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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3802 Posts |
 Posted - 16 Apr 2016 : 17:24:58
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quote:
Originally posted by sno4wy
*reaches through the internet tubes and heartily shakes Clegane's hand, going in for a hug even before thinking better of it ;P*
I can't convey my feelings any better than you have already on this matter so I'll let you take it from here. XD
I agree that the lack of the Jarlaxle and Entreri reconciliation was very very poorly handled. I didn't even bother bringing it up because I'm just that exasperated that after 100 Realms years and 10 our world years that they just get back together with only a mention of their previous tensions. There's so much stuff there that just got glazed completely over that I can't even express how frustrating that whole thing is. ._.
It seems to be a problem with the current handling of the FR in general. You have stuff suddenly returning to their pre-Spellplague (or pre ToT, in some cases) state, but it just sort of happens, without exploring the consequences of it, how people react to it etc.
quote:
I've not finished the book yet, I will have by the end of the day, but I just cant get the mentions of the ruins of Shade from my mind. I'm even wondering if I missed a section in The Herald where the enclave flew back to the desert to crash.
Sorry, just had to get that out the system.
Otherwise, am enjoying the book :)
Gareth
This is getting frustrating. First, the dates are all over the place, then this. Are WotC editors sleeping? Do they even care anymore? |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
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sno4wy
Senior Scribe
USA
466 Posts |
Posted - 16 Apr 2016 : 17:32:19
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quote:
Originally posted by Irennan
It seems to be a problem with the current handling of the FR in general. You have stuff suddenly returning to their pre-Spellplague (or pre ToT, in some cases) state, but it just sort of happens, without exploring the consequences of it, how people react to it etc.
I agree with that, but it's also always been a problem with Salvatore's "character development". He skips over some major things, using Entreri as an example, the transition of Dwahvel "You killed my cousin!!!" Tiggerwillies to "my bff the halfling" in the life of an emotionless killer. That's not even getting in to the glaring errors/inconsistencies with character histories.
quote:
Originally posted by Irennan
This is getting frustrating. First, the dates are all over the place, then this. Are WotC editors sleeping? Do they even care anymore?
I think we all know the answer to that question, but are hoping against hope that such is not the case... >_> |
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Swordsage
Learned Scribe
149 Posts |
Posted - 17 Apr 2016 : 01:13:03
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The Shade thing is evidence of one of the reasons why I've stopped reading Salvatore novels. It's been clear for a long time that he doesn't care what the existing published information or lore is on a place or person when he wants to write in that sandbox and the existing information doesn't fit into his story conception. He forges on and writes whatever he wants and doesn't care as long as he gets paid and published. I blame his editors who have let him get away with joke names and poor continuity for decades now. The last straw for me was his "Sundering" novel. Actually enjoyed the book, but it was so obviously only a means to get his characters into the 5E Realms so he could keep writing about them and making $$ that it was cringeworthy. For me, his Realms writing has now sailed into the Sea of Irrelevance and Self-Indulgence. Happy travels to him.
The Swordsage |
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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3802 Posts |
Posted - 17 Apr 2016 : 01:32:16
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I understand that there's a huge amount of lore to know, if you want to write in the FR, but c'mon. Even looking up Thultanthar on the wiki could have avoided that mistake.
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Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader
USA
2708 Posts |
Posted - 17 Apr 2016 : 02:39:31
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quote:
Originally posted by Swordsage
The Shade thing is evidence of one of the reasons why I've stopped reading Salvatore novels. It's been clear for a long time that he doesn't care what the existing published information or lore is on a place or person when he wants to write in that sandbox and the existing information doesn't fit into his story conception. He forges on and writes whatever he wants and doesn't care as long as he gets paid and published.
