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Federicocap
Acolyte

Argentina
6 Posts

Posted - 20 Apr 2016 :  00:13:50  Show Profile Send Federicocap a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by CorellonsDevout

Don't worry, I'm not hating on you. But RAS also created Zak and Vierna (sp?), so even by his own standards, he implied Drizzt wasn't the only unique drow. Clearly, there are others. If he truly wanted Drizzt unique, then he should have made Zak evil. And if RAS paid any attention at all to Realms fans, he would realize Eilistraee and Vhaeraun are just as popular as Drizzt, if not more so.





I don't think the problem here is there being other good drows (He mentione and has written plenty of "good" drows) but drows that have rejected completely the spider queen. Sure, Zak and Vierna were "Good", but the only one to scape from the ways of the spider queen was Drizzt, that was what made him unique.
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Irennan
Great Reader

Italy
3802 Posts

Posted - 20 Apr 2016 :  00:16:35  Show Profile Send Irennan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Federicocap

quote:
Originally posted by CorellonsDevout

Don't worry, I'm not hating on you. But RAS also created Zak and Vierna (sp?), so even by his own standards, he implied Drizzt wasn't the only unique drow. Clearly, there are others. If he truly wanted Drizzt unique, then he should have made Zak evil. And if RAS paid any attention at all to Realms fans, he would realize Eilistraee and Vhaeraun are just as popular as Drizzt, if not more so.



I don't think the problem here is there being other good drows (He mentione and has written plenty of "good" drows) but drows that have rejected completely the spider queen. Sure, Zak and Vierna were "Good", but the only one to scape from the ways of the spider queen was Drizzt, that was what made him unique.



Again, no. Drizzt is unique because of his choices, experiences etc (just like every other character is, but I've already said this in another post). Frankly, the drow as a whole should have given Lolth the middle finger since millennias, given how they are treated. It's not about ''evil'', it's about being limited, treated like crap, forced to self-denial. It's stupid that in 10k+ years, only one single dude ever thought to do that. It's even more so if you consider how the drow came to be.

Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things.

Edited by - Irennan on 20 Apr 2016 00:19:29
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Federicocap
Acolyte

Argentina
6 Posts

Posted - 20 Apr 2016 :  00:23:24  Show Profile Send Federicocap a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Irennan

quote:
Originally posted by Federicocap

quote:
Originally posted by CorellonsDevout

Don't worry, I'm not hating on you. But RAS also created Zak and Vierna (sp?), so even by his own standards, he implied Drizzt wasn't the only unique drow. Clearly, there are others. If he truly wanted Drizzt unique, then he should have made Zak evil. And if RAS paid any attention at all to Realms fans, he would realize Eilistraee and Vhaeraun are just as popular as Drizzt, if not more so.



I don't think the problem here is there being other good drows (He mentione and has written plenty of "good" drows) but drows that have rejected completely the spider queen. Sure, Zak and Vierna were "Good", but the only one to scape from the ways of the spider queen was Drizzt, that was what made him unique.



Again, no. Drizzt is unique because of his choices, experiences etc (just like every other character is, but I've already said this in another post). Frankly, the drow as a whole should have given Lolth the middle finger since millennias, given how they are treated. It's not about ''evil'', it's about being limited, treated like crap, forced to self-denial. It's stupid that in 10k+ years, only one single dude ever thought to do that. It's even more so if you consider how the drow came to be.



Yeah you said so in another post, my bad.
And again, I feel we are speaking in two different angles here. You are absolutely right about Drizzt and Elistrae speaking in the realms reality, Ellistrae being there does not diminish Drizzt in any way whatsoever. I'm refering to the real life situation, where (even if it was in Ed's own world) suddenly a good drow goddes popped out of nowhere.

Now regarding the 10k years, yeah, I'm with you, the drows should have said "BITE ME" to Lloth a long, long time ago. But hey, what can I say. And regarding other good drows across the millenia, I would bet that there were thousands of good drows. But Alas, Drizzt was the first good one published, and a Ranger at that! GWAERON WINDSTORM FOR THE WIN! (original patron deity of Drizzt!)
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Irennan
Great Reader

Italy
3802 Posts

Posted - 20 Apr 2016 :  00:31:57  Show Profile Send Irennan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Man, why should the fact that Drizzt was published first block any further possible development for the drow (especially if makes sense from an in-universe perspective)? Do you realize that if you extended that to other characters, no one would ever do anything?

Also, in case you missed my other post, Eilistraee is not ''bam, all of sudden''. Yes, she was published after, but everything becomes ''bam, all of sudden'' if you look at the matter like that.

quote:
Quite honestly, if Drizzt was the only good drow, it'd be far fetched and cheap IMO, because of the reasons that I've already explained in this thread. His uniqueness is also not in being a ''good drow'', but in his own character, choices, experiences and so on. He's not a reverse stereotype. Again, characters are not race/aling/class--or just because Bob has made a goodd row, no one should be able to do that?

Besides, Eilistraee was created by Ed before she was published. He created Eilistraee for his own Realms, because she is part of how he envisions the drow there. If you take a look at the history of the race in the setting, Eilistraee fits extremely well, just as does Vhaeraun. She was not ''tacked on'', but has her well defined role in the setting (and really, it's not like it could be argued, given that it is what the creator of the setting envisioned).

