Candlekeep Forum
Candlekeep Forum
Home | Profile | Register | Active Topics | Active Polls | Members | Private Messages | Search | FAQ
Username:
Password:
Save Password
Forgot your Password?

 All Forums
 Forgotten Realms Products
 Forgotten Realms Novels
 Penguin Random House jacked up ebook prices
 New Topic  New Poll New Poll
 Reply to Topic
 Printer Friendly
Next Page
Author Previous Topic Topic Next Topic
Page: of 3

Ialdaas
Acolyte

USA
1 Posts

Posted - 03 Mar 2016 :  16:18:25  Show Profile Send Ialdaas a Private Message  Reply with Quote  Delete Topic
so i get ready to Pre-purchase the upcoming R.A Salvatore book...but wait whats this...the price for the ebook has shot up ~10$ past the hardback price...so i go back and look at the last book i bought (Ashes of the Tyrant by Erin M. Evans) bought 12/29/15 for 14.90$...now that book is 27$ too...

unfortunately amazon lost the control of setting prices for ebooks and publishers such as penguin random house thinks its ok to pull this kinda crap.

im goin to be nice here and just say...what are you thinking?...I mean really what are you all thinking!?!

i dont mind paying 1-2$ more then paperback for the Convenience but if you think im paying 10-20$ more over paperback...no..just no.

so post below tell me what u think...thank u

sno4wy
Senior Scribe

USA
466 Posts

Posted - 03 Mar 2016 :  19:48:50  Show Profile Send sno4wy a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I didn't know all of that concerning who controlled the e-book prices. :O Thanks for the enlightening info! I only wish that now that we know, that we could do something about it. Some other folks and I were complaining about these ridiculous e-book prices in another thread. :(
Go to Top of Page

Artemas Entreri
Great Reader

USA
3131 Posts

Posted - 03 Mar 2016 :  20:03:18  Show Profile Send Artemas Entreri a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Anything more than a 2-3 dollars for an ebook is a waste of money if you ask me. I'll always prefer to have a massmarket paperback in my hands.

Some people have a way with words, and other people...oh, uh, not have way. -Steve Martin

Amazon "KindleUnlimited" Free Trial: http://amzn.to/2AJ4yD2

Try Audible and Get 2 Free Audio Books! https://amzn.to/2IgBede
Go to Top of Page

Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
36779 Posts

Posted - 03 Mar 2016 :  20:15:48  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
It is my opinion that ebook prices should always be considerably less than print book prices, because distribution of ebooks is a one-time set up fee that can be used for any number of titles, whereas with print books, each individual title is going to have the same set of printing and distribution fees associated with it.

Distribution of the very first ebook title would like cost more than if it was in print... But once you were set up for the first title, adding additional titles for digital distribution is a negligible cost.

You'll still have the typesetting and royalties and all those fees, but distribution is where you'll see the difference between print and ebooks.

Candlekeep Forums Moderator

Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com
-- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct

I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen!
Go to Top of Page

Mirtek
Senior Scribe

595 Posts

Posted - 04 Mar 2016 :  11:46:48  Show Profile Send Mirtek a Private Message  Reply with Quote
There are weak excuses for pirating (usually delays until it's available to buy in country XY or the publisher will only dell it bundled wit X other items I don't want) and then There are reasons which don't even count as weak excuses like yours above.

You are simply saying it's too expensive and that's all the reason you need to pirate it. No excuse, however weak, at all



Mod edit: Removed the quote of a post that has been deleted.

Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 04 Mar 2016 13:17:41
Go to Top of Page

Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
36779 Posts

Posted - 04 Mar 2016 :  13:21:15  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
This is in response to a post I removed because it discussed pirating material; Mirtek's post is also in response to that now-removed post.

We do not discuss pirating material, here.

Blame whoever you want for prices; but saying you'll pirate something is saying you'll steal from the authors who quite rightly expect payment for their efforts. If you're going to not give them money, don't be an ass about it.

Candlekeep Forums Moderator

Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com
-- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct

I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen!
Go to Top of Page

Caolin
Senior Scribe

768 Posts

Posted - 04 Mar 2016 :  17:32:36  Show Profile Send Caolin a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

This is in response to a post I removed because it discussed pirating material; Mirtek's post is also in response to that now-removed post.

We do not discuss pirating material, here.

Blame whoever you want for prices; but saying you'll pirate something is saying you'll steal from the authors who quite rightly expect payment for their efforts. If you're going to not give them money, don't be an ass about it.



