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hashimashadoo
Master of Realmslore

United Kingdom
1112 Posts

Posted - 11 Apr 2016 :  13:39:59  Show Profile  Visit hashimashadoo's Homepage  Click to see hashimashadoo's MSN Messenger address Send hashimashadoo a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Baltas

Well, I think Wooly we shouldn't be so harsh to Shadowsoul.

Also, another thing, while I do agree the customers have a rights to judge, from what I saw, with scoring of Siege of Dragonspear, there are few problems. First, many scored the game as the absolute minimum score possible, which is rather reserved for a game that flat out fails at everything, giving the lowest score en masse, is a "artificial" way of scoring the game down, and may be eve seen as unethical. Even if we get all the flaws, I doubt Siege of Dragonspear desrves a score lower than 5/10, to give a example of scale.
Second, many who gave this very low, often possible lowest minimum scores, haven't even played the game. Which is why I think Beamdof adresses this issue.

Somewhat related, about the bugs, people report having many of them, or near none, so it's strange. I guess it may be because the game's engine is rebuilt from such an old engine, and may because of that react differently on many machines, with not only various operating systems, but also various device drivers.



I don't think we're being harsh to Shadowsoul, I agree with him on several of his points. We just vehemently disagree with him on his main point which is that Beamdog should have censored Amber Scott before this debate started.

As for the bugs, I think people are complaining because a lot of effort had been put into removing all of the ones from the vanilla game by the community, so that it ran close to perfectly. The SoD update not only implanted new ones, but it also disabled all of the modifications that people have been playing with for many years.

When life turns it's back on you...sneak attack for extra damage.

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ZeshinX
Learned Scribe

Canada
204 Posts

Posted - 11 Apr 2016 :  15:09:07  Show Profile  Visit ZeshinX's Homepage Send ZeshinX a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I find the whole kerfuffle about SoD regarding agendas, gender identities and roles...a whole lot of who cares. Mizhena sells healing supplies and that's the extent of my interest in the character. Jaheira's personality isn't much different to me, but I never much cared about Jaheira in the first place. Pretty much the same with Safana but she went from the personality of a potato to a slightly more flirty potato.

All the controversy is just unwelcome noise to me.

"...because despite the best advice of those who know what they are talking about, other people insist on doing the most massively stupid things."
-Galen, technomage
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sno4wy
Learned Scribe

USA
278 Posts

Posted - 11 Apr 2016 :  16:32:41  Show Profile Send sno4wy a Private Message  Reply with Quote
It's not a world-breaking deal to me, but I do care that Beamdog at least attempted to incorporate a non-standard character. "Diversity" in today's media should be more than the inclusion of, for instance, white female leads. This should be especially true in a world that canonically is accepting of their all-encompassing nature. If anything, it's odd that a universe like the Forgotten Realms has for so long only featured straight and cis men and women (with the exception being the fetishization of lesbianism). Sure, men and women of different *fantasy* races, but those races are more or less different physical transfigurations of the most "normal" (heavy emphasis on the quotation marks) of us.

I understand the trans/trans-concerned community that dislikes the way that Mizhena is included. They have every right to be upset, because Mizhena's backstory is perfunctory at best. She's the modern LGBT equivalent of the token black guy back in old cinema. If you're having trouble understanding why people that identify the same way that Mizhena does is unhappy with her implementation, compare Mizhena to Krem, another trans character, whom Dragon Age: Inquisition implemented really well. Unlike Mizhena, Krem not only has a lot of screen time and plot relevance, his story has logic, substance and clearly demonstrates the importance of personal choice, as his options are much less limited than are those in our world due to the existence of magic.

I intellectually understand the logic of just avoiding controversial issues altogether, but I can't agree with it. No progress can ever be achieved if we just always played it safe and avoided potentially prickly issues. I've also certainly advocated the "If you can't do it right, don't do it" approach in many other things, but I feel that for something as important as diversity, that shouldn't apply. I'm not saying that it's ok to fail so long as they've tried, not at all. What I believe is, "You should always do it, and you should damn well do everything you can to make it right". Sure, that's a strict criteria, but we don't deserve anything less.
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Delwa
Master of Realmslore

USA
1232 Posts

Posted - 12 Apr 2016 :  16:14:25  Show Profile  Visit Delwa's Homepage Send Delwa a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I saw This and thought it worth adding to the conversation. It seems restrictions placed on the dialogue word count and not intentionally shallow script writing was a contributing factor.