Even setting that aside, Eilistraee and Drizzt are different kind of characters, with radically different goals. Eilistraee's existence doesn't diminsh what Drizzt had to achieve.


So, even from *our* perspective, the only thing that they have in common is being good. They don't overlap, as Drizzt has never really cared to fight for his people, he always tried to live his own life with his friends and away from Lolth, fighting against all the crap that was throws at him, and following his own moral code (so helping the needy, and so on).

Eilistraee is instead a mother goddess for the whole drow race, that calls to all of them, makes them rediscover all that is beautiful in life and that they were denied, and fights so that they can be free to forge their place in the world (and has been doing that for millennia, sacrificing a lot for that).

Idk how could anyone ever think that these concepts overlap. Eilistraee is part of the setting, an integral part, it's just not right that she is ignored, that WotC decided to ignore all that she (and the whole drow pantheon) stand for, and remove them just to make Drizzt ''more special'' (which it didn't). And that now her resurrection (that of her brother and of the whole pantheon) is just a sentence, after all of that. C'mon... they're Ed's work, they should be respected like Bob's work is.

Also, you're the first Drizzt fan that I've seen complaining about her. Drizzt, Bob and those who like Drizzt gain absolutely nothing from her being trashed like that, so I really can't figure out all this hostility :/

Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things.

Edited by - Irennan on 20 Apr 2016 00:43:14
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Irennan
Great Reader

Italy
3802 Posts

Posted - 20 Apr 2016 :  00:40:04  Show Profile Send Irennan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
At this point, I might even think that the misandrism that was attributed to her priestesses, and her goal being completely misrepresented (and hugely diminished in value) in the LP novels, was just WotC trying to consolidate Drizzt as the most special of the special drow. Which would be sad...

Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things.
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader

USA
2708 Posts

Posted - 20 Apr 2016 :  00:54:30  Show Profile Send CorellonsDevout a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Bob is writing in a shared world, so he should realize that Drizzt being a "special snowflake" is far-fetched and a bit arrogant. Drizzt is awesome, yes, but E, V, and the other goodly drow compliment him more than they do diminish him.

Plus, RAS initially created Drizzt as a supporting character, but he became so popular RAS made him the main protagonist. But if he was initially meant to be just in a supporting role, then Bob shouldn't hate on Eilistraee and claim she takes away from Drizzt.

Sweet water and light laughter
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Federicocap
Acolyte

Argentina
6 Posts

Posted - 20 Apr 2016 :  01:21:02  Show Profile Send Federicocap a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Irennan

Man, why should the fact that Drizzt was published first block any further possible development for the drow (especially if makes sense from an in-universe perspective)? Do you realize that if you extended that to other characters, no one would ever do anything?

Also, in case you missed my other post, Eilistraee is not ''bam, all of sudden''. Yes, she was published after, but everything becomes ''bam, all of sudden'' if you look at the matter like that.

quote:
Quite honestly, if Drizzt was the only good drow, it'd be far fetched and cheap IMO, because of the reasons that I've already explained in this thread. His uniqueness is also not in being a ''good drow'', but in his own character, choices, experiences and so on. He's not a reverse stereotype. Again, characters are not race/aling/class--or just because Bob has made a goodd row, no one should be able to do that?

Besides, Eilistraee was created by Ed before she was published. He created Eilistraee for his own Realms, because she is part of how he envisions the drow there. If you take a look at the history of the race in the setting, Eilistraee fits extremely well, just as does Vhaeraun. She was not ''tacked on'', but has her well defined role in the setting (and really, it's not like it could be argued, given that it is what the creator of the setting envisioned).

Even setting that aside, Eilistraee and Drizzt are different kind of characters, with radically different goals. Eilistraee's existence doesn't diminsh what Drizzt had to achieve.


So, even from *our* perspective, the only thing that they have in common is being good. They don't overlap, as Drizzt has never really cared to fight for his people, he always tried to live his own life with his friends and away from Lolth, fighting against all the crap that was throws at him, and following his own moral code (so helping the needy, and so on).

Eilistraee is instead a mother goddess for the whole drow race, that calls to all of them, makes them rediscover all that is beautiful in life and that they were denied, and fights so that they can be free to forge their place in the world (and has been doing that for millennia, sacrificing a lot for that).

Idk how could anyone ever think that these concepts overlap. Eilistraee is part of the setting, an integral part, it's just not right that she is ignored, that WotC decided to ignore all that she (and the whole drow pantheon) stand for, and remove them just to make Drizzt ''more special'' (which it didn't). And that now her resurrection (that of her brother and of the whole pantheon) is just a sentence, after all of that. C'mon... they're Ed's work, they should be respected like Bob's work is.

