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Baltas
Senior Scribe

Poland
497 Posts

Posted - 07 Apr 2016 :  19:21:34  Show Profile Send Baltas a Private Message  Reply with Quote  Delete Topic
This is a discussion started by me in the Sword Coast Legends Postmortem thread:
http://forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=20894

Basically, it seems that the new expansion to Siege of Dragonspear, may get very low(very often zero star) reviews, even from people who didn't play the game at all, due to factors like one character(Mizhena), being transgender, or maybe rather how it's presented, Minsc made a joke on Gamergate controversy, Safana having a changed characterisation, and possibly(I'm really not sure of this one) Jaheira having a change of characterisation.

The developers even adressed this issue:
https://forums.beamdog.com/discussion/50341/negative-reviews-on-gog-and-steam/p1

So I would really like to know from Candlekeek Forum, which I think is the most reliable source, if this is true, or sadly Siege of Dragonspear really is a bad explansion/game.

This are the comments of scribes on the issue that were posted in the Sword Coast Legends Postmortem thread:

quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I haven't played the game, myself, but from what I've read online, the majority of the negative reviews -- some of which are from people that haven't even played the game -- are because of that character.



quote:
Originally posted by Diffan

Like Wooly, I haven't played the game. The reviews on Siege of Dragonspear, anti-inclusivness aside, were largely poor due to many of the system's bugs and glitches with in-game play along with errors that occurred in uploading character files. The reviews of the game were to either not buy it totally or wait for a patch to fix all the issues.



quote:
Originally posted by Master Katarn

I'm playing Siege of Dragonspear right now, and had no problem importing my party from the post Baldur's Gate Enhanced Edition save. So far, I haven't seen any serious bugs or glitches (although to be fair, I haven't tried multiplayer yet), which makes me wonder if those poor reviews are because of said bugs or the controversy about the content (I personally feel the expansion content fits in well with the main Baldur's Gate game and don't really agree with the horde of complaints used to justify all the zero star reviews, etc).



Edited by - Baltas on 08 Apr 2016 07:44:58

ZeshinX
Learned Scribe

Canada
205 Posts

Posted - 07 Apr 2016 :  20:51:43  Show Profile  Visit ZeshinX's Homepage Send ZeshinX a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I find Siege of Dragonspear (SoD) to be excellent. It's buggy (as is the 2.0 patch applied to BG:EE and BG2:EE), but I haven't encountered any disastrous bugs (a few crash to desktops). I find the most annoying bug the difficulty slider one (seems to notch itself down one difficulty level any time you exit and re-enter the game).

I quite enjoyed it honestly.

"...because despite the best advice of those who know what they are talking about, other people insist on doing the most massively stupid things."
-Galen, technomage
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Snotlord
Senior Scribe

Norway
476 Posts

Posted - 07 Apr 2016 :  22:43:00  Show Profile  Visit Snotlord's Homepage Send Snotlord a Private Message  Reply with Quote
The hate-campaign seems to be rubbish. I'm a couple of hours into it - not bugs so far, and the set-up is pure old-school gold.
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Delwa
Master of Realmslore

USA
1234 Posts

Posted - 08 Apr 2016 :  02:28:50  Show Profile  Visit Delwa's Homepage Send Delwa a Private Message  Reply with Quote
First off, the game downloaded and installed for me on Windows 10 just fine. I had no issues with it. I already owned the Enhanced Edition, and there is a known bug with the game not saving for the Enhanced Edition in general, but I'd already solved that months ago, so there's that.

I've played the game for the past week off and on, and the game has only crashed once, and I'm not sure that's entirely the game's fault. My virus software sent one of those "you must reboot your computer now for updates to take effect" messages and the game quit, I dismissed the message, restarted my computer, and played for several more hours without issue. Thank the Seldarine for a habit of hitting quicksave every few seconds.

I've not experienced any of the poorly written dialogue complaints I've heard. There have been a few times when it was obvious to me that the writer had a poor grasp of Shakespeare's English, but unless you're used to reading KJV English, you won't notice it. I'm trying really hard to come up with the exact lines, but I can't.
The character that everyone is up in arms about didn't interest me before I read the complaints, so I hadn't initiated that dialogue option. I'm tempted to go back and initiate that option just to see if I agree, but first things first, play the story through.

I'm enjoying the new menu system. It's aesthetically pleasing and handy. The way the new map function works is awesome. I can see a bit of what some people are saying about the game being linear, but considering that this game takes place between BG1 and BG2, it already has a preset start and end point. You're going to be walking a fairly straight line by simple reason that you're working on a line segment. Within that, this line has width, and you have options.

