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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
30431 Posts

Posted - 31 Aug 2016 :  22:54:03  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Why is it so inconceivable to you that gods can't act unless they are omniscient, omnipotent, and/or present? Especially given that Realmslore has established, repeatedly, that gods can take action without meeting any of those criteria?

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The Masked Mage
Master of Realmslore

USA
1362 Posts

Posted - 01 Sep 2016 :  00:48:38  Show Profile  Send The Masked Mage an AOL message  Click to see The Masked Mage's MSN Messenger address Send The Masked Mage a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Why ask why? Try Bud Dry.
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dazzlerdal
Great Reader

United Kingdom
3601 Posts

Posted - 01 Sep 2016 :  15:52:51  Show Profile Send dazzlerdal a Private Message  Reply with Quote
There are many many reasons.

Just a few include:

In order for a settinh to work as a gaming world it has to allow for the suspension of disbelief. There have to be rules to the setting that are followed in order for players to understand and be immersed. Deities actually wandering around breaks that immersion. A deity operates through avatars, an avatar is usually powerful enough to disintegrate an opponent at a touch or glance. Just witnessing a gods appearance would probably be enough to kill a mortal yet it doesnt happen.
An avatar is usually immune to most forms of attack yet these gods wandering around seem to be as frail as paper.
If you had 9 or 10 avatars at your disposal why would you do anything in person and would it even be possible to occupy a 3 dimensional body and still keep track of all your other responsibilities (including up to 10 avatars for treater gods).


A gods appearance in person is yet another step on the ladder of 'escalating pew pew guns for coolness'. It began with chosen, then avatars, then gods in person and overgods. And now we are stuck with novels and supplements that involve a daily grind of the world being threatened by super beings and the mortals seem to have to clear it all up despite gods just wandering around interfering in their favourite toys and people and ignoring everything else.



Number 3 is that almost every event involving direct deific involvement has been spectacularly mishandled. The powers and abilities are way off, with gods being offed by mortals. Gods behaving in ways completely contrary to their supposed personality, and acting in ways that makes no sense for a god to act.
For instance lolths silence, lolth goes silent, lets most of her worshippers die, eilistraee acts schizophrenically bizarre. And in the end the whole line of events must have been so bad it was completely ignored by any future line of product.
Dont get me started on the events of 1385 when the deities involved suddenly turned into the Brady bunch.
In general anything involving a god acting in person usually portrays that god as incredibly stupid and short sighted (mielikki and all orcs are evil), such that i regard anything involving gods as a really bad episode of home and away.


And finally. Ed doesnt use the gods in this way. They are behind the scenes movers and shakers, manipulating events by proxy rather than turning up directly. If a god ever did turn up in his games i bet it would be an avatar and not the actual divinity.

I much prefer Eds original vision to the travesty that WoTC serves up.





If a god ever did turn up directly i imagine he would be in serious danger. While he is on the mortal realm who is looking after his divine realm, who is seeing to the affairs of his followers, who is furthering his divine plans, who is controlling his avatars and manifestations.

Furthermore if a god is killed on the mortal realm what happens. A demon or devil is banished for years (or destroyed depending on edition). At the least it would probably take a while for the shattered divinity to gather himself togethwr and retreat home. Meanwhile his enemies get to wreck his plans in his absence.

Thus if a god ever did come to the prime in person then every enemy god that hears of such an event would also turn up to try and kill him.
Thus its much safer to send an avatar.

It makes no sense as far as the rules are concerned and it makes no sense as far as the motivations of a super intelligent divine being is concerned to turn up in person.


Thats the short version. There is lots more. Am i the only one that dislikes the gods turning up in person and doing everything themselves (leaving nothing for PCs to do).

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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
30431 Posts

Posted - 01 Sep 2016 :  17:53:34  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Two things:

1) Ed didn't create moonblades

2) No one -- not one person -- has even implied that Corellon showed up to personally do his thing. You're the only one who is making involvement in something be contingent on physical presence. And this is contrary to so much Realmslore that it's not funny.

So again, why is it so inconceivable that gods can't act unless they are present?

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dazzlerdal
Great Reader

United Kingdom
3601 Posts

Posted - 01 Sep 2016 :  18:20:59  Show Profile Send dazzlerdal a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Well if you are happy for gods to act by proxy and through intermediaries then we have no issue.

Unless of course gods are all powerful and can cast magic through planar boundaries.

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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
30431 Posts

Posted - 01 Sep 2016 :  20:10:10  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by dazzlerdal

Unless of course gods are all powerful and can cast magic through planar boundaries.



They can obviously cast magic through planar boundaries without being all-powerful. Again, it's canon Realmslore.

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dazzlerdal
Great Reader

United Kingdom
3601 Posts

Posted - 01 Sep 2016 :  20:40:47  Show Profile Send dazzlerdal a Private Message  Reply with Quote
But it doesn't follow the rules. If gods break the rules then the immersion is also broken. And a god that can do anything from anywhere seems pretty all powerful to me.

As long as people stop telling me that god X wont allow Y to happen then I will stop pointing out the inconsistencies and deficiencies in the current deific model as touted by WoTC (Cyric stabs Mystra. The second sundering. Shar and Lolth in their umpteenth attempt to destroy the world.).