Also, you're the first Drizzt fan that I've seen complaining about her. Drizzt, Bob and those who like Drizzt gain absolutely nothing from her being trashed like that, so I really can't figure out all this hostility :/



I think you are not getting my point. I do like Elistrae, I enjoyed Liriel books, LOVED war of the spider queen, and lady penitent ( the Writting was a bit lame though) I got really sad when Ellistrae died, and was quite happy when she returned (most for Vhaerum I have to admit)

Bob stated that he would kill her if she appeared in one of his books. I'm just saying what I personally believe is that Bob does not like her.
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Irennan
Great Reader

Italy
3802 Posts

Posted - 20 Apr 2016 :  01:33:13  Show Profile Send Irennan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I perceived it rather differently, but I must have misunderstood you (sorry about that). It's sad to read that he said that (although he can't take such decisions, he couldn't even kill Drizzt w/o WotC's permission). Interaction between Eilistraee and her followers and Drizzt would be something interesting to read about, it's a waste that Bob refuses to take in account such a huge part of what the drow are in the Realms.

However, while I can understand that he doesn't want his characters to have anything to do with Eilistraee and Vhaeraun, it's just wrong that a whole race is warped by this one character, to the point of whole parts being removed for something as (lets be honest) trivial as making a character ''more special''--although Idk if Bob had any input in that. It's a shared world, its depth goes well beyond a few characters (not that Drizzt doesn't have depth, far from it, just that there's so much more to the drow than Drizzt and Lolth's playthings. Those deities, faiths and all that they stand for shouldn't wither because someone at WotC is afraid that Drizzt's special-ness would be reduced by developments that just make sense, story-wise, and by other characters that enrich the setting).

Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things.

Edited by - Irennan on 20 Apr 2016 01:36:15
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Federicocap
Acolyte

Argentina
6 Posts

Posted - 20 Apr 2016 :  01:50:15  Show Profile Send Federicocap a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Irennan

I perceived it rather differently, but I must have misunderstood you (sorry about that). It's sad to read that he said that (although he can't take such decisions, he couldn't even kill Drizzt w/o WotC's permission). Interaction between Eilistraee and her followers and Drizzt would be something interesting to read about, it's a waste that Bob refuses to take in account such a huge part of what the drow are in the Realms.

However, while I can understand that he doesn't want his characters to have anything to do with Eilistraee and Vhaeraun, it's just wrong that a whole race is warped by this one character, to the point of whole parts being removed for something as (lets be honest) trivial as making a character ''more special''--although Idk if Bob had any input in that. It's a shared world, its depth goes well beyond a few characters (not that Drizzt doesn't have depth, far from it, just that there's so much more to the drow than Drizzt and Lolth's playthings. Those deities, faiths and all that they stand for shouldn't wither because someone at WotC is afraid that Drizzt's special-ness would be reduced by developments that just make sense, story-wise, and by other characters that enrich the setting).



I agree with you, all of what you said in fact, but please, remember that this are just my personal opinions about why Bob might have said that. do not take them to be the actual reason behind Bob's actions. Perhaps there are other things behind the curtain of WotC that we do not know.
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sno4wy
Senior Scribe

USA
466 Posts

Posted - 20 Apr 2016 :  02:39:13  Show Profile Send sno4wy a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Federicocap
There are plenty of drows with different variations of good in Salvatore´s books. Although I hated what he did with Tos'Un



True, but look what Bob did with them. Zaknafein didn't last long, Vierna wasn't truly good in the early books, and then the whole Tos'un completely 180. In Maestro Vierna was retconned or simply warped in Drizzt's inflicted mind, but I always understood her to have had that potential to be better. However, potential never realized is nothing in practice.
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Sothron
Acolyte

16 Posts

Posted - 23 Apr 2016 :  06:30:15  Show Profile Send Sothron a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Finally finished the book last night. I was thoroughly disappointed. Talked to another very long time fan earlier tonight and I am glad to see we had the same problems with the book.

1. Where's all the sex coming from? I am no prude and can enjoy and appreciate any element that furthers a story or plot point. One of the constants of Bob's Drizzt series has been a very light touch on sexual matters. In this book...wow. You had Catti Brie seemingly obsessed with having sex with possibly the oldest drow in FR for absolutely no reason. Gromph, a racist like the overwhelming majority of most drow, suddenly wants to have sex with her and puts one mental suggestion that apparently is all that CB needs in order to lust after him. It made absolutely no sense.

Penelope Harpell came across in earlier books as some representation of a sexual moral compass outside of Judeo-Christian ideals of monogamy. In this book? She's reduced to leering and lusting after several people, CB included, for absolutely no reason. Her good moments of trying to establish why her sexual morality is her own business got thrown out the wayside when the character itself basically comes across as a horny teenager willing to jump anything within reach.

And then the weird and absurd: the avatar of Lolth (you guys do know that's what "Yvonnel" is, right?) is apparently so hot her own mother, who I might add only somewhat recently gave BIRTH to her, is ready to jump her bones. Not to mention literally every single sentient being that "Yvonnel" comes into contact with. Really Bob? Even her Mom wants to screw her? Eh....

The sex that really blew me away at how it was treated was the repeated gang raping of Dahlia by Tiago and the other drow in that House. Again, I can appreciate horrible acts of sexual violence if there is some kind of merit to it in terms of the story. But this? There was nothing. Dahlia gets used over and over again by apparently any drow male or female that wants to rape a woman that literally can't say no or even know what's happening to her.