- Delwa Aunglor of Tangled Trees
I am off to slay yon refrigerator and spoil it's horde. Go for the cheese, Boo!

"The Realms change; seldom at the speed desired of those who strive, but far too quickly for those who resist." - The Simbul, taken from the Forgotten Realms Campaign Conspectus

My Forging the Realms Archives (Google Drive pdfs)
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hashimashadoo
Master of Realmslore

United Kingdom
1112 Posts

Posted - 12 Apr 2016 :  19:31:18  Show Profile  Visit hashimashadoo's Homepage  Click to see hashimashadoo's MSN Messenger address Send hashimashadoo a Private Message  Reply with Quote
It's a good article that I was glad to read. It addresses most of the crap being thrown at the game but doesn't really touch upon the other valid concerns that people have about it.

When life turns it's back on you...sneak attack for extra damage.

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Baltas
Senior Scribe

Poland
497 Posts

Posted - 12 Apr 2016 :  19:51:46  Show Profile Send Baltas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Really good article indeed.

Also, to Shadowsoul.
Yes, Amber Scott declard herself a SJW, but this may be like Solas started to use the name Fen'harel in Dragon Age. Now, it argubly reached a point were people also seem to call each other SJWs to often. And sometimes even, those calling other SJW, are actually bigoted, and the so called by them "SJWs", actually do progressive work in medias, that's actually pretty needed.

But the core of my argument is, the SJW term is a bit overused by now...

Edited by - Baltas on 12 Apr 2016 21:30:07
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sno4wy
Learned Scribe

USA
278 Posts

Posted - 12 Apr 2016 :  21:54:03  Show Profile Send sno4wy a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I agree with Baltas, "SJW" does feel overused and more often than not in a derogatory way. It's like how "feminist" was/still is often used by haters as an insult, when in actuality, words like "feminist" and "social justice warrior" are just to denote people who believe in fighting for equality. Some do it more zealously than do others, but still, imo it's silly to make nouns that are at worse neutral into negative descriptors.
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Caladan Brood
Senior Scribe

Norway
410 Posts

Posted - 13 Apr 2016 :  00:27:54  Show Profile  Visit Caladan Brood's Homepage Send Caladan Brood a Private Message  Reply with Quote
If you like BG you'll like SoD.
The "shocking" content..I didn't even register.

SoD didn't have the pull on me, I almost forgot I had it. Which is weird since I've been jonesing for more BG since 2002.

I just need to find the time..
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Delwa
Master of Realmslore

USA
1232 Posts

Posted - 13 Apr 2016 :  00:41:56  Show Profile  Visit Delwa's Homepage Send Delwa a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Caladan Brood

If you like BG you'll like SoD.
The "shocking" content..I didn't even register.



Ditto. Frankly, I'd never have noticed the "shocking content" if the drama queens of the internet hasn't made an issue of it. Which sucks because now I'm consciously having to make an effort to ignore the insignificant details I'd have blissfully not seen otherwise. Makes me wish Alter Memories were an affordable spell in this world.

- Delwa Aunglor of Tangled Trees
I am off to slay yon refrigerator and spoil it's horde. Go for the cheese, Boo!

"The Realms change; seldom at the speed desired of those who strive, but far too quickly for those who resist." - The Simbul, taken from the Forgotten Realms Campaign Conspectus

My Forging the Realms Archives (Google Drive pdfs)
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TBeholder
Master of Realmslore

1489 Posts

Posted - 13 Apr 2016 :  04:13:27  Show Profile Send TBeholder a Private Message  Reply with Quote
"In which Ed Greenwood (after Anne McCafrey and Tom Siddell before him) learns the hard way why by now just about everyone either intentionally caters or treats this sort of content as a plague".
(Sigh)
Let's note that (unlike Ed) the designers are certainly aware of what's going on the internet.
Is there anything more to say, really?
quote:
Originally posted by sno4wy

I agree with Baltas, "SJW" does feel overused and more often than not in a derogatory way. It's like how "feminist" was/still is often used by haters as an insult,

That's strange. Why would this be so?
Oh, right, those "haters", imaginary evil thoughtcriminals. That's the only possible reason.
quote:
when in actuality, words like "feminist" and "social justice warrior" are just to denote people who believe in fighting for equality.

Surely you have met some evidence in support of such a strange idea?

People never wonder How the world goes round -Helloween
And even I make no pretense Of having more than common sense -R.W.Wood
It's not good, Eric. It's a gazebo. -Ed Whitchurch
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
30340 Posts

Posted - 13 Apr 2016 :  04:24:50  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I do not like where this is going.