Anyway, that's my take on it. I'll comment more on the story when I finish it. But at the moment, a single game crash aside, I'm not running into any of the technical issues that everyone is crying fowl over.

- Delwa Aunglor of Tangled Trees
I am off to slay yon refrigerator and spoil it's horde. Go for the cheese, Boo!

"The Realms change; seldom at the speed desired of those who strive, but far too quickly for those who resist." - The Simbul, taken from the Forgotten Realms Campaign Conspectus

My Forging the Realms Archives (Google Drive pdfs)
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arctic79
Acolyte

Australia
7 Posts

Posted - 08 Apr 2016 :  21:30:16  Show Profile Send arctic79 a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I have had no probs, think most reviews are full of it. Some people just have a few roos loose in the top paddock.
Cheers.
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Shadowsoul
Senior Scribe

Ireland
648 Posts

Posted - 09 Apr 2016 :  07:03:23  Show Profile Send Shadowsoul a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by arctic79

I have had no probs, think most reviews are full of it. Some people just have a few roos loose in the top paddock.
Cheers.



And this is one of the main reasons people are having a problem. It's people like you who are dismissing people who have problems with the game. All reviews are valid no matter what it is. You might want to try actually reading the reviews because it's not the transgender character they are having trouble with, it's the way the character is handled. There are actual transgender posters on the Beamdog forums who have a problem because it doesn't portray them correctly. Amber Scott, who was the writer, has already been quoted that basically her message was important above all else no matter if people liked it or not. If you know there is the possibility that something contriversial could happen then you avoid it. She knew she was playing with fire and ended up being burned in the end. The game is riddled with bugs. Have you tried multiplayer? It's a nightmare. Also, at the end of the day there are a "lot" of angry customers that have probably gotten refunds and will probably not purchase future products which hurt Beamdog a lot.

“Fantasy is escapist, and that is its glory. If a soldier is imprisioned by the enemy, don't we consider it his duty to escape?. . .If we value the freedom of mind and soul, if we're partisans of liberty, then it's our plain duty to escape, and to take as many people with us as we can!”
#8213; J.R.R. Tolkien

*I endorse everything Dark Wizard says*.
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arctic79
Acolyte

Australia
7 Posts

Posted - 09 Apr 2016 :  08:31:46  Show Profile Send arctic79 a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Shadow you post a lot of crap. I haven't had any issues with bugs or writing, if you have wait for the patch. Im sure beamdog will be fine and will in future avoid shallow tokenism.
Either way this forum contains more fandum than fandom.
Have a nice day.
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hashimashadoo
Master of Realmslore

United Kingdom
1112 Posts

Posted - 09 Apr 2016 :  14:36:07  Show Profile  Visit hashimashadoo's Homepage  Click to see hashimashadoo's MSN Messenger address Send hashimashadoo a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I honestly don't see how transgender people could have a problem with Mizhena. She is given two lines of dialogue relating to her sexuality, neither of which go into any detail (though Beamdog has suggested that her character will be expanded upon in a future update). Minsc's joke about GamerGate has been removed from the game (at least on Steam, which I use to play).

Amber Scott's an SJW. So what? They're all over, some of them are bound to be employed writers. I'd say that the more important complaint about her is that she'd NEVER PLAYED ANY OF THE BALDUR'S GATE GAMES BEFORE. That being said, I didn't like what she did to Safana. Jaheira's personality change is noticeable but it isn't nearly as jarring as Safana's.

Shadowsoul, if people kept their negative reviews solely to the technical problems that SoD definitely has, then Beamdog wouldn't be taking the actions that it has been taking. Amber Scott's position on her writing is poor but that doesn't mean that you should avoid controversy by refusing to publish the material. No progress is ever made that way. What it boils down to in most cases are people who are overreacting to very minor writing issues.

Yes, the game is buggy - the quest journal won't actually record most of the quests, you'll just get a dialogue box (which will, on rare occasions mess up your UI) which you won't have time to read the whole way through without pausing the game. NPC AI (for both followers and enemies) is a little broken but that's all I've personally experienced. I've heard just as many people pile heaps of praise onto the Dragonspear plot as I've heard detractors though.

If I hadn't just gotten a new laptop (and therefore had to reinstall everything) I'd probably have finished by now and could review it with hidden spoilers.

When life turns it's back on you...sneak attack for extra damage.