The person that should have killed Tiago was Dahlia. Easily. But no, she gets nothing except repeatedly raped and has to be rescued while still being mentally out of it thanks to the mind flayer. No Kill Bill moment for her. Her rapists go free and it wasn't even brought up **at all** that there was really anything wrong with what happened to her. Unreal.

2. "Yvonell" or as I like to call it "The Mary Sue to End All Mary Sues" was just too much. I mean seriously I was waiting for her to juggle beholders while singing "And the Band Played Waltzing Demogorgon" at the end of the book. She is clearly the avatar of Lolth and why Bob didn't make that more clear makes her insanely overpowered actions that more laughable. She can do anything folks! She slices! She dices! She makes up psionic and arcane magic new rules at a whim! Hell she can even cure Drider-ism, that most dang nabbit of colds you can get as a man while wandering scenic Menzoberranzan.

3. This is how Tiago goes out? Really? This guy has been built up over how many books now just to go out like that? Pshaw. What a complete waste of a character. This fight lasted I think 3 pages in the book? And it ended up like, to borrow a pro wrestling meme, LOL CENA er DRIZZT WINS! where the good guy takes all the damage, gets his ass kinda handed to him but somehow makes one move at the very end and that's the end of the match folks. Unreal.

4. This has been touched upon in several posts but how can you have the other drow deities never once show up in the Drizzt books? I don't mean as avatars, I mean like they simply don't exist. As if the only real drow city we've ever really seen in the books somehow has no knowledge of all these other drow gods. It would be like all over Faerun the only god you hear about is Tempus in the most popular book series but the lore books and other books talk about other gods like Talos, Bane, Tyr, etc. and yet all you get in the most popular series EVER is one god. Where's the deity beef Bob?

5. Apparently "Yvonnel" is the nicest freaking evil avatar ever. I give no help to Tiago, don't resurrect him after he dies and oh yeah, here, I'll just literally give you and all your friends back all your magical gear PLUS throw in Tiago's gear on top of that.

I can keep going but this book started off well but just went screwy. Did I mention the random Drizzt suddenly going crazy for NO REASON AT ALL and still not shaking it off even though Entreri clearly did? Unreal. This is a "jumping of the shark" book in a long series if I ever saw one. If the last book is indeed the last book then I can live with it. I've been there since The Crystal Shard was first released all the way back in the late 1980's and I've never missed a Drizzt book since. But man...if this is where the series is going then it is time to turn out the lights.
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DandelionClock
Seeker

67 Posts

Posted - 23 Apr 2016 :  15:51:14  Show Profile Send DandelionClock a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Sothron

Finally finished the book last night. I was thoroughly disappointed. Talked to another very long time fan earlier tonight and I am glad to see we had the same problems with the book.
(...)
The sex that really blew me away at how it was treated was the repeated gang raping of Dahlia by Tiago and the other drow in that House. Again, I can appreciate horrible acts of sexual violence if there is some kind of merit to it in terms of the story. But this? There was nothing. Dahlia gets used over and over again by apparently any drow male or female that wants to rape a woman that literally can't say no or even know what's happening to her.

The person that should have killed Tiago was Dahlia. Easily. But no, she gets nothing except repeatedly raped and has to be rescued while still being mentally out of it thanks to the mind flayer. No Kill Bill moment for her. Her rapists go free and it wasn't even brought up **at all** that there was really anything wrong with what happened to her. Unreal.
(...)



YES! THIS! The merit thing especially. There is *nothing* that can't be told as a story, I've seen rape stories unfold in cathartic ways (in fantasy), in impactful ways where the character just *remained a human being* instead of becoming everybody's rape doll, in ways to hurt to read but showed how terrible it was... and the character mattered.
But I this is not somnething I want to see used as a throwaway effect to show how perverted some people are, on a character that's apparently just being kept around as a plot device. In a horrible, undignified way. I am so glad to see it mentioned here for the first time.

It was bad enough Kimmuriel did that one or two books ago but this was...
....and no, "You see people killed in these books all the time, so this shouldn't upset you" doesn't work here for me.

There's a lot of killing, but you can kill and still be a good guy in these fantasy books, there are noble and bad reasons for it. So this doesn't in any way destroy a character, and is accepted as working outside or moral frame, in a way. But there's still the question if: How is it handled?

If you just killed a character off that we've seen being built up for several books, and in a horrible pointless and undignified way, I promise I would be questioning your writitng too. I was upset when it looked, for a book, like poor expendable Delly was just thrown away, for similar reasons. I was somewhat relieved when they made some effort to find her dead body and give her a decent burial. But that felt similar.

Same here, how is it handled? Does it have impact? Does the victim get to keep her dignity? How do other people in the books see it? Rape is used to illustrate someone is scum here, and that's all, it's a cheap move in a way. But the most disgusting thing is that I am left with the impression, on a meta level, that in Dahlia we're being presented with a character this just happens to. ALL THE TiME.

She already had that as THE defining thing in her back story. And now everybody does it in every book. KIMMURIEL DID IT! Detached, neutral evil Kimmuriel. No one seems to give a damn.

And we all know the author would not do this to Cattie Brie. Nope. With the evil psycho chick though...

