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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6351 Posts |
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6351 Posts |
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Owesstaer
Acolyte
Luxembourg
30 Posts |
 Posted - 28 Mar 2016 : 07:46:56
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quote:
Originally posted by ElaineCunningham
quote:
Originally posted by Zanthox
First: Super excited for this! Moonblades are some of my favorite items from previous editions.
As far as any specifics, I would love if there was a blade that could perhaps overlap with the Singing Swords or just ties into the followers of Eilistraee in some way. I realize this would be a very unique circumstance, but would still enjoy it if you think you could make it work.
Huh. You know, I never thought of a singing sword in the context of moonblades, but I don't see why one of them couldn't take on this particular ability. Eilistraee is a little more complicated, since not many moon elves worship that goddess. I do have an idea for a workaround, though. A sword that sings in the presence of "good" drow would be useful to an elf who is likely to encounter dark elves on a regular basis. Not many places where that would be likely, though. Must give this some thought....
In my present campaign, there is a half-drow PC (Dambraii Runaway kit from the Demihumans of the Realms supplement) trying to find the faith of Eilistraee. She traveled north, because (pre-campaign) she came across reports on the Crown Wars and the worship of Eilistraee in old Miyertar.
Thus far she still wields mace & whip from her Loviatar/Lolth background, but I thought about a moonblade being just the right thing to find in an ancient elistraeean shrine in the High Moor, and a guarding baelnorn as the PC's new mentor.
Now as for the moon-elven heritage, the half-elven Loviatar priestesses coming to Dambrath could have "provided" this. That's where I discarded the idea however, because
1) I couldn't make up ties for a moon-elven heritage back to Miyertar, a land of dark- and wild-elves.
2) the anachronism between The Dark Disaster (-10500 DR) and the moonblades' originating in Myth Drannor (originally founded around -4000 DR)
So, if you would able to establish ties between moonblades and singing swords, this might come in extremely handy to my own needs. I'm therefore looking forward to the development of your mentioned "workaround"! :)
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Barastir
Master of Realmslore
Brazil
1600 Posts |
Posted - 28 Mar 2016 : 12:51:34
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quote:
Originally posted by Owesstaer
(...) and the moonblades' originating in Myth Drannor (originally founded around -4000 DR)
In fact, both the sourcebook Cormanthyr: Empire of the Elves and the novel Evermeet: Island of the Elves establish the cretion of Moonblades around -9,000 DR. It occurred in the woods of Cormanthor, but not necessarily in the City of Myth Drannor - although some sources do cite the city as the place where the blades were created or enchanted (as the Baldur's Gate game). Note that elves live in the region of the Elven Court since -10,000 DR, according to the timeline in Cormanthyr: Empire of the Elves.
EDIT: Anyway, there is a gap of 1,500 years between the Dark Disaster and the Creation of the Moonblades. This is a lot of time, even for elves.  |
"Goodness is not a natural state, but must be
fought for to be attained and maintained.
Lead by example.
Let your deeds speak your intentions.
Goodness radiated from the heart."
The Paladin's Virtues, excerpt from the "Quentin's Monograph"
(by Ed Greenwood) |
Edited by - Barastir on 28 Mar 2016 13:00:14 |
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Adhriva
Learned Scribe
USA
147 Posts |
Posted - 28 Mar 2016 : 13:38:23
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| It's not impossible the ancient elven kingdoms during the Crown Wars had some kind of Elf or Moonblade, albeit one that would not be recognized as such any more through simple evolution of the technology and magic involved. For example, it might not even be a longblade and might give it's owner the perks of wielding it over the course of decades instead of instantaneously. It would not surprise me if ancient Elven families like the Durothil and the Irithyl had these proto-blades instead of the more modern (well, modern even by ~200DR standards) variations we often see. |
Professional illustrator and comic book artist.
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Barastir
Master of Realmslore
Brazil
1600 Posts |
Posted - 28 Mar 2016 : 14:56:09
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quote:
Originally posted by Adhriva
It's not impossible the ancient elven kingdoms during the Crown Wars had some kind of Elf or Moonblade, albeit one that would not be recognized as such (...)
In fact, these would be swords similar to moonblades, but not moonblades themselves, since those were created at an specific event, for a determined goal: choosing the king of Evermeet (just as the elfblades had their role in Myth Drannor).