Head admin of the FR wiki:

http://forgottenrealms.wikia.com
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Baltas
Senior Scribe

Poland
497 Posts

Posted - 09 Apr 2016 :  14:40:54  Show Profile Send Baltas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Shadowsoul

And this is one of the main reasons people are having a problem. It's people like you who are dismissing people who have problems with the game. All reviews are valid no matter what it is. You might want to try actually reading the reviews because it's not the transgender character they are having trouble with, it's the way the character is handled. There are actual transgender posters on the Beamdog forums who have a problem because it doesn't portray them correctly. Amber Scott, who was the writer, has already been quoted that basically her message was important above all else no matter if people liked it or not. If you know there is the possibility that something contriversial could happen then you avoid it. She knew she was playing with fire and ended up being burned in the end. The game is riddled with bugs. Have you tried multiplayer? It's a nightmare. Also, at the end of the day there are a "lot" of angry customers that have probably gotten refunds and will probably not purchase future products which hurt Beamdog a lot.



Well, maybe Mizhena is a bit to blatant, with such reviews, it's hard to say if such person critiquing her character there is actually transgendered, or just writes so just because it's convinent.

And also, transgendered and homosexual people, oddly CAN be homophobic or transphobic.

I MAY sound very paranoid here, with those two above suggestions, but it's allways something to consider, I think.

What I posted is a bit political, and I really hope the discussion won't be derailed by it, but I just want to note here people can pose as gay or transgendered for their purposes, or that that transgenderd and homosexual people, can also be on various levels homophobic and/or transphobic.

Again though, it's possible the criticism of Mizhena, can be fully on spot, but I think one should also consider what I wrote above.

[EDIT]
Removed the reall-life example I gave of the above behaviour, as I have allready mixed feelings about this post being to political, and I consider deleting it all together...

Edited by - Baltas on 09 Apr 2016 18:46:32
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Shadowsoul
Senior Scribe

Ireland
648 Posts

Posted - 09 Apr 2016 :  20:14:00  Show Profile Send Shadowsoul a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by hashimashadoo




Shadowsoul, if people kept their negative reviews solely to the technical problems that SoD definitely has, then Beamdog wouldn't be taking the actions that it has been taking. Amber Scott's position on her writing is poor but that doesn't mean that you should avoid controversy by refusing to publish the material. No progress is ever made that way. What it boils down to in most cases are people who are overreacting to very minor writing issues.



There is a time and a place for controversial issues, Baldur's Gate is not one of them. When it comes to things like this you have to tread a fine line and use common sense. Somethings just do not belong and you have to accept that. Amber Scott decided to push her agenda and it backfired like hell. This is why such things are best avoided unless the time and place are appropriate.

“Fantasy is escapist, and that is its glory. If a soldier is imprisioned by the enemy, don't we consider it his duty to escape?. . .If we value the freedom of mind and soul, if we're partisans of liberty, then it's our plain duty to escape, and to take as many people with us as we can!”
#8213; J.R.R. Tolkien

*I endorse everything Dark Wizard says*.
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Baltas
Senior Scribe

Poland
497 Posts

Posted - 09 Apr 2016 :  20:39:20  Show Profile Send Baltas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Few important stuff, I think should be included, a critique of Siege of Dragonspear:
http://nichegamer.com/2016/04/03/beamdog-addresses-problematic-content-baldurs-gate/

But also Ed's own oppinion on all of this:
https://www.facebook.com/ed.greenwood.142/posts/10156746522575453?pnref=story
https://www.facebook.com/TheEdVerse/posts/10153297537951534
https://www.facebook.com/TheEdVerse/posts/10153299495021534

Edited by - Baltas on 09 Apr 2016 20:39:46
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
30431 Posts

Posted - 09 Apr 2016 :  22:26:40  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Shadowsoul

quote:
Originally posted by hashimashadoo




Shadowsoul, if people kept their negative reviews solely to the technical problems that SoD definitely has, then Beamdog wouldn't be taking the actions that it has been taking. Amber Scott's position on her writing is poor but that doesn't mean that you should avoid controversy by refusing to publish the material. No progress is ever made that way. What it boils down to in most cases are people who are overreacting to very minor writing issues.



There is a time and a place for controversial issues, Baldur's Gate is not one of them. When it comes to things like this you have to tread a fine line and use common sense. Somethings just do not belong and you have to accept that. Amber Scott decided to push her agenda and it backfired like hell. This is why such things are best avoided unless the time and place are appropriate.



