlaxle has been saying since Gauntlgrym, but it is sudden compared to how long Eilistraeens and Vhaeraunites have been trying to lead the drow down a better path (as Irennan pointed out). I didn't mean sudden as in suddenly in Maestro, I meant sudden as in Drizzt comes a long and suddenly there is hope, despite the fact that E and V and their followers have been active for centuries.

Even in the 100 or so years the siblings were "dead", I doubt their followers remained idle. Eilistraeens in particular would likely still have been preaching a better life, with or without Eilistraee, and the mortal followers themselves are evidence of drow "breaking the mold". Drizzt is cool, but...to be the only drow that matters in that regard? To be the only one who has influenced the drow and given them hope?

Sweet water and light laughter

Edited by - CorellonsDevout on 17 Apr 2016 22:06:04
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Irennan
Great Reader

Italy
3802 Posts

Posted - 17 Apr 2016 :  22:01:17  Show Profile Send Irennan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Tanthalas

But the counterpoint continues to be the same. For all intents and purposes both E and V were defeated and killed by Lolth, despite their 10k years of defiance. And even ignoring that, the Drow would just be trading one god for another.

On the other hand you have a mere mortal that has actually broken out of Menzoberranzan and thrived.

Ethereal and intangible defeated gods or a flesh and bone successful male.



The strength of both Eilistraee and Vhaeraun is also in that they have a lot of followers. Followers who are active in actually trying to offer the drow a different life (examples are the Secret Moondancers, and the followers of Vhaeraun who live within drow societies). You could also argue that E&V are rather concrete and close to the drow (an example is the part that I edited in my post above, and that perhaps you didn't see), they aren't distant deities.

I also think that you are misunderstanding what I wrote. If (and I'm talking about the time before Lolth defeated them) for 10k years the drow didn't see hope in E&V and in their followers of concrete flesh fighting to build a future for their people, then it is rather sudden for them to see hope in a single drow who isn't even really known to care for his people.

Plus, if you're insisting on their defeat, they might have been defeated, but they got back on their feet from that, and it is something that the drow can appreciate.

Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things.

Edited by - Irennan on 17 Apr 2016 22:10:54
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Irennan
Great Reader

Italy
3802 Posts

Posted - 17 Apr 2016 :  22:06:15  Show Profile Send Irennan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I think that you are also underestimating the fact that the drow have a very religious culture. They are close to their gods, so ''going from a god to another'' isn't neglectable and carries a lot of importance to them.

Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things.
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader

USA
2708 Posts

Posted - 17 Apr 2016 :  22:17:16  Show Profile Send CorellonsDevout a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I was going to say something like that as well. The fey (and I mean both elves and drow when I say that), tend to have a deeper...spiritual awareness, if you will, than other races, and the drow deities in particular (especially Lolth, E and V), tend to be actively involved and a part of their followers' lives. E and V--and their followers--have always had to be careful, but Eilistraee in particular welcomes her new followers.

Sweet water and light laughter
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Irennan
Great Reader

Italy
3802 Posts

Posted - 17 Apr 2016 :  22:23:10  Show Profile Send Irennan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Yeah, Eilistraee's even known to often manifest to new followers, and she was even manifesting through avatars during the time of the Sundering (so it stands even more that some drow might have seen her avatar and see hope in her. Same for Vhaeraun). But then, I'll state it again: I don't mind that Drizzt is a symbol of hope, at all. But I feel really let down that the two characters and their followers who dedicate most of what they do to the good of their people (well, according to their view of ''good'') aren't even mentioned (heck, you could even say that they have risked their life for the drow, although Vhaeraun *might* have perhaps done that more because of personal interest in gaining power). Especially in light of an event as huge as their return and alliance.

Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things.