I agree. I do enjoy the novels, but as I have said before, it feels like RAS is out of touch with the rest of the Realms, and when he tries to bring in lore, it feels forced or out of place, as if he isn't familiar with it. He tends to do his own thing, using the Realms as a backdrop. |
Sweet water and light laughter |
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Clegane
Seeker
65 Posts |
Posted - 17 Apr 2016 : 03:10:02
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quote:
Originally posted by Swordsage
The Shade thing is evidence of one of the reasons why I've stopped reading Salvatore novels. It's been clear for a long time that he doesn't care what the existing published information or lore is on a place or person when he wants to write in that sandbox and the existing information doesn't fit into his story conception. He forges on and writes whatever he wants and doesn't care as long as he gets paid and published. I blame his editors who have let him get away with joke names and poor continuity for decades now. The last straw for me was his "Sundering" novel. Actually enjoyed the book, but it was so obviously only a means to get his characters into the 5E Realms so he could keep writing about them and making $$ that it was cringeworthy. For me, his Realms writing has now sailed into the Sea of Irrelevance and Self-Indulgence. Happy travels to him.
The Swordsage
I hear what you are saying but do not agree entirely for one reason. As a fan I struggle with the fact the Realms were moved out of the 1300's DR. I loved and still do love many of the characters and the setting that existed pre-spellplague. In fact I still want to see era based books set in the classic setting. When everything was advanced 100 years, I felt like a favorite TV series had just got the unexpected axe. Except in this case, the series wasn't cancelled but one day everything and everyone a fan may have come to love and find familiar and endearing was no longer there even though the series was still called the same thing. The most enthused I have been in quite a while is Elaine Cunningham posting her unpublished Song and Swords book Reclamation here.
If I feel this way, a creator in the Realms who lived the story enough to walk in the world and create something so many loved and enjoyed had to be feeling that same shock and loss. Creating a plot device to move his characters into present realms isn't so much about the $$$$ but the former considerations, I think. Other criticism's not withstanding. |
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader
USA
2708 Posts |
Posted - 17 Apr 2016 : 03:40:51
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| I can agree to that. A lot of good series were left behind with 4e. Of course, now some of the stories that were made in 4e are being left behind, too... |
Sweet water and light laughter |
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Lamora
Seeker
USA
81 Posts |
Posted - 17 Apr 2016 : 06:00:12
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I will be another person jumping in I guess. The Shade thing really threw me because I thought Shade had only two flying cities. One fell in Sembia via Kemp's book and the other fell on Cormanthor via the Herald. Then Salvatore writes about a city that fell in Aunorach called Shade... It honestly makes no sense to me how that was allowed to happen. Zero. How does that get put in print? It really says that Salvatore can write whatever he wants with little to no oversight. He is the cash cow after all for the novels.
Also, reading some of Ed's notes and Wizards stuff, I got the feeling that Shade was supposed to be this fallen power that was basically 'evil'. Yet Salvatore is writing them as a... not good faction per say, but definitely not an evil faction. Which I am fine with. I always liked Shade, and I hated what Ed did with it. Kemp really made Shade come alive for me, and I loved everything he wrote about them. Them helping to bring back the Hosttower was a big move for them since they put their remaining best wizards on the case when they supposedly don't have too many powerful wizards left. This is just something you really wouldn't expect to see from Shade. I guess I am mainly agreeing with some previous posts about how Salvatore writes stuff that just doesn't jive with other source material. His never mentioning of Elistrae or Varaeun (spelling is bad) is another example of this. Writing Drizzt as this Hero of the Drow without once even mentioning any of the other drow gods is just plain strange. |
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader
USA
2708 Posts |
Posted - 17 Apr 2016 : 12:56:53
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| Yup, exactly. I was put off that he didn't mention Eilistraee and Vhaeraun, who have been trying to show the drow different paths for centuries. Then Drizzt comes along and suddenly there's hope? |
Sweet water and light laughter |
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Merrith
Learned Scribe
135 Posts |
Posted - 17 Apr 2016 : 18:53:07
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quote:
Originally posted by Clegane
I know the redemption has been developing through several books, it's just hard for me to accept someone can go from a completely soulless murderer to a point they are self-sacrificing. Has it happened in our world? Very rarely and then because the individual had some deeply personal religious awakening and at that point they and their lives and personality don't even resemble the past one.