And that is... well. Yeah. (Not that this char's character develoment wasn't cancelled already a few books ago.) It has the reek of "This doesn't happen to good people. Not to good people with a name, anyways."
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader

USA
2708 Posts

Posted - 23 Apr 2016 :  15:59:06  Show Profile Send CorellonsDevout a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Sothron

Finally finished the book last night. I was thoroughly disappointed. Talked to another very long time fan earlier tonight and I am glad to see we had the same problems with the book.

1. Where's all the sex coming from? I am no prude and can enjoy and appreciate any element that furthers a story or plot point. One of the constants of Bob's Drizzt series has been a very light touch on sexual matters. In this book...wow. You had Catti Brie seemingly obsessed with having sex with possibly the oldest drow in FR for absolutely no reason. Gromph, a racist like the overwhelming majority of most drow, suddenly wants to have sex with her and puts one mental suggestion that apparently is all that CB needs in order to lust after him. It made absolutely no sense.

Penelope Harpell came across in earlier books as some representation of a sexual moral compass outside of Judeo-Christian ideals of monogamy. In this book? She's reduced to leering and lusting after several people, CB included, for absolutely no reason. Her good moments of trying to establish why her sexual morality is her own business got thrown out the wayside when the character itself basically comes across as a horny teenager willing to jump anything within reach.

And then the weird and absurd: the avatar of Lolth (you guys do know that's what "Yvonnel" is, right?) is apparently so hot her own mother, who I might add only somewhat recently gave BIRTH to her, is ready to jump her bones. Not to mention literally every single sentient being that "Yvonnel" comes into contact with. Really Bob? Even her Mom wants to screw her? Eh....

The sex that really blew me away at how it was treated was the repeated gang raping of Dahlia by Tiago and the other drow in that House. Again, I can appreciate horrible acts of sexual violence if there is some kind of merit to it in terms of the story. But this? There was nothing. Dahlia gets used over and over again by apparently any drow male or female that wants to rape a woman that literally can't say no or even know what's happening to her.

The person that should have killed Tiago was Dahlia. Easily. But no, she gets nothing except repeatedly raped and has to be rescued while still being mentally out of it thanks to the mind flayer. No Kill Bill moment for her. Her rapists go free and it wasn't even brought up **at all** that there was really anything wrong with what happened to her. Unreal.

2. "Yvonell" or as I like to call it "The Mary Sue to End All Mary Sues" was just too much. I mean seriously I was waiting for her to juggle beholders while singing "And the Band Played Waltzing Demogorgon" at the end of the book. She is clearly the avatar of Lolth and why Bob didn't make that more clear makes her insanely overpowered actions that more laughable. She can do anything folks! She slices! She dices! She makes up psionic and arcane magic new rules at a whim! Hell she can even cure Drider-ism, that most dang nabbit of colds you can get as a man while wandering scenic Menzoberranzan.

3. This is how Tiago goes out? Really? This guy has been built up over how many books now just to go out like that? Pshaw. What a complete waste of a character. This fight lasted I think 3 pages in the book? And it ended up like, to borrow a pro wrestling meme, LOL CENA er DRIZZT WINS! where the good guy takes all the damage, gets his ass kinda handed to him but somehow makes one move at the very end and that's the end of the match folks. Unreal.

4. This has been touched upon in several posts but how can you have the other drow deities never once show up in the Drizzt books? I don't mean as avatars, I mean like they simply don't exist. As if the only real drow city we've ever really seen in the books somehow has no knowledge of all these other drow gods. It would be like all over Faerun the only god you hear about is Tempus in the most popular book series but the lore books and other books talk about other gods like Talos, Bane, Tyr, etc. and yet all you get in the most popular series EVER is one god. Where's the deity beef Bob?

5. Apparently "Yvonnel" is the nicest freaking evil avatar ever. I give no help to Tiago, don't resurrect him after he dies and oh yeah, here, I'll just literally give you and all your friends back all your magical gear PLUS throw in Tiago's gear on top of that.

I can keep going but this book started off well but just went screwy. Did I mention the random Drizzt suddenly going crazy for NO REASON AT ALL and still not shaking it off even though Entreri clearly did? Unreal.



I agree with all this. The sex (I mean Cat and Gromph, really? Both of them are above that sort of thing). No mentioning of Eilistraee or Vhaeraun, Drizzt going cray cray. Yeah, I agree. The beginning of the book held promise, but the second half...I wanted to throw it.

Sweet water and light laughter
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Lamora
Seeker

USA
81 Posts

Posted - 23 Apr 2016 :  17:50:53  Show Profile Send Lamora a Private Message  Reply with Quote
The Yvonnel thing could easily be one of the most interesting in this book. Unfortunately, it only falls flat. I thought it pretty obvious as the book progressed that she was either a chosen of Lolth or a full on Avatar. I honestly don't even see a reason why Bob invented her. He already took most of the Eternal's memories to give to Quenthal, but he also had to create a baby with all her memories too. Its just a weird plot point all around. It really makes me question why if Lolth loved her so much, she didn't resurrect her 100 years ago because apparently at 1-2 years old Yvonnel is the most favored drow ever.