The original argument was that I reckon I have a plausible way to make the Moonblades service evil (without actually changing anything about them). And the counter argument was that the gods wouldn't allow it. If they aren't all knowing and all powerful and can't find anything wrong with the whole thing (because it is the same as before; a series of blades designed to pick the best possible ruler for the elves) then how or why would they stop it short of just waiving their hands and instantly knowing that there was something wrong in the world.

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Brimstone
Great Reader

USA
2909 Posts

Posted - 01 Sep 2016 :  23:12:51  Show Profile Send Brimstone a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I actually like that wrinkle Dazzler. I find it interesting that the Moonblades could have been born in corruption without the Elves ever knowing it. Whatever works in your Realms...

"These things also I have observed: that knowledge of our world is
to be nurtured like a precious flower, for it is the most precious
thing we have. Wherefore guard the word written and heed
words unwritten and set them down ere they fade . . . Learn
then, well, the arts of reading, writing, and listening true, and they
will lead you to the greatest art of all: understanding."
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
30431 Posts

Posted - 02 Sep 2016 :  03:53:49  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by dazzlerdal

But it doesn't follow the rules. If gods break the rules then the immersion is also broken. And a god that can do anything from anywhere seems pretty all powerful to me.


How? Where does it say a god has to be physically present to do something? Given me a direct quote from a sourcebook that says gods can't affect anything unless they are actually on scene.

Besides, if that was the case, gods wouldn't have divine realms, because they'd be popping around the Realms 24/10 just granting spells to their worshippers!

We have plenty of canon lore that shows gods influencing things and acting on the Prime without being there. Heck, the three deity books of 2E had a section for each deity explaining how they interact with the mortal world from afar!

quote:
Originally posted by dazzlerdal


As long as people stop telling me that god X wont allow Y to happen then I will stop pointing out the inconsistencies and deficiencies in the current deific model as touted by WoTC (Cyric stabs Mystra. The second sundering. Shar and Lolth in their umpteenth attempt to destroy the world.).


If someone wants to point out where something violates canon lore, they're free to do so.

The only inconsistency I've seen yet is that you seem to think gods are either all-powerful or absolutely powerless -- and that's inconsistent with just about every bit of Realmslore that has even mentioned deities.

quote:
Originally posted by dazzlerdal

The original argument was that I reckon I have a plausible way to make the Moonblades service evil (without actually changing anything about them). And the counter argument was that the gods wouldn't allow it. If they aren't all knowing and all powerful and can't find anything wrong with the whole thing (because it is the same as before; a series of blades designed to pick the best possible ruler for the elves) then how or why would they stop it short of just waiving their hands and instantly knowing that there was something wrong in the world.


But you are changing things about them. Saying a divine vision for a good cause was actually a scrap of paper from a fiend for evil purposes counts as changing things.

And gods don't have to be all-knowing to know what's going on with something they're interested in. Why is it so hard to imagine that they can actually focus their attention in a particular direction?

Again, it is canon Realmslore that deities are not all-knowing, but they are capable of paying attention to multiple things at once -- they operate on a scale far beyond the mortal mind.

By saying they can't know anything at all if they are not omniscient, you are willfully and deliberately ignoring damn near everything that's ever being written about the gods.

If that's how you want to do things in your own Realms, hey, more power to you. But stop trying to convince the rest of us that canon material is wrong simply because you don't like it.

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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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dazzlerdal
Great Reader

United Kingdom
3601 Posts

Posted - 02 Sep 2016 :  07:07:20  Show Profile Send dazzlerdal a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Or you could provide me the point where it says that Corellon will not allow any evil involvement with his precious moonblades (rather than just inference and supposition of a quote) and i will stop arguin that actually its perfectly possible for evil to interfere in any scheme because corellon is not all powerful or all knowing and the lack of actions in the past at critical event for the elves backs up the idea that evil can influence anything just like good can.

It works both ways. I have only opinion that it can work my way and you have only opinion that it can work the other way. So why should i concede the point just because you prefer the other way.

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Edited by - dazzlerdal on 02 Sep 2016 08:19:37
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dazzlerdal
Great Reader

United Kingdom
3601 Posts

Posted - 02 Sep 2016 :  07:22:29  Show Profile Send dazzlerdal a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Ive seen more than a few good ideas ended abruptly when someone said "this god wouldnt allow that". So in response im asking how would he know and how would he stop it. I could also ask why they think he wouldnt allow it but that will be a conjectured argument.

Now lets give elaine her scroll back.

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Edited by - dazzlerdal on 02 Sep 2016 07:24:02
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ElaineCunningham
Forgotten Realms Author

2291 Posts

Posted - 02 Sep 2016 :  14:40:42  Show Profile  Visit ElaineCunningham's Homepage Send ElaineCunningham a Private Message  Reply with Quote
No worries--you guys can have the scroll. :)

I grew up in the Seventh-day Adventist church, so an ardent debate about what god would or would not allow evokes the fabric of my childhood. Not as nostalgic as Orange Crush and wish-nik trolls, perhaps, but familiar territory nonetheless. ;)
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The Masked Mage
Master of Realmslore

USA
1362 Posts

Posted - 04 Sep 2016 :  04:17:54  Show Profile  Send The Masked Mage an AOL message  Click to see The Masked Mage's MSN Messenger address Send The Masked Mage a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Back to the old scroll intent:

I am curious what you consider the extend of the Elfshadow power...