Elves created and create many wonderful magical blades, but they don't have to be all moonblades or elfblades. We have other fantastic swords in the Elves of Evermeet sourcebook (like the greatsword that is one of the treasures of Evermeet), there are the stormswords of Myth Drannor, and certainly many others fine blades exist in the Forgotten Realms (not to cite other worlds).
Although it is understandable that moonblades' and elfblades' popularity is very attractive, and we all are fans of these canonical swords, other blades would be not diminished by being not among these famous swords.
As for blades similar to moonblades, Mrs. Cunningham has considered them as an explanation for the rise of legends such as the story of the Starym's moonblade, aka Darkmoon, in the 1st page of this very thread.
"I was just discussing the 'Evil Moonblade' issue in a private message, and it seems to me that the best approach would be to offer an alternate explanation, perhaps a class of copycat swords occasionally mistaken for moonblades. A more malleable magical item would give DMs and gamers a lot more leeway."
EDIT: format |
"Goodness is not a natural state, but must be
fought for to be attained and maintained.
Lead by example.
Let your deeds speak your intentions.
Goodness radiated from the heart."
The Paladin's Virtues, excerpt from the "Quentin's Monograph"
(by Ed Greenwood) |
Edited by - Barastir on 28 Mar 2016 14:59:48 |
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ElaineCunningham
Forgotten Realms Author
2396 Posts |
Posted - 28 Mar 2016 : 16:28:43
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| I like the idea of listing (and providing stats) for swords that are similar to the moonblades. This would give players and DMs a lot more storytelling flexibility. |
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Barastir
Master of Realmslore
Brazil
1600 Posts |
Posted - 28 Mar 2016 : 17:39:07
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It also makes some sense to have copycat swords, considering how famous moonblades are among the elves. Elves are not humans and are probably more creative than that, but maybe they would follow the tendency of making lesser copies of the acclaimed blades.
As for similar blades created before the origin of moonblades, I'm not sure. I think moonblades were probably brought as something new and distinctive at its time by its elven or divine designers. But it makes sense to have other ultra-powerful blades from this past of High Magic. |
"Goodness is not a natural state, but must be
fought for to be attained and maintained.
Lead by example.
Let your deeds speak your intentions.
Goodness radiated from the heart."
The Paladin's Virtues, excerpt from the "Quentin's Monograph"
(by Ed Greenwood) |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 28 Mar 2016 : 18:39:25
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| While I personally do like having a corrupted moonblade, having "imitation" moonblades would go a long way towards explaining away some of the discrepancies that have crept into the lore, over the years -- especially if these imitation blades were created with the deliberate intent of replacing legitimate moonblades. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen!  |
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Rhaine
Acolyte
Australia
6 Posts |
Posted - 29 Mar 2016 : 01:17:13
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
While I personally do like having a corrupted moonblade, having "imitation" moonblades would go a long way towards explaining away some of the discrepancies that have crept into the lore, over the years -- especially if these imitation blades were created with the deliberate intent of replacing legitimate moonblades.
Perhaps some of these imitations might be 'Sunblades' created with the intent of returning the sun elves to rulership. |
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Nacopa
Acolyte
USA
12 Posts |
Posted - 29 Mar 2016 : 08:39:17
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| I imagine any noble house that failed enough times to claim a blade, or simply lost too many scions in the moonblade race, decided enough was enough and created an heirloom blade with a similar design that only accepted their bloodline, which I feel is more likely something a family would decide to do as opposed to the original creator of the moonblades who had to consider the People as a whole. |
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Barastir
Master of Realmslore
Brazil
1600 Posts |
Posted - 29 Mar 2016 : 12:03:36
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| Would they? Maybe a few of them... Most families were honored to even bear a moonblade, even a dormant one. |
"Goodness is not a natural state, but must be
fought for to be attained and maintained.
Lead by example.
Let your deeds speak your intentions.
Goodness radiated from the heart."
The Paladin's Virtues, excerpt from the "Quentin's Monograph"
(by Ed Greenwood) |
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6351 Posts |
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Barastir
Master of Realmslore
Brazil
1600 Posts |
Posted - 29 Mar 2016 : 12:33:43
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quote:
Originally posted by dazzlerdal
(...) This could be the definitive work on moonblades that dispels all the myths and misconceptions that have built up over the years. It could even be a reinvention of the moonblades.
Or most possibly this will be the work which opens our minds to many understandings, interpretations and different points of view and possibilities over moonblades and similar swords (and maybe there will be non-elven blades among them)... But I'm not sure if this work will change history altogether. Well, let's see!