I also never understood how a surface elf was allowed to live in the City even with her brain messed up or the resurgence of House Do'urden. Baenre house should just fall. Bob keeps having the whole house do all these crazy things that make no sense what so ever to a reader or to the people in the story, yet they always get away with it. I am really hoping Hero just destroys the whole house and Menzo's power structure undergoes a huge change. I doubt that will happen though. They will probably be stronger than ever at the end of the next novel. I just don't get some of the plot points in recent novels. I liked the Hosttower/Gaunt stuff though Cattie/Gromph was weird to the point of stupid, but other things just boggle my mind.

My personal hope is that Bob continues to write 2 novels a year. One a Drizzt novel and the other novel exploring a new character within the realms. I always wished that someone would create a mage character like how Drizzt 'created' a swordsman. Have a book or two go through the years of training for an elven (drow or otherwise) mage and all the stuff that could go along with that and then tens of books exploring the many adventures of that mage. I would enjoy something like that... though I probably wouldn't really like a goody-twoshoes character like Drizzt. A mage like Jar or Entreri though would be very fun to read about.
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Irennan
Great Reader

Italy
3802 Posts

Posted - 23 Apr 2016 :  18:29:52  Show Profile Send Irennan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Lamora
I am really hoping Hero just destroys the whole house and Menzo's power structure undergoes a huge change. I doubt that will happen though. They will probably be stronger than ever at the end of the next novel



That's entirely up to WotC, and unless they change their mind about what they have already said, Menzo's power structure will kinda stay the same. In fact, I've been wondering what Drizzt will achieve in the last novel, considering that very little can actually change.

Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things.
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Tanthalas
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Portugal
508 Posts

Posted - 23 Apr 2016 :  20:11:41  Show Profile Send Tanthalas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by CorellonsDevout

Bob is writing in a shared world, so he should realize that Drizzt being a "special snowflake" is far-fetched and a bit arrogant. Drizzt is awesome, yes, but E, V, and the other goodly drow compliment him more than they do diminish him.


I don't think it's particularly fair to hate on RAS just because he doesn't use gods that you like in his stories.

It's not like he hasn't used gods of the Realms (unless he was the one who created Lolth, Mielliki, Tempus, Moradin, etc), or well-known characters of the setting (Alustriel).

Most Realms authors use their own characters and tend to shy away from using characters created by other authors. RAS shouldn't be singled out for something that pretty much all authors do.

Sir Markham pointed out, drinking another brandy. "A chap who can point at you and say 'die' has the distinct advantage".
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Tanthalas
Senior Scribe

Portugal
508 Posts

Posted - 23 Apr 2016 :  20:14:12  Show Profile Send Tanthalas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Sothron

3. This is how Tiago goes out? Really? This guy has been built up over how many books now just to go out like that? Pshaw. What a complete waste of a character. This fight lasted I think 3 pages in the book? And it ended up like, to borrow a pro wrestling meme, LOL CENA er DRIZZT WINS! where the good guy takes all the damage, gets his ass kinda handed to him but somehow makes one move at the very end and that's the end of the match folks. Unreal.


I disagree. Tiago had already been defeated by Drizzt more than once and had long outlived his usefulness to the story.

And I honestly don't think Tiago was handing Drizzt his ass, quite the contrary, I think Drizzt orchestrated the whole ending of the fighting. It was pretty awesome.

Sir Markham pointed out, drinking another brandy. "A chap who can point at you and say 'die' has the distinct advantage".
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Irennan
Great Reader

Italy
3802 Posts

Posted - 23 Apr 2016 :  20:34:28  Show Profile Send Irennan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Tanthalas
Most Realms authors use their own characters and tend to shy away from using characters created by other authors. RAS shouldn't be singled out for something that pretty much all authors do.



I don't think that he is being singled out for choosing who should appear in his stories. I think that it was more about his saying that he would kill Eilistraee if she appeared in his books. If that's actually true, it'd be like refusing to acknowledge a part of the setting, and an important element of the culture of the race he's writing about.

I don't think that it would have the same importance (or any importance at all), if we had as many novels as before. But now that the Realms are represented by 3 writers, that one of them is doing drow, is talking about ''hope'' for them, which has been E&V's goal since forever, a mention, a cameo, things like that (it would make no sense to ask for plot warping stuff) just to acknowledge them (since they fit in the scenario, and their return is huge) isn't unreasonable at all. But this has already been discussed, and there's no need to go there again.

Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things.

Edited by - Irennan on 23 Apr 2016 20:37:38
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Tasker Daze
Seeker

84 Posts

Posted - 23 Apr 2016 :  22:01:21  Show Profile Send Tasker Daze a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Federicocap

I read an interview to Salvatore (I think it was a question in Reddit actually) when they asked him about Ellistrae, and he said that the only reason he would put her in his books is to kill her.



wasn't he supposedly against the spellplague? if he really said that, he's using the same langauge those designers used "i don't like it, i'm going to destroy it."

.
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader

USA
2708 Posts

Posted - 23 Apr 2016 :  22:32:58  Show Profile Send CorellonsDevout a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Tanthalas

quote:
Originally posted by CorellonsDevout

Bob is writing in a shared world, so he should realize that Drizzt being a "special snowflake" is far-fetched and a bit arrogant. Drizzt is awesome, yes, but E, V, and the other goodly drow compliment him more than they do diminish him.