Why is it that any time something other than heterosexuality is mentioned in any way, it's an agenda? People are people. Acknowledging that not everyone fits into one mold is not an agenda. Saying that all people should be treated the same is not an agenda.

Trying to punish people for being different, or marginalize them, or shove them off to one side to pretend they don't exist -- that's an agenda.

Candlekeep Forums Moderator

Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com
-- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct

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I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen!
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Baltas
Senior Scribe

Poland
497 Posts

Posted - 10 Apr 2016 :  16:50:13  Show Profile Send Baltas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Why is it that any time something other than heterosexuality is mentioned in any way, it's an agenda? People are people. Acknowledging that not everyone fits into one mold is not an agenda. Saying that all people should be treated the same is not an agenda.

Trying to punish people for being different, or marginalize them, or shove them off to one side to pretend they don't exist -- that's an agenda.



I think you're right Wooly, and from what I saw with comments critiquing Mizhena, they suggested among things being transgendered meant to hide it, or even being ashamed of it(?), even in those written by (aparently?) transgendered people. Again, transphobia, saddly, is still a very reall problem, especially subconcious one, in modern society.

quote:
Originally posted by Shadowsoul

There is a time and a place for controversial issues, Baldur's Gate is not one of them. When it comes to things like this you have to tread a fine line and use common sense. Somethings just do not belong and you have to accept that. Amber Scott decided to push her agenda and it backfired like hell. This is why such things are best avoided unless the time and place are appropriate.



Shadowsoul, I may misunderstand you, but I'm not sure such stuff really doesn't have place in Baldur's Gate games, the creators of Baldur's Gate, did say they wanted to originally include more LGBT material, even while originally doing the games, and a remenant of that is Haer'dalis sleeping with a male drow prostitute.

Again, maybe indeed Mizhena is to blatant anout her transexuality, and unrealistically so, but nature of at least a part of the comments is a bit controversial and at least some are with unfortunate implications.

Again, I posted it before, and so here is Ed Greenwood's own oppionion on all of this:
quote:

I am saddened by what I hear of the current kerfluffle raging about Siege of Dragonspear and the trans character Amber Scott designed and included in it.
Folks, the Realms have ALWAYS had characters (mortals and deities) who crossdressed, changed gender (and not just to sneak past guards in an adventure, by way of shapeshifting magic or illusions), were actively bisexual, and openly gay. How underscored this was by TSR and later Wizards varied over time, and was always softpedaled, because D&D wasn't a sex game, and we generally don't rub the reader's nose in sex unless there's a good in-story reason for it.
But even deities have changed gender, sometimes for good, and the servants of deities (Elminster, in ELMINSTER: THE MAKING OF A MAGE) have sometimes been forced by the deity to "spend time as the other" to learn what life is like.
So it has always been there, and is an integral part of the Realms. With that said, I've never met a gamer yet who doesn't tinker with every adventure to "make it their own" at their own gaming table, so if trans, LGBT, or sexual matters at all don't suit your tastes and needs in your gaming sessions, leave it out or change it.
But D&D has half-orcs, and half-dragons, and half-elves, and has magic items that specifically change gender, right there in the rules. Surely, if you can handle the basic notion of cross-SPECIES sex, having a full variety of gender roles should be something that doesn't blow your mind. If it's not for you, that's fine. I hate wearing certain shades of yellow. But I don't scream and yell at someone I see wearing those shades of yellow, and call them names, and threaten things. My right to dislike yellow applies to me; it doesn't extend to others. Because somehow, through an incredible oversight on the part of the universe that still hasn't been rectified, no one made me a god. (I'm still crushed.)


https://www.facebook.com/ed.greenwood.142/posts/10156746522575453?pnref=story

More in my previous post.

Edited by - Baltas on 10 Apr 2016 17:00:40
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Shadowsoul
Senior Scribe

Ireland
648 Posts

Posted - 10 Apr 2016 :  18:52:26  Show Profile Send Shadowsoul a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

quote:
Originally posted by Shadowsoul

quote:
Originally posted by hashimashadoo




Shadowsoul, if people kept their negative reviews solely to the technical problems that SoD definitely has, then Beamdog wouldn't be taking the actions that it has been taking. Amber Scott's position on her writing is poor but that doesn't mean that you should avoid controversy by refusing to publish the material. No progress is ever made that way. What it boils down to in most cases are people who are overreacting to very minor writing issues.