Just how much strength/vitality does calling forth the shadows drain from the bearer.
How much magic can the spellcaster souls within bring to bear? Etc.
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Cards77
Senior Scribe

USA
557 Posts

Posted - 06 Sep 2016 :  01:47:12  Show Profile Send Cards77 a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by dazzlerdal

There are many many reasons.

Just a few include:

In order for a settinh to work as a gaming world it has to allow for the suspension of disbelief. There have to be rules to the setting that are followed in order for players to understand and be immersed. Deities actually wandering around breaks that immersion. A deity operates through avatars, an avatar is usually powerful enough to disintegrate an opponent at a touch or glance. Just witnessing a gods appearance would probably be enough to kill a mortal yet it doesnt happen.
An avatar is usually immune to most forms of attack yet these gods wandering around seem to be as frail as paper.
If you had 9 or 10 avatars at your disposal why would you do anything in person and would it even be possible to occupy a 3 dimensional body and still keep track of all your other responsibilities (including up to 10 avatars for treater gods).


A gods appearance in person is yet another step on the ladder of 'escalating pew pew guns for coolness'. It began with chosen, then avatars, then gods in person and overgods. And now we are stuck with novels and supplements that involve a daily grind of the world being threatened by super beings and the mortals seem to have to clear it all up despite gods just wandering around interfering in their favourite toys and people and ignoring everything else.



Number 3 is that almost every event involving direct deific involvement has been spectacularly mishandled. The powers and abilities are way off, with gods being offed by mortals. Gods behaving in ways completely contrary to their supposed personality, and acting in ways that makes no sense for a god to act.
For instance lolths silence, lolth goes silent, lets most of her worshippers die, eilistraee acts schizophrenically bizarre. And in the end the whole line of events must have been so bad it was completely ignored by any future line of product.
Dont get me started on the events of 1385 when the deities involved suddenly turned into the Brady bunch.
In general anything involving a god acting in person usually portrays that god as incredibly stupid and short sighted (mielikki and all orcs are evil), such that i regard anything involving gods as a really bad episode of home and away.


And finally. Ed doesnt use the gods in this way. They are behind the scenes movers and shakers, manipulating events by proxy rather than turning up directly. If a god ever did turn up in his games i bet it would be an avatar and not the actual divinity.

I much prefer Eds original vision to the travesty that WoTC serves up.





If a god ever did turn up directly i imagine he would be in serious danger. While he is on the mortal realm who is looking after his divine realm, who is seeing to the affairs of his followers, who is furthering his divine plans, who is controlling his avatars and manifestations.

Furthermore if a god is killed on the mortal realm what happens. A demon or devil is banished for years (or destroyed depending on edition). At the least it would probably take a while for the shattered divinity to gather himself togethwr and retreat home. Meanwhile his enemies get to wreck his plans in his absence.

Thus if a god ever did come to the prime in person then every enemy god that hears of such an event would also turn up to try and kill him.
Thus its much safer to send an avatar.

It makes no sense as far as the rules are concerned and it makes no sense as far as the motivations of a super intelligent divine being is concerned to turn up in person.


Thats the short version. There is lots more. Am i the only one that dislikes the gods turning up in person and doing everything themselves (leaving nothing for PCs to do).



I have to agree. It stands out very well in the Gord novels the way Gary Gygax handled it. Direct intervention by the gods was unheard of.

The gods used mortals and powerful servants as pawns. Demons were IMMENSELY powerful and a deities power could not be imagined by a mortal.

For Rexfelis to even take in interest in Gord was almost unheard of in that world.

When gods are directly involved it cheapens the actions of the heros of the world. It also cheapens "destiny" and those paths that fate weaves for all mortals. Those are main components of a good fantasy setting/story.
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dazzlerdal
Great Reader

United Kingdom
3601 Posts

Posted - 06 Sep 2016 :  08:27:53  Show Profile Send dazzlerdal a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I knew i couldnt be the only one to see folly in the current god nonsense model.

Ive spent ages thinking about how to mortalise all events where "a god did it" has been the official explanation.

The only one that has given me any problem has been the time of troubles but i think i could solve that now.

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Lord Entrails
Acolyte

USA
4 Posts

Posted - 22 Nov 2016 :  22:30:44  Show Profile Send Lord Entrails a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Elaine, do you have an expected release/publish date for this yet?
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ElaineCunningham
Forgotten Realms Author

2291 Posts

Posted - 23 Nov 2016 :  03:55:59  Show Profile  Visit ElaineCunningham's Homepage Send ElaineCunningham a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Lord Entrails

Elaine, do you have an expected release/publish date for this yet?



No, because 1) I've been working on other things, and 2) I've been having second thoughts about the DM's Guild.

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