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Gyor
Master of Realmslore
1621 Posts |
 Posted - 02 Jan 2016 : 22:23:28
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Wow, Erin's best novel yet, but please tell me there is going to be a sequel?
Spoilers
So much going on. There seems to be two main story lines, the one in Tymanther and Dahl's.
This feels like the Sundering novel I was waiting for all along ironically.
I knew from the Sword Coast Campaign guide that Giligamesh was back, but Enlil's return was a surprise and it possibly hints that the rest of the Unther Pantheon is back as well.
Gilgamesh, Enlil, Grazzt, possibly Selune/Nanna-Sin?, Orcus, Glasya, Asmodeaus, Lady Malcanthet, Xinivae, Azuth, Tiamat all making somekind of appearance or mention.
On one level its a series of personal stories, Havilar, Farideh, Lorcan, Dalh and his family, Mehen and the other Dragonborn.
On another level its a complex political story working on multiple levels, their is the mortal level, politicing who will be the next Vankisher, internal clan politics, relations between High Imaskar which at this point is being crushed by Mulhorand, and Tymanther.
On a high level is cosmic politics, rivalries between Gods, Archdevils, Demon Princes, Succubi Queens.
Tymanther is in an awkward position now. Unther is back and who knows how much Tymanther lost in the process is unknown.
Its ally High Imaskar is being crushed by Mulhorand and is in no position to help and in fact is requesting more military aid. Mulhorand is unlikely to resent the help Tymanther gave to Imaskar.
Gilgamesh had the help of Grazzt.
And Tymanther is ironically in the strange position of being in debted to Enlil and Asmodeaus for saving it. The Dragonborn don't likw being indebt to Gods.
Also I'm wondering if Selune and Nanna-Sin the Unther God of the Moon have some how merge?
There has to be a sequel, please tell me their is, I hope you won't us hanging with Havilar possessed by her ancestor's ghost, an army near to the gates of the Tymanther capital, Dalh so near to it, Sesseca's bizzaire situation, ect... all just hanging?
I'm glad the Untherite Gods are back as well the Mulhorandi Gods.
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Gyor
Master of Realmslore
1621 Posts |
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Gyor
Master of Realmslore
1621 Posts |
Posted - 02 Jan 2016 : 23:27:47
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I also love the mini plot line going on with the Succubi Queens.
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Gyor
Master of Realmslore
1621 Posts |
Posted - 03 Jan 2016 : 05:12:02
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| I hope we get an updated map of the old empires region with the next book. |
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darkstar77
Acolyte
2 Posts |
Posted - 06 Jan 2016 : 16:15:38
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| Yay! Someone actually posted on this. SOOOOO much happening it blew my mind. I reached the end where I thought I would have my questions answered but it created an explosion of a million more questions. Awesome stuff happening and Erin M Evans is an amazing addition to the stories of the Realms! I would like to think that they don't bring back both pantheons completely only for the sake of having too many gods to deal with. The merging of some gods makes a bit more sense. How they deal with Dragonborn and their strong dislike of the 'yoke' is another thing. The citizens of Tymanther sort of cant ignore that they now have a Chosen from their own people in their midst.. They will have to come to grips with it one way or another. |
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darkstar77
Acolyte
2 Posts |
Posted - 06 Jan 2016 : 16:49:08
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| There is a sequel. We just don't know when... I would guess 2017. Also, There is a AMA over at https://www.reddit.com/r/fantasy today January 6th. I dont know when it starts though. |
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Gyor
Master of Realmslore
1621 Posts |
Posted - 08 Jan 2016 : 16:27:20
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I feel bad for Lynkhhab as she seems left out. Xinivarae Queen of Neutral Evil Succubi, Malcanthet for Lawful Evil Succubi, Shami-Amourae Succubi Queen of Chaotic Evil Succubi.
Maybe Lynkhab could be the Succubi Queen for Unaligned Succubi.
Lynkhab is my favourite of the Succubi Queens, she's oddly self less. |
Edited by - Gyor on 08 Jan 2016 16:30:45 |
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Firestorm
Senior Scribe
Canada
826 Posts |
Posted - 08 Jan 2016 : 23:34:47
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I pooped when Giljeam said "Were home"
Now Bring Back Shurrupak, he greatest assassin the realms has ever known! And chosen of Giljeam! |
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Tanthalas
Senior Scribe
Portugal
508 Posts |
Posted - 09 Jan 2016 : 03:44:15
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quote:
Originally posted by Gyor
Gilgamesh had the help of Grazzt.
Are we sure of this? Seemed like he just got back by chance and whoever was helped by Grazzt is a different person/entity.
And it's great that Djerad Thymar remained in the setting. |
Sir Markham pointed out, drinking another brandy. "A chap who can point at you and say 'die' has the distinct advantage". |
Edited by - Tanthalas on 09 Jan 2016 03:45:43 |
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Lilianviaten
Senior Scribe
489 Posts |
Posted - 09 Jan 2016 : 15:42:18
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quote:
Originally posted by Firestorm
I pooped when Giljeam said "Were home"
Now Bring Back Shurrupak, he greatest assassin the realms has ever known! And chosen of Giljeam!