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"Goodness is not a natural state, but must be
fought for to be attained and maintained.
Lead by example.
Let your deeds speak your intentions.
Goodness radiated from the heart."
The Paladin's Virtues, excerpt from the "Quentin's Monograph"
(by Ed Greenwood) |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 29 Mar 2016 : 17:59:41
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quote:
Originally posted by Rhaine
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
While I personally do like having a corrupted moonblade, having "imitation" moonblades would go a long way towards explaining away some of the discrepancies that have crept into the lore, over the years -- especially if these imitation blades were created with the deliberate intent of replacing legitimate moonblades.
Perhaps some of these imitations might be 'Sunblades' created with the intent of returning the sun elves to rulership.
I don't think that tactic would work... But a faux moonblade, created to appear to be a real moonblade, and replacing the original? That would be a lot easier to pull off. Just stash the actual moonblade (dormant or not) in a family vault, and whip out the fake one. It likely wouldn't pass muster for actually determining rulership (I'd imagine certain safeguards were built in for that), but it could allow a family to show off that they still have an active moonblade. Thus, they don't have to worry about being fried for being unworthy, there's no stigma for a dormant blade (if that's what happened with the original), and the family still enjoys the prestige of an active blade.
As long as the judgement thing is removed from one of these fakes, that opens up a lot of room to play...
It's also likely that the fakes would not do the trick of adding a single power per wielder -- but that could be handled by the family wizard, under obviously controlled circumstances.
All this aside, though, it is my personal opinion that the Starym moonblade should be left alone. We've got it pretty firmly grounded that it is an original moonblade, corrupted by Moander. I, personally, like its story, and I think it works well as a one-off. I also like that it took Moander to corrupt it -- that really does seem plausible for him, and I like that it took a god to do it. Making it something else invalidates prior lore, which I'm not a fan of -- it is canonically stated it's a corrupt moonblade. No other moonblade, with the exception of Arilyn's, has been as extensively written up -- so any others are fair game for the fake blade approach.
At least, that's my opinion on the Starym moonblade. I intend no offense to those who disagree. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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Barastir
Master of Realmslore
Brazil
1600 Posts |
Posted - 29 Mar 2016 : 19:04:36
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
(...)
At least, that's my opinion on the Starym moonblade. I intend no offense to those who disagree.
No offense taken...
I just think that if the entire Seldarine, and Corellon in particular (a greater power), had a hand in the creation of the moonblades and interest in their success, they would not allow a lesser power to spoil one of their swords, either by placing powerful protection enchantments on them (and one can consider that Moander's portfolio is "corruption" specifically, but can't greater powers undo the damage he does?) or by watching the blades - or putting agents taking care of them - and acting both direct or indirectly when made aware of any menace. Well, maybe this could be an interesting story to tell, after all!
EDIT: clarifications |
"Goodness is not a natural state, but must be
fought for to be attained and maintained.
Lead by example.
Let your deeds speak your intentions.
Goodness radiated from the heart."
The Paladin's Virtues, excerpt from the "Quentin's Monograph"
(by Ed Greenwood) |
Edited by - Barastir on 29 Mar 2016 19:12:04 |
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Nacopa
Acolyte
USA
12 Posts |
Posted - 29 Mar 2016 : 19:36:51
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quote:
Originally posted by Barastir
Would they? Maybe a few of them... Most families were honored to even bear a moonblade, even a dormant one.
Of course they might if they suffered back to back losses and chose to wait a generation or two before letting a scion attempt the claim. House survivability may be that important to one family. Too, a very shrewd clan might create an heirloom blade that could work as a contingency should the moonblade be lost or stolen, with attributes that help the family member find and secure the moonblade. It also offers the idea that a family that never owned a moonblade (for whatever reason) wanted a powerful sword that would stay in the family, much like a loregem designed to instruct descendants. |
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6351 Posts |
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Barastir
Master of Realmslore
Brazil
1600 Posts |
Posted - 29 Mar 2016 : 21:04:49
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| Well, I think the gods' interest varies by the scope of the matter at hand to their followers as a whole, and to their previous influence in the matter. I see the choosing of Evermeet's King and their hand in the creation of the moonblades both as good reasons. And the meddling of a lesser god in their creation, defying them somehow. |
"Goodness is not a natural state, but must be
fought for to be attained and maintained.
Lead by example.
Let your deeds speak your intentions.
Goodness radiated from the heart."