You have to remember though, that this isn't the only factor at play. Self-sacrificing wouldn't be nearly as difficult for a man who doesn't really care if he dies, which is what Artemis has become and we saw evidence of it when they went to attempt to destroy Charon's Claw. He still seems unhappy in general with life, and I could easily see him thinking it would all be better off if he got to finally end his life first, with his respect for Drizzt contributing to believing Drizzt would still deserve to live on. |
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RK
Acolyte
8 Posts |
Posted - 18 Apr 2016 : 04:09:35
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quote:
Originally posted by Clegane
I know the redemption has been developing through several books, it's just hard for me to accept someone can go from a completely soulless murderer to a point they are self-sacrificing. Has it happened in our world? Very rarely and then because the individual had some deeply personal religious awakening and at that point they and their lives and personality don't even resemble the past one.
Maybe he hasn't...on purpose, anyway.
When Yvonnel said "trust the lingering curse of Faerzress madness," she meant Drizzt, but obviously, it was affecting Entreri as well, as early as during the trek to Menzoberranzan. Jarlaxle believed Drizzt's and Entreri's outbursts to be demon related, as in "from a demon" when it could have been from the Fearzress itself. And given that Jarlaxle completely missed the boat on virtually everything here, it's not beyond the realm of possibility that he's wrong here also.
The titles in this trilogy are named for people other than Drizzt. Archmage for Gromph, Maestro for Jarlaxle, and Hero for...well, we assume Drizzt, but what if Entreri's picture is on the cover when it comes out?
Despite all the times Yvonnel called Drizzt "hero" I'm thinking the next book might center on one more honest fight between Drizzt and Entreri. Drizzt fighting against what he belives to be Lloth's illusions and Entreri fighting to save his friend. A heck of a challenge for Entreri, as either of his weapons would kill Drizzt (or anyone) if he connected. No way he could fight all out.
On a side note, the exchange between Drizzt and Tiago regarding "baubles" was hysterically funny. |
Want to learn how to make $50,000 in the first month? Me too. |
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Gareth
Seeker
United Kingdom
55 Posts |
Posted - 18 Apr 2016 : 11:37:36
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Having now finished Maestro, its not a bad book. Its not a great book (Its no "Homeland"), but its not a waste either.
Positives:
- Its easy to read.
- It has established characters that we (mostly!) like to read more about (It had plenty of Gromph, who is one of my favourites)
- It keeps FR novels, and the wider range, going/breathing/alive/viable
- The story is enjoyable and is clearly building towards something
- Its the first book in a few months that has had me wanting to "get back to reading it" when I have been dragged away to do adulting (cutting the lawn, viewing some houses etc)
Negatives:
- Some jarring inconsistencies in realmslore (Shade's crash site, the origins of the Hosttower)
- Where for art thou Elistraee? The lack of mention at all of any Drow gods other than big L seemed obvious by their absence.
- (Very subjective view)- Where for art thou Malchor? Ed showed the survival of Malchor Harpell, and mention was made of the safety of the Tower of Twilight in "Spellstorm", so it seemed to me odd that there was no cameo (or perhaps return? as his first appearance was in The Halflings Gem I think) of Malchor especially with Luskan/Gauntlegrim on his doorstep and his own family getting involved along with this "whos-who" of magical powers in the north- There were other notable absences (no Laeral, though with her running Waterdeep perhaps her appearance would be odd- but not even an apprentice/envoy of the Blackstaff?)
- (Quite Subjective)- Its not Salvatore at his best, but then perhaps I am looking through ruby tinted lenses and hope that every Salvatore novel will be a new "Homeland".