Sorry Wooly, if you want to censor my comments on this matter fine....it's your house. But please don't lecture me. I'm rightfully pissed and I'm VERY tired of WoTC and what they've done to the Realms. That comment came from my anger and was admittedly in bad taste. But this is something that needs to be discussed because it is GOING to happen. You can't blatantly and so clearly gouge your customers and not expect such a response.
Go to Top of Page

Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
36779 Posts

Posted - 04 Mar 2016 :  19:54:55  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Caolin

quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

This is in response to a post I removed because it discussed pirating material; Mirtek's post is also in response to that now-removed post.

We do not discuss pirating material, here.

Blame whoever you want for prices; but saying you'll pirate something is saying you'll steal from the authors who quite rightly expect payment for their efforts. If you're going to not give them money, don't be an ass about it.



Sorry Wooly, if you want to censor my comments on this matter fine....it's your house. But please don't lecture me. I'm rightfully pissed and I'm VERY tired of WoTC and what they've done to the Realms. That comment came from my anger and was admittedly in bad taste. But this is something that needs to be discussed because it is GOING to happen. You can't blatantly and so clearly gouge your customers and not expect such a response.



I didn't say you couldn't be pissed. But it's against the Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct to discussed pirating material.

I rather agree that pricing a ebook more than the hardcover is absolutely ridiculous; I cannot think of any reasonable defense for such an action. As I said earlier, I think that the smaller distribution costs for an ebook should result in a smaller sale price -- cheaper than the paperback, even.

So by all means, be angry about this. Just keep in mind that anything you say here has to stick to the rules everyone agreed to when they signed up.

Candlekeep Forums Moderator

Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com
-- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct

I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen!
Go to Top of Page

Artemas Entreri
Great Reader

USA
3131 Posts

Posted - 04 Mar 2016 :  20:42:01  Show Profile Send Artemas Entreri a Private Message  Reply with Quote
The best way to show these publishers that you don't agree with their ebook pricing is to hit them in the wallet by refusing to open yours. If the sales aren't there then the prices should drop.

Some people have a way with words, and other people...oh, uh, not have way. -Steve Martin

Amazon "KindleUnlimited" Free Trial: http://amzn.to/2AJ4yD2

Try Audible and Get 2 Free Audio Books! https://amzn.to/2IgBede
Go to Top of Page

Caolin
Senior Scribe

768 Posts

Posted - 04 Mar 2016 :  21:08:07  Show Profile Send Caolin a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

quote:
Originally posted by Caolin

quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

This is in response to a post I removed because it discussed pirating material; Mirtek's post is also in response to that now-removed post.

We do not discuss pirating material, here.

Blame whoever you want for prices; but saying you'll pirate something is saying you'll steal from the authors who quite rightly expect payment for their efforts. If you're going to not give them money, don't be an ass about it.



Sorry Wooly, if you want to censor my comments on this matter fine....it's your house. But please don't lecture me. I'm rightfully pissed and I'm VERY tired of WoTC and what they've done to the Realms. That comment came from my anger and was admittedly in bad taste. But this is something that needs to be discussed because it is GOING to happen. You can't blatantly and so clearly gouge your customers and not expect such a response.



I didn't say you couldn't be pissed. But it's against the Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct to discussed pirating material.

I rather agree that pricing a ebook more than the hardcover is absolutely ridiculous; I cannot think of any reasonable defense for such an action. As I said earlier, I think that the smaller distribution costs for an ebook should result in a smaller sale price -- cheaper than the paperback, even.

So by all means, be angry about this. Just keep in mind that anything you say here has to stick to the rules everyone agreed to when they signed up.



Noted.
Go to Top of Page

Seravin
Master of Realmslore

Canada
1265 Posts

Posted - 05 Mar 2016 :  15:27:28  Show Profile Send Seravin a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Charging more for an ebook than a HARDCOVER book is ridiculous. I can see the same price as paperback, but not hardcover costs for a simple text file. Sigh. What are they thinking? This will encourage people to pirate.
Go to Top of Page

Eilserus
Master of Realmslore

USA
1446 Posts

Posted - 05 Mar 2016 :  15:47:08  Show Profile Send Eilserus a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Some publishers seem to have a disconnect between print and digital. It's quite possible they are attempting to set the market rate at their normal prices since the profit margin on digital is so high or ensure printed products are purchased. Don't they sometimes have to buy back unsold copies? Could also just be they are clueless, though I'd find that hard to believe. I'd never pay full retail price for digital pixels when I can get the physical product for $20 bucks.
Go to Top of Page