Oh yeah! I always wanted to see Shurrupak novelized. I have a pet peeve about WOTC creating awesome NPCs and then never giving them any facetime in novels. After a certain point, they become so epic that nobody except Ed is actually willing to write about them. |
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Lilianviaten
Senior Scribe
489 Posts |
Posted - 09 Jan 2016 : 16:05:36
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quote:
Originally posted by Tanthalas
quote:
Originally posted by Gyor
Gilgamesh had the help of Grazzt.
Are we sure of this? Seemed like he just got back by chance and whoever was helped by Grazzt is a different person/entity.
And it's great that Djerad Thymar remained in the setting.
The maurezhi said that Grazzt had sent him with a mission on behalf of the "King of Dust" (a being he referred to as being lesser than Grazzt). The maurezhi seemed to have no personal experience with the King of Dust, only helping him for fear of being tortured by Grazzt.
When Gilgeam shows up, it makes perfect sense. Enlil has empowered Dumuzi as his Chosen to help defend the city of dragonborn, BUT the Maurezhi's plan was to take out all of Djerad Thymar's military leadership, then send all its most valuable defenders (the bat riders) off away from the city. That would make it easy pickings for a returning Unther.
Thus, it only makes sense if Grazzt and Gilgeam have a deal. Grazzt himself shows no interest in taking the city. He's content to spend his time in the Underdark (and I'm not sure exactly what he's doing down there). I also don't understand the pressing need to bring Gilgeam back, because Tiamat killed him long before the Spellplague. |
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Lilianviaten
Senior Scribe
489 Posts |
Posted - 09 Jan 2016 : 18:11:26
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quote:
Originally posted by darkstar77
Yay! Someone actually posted on this. SOOOOO much happening it blew my mind. I reached the end where I thought I would have my questions answered but it created an explosion of a million more questions. Awesome stuff happening and Erin M Evans is an amazing addition to the stories of the Realms! I would like to think that they don't bring back both pantheons completely only for the sake of having too many gods to deal with. The merging of some gods makes a bit more sense. How they deal with Dragonborn and their strong dislike of the 'yoke' is another thing. The citizens of Tymanther sort of cant ignore that they now have a Chosen from their own people in their midst.. They will have to come to grips with it one way or another.
Completely agree with all this, especially about the brilliance of Erin Evans. On the gods, I certainly hope they merge some. While it's true that the vast pantheon adds flavor to the setting, that's due to the variety of the portfolios, not just the number of gods. Having a bunch of cookie cutter evil tyrants like Gilgeam around isn't more interesting. |
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ErinMEvans
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
294 Posts |
Posted - 09 Jan 2016 : 19:58:57
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quote:
Originally posted by Lilianviaten
quote:
Originally posted by Tanthalas
quote:
Originally posted by Gyor
Gilgamesh had the help of Grazzt.
Are we sure of this? Seemed like he just got back by chance and whoever was helped by Grazzt is a different person/entity.
And it's great that Djerad Thymar remained in the setting.
The maurezhi said that Grazzt had sent him with a mission on behalf of the "King of Dust" (a being he refe
rred to as being lesser than Grazzt). The maurezhi seemed to have no personal experience with the King of Dust, only helping him for fear of being tortured by Grazzt.
When Gilgeam shows up, it makes perfect sense. Enlil has empowered Dumuzi as his Chosen to help defend the city of dragonborn, BUT the Maurezhi's plan was to take out all of Djerad Thymar's military leadership, then send all its most valuable defenders (the bat riders) off away from the city. That would make it easy pickings for a returning Unther.
Thus, it only makes sense if Grazzt and Gilgeam have a deal. Grazzt himself shows no interest in taking the city.
Clarification: Gilgeam indeed made a deal with Graz'zt, for reinforcements to take Shyr, the genasi capital in Abeir. Part of that deal involved infiltrators like the maurezhi, but in the moment the maurezhi was sent, the Rage of Demons spell that yanked all the demon lords into the Underdark happened, pulling Graz'zt into Faerūn and throwing the maurezhi off course into Djerad Thymar. It doesn't initially realize this is wrong city as it starts out kind of stupid. But by the end it's realized the mistake and recognized that the planes will collide again. "You're not the one he wants but you're the one he'll get." The planar collision is indeed not Gilgeam's doing, but he's sure as hell going to spin it that way.
quote:
He's content to spend his time in the Underdark (and I'm not sure exactly what he's doing down there). I also don't understand the pressing need to bring Gilgeam back, because Tiamat killed him long before the Spellplague.
1. That's the Rage of Demons storyline. You will unfortunately not see his coming battle with Orcus down there, interrupting further attempts to gain the surface and the Master's Library.
2. He's here because the RPG team wanted him here. I do think his presence characterizes "Returned Unther" pretty well. |
www.slushlush.com |
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Lilianviaten
Senior Scribe
489 Posts |
Posted - 09 Jan 2016 : 20:18:45
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quote:
Originally posted by ErinMEvans
quote:
Originally posted by Lilianviaten
quote:
Originally posted by Tanthalas
quote:
Originally posted by Gyor
Gilgamesh had the help of Grazzt.