I don't think it's particularly fair to hate on RAS just because he doesn't use gods that you like in his stories.

It's not like he hasn't used gods of the Realms (unless he was the one who created Lolth, Mielliki, Tempus, Moradin, etc), or well-known characters of the setting (Alustriel).

Most Realms authors use their own characters and tend to shy away from using characters created by other authors. RAS shouldn't be singled out for something that pretty much all authors do.



OCS are fine. I love OCs. That isn't the point here. My point was that using Drizzt as the *only* beacon of hope is unrealistic considering E and V have been representing hope for the drow for centuries, but RAS made no mention of them. He treated it like only with the rebellion of Drizzt have drow "suddenly seen the light". That's the part that is far-fetched ando arrogant to me. It isn't that I hate Drizzt--in fact, I love him--and if he gives hope to drow, great, but he left his people behind years ago (his choice, and there is nothing wrong with that), while E and V, and by extension their followers, have been trying to aid the drow for centuries. My issue is the way it was approached and that Drizzt is still the "one special snowflake". As awesome as Drizzt is, he shouldn't represent all the struggling drow, not when there are others who do the same thing. I'm not saying E and V should take center stage here, but an acknowledgement of what they and their followers have done would have been nice, and this thread is evidence I am not the only Drizzt fan who feels this way.

Sweet water and light laughter
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Sothron
Acolyte

16 Posts

Posted - 23 Apr 2016 :  22:56:51  Show Profile Send Sothron a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I'm glad at least one other fellow fan was bothered by the use of Dahlia as nothing but rape fantasy in the last few books this one in particular. It just absolutely disgusted me to see a character that had potential and development like her get used in such a throwaway manner.

I absolutely agree he would never do this to precious little snowflake CB. I don't understand why Bob spent time making and developing Dahlia simply to use her in such a fashion. It feels as a reader that between her and the CB/Penelope talks that a female is only supposed to have sex with one guy, ever, and any woman that wants to express her sexuality differently is a very bad immoral person that deserves to be raped or treated like filth.

I might add that I am not a shrinking violet to how rape or sex can be used in a story. But this...this is just wrong. I don't like being asked as a reader to invest into characters only to have inhuman things done to them but only as a plot device to make some scummy third tier bad guy look even more scummy. It boggles the mind that Dahlia AT LEAST did not get her head put back together enough for her to get revenge on Tiago for all of those rapes let alone all the other drow that raped her. I mean is rape just something that happens to bad girls and they should live with it? That's kinda the message that Bob puts out there in bold letters.
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Irennan
Great Reader

Italy
3802 Posts

Posted - 23 Apr 2016 :  23:02:06  Show Profile Send Irennan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by CorellonsDevout
"suddenly seen the light". That's the part that is far-fetched ando arrogant to me.



Wait, are those the exact words used?

Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things.
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Sothron
Acolyte

16 Posts

Posted - 23 Apr 2016 :  23:02:14  Show Profile Send Sothron a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Tanthalas

quote:
Originally posted by CorellonsDevout

Bob is writing in a shared world, so he should realize that Drizzt being a "special snowflake" is far-fetched and a bit arrogant. Drizzt is awesome, yes, but E, V, and the other goodly drow compliment him more than they do diminish him.


I don't think it's particularly fair to hate on RAS just because he doesn't use gods that you like in his stories.

It's not like he hasn't used gods of the Realms (unless he was the one who created Lolth, Mielliki, Tempus, Moradin, etc), or well-known characters of the setting (Alustriel).

Most Realms authors use their own characters and tend to shy away from using characters created by other authors. RAS shouldn't be singled out for something that pretty much all authors do.



No one is asking him to run around with other drow gods as characters but to NEVER mention them or show with ANY influence in the ONLY major book series left thanks to WotC? C'mon now. This is just insanity.
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader

USA
2708 Posts

Posted - 23 Apr 2016 :  23:19:11  Show Profile Send CorellonsDevout a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Sothron

I'm glad at least one other fellow fan was bothered by the use of Dahlia as nothing but rape fantasy in the last few books this one in particular. It just absolutely disgusted me to see a character that had potential and development like her get used in such a throwaway manner.

I absolutely agree he would never do this to precious little snowflake CB. I don't understand why Bob spent time making and developing Dahlia simply to use her in such a fashion. It feels as a reader that between her and the CB/Penelope talks that a female is only supposed to have sex with one guy, ever, and any woman that wants to express her sexuality differently is a very bad immoral person that deserves to be raped or treated like filth.



Actually, I got the opposite impression. It seemed to me that Penelope was encouraging CB (and thus the reader) to be polyamorous. I am not judging those who are polyamorous, but to me, it seemed as if Penelope, a married woman, was encouraging Catti to...sleep around while her husband's away. Now, there is a difference between polyamory and just sleeping with whomever, but Cat, who is married and in love with Drizzt, and who never before thought of sleeping with another, has an argument with Penelope, in part because suddenly...Gromph is sexy. I mean, really? The whole thing made me angry for a number of reasons.

@Irennan: lol no, those weren't the exact words. Those were just the ones I chose to use (though Vs use the shadows, but I was just using them to make a point.