+Gareth+
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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3802 Posts |
Posted - 18 Apr 2016 : 13:14:11
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quote:
Originally posted by Gareth
- Where for art thou Elistraee? The lack of mention at all of any Drow gods other than big L seemed obvious by their absence.
Twiddling her thumbs with her brother, waiting until WotC decides that their return deserves a little bit of attention.
Their absence is arguable. Eilistraee, Vhaeraun and the whole Dark Seldarine have come back during the Sundering. The two siblings have also appeared to their followers, even in person, to make their return known. So, given the situation in Menzo, I can see some of their followers active in trying to lead as many drow as they can towards a different path. They should be even more effective, given that they're no longer enemies. |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
Edited by - Irennan on 18 Apr 2016 14:19:24 |
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Veritas
Learned Scribe
209 Posts |
Posted - 18 Apr 2016 : 16:37:08
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I don't recall Bob ever mentioning any of the other drow gods in any Realms novel he himself wrote. Frankly, it diminishes Drizzt's importance as a character when he is but one of many drow who abandoned Lolth for other callings. I suspect that the drow gods "died" in the first instance to further cement Drizzt's specialness, not unlike Superman's array of super family getting the axe after the Crisis of Infinite Earths to cement his sole survivor of a doomed planet mythology.
WotC is walking back 4e, but gingerly where it may adversely affect their most bankable protagonist. |
Edited by - Veritas on 18 Apr 2016 16:38:06 |
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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3802 Posts |
Posted - 18 Apr 2016 : 16:58:13
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They outright stated it: http://forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=19597
But man, the Dark Seldarine has been brought back, I've personally never seen Drizzt fans complain about them (OTOH, I've seen people wondering why Eilistraee has never reached for him), they (at least Eilistraee, and Vhaeraun too) are iconic to the realmsian drow... a little something to show that they're there when the drow are the focus of the attention again is simply due, given their return (especially after they were--quite frankly--trashed with those books). I wouldn't mind them not being in the Drizzt novels, if there were as many novels as before and other chances for them to appear. But as of now, with this huge big event involving the drow (and hope for them, when Drizzt has never really cared for it) and with the lack of novels, a small appearance (which would be very fitting, given the context) isn't much to ask... It doesn't even have to affect Drizzt negatively. Everyone knows that he is the most special of the special drow, having Eilistraee/Vhaeraun, or their followers making an appearance, giving their support to him, or whatever wouldn't be negative at all.
Also it's kinda annoying that WotC don't even have enough faith in this character that they think that he'd lose value for not being the only single ''good drow'' (IMO, he would if he actually was. It would be just too far fetched, and if you went all ''oh, it's a mutation, he was born good'', then his choices wouldn't really be *his*, he'd have made them only because he'd just be like that. It'd be cheap, and make 0 sense, given the history of the drow in the setting). A character isn't class/race/align, they're defined by their background, experiences, choices, personality and so on. It's like saying that Elminster is no longer unique because there are other godlike mages and other Mystra's chosen.
Eilistraee and Vhaeraun only slightly diminish Drizzt's importance. He's one of many, but he remains special and unique, because he never accepted Lolth's way, developed his own moral code, built his own set of principles and so on, rather than being brainwashed and then realizing that another path exists. He is unique because he struggled out of the Underdark, without being helped by a Secret Moondancer, or by an agent of Vhaeraun. He is unique because of all the experiences that defined him, as I said above. If you think about it, it actually helps his uniqueness as a character, rather than some kind of reverse stereotype. |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
Edited by - Irennan on 18 Apr 2016 22:30:48 |
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Firestorm
Senior Scribe
Canada
826 Posts |
Posted - 19 Apr 2016 : 00:46:14
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quote:
Originally posted by Veritas
I don't recall Bob ever mentioning any of the other drow gods in any Realms novel he himself wrote. Frankly, it diminishes Drizzt's importance as a character when he is but one of many drow who abandoned Lolth for other callings. I suspect that the drow gods "died" in the first instance to further cement Drizzt's specialness, not unlike Superman's array of super family getting the axe after the Crisis of Infinite Earths to cement his sole survivor of a doomed planet mythology.