There is a time and a place for controversial issues, Baldur's Gate is not one of them. When it comes to things like this you have to tread a fine line and use common sense. Somethings just do not belong and you have to accept that. Amber Scott decided to push her agenda and it backfired like hell. This is why such things are best avoided unless the time and place are appropriate.



Why is it that any time something other than heterosexuality is mentioned in any way, it's an agenda? People are people. Acknowledging that not everyone fits into one mold is not an agenda. Saying that all people should be treated the same is not an agenda.

Trying to punish people for being different, or marginalize them, or shove them off to one side to pretend they don't exist -- that's an agenda.



Well the biggest problem people have, mostly transgender, is not the inclusion of a transgender character. Some people seem awful quick to jump in with that reason in order to dismiss. The problem is the character's situation has nothing to do with the overall plot of the game. The character is not fleshed out in any way shape or form, the character is just planted and off you go.

“Fantasy is escapist, and that is its glory. If a soldier is imprisioned by the enemy, don't we consider it his duty to escape?. . .If we value the freedom of mind and soul, if we're partisans of liberty, then it's our plain duty to escape, and to take as many people with us as we can!”
#8213; J.R.R. Tolkien

*I endorse everything Dark Wizard says*.
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Delwa
Master of Realmslore

USA
1234 Posts

Posted - 10 Apr 2016 :  19:01:00  Show Profile  Visit Delwa's Homepage Send Delwa a Private Message  Reply with Quote
That doesn't even make sense as an argument. Minsc and Dynaheir (sp) have nothing to do with the protagonist's quest. Aerie's loss of her wings has nothing to do with the protagonist's quest. The only npc's in the original games that are tied to the protagonist are Jaheria and Khalid and Imoen. All the other characters have side issues, like Aerie's wings thing, but they don't tie into the story as anything greater than a side quest to gain xp and treasure.
Heck, Noober didn't even have a reason to be in the original game. Some people liked him, others hated him. There's plenty of precedent for characters that have "nothing to do with the overall plot," but we're apparently upset because this one is transgender?

- Delwa Aunglor of Tangled Trees
I am off to slay yon refrigerator and spoil it's horde. Go for the cheese, Boo!

"The Realms change; seldom at the speed desired of those who strive, but far too quickly for those who resist." - The Simbul, taken from the Forgotten Realms Campaign Conspectus

My Forging the Realms Archives (Google Drive pdfs)

Edited by - Delwa on 10 Apr 2016 19:01:52
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Shadowsoul
Senior Scribe

Ireland
648 Posts

Posted - 10 Apr 2016 :  19:09:30  Show Profile Send Shadowsoul a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Delwa

That doesn't even make sense as an argument. Minsc and Dynaheir (sp) have nothing to do with the protagonist's quest. Aerie's loss of her wings has nothing to do with the protagonist's quest. The only npc's in the original games that are tied to the protagonist are Jaheria and Khalid and Imoen. All the other characters have side issues, like Aerie's wings thing, but they don't tie into the story as anything greater than a side quest to gain xp and treasure.
Heck, Noober didn't even have a reason to be in the original game. Some people liked him, others hated him. There's plenty of precedent for characters that have "nothing to do with the overall plot," but we're apparently upset because this one is transgender?



Let me educate you on a few things with regards to being transgender. I have a good friend who is transgender, helped her pick out her new name, and what you don't want as a transgender is people thinking you are transgender. You want people to associate you as your new sex. My friend wants people to think of her as a woman, not a transgender. Your example of Minsc and Dyna is very poor because it's not on the same level. Mizhena is something unique to the game so she warrants a back story to go along with the current plot. This is why my friend doesn't like the character and thinks it's just something that was plopped in there just to make a statement. This isn't the first time Amber Scott has done something like this.

“Fantasy is escapist, and that is its glory. If a soldier is imprisioned by the enemy, don't we consider it his duty to escape?. . .If we value the freedom of mind and soul, if we're partisans of liberty, then it's our plain duty to escape, and to take as many people with us as we can!”
#8213; J.R.R. Tolkien

*I endorse everything Dark Wizard says*.
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Delwa
Master of Realmslore

USA
1234 Posts

Posted - 10 Apr 2016 :  19:15:31  Show Profile  Visit Delwa's Homepage Send Delwa a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Shadowsoul

quote:
Originally posted by Delwa

That doesn't even make sense as an argument. Minsc and Dynaheir (sp) have nothing to do with the protagonist's quest. Aerie's loss of her wings has nothing to do with the protagonist's quest. The only npc's in the original games that are tied to the protagonist are Jaheria and Khalid and Imoen. All the other characters have side issues, like Aerie's wings thing, but they don't tie into the story as anything greater than a side quest to gain xp and treasure.
Heck, Noober didn't even have a reason to be in the original game. Some people liked him, others hated him. There's plenty of precedent for characters that have "nothing to do with the overall plot," but we're apparently upset because this one is transgender?