Caolin
Senior Scribe

768 Posts

Posted - 05 Mar 2016 :  19:06:19  Show Profile Send Caolin a Private Message  Reply with Quote
From my reading, it seems like the publishers justification is that paper books degrade, eBooks do not. So they feel eBooks should cost more so they won't lose any money. They are artificially inflating the price of their product in order to protect their profit margins and their business model. Almost every expert in the field agrees that it's folly and will ultimately lead to declining sales and piracy. Which is already happening. Penguin Random House laid off over 200 people at the end of last year.
Go to Top of Page

Kentinal
Great Reader

4684 Posts

Posted - 05 Mar 2016 :  19:12:39  Show Profile Send Kentinal a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Caolin

From my reading, it seems like the publishers justification is that paper books degrade, eBooks do not. So they feel eBooks should cost more so they won't lose any money. They are artificially inflating the price of their product in order to protect their profit margins and their business model. Almost every expert in the field agrees that it's folly and will ultimately lead to declining sales and piracy. Which is already happening. Penguin Random House laid off over 200 people at the end of last year.



Rather interesting argument about paper books degrading. Especially considering I have books older then 40 years and I lost data on a Hard Drive only 10 years old.

"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon
Go to Top of Page

Irennan
Great Reader

Italy
3802 Posts

Posted - 05 Mar 2016 :  19:14:04  Show Profile Send Irennan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Seriously, it's 2016 and those businesses have yet to understand that they need to adapt to digital, not try to leech off their customers. They simply can't make money the same way as they did before.

Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things.
Go to Top of Page

Gary Dallison
Great Reader

United Kingdom
6350 Posts

Posted - 05 Mar 2016 :  19:20:43  Show Profile Send Gary Dallison a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Never mind the storage medium failing and causing the loss of books. Quite often the file types and software used to read those file types rarely last more than 10 years before they go out of circulation which means digital customers will be forced to buy old books in new format as the old format becomes obsolete.

Forgotten Realms Alternate Dimensions Candlekeep Archive
Forgotten Realms Alternate Dimensions: Issue 1
Forgotten Realms Alternate Dimensions: Issue 2
Forgotten Realms Alternate Dimensions: Issue 3
Forgotten Realms Alternate Dimensions: Issue 4
Forgotten Realms Alternate Dimensions: Issue 5
Forgotten Realms Alternate Dimensions: Issue 6
Forgotten Realms Alternate Dimensions: Issue 7
Forgotten Realms Alternate Dimensions: Issue 8
Forgotten Realms Alternate Dimensions: Issue 9

Alternate Realms Site
Go to Top of Page

Eilserus
Master of Realmslore

USA
1446 Posts

Posted - 05 Mar 2016 :  19:22:16  Show Profile Send Eilserus a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Caolin

From my reading, it seems like the publishers justification is that paper books degrade, eBooks do not. So they feel eBooks should cost more so they won't lose any money. They are artificially inflating the price of their product in order to protect their profit margins and their business model. Almost every expert in the field agrees that it's folly and will ultimately lead to declining sales and piracy. Which is already happening. Penguin Random House laid off over 200 people at the end of last year.



Kind of some strange logic considering some of the oldest hardcover novels I have are from the 90's and still in great shape. It makes sense in a way, digital books have high profit margins and being able to secure more of that pie is a good idea in theory and would do wonders to keep the sagging titans afloat. But I agree, it isn't going to work that way. Lack of demand will eventually force them to lower prices on their digital offerings.
Go to Top of Page

Irennan
Great Reader

Italy
3802 Posts

Posted - 05 Mar 2016 :  19:23:42  Show Profile Send Irennan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by dazzlerdal
Quite often the file types and software used to read those file types rarely last more than 10 years before they go out of circulation which means digital customers will be forced to buy old books in new format as the old format becomes obsolete.



Yeah, they will very likely choose this route.

Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things.
Go to Top of Page

Eilserus
Master of Realmslore

USA
1446 Posts

Posted - 05 Mar 2016 :  19:24:03  Show Profile Send Eilserus a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Irennan

Seriously, it's 2016 and those businesses have yet to understand that they need to adapt to digital, not try to leech off their customers. They simply can't make money the same way as they did before.



Precisely. They didn't adapt to digital fast enough and now they're trying to play catch-up.