WotC is walking back 4e, but gingerly where it may adversely affect their most bankable protagonist.
Eilistraee has been around for over 2 decades of realms books. Daughter of the drow came out in 1995 and not once did having a ton of goodly drow hinder or diminish Drizzt's character or book sales right up to when they killed her in 2008.
Bob's books are basically like the "Avenged Sevenfold" of forgotten realms. Probably one of the most popular bands around. But very much disliked by real heavy metal fans. In fact, a lot of Avenged sevenfold fans claim "They are the only metal band I like", despite the fact that they really are not metal anymore. Their first 2 Albums are the only two the majority of metal fans really like, and then they were encouraged to and went mainstream radio friendly for the bucks and pretty much discarded a lot of their metalcore roots, estranging a lot of the fans who liked their early work.
The parallel of "Drizzt only" fans who don't even play DnD or read realms novels other than Bob's books is unmistakable. And in his roots, Bob adhered very carefully to paying attention to lore and using NPC's of the world to both enrich his books and enrich the realms. But he grew away from that and doesn't even seem to pay attention to the rules of DnD anymore(Robillard killing an electricity immune lich with an electrical spell), or to the other events of Dnd other than in passing(Uh, Shade fell on Myth Drannor, not thousands of miles away in the desert).
Even in forums, the Avenged Sevenfold fans come out of the woodwork in "Greatest guitarist, etc" polls to say X guitarist from this band is the greatest guitar player of all time. The same thing happens constantly in realms forums via Drizzt only fans making topics like "Salvatore character X vs Elminster or Demogorgon".
And of course, Bob basically just stuck his thumb in my eye by having Drizzt kill Demogorgon this past book and portraying him like a lumbering beast instead of one of the most ancient and cunning demons of all time.
While I love Bob's work for the most part, he alienates the Forgotten realms fan half of me. |
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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3802 Posts |
Posted - 19 Apr 2016 : 01:25:51
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quote:
Originally posted by Firestorm
quote:
Originally posted by Veritas
I don't recall Bob ever mentioning any of the other drow gods in any Realms novel he himself wrote. Frankly, it diminishes Drizzt's importance as a character when he is but one of many drow who abandoned Lolth for other callings. I suspect that the drow gods "died" in the first instance to further cement Drizzt's specialness, not unlike Superman's array of super family getting the axe after the Crisis of Infinite Earths to cement his sole survivor of a doomed planet mythology.
WotC is walking back 4e, but gingerly where it may adversely affect their most bankable protagonist.
Eilistraee has been around for over 2 decades of realms books. Daughter of the drow came out in 1995 and not once did having a ton of goodly drow hinder or diminish Drizzt's character or book sales right up to when they killed her in 2008.
According to what Perkins said, WotC perceived that the drow pantheon, and Eilistraee in particular, made Drizzt less of a special snowflake, so they removed them. I agree with you that it isn't the case at all, I've never seen Drizzt fans complain about her or Liriel, and I've seen some (quite a lot, actually) of them wanting more on both Eilistraee and Liriel.
That's also why it seems strange to me that an event as big for the drow as Eilistraee's return is only a sentence in a sourcebook, and a mention in one of Ed's books. |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
Edited by - Irennan on 19 Apr 2016 01:32:55 |
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader
USA
2708 Posts |
Posted - 19 Apr 2016 : 01:37:46
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I agree. I, like many, did start my Realms adventure with the Drizzt books, then I wanted to start reading other books about drow and elves, so I read books like WotSQ, Evermeet, Starlight and Shadows, etc. I have since branched far beyond that, of course, those books about elves and drow remain my favorite. I like the Drizzt books, but he doesn't represent the Realms for me, especially the later books. I don't think readers can really experience the Realms unless they read outside the Drizzt books.