Edited by - Irennan on 17 Apr 2016 22:26:30
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader

USA
2708 Posts

Posted - 17 Apr 2016 :  22:36:05  Show Profile Send CorellonsDevout a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Right, exactly. I like Drizzt, and it's fine that the drow see him as a hero or beacon of hope, but to be the *only* beacon of hope, when E and V--and their followers--have been active for centuries? That's what disappoints me. It sounds like the drow have been secretly idolizing Drizzt ever since he turned away from them, which was -before- the Spellplague, so even if E and V were absent during the 4e era (though again, I doubt their followers were), Drizzt has apparently been a beacon of hope for years, even before the Spellplague, so E and V would have been active during that time, which is one of the reasons it makes little sense that suddenly a lone drow is what causes others to go "hey, maybe we don't have to suffer". E and V were saying that for centuries, before Drizzt was born, and certainly during his lifetime before (and after) the Spellplague.

Sweet water and light laughter
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Irennan
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Italy
3802 Posts

Posted - 17 Apr 2016 :  22:52:08  Show Profile Send Irennan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Even in the 100 or so years the siblings were "dead", I doubt their followers remained idle. Eilistraeens in particular would likely still have been preaching a better life, with or without Eilistraee, and the mortal followers themselves are evidence of drow "breaking the mold". Drizzt is cool, but...to be the only drow that matters in that regard? To be the only one who has influenced the drow and given them hope?


That would be even more true, if we consider Ed's lore about Eilistraee actually surviving, because her followers would be more hopeful and motivated, knowing that their goddess isn't gone, albeit severely weakened. Besides, a century is a really small timeframe, compared to 10k years of defiance, and much, much more years of activity (they were active on Toril even before their mother).

Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things.

Edited by - Irennan on 17 Apr 2016 22:52:43
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CTrunks
Acolyte

Canada
20 Posts

Posted - 18 Apr 2016 :  06:37:33  Show Profile Send CTrunks a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I admittedly haven't had much of a chance to read Maestro yet (it just came out, for starters, and I haven't been able to get a copy of it), but I wonder if the reason why Drizzt seems to be this beacon of hope in Menzo is due to the death grip Lolth is supposed to have on the city. Even back in Homeland, they were hammering the point that the surface was simply no place for the drow, because they'd lose their magic and all of their items would turn to dust in the sunlight, and they'd be defenseless and die. And even when that changed because of the Starlight and Shadows trilogy, the Ruling Council (if not just Baenre, I'd have to double check) went out of their way to keep the knowledge that Drow magic would now work on the surface a secret.

Further, I think it was somewhat alluded to back during the WotSQ novels that the priestesses had a pretty good track record of keeping groups like the Jaezred Chaulssin from getting a toehold until Lolth went silent, and I can't imagine it would have been much easier for worshipers of Eilistraee until that point, if not harder. Add in the deaths of both Vhaeraun and Eilistraee in the Lady Penitent novels (and as an aside, I wonder how much those books affected people's opinions that Eilistraee was basically Good Lolth, considering how her priestesses reacted when Vhaeraun's priests started to join them in their rituals), and the fact that their returns may not be well known, except to any remaining followers, and... yeah, I can see Drizzt being viewed as a symbol of hope. He turned his back on everything their society represented and survived, if not thrived - and when they tried to kill him, they not only failed, they failed hard.

It does make a lot of drow males sound like his father, actually; they want to leave, and hate drow society, but simply don't believe that they're strong enough, either physically or mentally, to actually pull it off, or feel that they have too much blood on their hands to even bother trying.

Now, why Liriel Baenre isn't brought up in a similar light? If I had to give a reason that has clearly been extracted from my rectum, is simply that she was a Baenre, and people who mention her either go missing, or grow extra legs and spider mandibles.

I fully accept that I may very well be way off on all of this, this is just my opinion and I look forward to any and all corrections.
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Irennan
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Italy
3802 Posts

Posted - 18 Apr 2016 :  08:08:47  Show Profile Send Irennan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Again, the point is not that Drizzt can't or shouldn't be a symbol of hope, it's that he shouldn't be the only one. Especially that those very people who actively fight for the drow to conquer their freedom, and that have helped countless of them to find another path, shouldn't be ignored. It just feels off that millennias of struggle and defiance, and countless drow not only showing that the drow can forge their place in the world without Lolth, but also dying for that cause, have had no effect on the Menzoberranyr but *only* Drizzt does.