Edited by - Eilserus on 05 Mar 2016 19:24:19
Go to Top of Page

Artemas Entreri
Great Reader

USA
3131 Posts

Posted - 05 Mar 2016 :  19:41:37  Show Profile Send Artemas Entreri a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Kentinal

quote:
Originally posted by Caolin

From my reading, it seems like the publishers justification is that paper books degrade, eBooks do not. So they feel eBooks should cost more so they won't lose any money. They are artificially inflating the price of their product in order to protect their profit margins and their business model. Almost every expert in the field agrees that it's folly and will ultimately lead to declining sales and piracy. Which is already happening. Penguin Random House laid off over 200 people at the end of last year.



Rather interesting argument about paper books degrading. Especially considering I have books older then 40 years and I lost data on a Hard Drive only 10 years old.



Agreed. Books will last for a long time if you take care of them.

Some people have a way with words, and other people...oh, uh, not have way. -Steve Martin

Amazon "KindleUnlimited" Free Trial: http://amzn.to/2AJ4yD2

Try Audible and Get 2 Free Audio Books! https://amzn.to/2IgBede

Edited by - Artemas Entreri on 05 Mar 2016 19:42:14
Go to Top of Page

Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
36779 Posts

Posted - 05 Mar 2016 :  21:56:17  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
The only reason I don't still have paperback books from the 80s and 90s is because they were lost in a fire.

I've read hardcovers that were 80 or 90 years old.

Candlekeep Forums Moderator

Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com
-- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct

I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen!
Go to Top of Page

Caolin
Senior Scribe

768 Posts

Posted - 06 Mar 2016 :  07:51:31  Show Profile Send Caolin a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I think the argument itself is BS quite frankly. I think it's an excuse to charge more for eBooks hopefully stifling the market and driving people back to paper books.
Go to Top of Page

Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
36779 Posts

Posted - 06 Mar 2016 :  16:09:43  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Caolin

I think the argument itself is BS quite frankly. I think it's an excuse to charge more for eBooks hopefully stifling the market and driving people back to paper books.



I would disagree. The profit margin is higher on ebooks, and the cost of setting up servers and bandwidth to sell them is not inconsiderable. Jumping into that market with the intent of destroying it is simply pissing money away, and corporations don't do that.

Candlekeep Forums Moderator

Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com
-- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct

I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen!
Go to Top of Page

Gary Dallison
Great Reader

United Kingdom
6350 Posts

Posted - 06 Mar 2016 :  17:09:50  Show Profile Send Gary Dallison a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Well corporations are people and people can be pretty stupid. I think it's OPEC that has operated at a massive loss for over two years now to collapse the American backyard oil and has business because they think they can outlast their competitors and operate at a huge loss for longer before going bust. I personally never underestimate the foolishness of corporations.

Forgotten Realms Alternate Dimensions Candlekeep Archive
Forgotten Realms Alternate Dimensions: Issue 1
Forgotten Realms Alternate Dimensions: Issue 2
Forgotten Realms Alternate Dimensions: Issue 3
Forgotten Realms Alternate Dimensions: Issue 4
Forgotten Realms Alternate Dimensions: Issue 5
Forgotten Realms Alternate Dimensions: Issue 6
Forgotten Realms Alternate Dimensions: Issue 7
Forgotten Realms Alternate Dimensions: Issue 8
Forgotten Realms Alternate Dimensions: Issue 9

Alternate Realms Site
Go to Top of Page

Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
36779 Posts

Posted - 06 Mar 2016 :  17:38:06  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by dazzlerdal

Well corporations are people and people can be pretty stupid. I think it's OPEC that has operated at a massive loss for over two years now to collapse the American backyard oil and has business because they think they can outlast their competitors and operate at a huge loss for longer before going bust. I personally never underestimate the foolishness of corporations.



That's trying to stifle competition, and thus increase their own profits long-term. It's not at all the same thing as suggesting a company is going to spend lots of money to create a more profitable business model with the sole intent of destroying it to go back to a less profitable one.

Candlekeep Forums Moderator

Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com
-- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct

I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen!
Go to Top of Page

Gary Dallison
Great Reader

United Kingdom
6350 Posts

Posted - 06 Mar 2016 :  17:46:45  Show Profile Send Gary Dallison a Private Message  Reply with Quote
It's the same thing if they think what they are doing will succeed. Corporations tend to be very insular, taking their own counsel and listening only to opinions that validate their own. That's why we perceive corporate types as yes men