Let me educate you on a few things with regards to being transgender. I have a good friend who is transgender, helped her pick out her new name, and what you don't want as a transgender is people thinking you are transgender. You want people to associate you as your new sex. My friend wants people to think of her as a woman, not a transgender. Your example of Minsc and Dyna is very poor because it's not on the same level. Mizhena is something unique to the game so she warrants a back story to go along with the current plot. This is why my friend doesn't like the character and thinks it's just something that was plopped in there just to make a statement. This isn't the first time Amber Scott has done something like this.


Well, while we're in the business of education, allow me to introduce the concept of diversity. No one person (or NPC, for that matter,) or group of persons can speak for the entirety of transgender people. I've seen people claiming a transgender identity posting reviews that are glad for the inclusion of this NPC. Your friend is not. End of story. All your personal anecdote proves is that some trans people are not happy with the representation, while others are. You can't satisfy everyone.

- Delwa Aunglor of Tangled Trees
I am off to slay yon refrigerator and spoil it's horde. Go for the cheese, Boo!

"The Realms change; seldom at the speed desired of those who strive, but far too quickly for those who resist." - The Simbul, taken from the Forgotten Realms Campaign Conspectus

My Forging the Realms Archives (Google Drive pdfs)
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Shadowsoul
Senior Scribe

Ireland
648 Posts

Posted - 10 Apr 2016 :  19:17:59  Show Profile Send Shadowsoul a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

quote:
Originally posted by Shadowsoul

quote:
Originally posted by hashimashadoo




Shadowsoul, if people kept their negative reviews solely to the technical problems that SoD definitely has, then Beamdog wouldn't be taking the actions that it has been taking. Amber Scott's position on her writing is poor but that doesn't mean that you should avoid controversy by refusing to publish the material. No progress is ever made that way. What it boils down to in most cases are people who are overreacting to very minor writing issues.



There is a time and a place for controversial issues, Baldur's Gate is not one of them. When it comes to things like this you have to tread a fine line and use common sense. Somethings just do not belong and you have to accept that. Amber Scott decided to push her agenda and it backfired like hell. This is why such things are best avoided unless the time and place are appropriate.



Why is it that any time something other than heterosexuality is mentioned in any way, it's an agenda? People are people. Acknowledging that not everyone fits into one mold is not an agenda. Saying that all people should be treated the same is not an agenda.

Trying to punish people for being different, or marginalize them, or shove them off to one side to pretend they don't exist -- that's an agenda.



And why is every time something like this gets a dose of true criticism it is met with basically that person is just a "homophobe" and just "scared of being different"?

Amber Scott is known for her agenda pushing and this isn't the first time. When ever she adds something like this, she doesn't give it depth or anything, she just drops it in there and there you go.

You have to understand that there are a lot of people out there who do have a problem with this for all the wrong reasons, but who are still customers. You then have to decide if you want to take the moral stance, at the cost of losing a lot of customers and revenue, or you don't add in things like that that could cause a ripple among the community and just keep it as controversy free as possible.

How do you think the black community would respond if they implemented a black character who did this one little line that let you know he/she was a black man/woman using a stereotype and not just have the character fully fleshed out? Well among the black gamers I know they wouldn't be too happy.

“Fantasy is escapist, and that is its glory. If a soldier is imprisioned by the enemy, don't we consider it his duty to escape?. . .If we value the freedom of mind and soul, if we're partisans of liberty, then it's our plain duty to escape, and to take as many people with us as we can!”
#8213; J.R.R. Tolkien

*I endorse everything Dark Wizard says*.
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Shadowsoul
Senior Scribe

Ireland
648 Posts

Posted - 10 Apr 2016 :  19:20:41  Show Profile Send Shadowsoul a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Delwa

quote:
Originally posted by Shadowsoul

quote:
Originally posted by Delwa

That doesn't even make sense as an argument. Minsc and Dynaheir (sp) have nothing to do with the protagonist's quest. Aerie's loss of her wings has nothing to do with the protagonist's quest. The only npc's in the original games that are tied to the protagonist are Jaheria and Khalid and Imoen. All the other characters have side issues, like Aerie's wings thing, but they don't tie into the story as anything greater than a side quest to gain xp and treasure.
Heck, Noober didn't even have a reason to be in the original game. Some people liked him, others hated him. There's plenty of precedent for characters that have "nothing to do with the overall plot," but we're apparently upset because this one is transgender?