The Paladin's Virtues, excerpt from the "Quentin's Monograph"
(by Ed Greenwood) |
Edited by - Barastir on 29 Mar 2016 21:07:06 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 29 Mar 2016 : 21:34:42
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quote:
Originally posted by Barastir
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
(...)
At least, that's my opinion on the Starym moonblade. I intend no offense to those who disagree.
No offense taken...
I just think that if the entire Seldarine, and Corellon in particular (a greater power), had a hand in the creation of the moonblades and interest in their success, they would not allow a lesser power to spoil one of their swords, either by placing powerful protection enchantments on them (and one can consider that Moander's portfolio is "corruption" specifically, but can't greater powers undo the damage he does?) or by watching the blades - or putting agents taking care of them - and acting both direct or indirectly when made aware of any menace. Well, maybe this could be an interesting story to tell, after all!
EDIT: clarifications
There's nothing saying the Seldarine was aware of it.
Keep this in mind: Moander corrupted a greater power, without that deity being aware of it. If he can corrupt a god, surely corrupting a magic sword isn't that big a deal. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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Barastir
Master of Realmslore
Brazil
1600 Posts |
Posted - 30 Mar 2016 : 01:47:40
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I think he can corrupt a moonblade, and quite easilly. But as you said, the deity wasn't aware... And I think the Seldarine would keep aware of the moonblades for the reasons mentioned above. But then again, maybe not directly, and maybe they just haven't succeeded. That's why it's not ruining a good plot, but maybe creating a new, deeper one.
I don't think the Seldarine would create the blades for a purpose so high to their People and just not care about it. But maybe they charged someone - proxies, a church, high mages, mortal followers - to take care of the swords. They felt their scheme was perfect and underestimated Moander or his minions... And then you have a novel or adventure explaining why a moonblade was corrupted - if it wasn't one of the copycat swords.
EDIT: typo |
"Goodness is not a natural state, but must be
fought for to be attained and maintained.
Lead by example.
Let your deeds speak your intentions.
Goodness radiated from the heart."
The Paladin's Virtues, excerpt from the "Quentin's Monograph"
(by Ed Greenwood) |
Edited by - Barastir on 30 Mar 2016 01:59:58 |
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Barastir
Master of Realmslore
Brazil
1600 Posts |
Posted - 30 Mar 2016 : 01:58:00
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quote:
Originally posted by Nacopa
Of course they might if (...)
As I said, I don't disagree, but I don't think this would be the rule. This way of thinking seems very human, to me, and I try to think of elves with a different mindset.
But then again, it probably is a result of my old school mind, in which racial tendencies are stronger than nowadays (with all the label-avoiding policies and such which appeared in these twenty-odd years). But I confess I liked when the trait that defined mankind was its flexibility (one source from DragonLance, IIRC, says "free will").
I fondly remember 2e sources in which a demihuman declares that humans can be artistically inspired as elven minstrels, stubborn as dwarves or ruthless as orc warlords, probably because of their short lifespans, and how they were intriguing and fascinating creatures. |
"Goodness is not a natural state, but must be
fought for to be attained and maintained.
Lead by example.
Let your deeds speak your intentions.
Goodness radiated from the heart."
The Paladin's Virtues, excerpt from the "Quentin's Monograph"
(by Ed Greenwood) |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 30 Mar 2016 : 13:03:28
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quote:
Originally posted by Barastir
I think he can corrupt a moonblade, and quite easilly. But as you said, the deity wasn't aware... And I think the Seldarine would keep aware of the moonblades for the reasons mentioned above. But then again, maybe not directly, and maybe they just haven't succeeded. That's why it's not ruining a good plot, but maybe creating a new, deeper one.
I don't think the Seldarine would create the blades for a purpose so high to their People and just not care about it. But maybe they charged someone - proxies, a church, high mages, mortal followers - to take care of the swords. They felt their scheme was perfect and underestimated Moander or his minions... And then you have a novel or adventure explaining why a moonblade was corrupted - if it wasn't one of the copycat swords.
EDIT: typo
I don't think that that the Seldarine are constantly keeping an eye on the moonblades. I think it would be more a case of them blessing the endeavour and then just watching the overall show, without any specific focus anywhere. Yes, rulership of the elves would be important to them, but there are other concerns, too -- like keeping elves alive in general, keeping an eye on the gods that don't like the Seldarine, etc.
They certainly didn't intervene when Evermeet was attacked by the fey'ri, or the Elf-Eater, or when the Elf-Eater ate a Moonflower prince on Moonshae...