Forgotten Realms Alternate Dimensions Candlekeep Archive
Forgotten Realms Alternate Dimensions: Issue 1
Forgotten Realms Alternate Dimensions: Issue 2
Forgotten Realms Alternate Dimensions: Issue 3
Forgotten Realms Alternate Dimensions: Issue 4
Forgotten Realms Alternate Dimensions: Issue 5
Forgotten Realms Alternate Dimensions: Issue 6
Forgotten Realms Alternate Dimensions: Issue 7
Forgotten Realms Alternate Dimensions: Issue 8
Forgotten Realms Alternate Dimensions: Issue 9

Alternate Realms Site
Go to Top of Page

Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
36779 Posts

Posted - 06 Mar 2016 :  18:31:53  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by dazzlerdal

It's the same thing if they think what they are doing will succeed. Corporations tend to be very insular, taking their own counsel and listening only to opinions that validate their own. That's why we perceive corporate types as yes men



No, deliberately pissing money down the drain with no possible return is not at all the same thing. No corporation is going to create a highly profitable revenue stream with the express intent of killing that revenue stream in favor of a less profitable one.

It would make more sense to get out of print books than it would to jump into ebooks with the intent of pushing business back towards print books.

Corporations want the most profit they can get in the long term. There is no long term profit in pursuing a more profitable plan and then dumping it in favor of the less profitable one. Not only is that less money coming in, it's less money overall because of the investment in ebook infrastructure.

I really wish we could stop assigning malicious intent with every decision we don't agree with, here. It was bad enough when we were attacking WotC at the drop of a hat -- now we're going after other businesses, as well.

This price raise is pure greed -- it's someone who doesn't understand anything about the market trying to pad the bottom line. It's not an attempt to destroy ebooks or anything else.

Candlekeep Forums Moderator

Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com
-- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct

I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen!
Go to Top of Page

Gary Dallison
Great Reader

United Kingdom
6350 Posts

Posted - 06 Mar 2016 :  18:37:50  Show Profile Send Gary Dallison a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I don't think there is anything malicious about it necessarily. I just think these people are stuck in the past, don't understand their market and have gotten digital all wrong (probably hiring expensive consultants to build expensive solutions) and so have to price Ebooks so high in order to make a profit.

Like I said, never underestimate peoples foolishness, especially when it comes to money, and corporations are full of foolish people

Forgotten Realms Alternate Dimensions Candlekeep Archive
Forgotten Realms Alternate Dimensions: Issue 1
Forgotten Realms Alternate Dimensions: Issue 2
Forgotten Realms Alternate Dimensions: Issue 3
Forgotten Realms Alternate Dimensions: Issue 4
Forgotten Realms Alternate Dimensions: Issue 5
Forgotten Realms Alternate Dimensions: Issue 6
Forgotten Realms Alternate Dimensions: Issue 7
Forgotten Realms Alternate Dimensions: Issue 8
Forgotten Realms Alternate Dimensions: Issue 9

Alternate Realms Site
Go to Top of Page

sno4wy
Senior Scribe

USA
466 Posts

Posted - 06 Mar 2016 :  21:39:33  Show Profile Send sno4wy a Private Message  Reply with Quote
What, if anything, could we, the readers, do to convey to them how foolish this move is, other than not buying the Kindle editions? I feel like there must be something more proactive in addition to that.
Go to Top of Page

Irennan
Great Reader

Italy
3802 Posts

Posted - 06 Mar 2016 :  21:52:16  Show Profile Send Irennan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by sno4wy

What, if anything, could we, the readers, do to convey to them how foolish this move is, other than not buying the Kindle editions? I feel like there must be something more proactive in addition to that.



Poke their customer service? And that's assuming that they actually bother with listening to feedback. I mean, if they don't care about what the experts in the field say...

Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things.
Go to Top of Page

Artemas Entreri
Great Reader

USA
3131 Posts

Posted - 07 Mar 2016 :  00:51:06  Show Profile Send Artemas Entreri a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by sno4wy

What, if anything, could we, the readers, do to convey to them how foolish this move is, other than not buying the Kindle editions? I feel like there must be something more proactive in addition to that.



There is nothing more ACTIVE than not giving them money.

Some people have a way with words, and other people...oh, uh, not have way. -Steve Martin

Amazon "KindleUnlimited" Free Trial: http://amzn.to/2AJ4yD2

Try Audible and Get 2 Free Audio Books! https://amzn.to/2IgBede
Go to Top of Page
Page: of 3 Previous Topic Topic Next Topic  
Next Page
 New Topic  New Poll New Poll
 Reply to Topic
 Printer Friendly
Jump To:
Candlekeep Forum © 1999-2024 Candlekeep.com Go To Top Of Page
Snitz Forums 2000