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Baltas
Senior Scribe

Poland
497 Posts

Posted - 13 Apr 2016 :  07:18:26  Show Profile Send Baltas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by TBeholder

quote:
Originally posted by sno4wy

I agree with Baltas, "SJW" does feel overused and more often than not in a derogatory way. It's like how "feminist" was/still is often used by haters as an insult,

That's strange. Why would this be so?
Oh, right, those "haters", imaginary evil thoughtcriminals. That's the only possible reason.
quote:
when in actuality, words like "feminist" and "social justice warrior" are just to denote people who believe in fighting for equality.

Surely you have met some evidence in support of such a strange idea?



Well, TBeholder, for feminism, to say the least, look up Malala Yousafzai, International Women's Health Coalition, Femme International.
In terms of activity in the "First World countries", look up for reason the results of the research done in Tel Aviv:
http://nber.org/papers/w20909

For Social Justice Warriors, the definition is extremelly broad, and in full definition, and in the intented, not sarcrastic meaning, may mean many things, LGBT activists, Feminists, Anti-racism activists, MRAs, etc.

About "haters"/"imaginary evil thoughtcriminals", I can discuss this on Private Message with you, as I don't want this to completelly overtake this discussion.

Edited by - Baltas on 13 Apr 2016 07:56:17
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sno4wy
Learned Scribe

USA
278 Posts

Posted - 13 Apr 2016 :  13:53:07  Show Profile Send sno4wy a Private Message  Reply with Quote
TBeholder, are you actually interested in civilized discussion, or, judging by the tone of your post, are you solely interested in taking cheap shots? :P

Even though it appears that you've made certain assumptions about me (and correct me if I'm wrong about this, but given that you've never taken the time to actually know me, it stands to reason then that I'm not), I'd like to withhold the same "courtesy" from you, as my basic level of respect for members of this forum is higher than that for the general population on the internet. So I ask you, what exactly do you gain by making antagonistic assertions at me when all I've done is state my perspectives on the matter? ;)

Edited by - sno4wy on 13 Apr 2016 15:20:05
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
30340 Posts

Posted - 13 Apr 2016 :  15:17:45  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Let's not get personal on this, please.

Candlekeep Forums Moderator

Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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-- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct

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Baltas
Senior Scribe

Poland
497 Posts

Posted - 13 Apr 2016 :  22:08:51  Show Profile Send Baltas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Yeah, I think Wooly is right here, no need to take this so personaly. I just wanted to note that Amber Scott might have taken intentionally on the label of a SJW, as a critique of sorts if how this term(in it's pejorative sense) is over-used, but I fear it may derail the discussion.
I also think the topic if Amber Scott, and Mizhena, is dominating to much of the discussion about Siege of Dragonspear, including here now.

Let's maybe try to discuss other stuff in the game.

Edited by - Baltas on 13 Apr 2016 22:20:07
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sno4wy
Learned Scribe

USA
278 Posts

Posted - 13 Apr 2016 :  22:56:30  Show Profile Send sno4wy a Private Message  Reply with Quote
My apologies, it wasn't my intent to make things uncomfortable. I was caught off-guard by the "imaginary evil thoughtcriminals" comment, as it was the first time I'd seen a member of these forums accuse another of being not right in the head. ;P Granted, I haven't been here as long as most of you and I've only read through a handful of threads, so my assumptions aren't really based on anything. I'll happily chalk this up to a miscommunication borne from the ease with which text can be misunderstood due to the relative difficulty to discern tone from it.

Regardless, don't let my surprise stop people from talking about anything that they want to discuss, so long as it's in line with the codes of conduct.
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deserk
Learned Scribe

Norway
96 Posts

Posted - 14 Apr 2016 :  00:51:28  Show Profile Send deserk a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I find this image quite funny and interesting. Shows maybe too much of the personal opinion of the writer, and basically nearly every response option is a shade of the same viciously angry and offended reaction, lol.

http://i.imgur.com/YaCQ8n7.jpg
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Baltas
Senior Scribe

Poland
497 Posts

Posted - 14 Apr 2016 :  13:33:23  Show Profile Send Baltas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by deserk

I find this image quite funny and interesting. Shows maybe too much of the personal opinion of the writer, and basically nearly every response option is a shade of the same viciously angry and offended reaction, lol.

http://i.imgur.com/YaCQ8n7.jpg



Well, to be honest, option 3 "Are you talking to me?, doesn't sound neither offended, or angry, and the rest pretty gives a varied version of feeling offended, and reacting on it, depending on the Bhaalspawn personality we're going with.
There may had been more reactions like 3, at least one more, but I don't think it's that bad.