Let me educate you on a few things with regards to being transgender. I have a good friend who is transgender, helped her pick out her new name, and what you don't want as a transgender is people thinking you are transgender. You want people to associate you as your new sex. My friend wants people to think of her as a woman, not a transgender. Your example of Minsc and Dyna is very poor because it's not on the same level. Mizhena is something unique to the game so she warrants a back story to go along with the current plot. This is why my friend doesn't like the character and thinks it's just something that was plopped in there just to make a statement. This isn't the first time Amber Scott has done something like this.


Well, while we're in the business of education, allow me to introduce the concept of diversity. No one person (or NPC, for that matter,) or group of persons can speak for the entirety of transgender people. I've seen people claiming a transgender identity posting reviews that are glad for the inclusion of this NPC. Your friend is not. End of story. All your personal anecdote proves is that some trans people are not happy with the representation, while others are. You can't satisfy everyone.



So let me educate you a little further by stepping back and asking you to take a big look at everything so far.

Has all this been worth it in the end? Look at all the negative attention that has been brought about because of this. Wouldn't it have been better if they had just avoided this sort of thing?


“Fantasy is escapist, and that is its glory. If a soldier is imprisioned by the enemy, don't we consider it his duty to escape?. . .If we value the freedom of mind and soul, if we're partisans of liberty, then it's our plain duty to escape, and to take as many people with us as we can!”
#8213; J.R.R. Tolkien

*I endorse everything Dark Wizard says*.
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Delwa
Master of Realmslore

USA
1234 Posts

Posted - 10 Apr 2016 :  19:30:00  Show Profile  Visit Delwa's Homepage Send Delwa a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Shadowsoul

quote:
Originally posted by Delwa

quote:
Originally posted by Shadowsoul

quote:
Originally posted by Delwa

That doesn't even make sense as an argument. Minsc and Dynaheir (sp) have nothing to do with the protagonist's quest. Aerie's loss of her wings has nothing to do with the protagonist's quest. The only npc's in the original games that are tied to the protagonist are Jaheria and Khalid and Imoen. All the other characters have side issues, like Aerie's wings thing, but they don't tie into the story as anything greater than a side quest to gain xp and treasure.
Heck, Noober didn't even have a reason to be in the original game. Some people liked him, others hated him. There's plenty of precedent for characters that have "nothing to do with the overall plot," but we're apparently upset because this one is transgender?



Let me educate you on a few things with regards to being transgender. I have a good friend who is transgender, helped her pick out her new name, and what you don't want as a transgender is people thinking you are transgender. You want people to associate you as your new sex. My friend wants people to think of her as a woman, not a transgender. Your example of Minsc and Dyna is very poor because it's not on the same level. Mizhena is something unique to the game so she warrants a back story to go along with the current plot. This is why my friend doesn't like the character and thinks it's just something that was plopped in there just to make a statement. This isn't the first time Amber Scott has done something like this.


Well, while we're in the business of education, allow me to introduce the concept of diversity. No one person (or NPC, for that matter,) or group of persons can speak for the entirety of transgender people. I've seen people claiming a transgender identity posting reviews that are glad for the inclusion of this NPC. Your friend is not. End of story. All your personal anecdote proves is that some trans people are not happy with the representation, while others are. You can't satisfy everyone.



So let me educate you a little further by stepping back and asking you to take a big look at everything so far.

Has all this been worth it in the end? Look at all the negative attention that has been brought about because of this. Wouldn't it have been better if they had just avoided this sort of thing?




Well, let's take that a step further back. If the people crying fowl because a character didn't fit exactly what they wanted had instead said something more to the effect of, "nice try, we appreciate the attempt, but it could be a lot better," then they would have come away not looking like a bunch of crybabies to half the people watching this unfold.
It's just like working in a business. If you're trying to train a new employee, you praise them for their effort, but simultaneously show them how they can improve. You don't bash them over the head with the one thing they did wrong. Such bashing kills creativity and a desire to continue.

- Delwa Aunglor of Tangled Trees
I am off to slay yon refrigerator and spoil it's horde. Go for the cheese, Boo!