Sweet water and light laughter
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Sothron
Acolyte

16 Posts

Posted - 23 Apr 2016 :  23:20:47  Show Profile Send Sothron a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by CorellonsDevout

quote:
Originally posted by Tanthalas

quote:
Originally posted by CorellonsDevout

Bob is writing in a shared world, so he should realize that Drizzt being a "special snowflake" is far-fetched and a bit arrogant. Drizzt is awesome, yes, but E, V, and the other goodly drow compliment him more than they do diminish him.


I don't think it's particularly fair to hate on RAS just because he doesn't use gods that you like in his stories.

It's not like he hasn't used gods of the Realms (unless he was the one who created Lolth, Mielliki, Tempus, Moradin, etc), or well-known characters of the setting (Alustriel).

Most Realms authors use their own characters and tend to shy away from using characters created by other authors. RAS shouldn't be singled out for something that pretty much all authors do.



OCS are fine. I love OCs. That isn't the point here. My point was that using Drizzt as the *only* beacon of hope is unrealistic considering E and V have been representing hope for the drow for centuries, but RAS made no mention of them. He treated it like only with the rebellion of Drizzt have drow "suddenly seen the light". That's the part that is far-fetched ando arrogant to me. It isn't that I hate Drizzt--in fact, I love him--and if he gives hope to drow, great, but he left his people behind years ago (his choice, and there is nothing wrong with that), while E and V, and by extension their followers, have been trying to aid the drow for centuries. My issue is the way it was approached and that Drizzt is still the "one special snowflake". As awesome as Drizzt is, he shouldn't represent all the struggling drow, not when there are others who do the same thing. I'm not saying E and V should take center stage here, but an acknowledgement of what they and their followers have done would have been nice, and this thread is evidence I am not the only Drizzt fan who feels this way.



You are most definitely not the only fan that feels this way. It has boggled my mind for years that Bob is allowed to freely ignore the other drow deities and cultures. His series is in effect the entire FR setting to most fans. Having someone just completely ignore the setting and rules as much as he does flies in the face of common sense.
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CorellonsDevout
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USA
2708 Posts

Posted - 23 Apr 2016 :  23:24:25  Show Profile Send CorellonsDevout a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Exactly *nods* I enjoy the books, but more of a "Realms feel" would be nice.

Sweet water and light laughter
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Irennan
Great Reader

Italy
3802 Posts

Posted - 23 Apr 2016 :  23:32:54  Show Profile Send Irennan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by CorellonsDevout

@Irennan: lol no, those weren't the exact words. Those were just the ones I chose to use (though Vs use the shadows, but I was just using them to make a point.



Well, that's a relief. I would have been hugely let down if something like the drow ''suddenly'' realizing that they can choose had made it into the published version of the book.

Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things.
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader

USA
2708 Posts

Posted - 24 Apr 2016 :  00:02:12  Show Profile Send CorellonsDevout a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Well, it was sudden in the way it was presented. Drizzt's rebellion suddenly brings hope to drow, but "suddenly seen the light" weren't words that were actually used.

Sweet water and light laughter
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sno4wy
Senior Scribe

USA
466 Posts

Posted - 24 Apr 2016 :  01:04:16  Show Profile Send sno4wy a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by CorellonsDevout

Actually, I got the opposite impression. It seemed to me that Penelope was encouraging CB (and thus the reader) to be polyamorous. I am not judging those who are polyamorous, but to me, it seemed as if Penelope, a married woman, was encouraging Catti to...sleep around while her husband's away. Now, there is a difference between polyamory and just sleeping with whomever, but Cat, who is married and in love with Drizzt, and who never before thought of sleeping with another, has an argument with Penelope, in part because suddenly...Gromph is sexy. I mean, really? The whole thing made me angry for a number of reasons.


I've never liked the CotH to begin with, and I've been liking them less and less with each new installment in the series. They're supposed to be the heroes, the good guys, except the way they behave and the stuff they do often puts question to how "good" or "heroic" those things are.

Before I make my next point, I want to make it clear that how each person handles his or her relationship is none of my business, nor do I care about it. However, what I do care about is that each person involved in any kind of relationship should be respected. I didn't like how Bruenor's new polyamorous relationship was handled in Archmage. It was only implied that the Felhammer sisters were ok with the arrangement, but most of how it was justified was that it was what put Bruenor's heart at peace. Well, that's great and all, but tight as the Felhammers are in everything else, that doesn't necessarily mean that they'd be ok sharing a husband. That wasn't talked about at all.

And now, in Maestro, we have this talk between Penelope and CB, and it's almost like an attempt to affirm the ok-ness of Bruenor's arrangement, without actually dealing with those sets of characters specifically.
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Sothron
Acolyte

16 Posts

Posted - 24 Apr 2016 :  03:33:22  Show Profile Send Sothron a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Another problem I have: why is House Baenre allowed to be First House for, you know, forever? Isn't Lolth supposed to be a goddess of Chaos here or something folks? How much "chaos" can you have when the same House is in charge forever and nothing ever changes that?

I'm hoping we see Baenre wiped out in the next book and a whole new society structure put in place or at least something different than the status quo.
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