And I also agree with previous statements that having E and V around does not diminish Drizzt's uniqueness. Unlike Lolth, V and E do not brainwash their followers. They have *choices*, just as Drizzt left the Underdark by his choice and continues to live by his own moral compass (the ridiculous madness in Maestro aside). V and E were around long before Drizzt, and would have been showing drow a different path before Drizzt was born. Drizzt actually had it lucky, because Zak helped open his eyes. Followers of Elistraee and Vhaeraun have to be more discreet and careful, so it is actually a lot more admirable when a drow "sees the light" and is willing to take the risk of defying Lolth by turning to her children than Drizzt walking from drow society. Don't get me wrong, both Zak and Drizzt are awesome, but Drizzt doesn't care about helping others like himself or his father. He never thought about it until Jarlaxle said something. Es and Vs, on the other hand, are actively trying to help drow out of their suffering.
And the fight between Demogorgan and Drizzt was just...yeah. I won't go there, though that video game trailer (I think that's what it was for, I could be wrong. It featured Drizzt. Maybe it was just a promo for FR events) that was released either late last year or the beginning of this year makes more sense. That's what I thought of after I read that scene. |
Sweet water and light laughter |
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader
USA
2708 Posts |
Posted - 19 Apr 2016 : 01:43:51
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| And you know what reading the Drizzt books has done for me that I am sure it has for other Drizzt fans who are vouching for E and V? It got me interested in the drow . Not Drizzt the drow, but DROW. That means I want more stories about other drow, other lives. That includes Eilistraeens and Vhaeraunites. |
Sweet water and light laughter |
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Merrith
Learned Scribe
135 Posts |
Posted - 19 Apr 2016 : 02:07:08
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quote:
Originally posted by RK
quote:
Originally posted by Clegane
I know the redemption has been developing through several books, it's just hard for me to accept someone can go from a completely soulless murderer to a point they are self-sacrificing. Has it happened in our world? Very rarely and then because the individual had some deeply personal religious awakening and at that point they and their lives and personality don't even resemble the past one.
The titles in this trilogy are named for people other than Drizzt. Archmage for Gromph, Maestro for Jarlaxle, and Hero for...well, we assume Drizzt, but what if Entreri's picture is on the cover when it comes out?
Despite all the times Yvonnel called Drizzt "hero" I'm thinking the next book might center on one more honest fight between Drizzt and Entreri. Drizzt fighting against what he belives to be Lloth's illusions and Entreri fighting to save his friend. A heck of a challenge for Entreri, as either of his weapons would kill Drizzt (or anyone) if he connected. No way he could fight all out.
On a side note, the exchange between Drizzt and Tiago regarding "baubles" was hysterically funny.
I actually had a similar thought about the potential of Hero being about Entreri. It would be interesting as hell if he was fighting to save Drizzt, against Drizzt. They've always been a mirror of the other in many ways. |
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CTrunks
Acolyte
Canada
20 Posts |
Posted - 19 Apr 2016 : 05:27:42
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quote:
Originally posted by Veritas
I don't recall Bob ever mentioning any of the other drow gods in any Realms novel he himself wrote. Frankly, it diminishes Drizzt's importance as a character when he is but one of many drow who abandoned Lolth for other callings. I suspect that the drow gods "died" in the first instance to further cement Drizzt's specialness, not unlike Superman's array of super family getting the axe after the Crisis of Infinite Earths to cement his sole survivor of a doomed planet mythology.
WotC is walking back 4e, but gingerly where it may adversely affect their most bankable protagonist.
Honestly, I think that Eilistraee has been mentioned exactly once by Bob, during The Lone Drow - one of the drow that Tos'un Armgo was initially working with claimed to be a worshiper of her. Which is honestly a bit of a shame, because I'd love to actually see him interact with actual members of either her clergy, or Vhaeraun's, for that matter.