Edited by - Baltas on 14 Apr 2016 14:33:18
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hashimashadoo
Master of Realmslore

United Kingdom
1112 Posts

Posted - 14 Apr 2016 :  15:03:02  Show Profile  Visit hashimashadoo's Homepage  Click to see hashimashadoo's MSN Messenger address Send hashimashadoo a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Baltas

quote:
Originally posted by deserk

I find this image quite funny and interesting. Shows maybe too much of the personal opinion of the writer, and basically nearly every response option is a shade of the same viciously angry and offended reaction, lol.

http://i.imgur.com/YaCQ8n7.jpg



Well, to be honest, option 3 "Are you talking to me?, doesn't sound neither offended, or angry



Unless you say it in Robert De Niro's voice :P

When life turns it's back on you...sneak attack for extra damage.

Head admin of the FR wiki:

http://forgottenrealms.wikia.com
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Purple Dragon Knight
Master of Realmslore

Canada
1796 Posts

Posted - 15 Apr 2016 :  00:01:55  Show Profile  Click to see Purple Dragon Knight's MSN Messenger address Send Purple Dragon Knight a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by deserk

I find this image quite funny and interesting. Shows maybe too much of the personal opinion of the writer, and basically nearly every response option is a shade of the same viciously angry and offended reaction, lol.

http://i.imgur.com/YaCQ8n7.jpg

Hahaha! hilarious! I think we're getting close to the society depicted in "Demolition Man"... give it a few years! I can't help think what a warrior from the middle ages would think of all this online chatter...

Ah... demolition man... http://i.imgur.com/iVHSD0W.gif

Edited by - Purple Dragon Knight on 15 Apr 2016 00:06:37
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Purple Dragon Knight
Master of Realmslore

Canada
1796 Posts

Posted - 15 Apr 2016 :  00:08:26  Show Profile  Click to see Purple Dragon Knight's MSN Messenger address Send Purple Dragon Knight a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Also... prophetic? :P

http://40.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_mcqkw6fdJg1qei97go1_400.jpg
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Baltas
Senior Scribe

Poland
497 Posts

Posted - 16 Apr 2016 :  16:17:03  Show Profile Send Baltas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Purple Dragon Knight

quote:
Originally posted by deserk

I find this image quite funny and interesting. Shows maybe too much of the personal opinion of the writer, and basically nearly every response option is a shade of the same viciously angry and offended reaction, lol.

http://i.imgur.com/YaCQ8n7.jpg

Hahaha! hilarious! I think we're getting close to the society depicted in "Demolition Man"... give it a few years! I can't help think what a warrior from the middle ages would think of all this online chatter...

Ah... demolition man... http://i.imgur.com/iVHSD0W.gif



Well, seeing all of the situation, there are various possible dystopias, and it's hard to tell if we're heading towards one, towards which.
The problem too, is a double sided sword. Again, the whole situation of attacking Siege of Dragonspear, is a bit on attack on free speech(in terms of writting), despite ironically, opponents of SJW seemingly so defending free speech.
A comment of one of people critiquing Siege of Dragonspear:
http://imgur.com/2CBDrqG

But again, I think this discussion goes to much into Amber Scott, her beliefs, and how her beliefs influence her writting etc.

I would love if we finally discussed other stuff, like Safana and Jaheira for example.

Edited by - Baltas on 16 Apr 2016 17:24:28
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Clegane
Seeker

65 Posts

Posted - 16 Apr 2016 :  17:48:46  Show Profile Send Clegane a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Was there any mention of a Dumok the Fist? There was a massive hammer that belonged to him in the Temple of Tempus in the Icewind Dale game. The plaque for the weapon said Dumok was a legendary warrior that fell in battle during the Siege of Dragonspear.
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Baltas
Senior Scribe

Poland
497 Posts

Posted - 17 Apr 2016 :  04:08:00  Show Profile Send Baltas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Rather not, as Dumok died before the first Icewind Dale game - which means some time before 1281 DR.
The first Baldur's Gate game, begins in 1368 DR.
So Dumok died in a different, much earlier assault of the Dragonspear castle. There were actually QUITE a lot of assaults on the Dragonspear castle in history...
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Veritas
Learned Scribe

203 Posts

Posted - 17 Apr 2016 :  04:41:21  Show Profile  Visit Veritas's Homepage Send Veritas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Someone will get the job done correctly, eventually.
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