And while the Lolthite can be good at contrasting heretics or other groups, their presence and actions are still there, and have been for so much time that they simply *must* have had some effect, stirred something up. Those emotions/visions that Eilistraee sends to all drow are also still there, and Lolth can't do anything to block them (and I guess that they resumed with Eilistraee's being back, given that she and Vhaeraun did a lot to make their return known, even appearing in avatar form). And, as already stated, it would be extremely weird if the followers of the two siblings stood still in the century in which their gods were missing (especially if you consider what Ed said about Eilistraee not being killed, but surviving and still being able to manifest, although not to grant any spell, and losing so much power to basically be non-influent for that century), and the fact that Eilistraee&Vhaeraun currently have a worshiper base mostly made up of drow proves that their followers weren't in fact idle (given that apparently a lot of followers of the Dark Maiden were turned into brown elves).

As for the males, over such a long period of time, they can't have been blind to those many drow turning their back on Lolth, joining Vhaeraun and Eilistraee, surviving and forming communities on the surface. That should be very encouraging to them, especially given that those very drow would actually try to help them, were they to decide to try and escape. It should be as much encouraging as Drizzt, at least, make them think ''hey, my people--even anonymous nobodies--are choosing another life. Maybe I can too''. Add to this the fact that manyn drow consider their gods an important part of their life, so having another deity, *drow* like them at that, that would guide them (even care for them, in the case of Eilistraee) should be a further encouragement.

About Eilistraee's priestess in LP, yeah, those novels went way overboard with the sexism, even ignorning Eilistraee's lore. For example, it is canon that males join the dances and other rituals (except for the more passionate ones that are priestly rituals), that they can expect to be treated with respect and fairness, and that while there are priestesses that can be cold to males, as a whole they are welcoming of any drow (anyone wishing to join the Dark Maiden, actually), no matter the gender.

In short, the point is that it's cool that Drizzt is a symbol of hope (although he has never really cared for his people, that I know), but it isn't right to ignore Eilistraee and Vhaeraun when it comes to ''hope for the drow'', as they are actually a strong part of the drow culture, and made of that hope/freedom their goal since basically forever (and considering that their return--and alliance--should actually immensely piss Lolth off, be a huge event for the drow, one that should be explored, but that WotC likely won't. So, given that the focus currently is on the drow, a mention, a cameo, nothing plot-warping, just something to give them a bit of respect, wouldn't be out place, would it?)

Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things.

Edited by - Irennan on 18 Apr 2016 08:42:03
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BenN
Senior Scribe

Japan
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Posted - 18 Apr 2016 :  08:57:38  Show Profile Send BenN a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Thinking about the absence of Ellistree & Vhaeraun in RAS' novels, it seems especially weird that there's not even a subtle suggestion that some members of Bregan D'aerthe could be covert Vhaeraun worshippers. I get that they certainly couldn't be overt about it, otherwise they'd lose business (at the very least) with the Baenre & other houses.

In other (non-RAS) novels we learn that Valas Hune has Vhaeraun-worshipping acquaintances (the priest Tzirik Jaelre), but otherwise, zilch.

You'd think that an independent band of male drow mercenaries, with extensive operations on the surface, would have an least some connections with followers of Vhaeraun.
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Irennan
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Posted - 18 Apr 2016 :  09:04:24  Show Profile Send Irennan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Yeah, but at this point It seems to me that RAS kinda has his own version of the Realms. Shade crashing on the Anauroch is another example.

Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things.
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CTrunks
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Posted - 19 Apr 2016 :  05:48:34  Show Profile Send CTrunks a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Irennan

In short, the point is that it's cool that Drizzt is a symbol of hope (although he has never really cared for his people, that I know), but it isn't right to ignore Eilistraee and Vhaeraun when it comes to ''hope for the drow'', as they are actually a strong part of the drow culture, and made of that hope/freedom their goal since basically forever (and considering that their return--and alliance--should actually immensely piss Lolth off, be a huge event for the drow, one that should be explored, but that WotC likely won't. So, given that the focus currently is on the drow, a mention, a cameo, nothing plot-warping, just something to give them a bit of respect, wouldn't be out place, would it?)