Actually, if you really want to talk about how Drizzt is the only drow who's allowed to be good in the Realms, just look at Tos'un. He went from someone who seemed to be following in the footsteps of Drizzt - if not surpassing him, considering he got married and had kids with a surface elf - and then, seemingly out of nowhere (or by Deus Ex Khazid'hea), flipped right back around to being evil. Because maybe his existence made Drizzt look less unique.
I'd just laugh if Bob didn't know Thultanthar was Shade. Did he ever even use that name for it, and so assumed they were separate? |
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader
USA
2708 Posts |
Posted - 19 Apr 2016 : 14:49:46
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| I was angry about Tos'un, too. I liked him, and then for no reason he left his wife and dragged his daughter to the Underdark. |
Sweet water and light laughter |
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sno4wy
Senior Scribe
USA
466 Posts |
Posted - 19 Apr 2016 : 20:18:23
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quote:
Originally posted by RK
The titles in this trilogy are named for people other than Drizzt. Archmage for Gromph, Maestro for Jarlaxle, and Hero for...well, we assume Drizzt, but what if Entreri's picture is on the cover when it comes out?
As awesome as it would be to have a recent official artwork done of Entreri, I strongly hope that this isn't the case. It's already frustrating enough as it is that Bob has to make all the popular characters eventually turn good.
That being said, I still find it weird that Drizzt and not Gromph is on the cover of Archmage, and while Maestro is about Jarlaxle and has Jarlaxle on the cover, it really felt like Yvonnel was the one pulling all the strings more so than Jarlaxle, hence, Yvonnel being the true "maestro" despite Bob's (likely) intentions otherwise. |
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Eilserus
Master of Realmslore
USA
1446 Posts |
Posted - 19 Apr 2016 : 22:48:02
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quote:
Originally posted by CorellonsDevout
I was angry about Tos'un, too. I liked him, and then for no reason he left his wife and dragged his daughter to the Underdark.
That was a rather strange turn around for him, considering how bad he knew it was back home. |
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Federicocap
Acolyte
Argentina
6 Posts |
Posted - 19 Apr 2016 : 23:43:13
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quote:
Originally posted by CTrunks
quote:
Originally posted by Veritas
I don't recall Bob ever mentioning any of the other drow gods in any Realms novel he himself wrote. Frankly, it diminishes Drizzt's importance as a character when he is but one of many drow who abandoned Lolth for other callings. I suspect that the drow gods "died" in the first instance to further cement Drizzt's specialness, not unlike Superman's array of super family getting the axe after the Crisis of Infinite Earths to cement his sole survivor of a doomed planet mythology.
WotC is walking back 4e, but gingerly where it may adversely affect their most bankable protagonist.
Honestly, I think that Eilistraee has been mentioned exactly once by Bob, during The Lone Drow - one of the drow that Tos'un Armgo was initially working with claimed to be a worshiper of her. Which is honestly a bit of a shame, because I'd love to actually see him interact with actual members of either her clergy, or Vhaeraun's, for that matter.
Actually, if you really want to talk about how Drizzt is the only drow who's allowed to be good in the Realms, just look at Tos'un. He went from someone who seemed to be following in the footsteps of Drizzt - if not surpassing him, considering he got married and had kids with a surface elf - and then, seemingly out of nowhere (or by Deus Ex Khazid'hea), flipped right back around to being evil. Because maybe his existence made Drizzt look less unique.
I'd just laugh if Bob didn't know Thultanthar was Shade. Did he ever even use that name for it, and so assumed they were separate?
Salvatore Mentioned Elistrae twice, one in the Halfling's gem (When he was at Calimport and someone mentioned that some Ellistrae Followers lived in an Oasis in the desert) And in the lone Drow.
I read an interview to Salvatore (I think it was a question in Reddit actually) when they asked him about Ellistrae, and he said that the only reason he would put her in his books is to kill her.