And again, if a god can be corrupted without being aware of what's happening to themself, what's to say that even the direct attention of the Seldarine on some 300 swords would notice when one of them wasn't quite to factory spec? |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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Barastir
Master of Realmslore
Brazil
1600 Posts |
Posted - 30 Mar 2016 : 14:42:34
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
They certainly didn't intervene when Evermeet was attacked by the fey'ri, or the Elf-Eater, or when the Elf-Eater ate a Moonflower prince on Moonshae...
That's why I said they would take SOME care measure... Maybe putting celestial or mortal minions to take care of the issue. They intervened in the events mentioned, usually through their followers, as gods usually do. That's why I think this would do a good plot. Moander didn't only corrupted a moonblade 'cause no one was watching, he deceived or eliminated the (meager?) protections laid by the Seldarine, and then acted. Or not! Maybe he acted by a copycat sword, maybe it is all just a legend.
For my game, I don't think truth in that matter (and in many others, specially when they involve gods or magic) is very important, and I actually like to let things hazy, specially for PCs.
EDIT: And saving one prince is far from what I was saying would be a priority to the elven People in general. Maybe even if he was the last in his line, for the elves could use the moonblades to choose another lineage. On the other hand, Malar is a lesser power if compared to the Seldarine and released the Ityak-Ortheel more than once, causing a potential damage to all the People (although he was aided by Lolth and Ghaunadar in the 2nd occasion). Instead of preventing him from doing that, they fought the beast, through their followers and using a priestess as an avatar... |
"Goodness is not a natural state, but must be
fought for to be attained and maintained.
Lead by example.
Let your deeds speak your intentions.
Goodness radiated from the heart."
The Paladin's Virtues, excerpt from the "Quentin's Monograph"
(by Ed Greenwood) |
Edited by - Barastir on 30 Mar 2016 14:52:57 |
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ElaineCunningham
Forgotten Realms Author
2396 Posts |
Posted - 31 Mar 2016 : 00:04:27
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This project is sort of playing in the back of my mind, and I've run into a snag: Anything I write about moonblades at this point is going to contain spoilers for RECLAMATION, the unpublished final book of the Songs & Swords series. So I'm leaning toward finishing RECLAMATION to be published on the DM Guild site as serial fiction, then doing the moonblade game supplement after.
If you're interested in this discussion, there's a Reclamation thread in the Chamber of Sages. |
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Barastir
Master of Realmslore
Brazil
1600 Posts |
Posted - 31 Mar 2016 : 00:08:21
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Understood. As I have interest in both, I'll wait.
EDIT: ... eagerly! |
"Goodness is not a natural state, but must be
fought for to be attained and maintained.
Lead by example.
Let your deeds speak your intentions.
Goodness radiated from the heart."
The Paladin's Virtues, excerpt from the "Quentin's Monograph"
(by Ed Greenwood) |
Edited by - Barastir on 31 Mar 2016 17:17:23 |
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Nacopa
Acolyte
USA
12 Posts |
Posted - 31 Mar 2016 : 08:21:11
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| I do and will gladly support both! |
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Rhaine
Acolyte
Australia
6 Posts |
Posted - 01 Apr 2016 : 07:22:13
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| A novel and a supplement? Yes please ;) |
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ElaineCunningham
Forgotten Realms Author
2396 Posts |
Posted - 01 Apr 2016 : 15:05:51
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quote:
Originally posted by Rhaine
A novel and a supplement? Yes please ;)
NOT a novel. Nope noppity nope. Not even slightly. WotC's exclusive contract with Random House distribution would not permit distribution of a novel on the DM Guild. So we're talking serial fiction. A 4-part adventure. A tale. Better yet, it's game-related lore, "fluff" for the upcoming moonblades game supplement.
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Edited by - ElaineCunningham on 01 Apr 2016 15:06:41 |
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Rhaine
Acolyte
Australia
6 Posts |
Posted - 03 Apr 2016 : 02:43:21
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quote:
Originally posted by ElaineCunningham
quote:
Originally posted by Rhaine
A novel and a supplement? Yes please ;)
NOT a novel. Nope noppity nope. Not even slightly. WotC's exclusive contract with Random House distribution would not permit distribution of a novel on the DM Guild. So we're talking serial fiction. A 4-part adventure. A tale. Better yet, it's game-related lore, "fluff" for the upcoming moonblades game supplement.
hahaha gotcha ;)
Either way, I look forward to it :) |
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Moonblades