I didn't want to quote everything just to go "you're most likely right", but... well, you've made plenty of good points that I can't argue. Certainly, E&V (did that make the Masked Lady EeVee?) deserve a lot more respect than they get, especially now that they're confirmed to be back and actively working again. I also fully admit a lot of my theories about why they didn't have the same influence in Menzo as they do in other cities was just patched together from other novels, primarily stuff from the WotSQ series.

What's truly funny to me is, now that I've been thinking about it, both the Neverwinter series, and the Companions Codex trilogy, would have made a lot more sense if Drizzt was a follower of Eilistraee from the very beginning. Certainly, he seems to have a lot more in common with her than Mielikki, and it explains Lolth's obsession to try and draw him back into her clutches. Plus, it adds to why she even got involved with the Darkening; it doesn't just potentially ruin Drizzt's reputation, but it hurts all drow who might be drawn into E&V's worship.

Just... kind of a shame, really.
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Irennan
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Posted - 19 Apr 2016 :  13:52:51  Show Profile Send Irennan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by CTrunks

I didn't want to quote everything just to go "you're most likely right", but... well, you've made plenty of good points that I can't argue. Certainly, E&V (did that make the Masked Lady EeVee?) deserve a lot more respect than they get, especially now that they're confirmed to be back and actively working again. I also fully admit a lot of my theories about why they didn't have the same influence in Menzo as they do in other cities was just patched together from other novels, primarily stuff from the WotSQ series.


Oh, they definitely struggled (and I guess will struggle) a lot in Menzo, but they were still there (even the Eilistraeean--for example, one of the first daughters of house Horlbar was a Secret Moondancer, before they found out and she had to run), always trying to offer freedom to the drow (in their own ways), for millennia.

quote:
(did that make the Masked Lady EeVee?)


Depends if you see them as Eilistraee with Vhaeraun's portfolio, or as Eilistraee and Vhaeraun temporarily merged (in which case they would be Lady EeVee). The books weren't really clear about this, but Ed gave some suggestions on what actually happened: http://forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=19841&whichpage=22#476639

quote:
What's truly funny to me is, now that I've been thinking about it, both the Neverwinter series, and the Companions Codex trilogy, would have made a lot more sense if Drizzt was a follower of Eilistraee from the very beginning. Certainly, he seems to have a lot more in common with her than Mielikki, and it explains Lolth's obsession to try and draw him back into her clutches. Plus, it adds to why she even got involved with the Darkening; it doesn't just potentially ruin Drizzt's reputation, but it hurts all drow who might be drawn into E&V's worship.

Just... kind of a shame, really.



I don't think that Drizzt could have been a worshiper of Eilistraee right when he was created, because--while Eilistraee was created by Ed for his own world--she only became official in 1990 (or 91, I'm not sure) when TSR asked Ed for more drow deities, and he catched the opportunity to make her official.

But interaction between Drizzt and the followers of Eilistraee (and other drow who chose their own path) would be cool. If he was to find Eilistraee, she would at least solve all his moral dilemma about natural/nurtured/irredeemable evil, acceptance, tolerance and so on. She is also known to appear to her people, in various forms, when they need comfort/support, so that would help him as well. She would also be way closer to the ideals in his heart (because that's what he sees in gods, AFAIK) than Mielikki (who is about embracing and protecting nature, and pacifiacally coexisting with it).

That doesn't mean that Drizzt should start to worship the Dark Dancer (he isn't really religious and doesn't even actually worshio Mielikki), but he could simply interact with the followers of the Dark Dancer, feel her and be comforted by her, and that would perfectly fit her modus operandi.

Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things.

Edited by - Irennan on 19 Apr 2016 14:20:16
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Wooly Rupert
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Posted - 19 Apr 2016 :  15:02:21  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Irennan


I don't think that Drizzt could have been a worshiper of Eilistraee right when he was created, because--while Eilistraee was created by Ed for his own world--she only became official in 1990 (or 91, I'm not sure) when TSR asked Ed for more drow deities, and he catched the opportunity to make her official.



1991, per the copyright date in the book.

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Irennan
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Posted - 19 Apr 2016 :  16:33:49  Show Profile Send Irennan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Thank you

Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things.
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