It makes sense. He made an incredible, unique character, with such a beaitiful journey from his past to where he is now, a character that struggled against the overwhelming odds of the deception that have his entire race in an iron grasp and succeeded. Then, a few years later, someone (Ed I guess) makes from nowhere a good drow deity and now there are good drow everywhere. No wonder Bob does not like Elistrae! |
Edited by - Federicocap on 19 Apr 2016 23:45:25 |
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader
USA
2708 Posts |
Posted - 19 Apr 2016 : 23:59:08
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| Having a unique character is no reason to dislike Eilistraee. He might as well dislike Liriel and all the others. Eilistraee's presence doesn't diminish Drizzt in any way. |
Sweet water and light laughter |
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sno4wy
Senior Scribe
USA
466 Posts |
Posted - 20 Apr 2016 : 00:03:26
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| I've always hated Drizzt as a character because of how stupidly special snowflake he is. I'd like him a lot more if there were other drow that could be good, because as with all things, there are varying degrees of "good", not to mention that everyone's going to have at least slightly different experiences. |
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Federicocap
Acolyte
Argentina
6 Posts |
Posted - 20 Apr 2016 : 00:06:03
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quote:
Originally posted by CorellonsDevout
Having a unique character is no reason to dislike Eilistraee. He might as well dislike Liriel and all the others. Eilistraee's presence doesn't diminish Drizzt in any way.
Speaking inside the realms, you are right, it does not. Ellistrae or not, Drizzt did that without relying on the creed of any god or goddes.
Speaking from the real world view, you make a character that is unique, then someone else makes a goddes that has a lot of other good drow.
And please, don't hate me for this, I LOVED LIRIEL'S BOOKS (I even had a dark elf wizard in Lineage 2 called like that) but the idea was behind it was, at least for me, the following "If a male drow worked, why not a female drow?" (Even though the books are not even similar)
quote:
Originally posted by sno4wy
I've always hated Drizzt as a character because of how stupidly special snowflake he is. I'd like him a lot more if there were other drow that could be good, because as with all things, there are varying degrees of "good", not to mention that everyone's going to have at least slightly different experiences.
There are plenty of drows with different variations of good in Salvatore´s books. Although I hated what he did with Tos'Un |
Edited by - Federicocap on 20 Apr 2016 00:07:29 |
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader
USA
2708 Posts |
Posted - 20 Apr 2016 : 00:08:06
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Don't worry, I'm not hating on you. But RAS also created Zak and Vierna (sp?), so even by his own standards, he implied Drizzt wasn't the only unique drow. Clearly, there are others. If he truly wanted Drizzt unique, then he should have made Zak evil. And if RAS paid any attention at all to Realms fans, he would realize Eilistraee and Vhaeraun are just as popular as Drizzt, if not more so.
And I hated what he did with Tos'un, too. I liked Tos'un.
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Sweet water and light laughter |
Edited by - CorellonsDevout on 20 Apr 2016 00:13:40 |
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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3802 Posts |
Posted - 20 Apr 2016 : 00:13:38
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Quite honestly, if Drizzt was the only good drow, it'd be far fetched and cheap IMO, because of the reasons that I've already explained in this thread. His uniqueness is also not in being a ''good drow'', but in his own character, choices, experiences and so on. He's not a reverse stereotype. Again, characters are not race/aling/class--or just because Bob has made a goodd row, no one should be able to do that?
Besides, Eilistraee was created by Ed before she was published. He created Eilistraee for his own Realms, because she is part of how he envisions the drow there. If you take a look at the history of the race in the setting, Eilistraee fits extremely well, just as does Vhaeraun. She was not ''tacked on'', but has her well defined role in the setting (and really, it's not like it could be argued, given that it is what the creator of the setting envisioned).
Even setting that aside, Eilistraee and Drizzt are different kind of characters, with radically different goals. Eilistraee's existence doesn't diminsh what Drizzt had to achieve. |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
Edited by - Irennan on 20 Apr 2016 00:22:23 |
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He better not!( MASSIVE SPOILERS FOR MAESTRO HERE)