"The Realms change; seldom at the speed desired of those who strive, but far too quickly for those who resist." - The Simbul, taken from the Forgotten Realms Campaign Conspectus

My Forging the Realms Archives (Google Drive pdfs)
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
30431 Posts

Posted - 10 Apr 2016 :  20:07:30  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Shadowsoul


Has all this been worth it in the end? Look at all the negative attention that has been brought about because of this. Wouldn't it have been better if they had just avoided this sort of thing?





Let's just not have a game at all, since it can't please everyone.

And before using the word agenda again, I want to see some proof of it. I see a lot of people decrying things they disagree with, and they all keep saying it's an agenda from the other side. And yet, the only agenda I've ever seen is people just wanting to live their lives.

So if you're going to accuse someone of having an agenda and pushing it on others, back it up. Put some proof out there. Otherwise knock it off, because it's a dismissive and insulting thing to say.

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Tanthalas
Senior Scribe

Portugal
483 Posts

Posted - 10 Apr 2016 :  20:35:28  Show Profile Send Tanthalas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I think the amount of attention such a minor thing is getting is ridiculous.

I'm a lot more concerned about changes to Jaheira's personality (and to a lesser extent Safana since I never used her much) than a couple of lines from a random NPC saying they're transgender.

I haven't played SoD yet, but it kind of annoys me when the new writer describes Jaheira as being a "nagging wife" and wanting to change that (and Safana too) but completely ignores all the stereotypical males in the game. It's like the female characters have to be perfect but it's ok to keep weakling, dumb, crazy and murderous male characters around. Jaheira nagging Khalid is also just a part of her character.

But maybe the actual written text isn't bad.

Sir Markham pointed out, drinking another brandy. "A chap who can point at you and say 'die' has the distinct advantage".

Edited by - Tanthalas on 10 Apr 2016 20:36:20
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Baltas
Senior Scribe

Poland
497 Posts

Posted - 10 Apr 2016 :  21:17:19  Show Profile Send Baltas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Tanthalas

I think the amount of attention such a minor thing is getting is ridiculous.

I'm a lot more concerned about changes to Jaheira's personality (and to a lesser extent Safana since I never used her much) than a couple of lines from a random NPC saying they're transgender.

I haven't played SoD yet, but it kind of annoys me when the new writer describes Jaheira as being a "nagging wife" and wanting to change that (and Safana too) but completely ignores all the stereotypical males in the game. It's like the female characters have to be perfect but it's ok to keep weakling, dumb, crazy and murderous male characters around. Jaheira nagging Khalid is also just a part of her character.

But maybe the actual written text isn't bad.



That's a very good point Tanthalas. From What I heard, the changes done to Jaheira, are less overt, and better recieved than those with Safana.
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Purple Dragon Knight
Master of Realmslore

Canada
1796 Posts

Posted - 11 Apr 2016 :  03:23:04  Show Profile  Click to see Purple Dragon Knight's MSN Messenger address Send Purple Dragon Knight a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Kumbaya people. Kumbaya. Freedom of expression died with the internet and mass-reach social media? Kum... baya? Ideas are now judged, juried and executioned instantly? naw...
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Baltas
Senior Scribe

Poland
497 Posts

Posted - 11 Apr 2016 :  10:51:09  Show Profile Send Baltas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Well, I think Wooly we shouldn't be so harsh to Shadowsoul.

Also, another thing, while I do agree the customers have a rights to judge, from what I saw, with scoring of Siege of Dragonspear, there are few problems. First, many scored the game as the absolute minimum score possible, which is rather reserved for a game that flat out fails at everything, giving the lowest score en masse, is a "artificial" way of scoring the game down, and may be eve seen as unethical. Even if we get all the flaws, I doubt Siege of Dragonspear desrves a score lower than 5/10, to give a example of scale.
Second, many who gave this very low, often possible lowest minimum scores, haven't even played the game. Which is why I think Beamdof adresses this issue.

Somewhat related, about the bugs, people report having many of them, or near none, so it's strange. I guess it may be because the game's engine is rebuilt from such an old engine, and may because of that react differently on many machines, with not only various operating systems, but also various device drivers.
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
30431 Posts

Posted - 11 Apr 2016 :  11:14:11  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
What's harsh about wanting someone to offer proof of their statement that "I know why this person did this, and the reason is X"? What's harsh about being irked by the use of a dismissive and insulting phrase?

Candlekeep Forums Moderator

Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com
-- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct

Editor and scribe for The Candlekeep Compendium

I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen!
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