Are we sure of this? Seemed like he just got back by chance and whoever was helped by Grazzt is a different person/entity.
And it's great that Djerad Thymar remained in the setting.
The maurezhi said that Grazzt had sent him with a mission on behalf of the "King of Dust" (a being he refe
rred to as being lesser than Grazzt). The maurezhi seemed to have no personal experience with the King of Dust, only helping him for fear of being tortured by Grazzt.
When Gilgeam shows up, it makes perfect sense. Enlil has empowered Dumuzi as his Chosen to help defend the city of dragonborn, BUT the Maurezhi's plan was to take out all of Djerad Thymar's military leadership, then send all its most valuable defenders (the bat riders) off away from the city. That would make it easy pickings for a returning Unther.
Thus, it only makes sense if Grazzt and Gilgeam have a deal. Grazzt himself shows no interest in taking the city.
Clarification: Gilgeam indeed made a deal with Graz'zt, for reinforcements to take Shyr, the genasi capital in Abeir. Part of that deal involved infiltrators like the maurezhi, but in the moment the maurezhi was sent, the Rage of Demons spell that yanked all the demon lords into the Underdark happened, pulling Graz'zt into Faerūn and throwing the maurezhi off course into Djerad Thymar. It doesn't initially realize this is wrong city as it starts out kind of stupid. But by the end it's realized the mistake and recognized that the planes will collide again. "You're not the one he wants but you're the one he'll get." The planar collision is indeed not Gilgeam's doing, but he's sure as hell going to spin it that way.
quote:
He's content to spend his time in the Underdark (and I'm not sure exactly what he's doing down there). I also don't understand the pressing need to bring Gilgeam back, because Tiamat killed him long before the Spellplague.
1. That's the Rage of Demons storyline. You will unfortunately not see his coming battle with Orcus down there, interrupting further attempts to gain the surface and the Master's Library.
2. He's here because the RPG team wanted him here. I do think his presence characterizes "Returned Unther" pretty well.
Ah, gotcha. I had wondered about that line. I'm wondering if you can answer a few questions for me in that vein.
1) What would you expect Graz'zt to gain in a parlay with Gilgeam? Surely Gilgeam, being the paranoid tyrant that he is, won't allow any demon cults in Returned Unther.
2) Why would Gilgeam trust Graz'zt with this task? Being as lawful as he is, I would think Gilgeam would consider a demon unreliable, and might instead seek an archdevil's help.
3) Why would Gilgeam need any help? Was Unther badly weakened by its time in Abeir? Is Gilgeam back in a less powerful state?
4) What betrayal was Graz'zt referring to? (When discussing Asmodeus with the Brimstone Angel)
5) Will the Brimstone Angel actually receive the aid she's seeking from Orcus? And why would she expect that he won't kill her on sight? Was she triple dealing with Asmodeus, Graz'zt, and Orcus all this time? (That seems awfully bold) |
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ErinMEvans
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
294 Posts |
Posted - 10 Jan 2016 : 18:13:05
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quote:
Originally posted by Lilianviaten
Ah, gotcha. I had wondered about that line. I'm wondering if you can answer a few questions for me in that vein.
1) What would you expect Graz'zt to gain in a parlay with Gilgeam? Surely Gilgeam, being the paranoid tyrant that he is, won't allow any demon cults in Returned Unther.
2) Why would Gilgeam trust Graz'zt with this task? Being as lawful as he is, I would think Gilgeam would consider a demon unreliable, and might instead seek an archdevil's help.
3) Why would Gilgeam need any help? Was Unther badly weakened by its time in Abeir? Is Gilgeam back in a less powerful state?
This is coming close to spoilers, but I would point out the following clues that suggest this Gilgeam is not exactly what he seems, because IMO that doesn't count! :)
1. The maurezhi says the King of Dust is not as powerful as Graz'zt. While that might be bravado, it might also be an accurate assessment.
2. The picture you're given of Abeir is one where extraordinary measures must be taken. There is no way that Unther persisted untouched in a world where things like the ancestor stories went down.
3. Gods aren't allowed in Abeir. If Gilgeam were the same and still lawful, one assumes he would not bust this law. (I think there's an argument that Asmodeus, who seems a little nouveau divin if you know what I mean, would stick hard to that rule just to prove he counts)
4. Gilgeam is only called Gilgeam by one of his followers, Namshita, who is ultimately only repeating what she's been told (She doesn't have a copy of Faiths & Pantheons)
5. She also calls him the "Son of Victory," Gilgeam's epithet was the "Father of Victory."
Sooo...all signs point to things being more complicated than, "Gilgeam and Unther are back like they never left." And I will say until other circumstances required it to change, the next book was called "King of Dust" so there is definitely more of this. Honestly if the adventure story arc hadn't required the use of demons and the Underdark, this book probably would have been about Unther and Gilgeam and Tymanther and Enlil, but that story had to be split to accommodate. So there's more coming.
quote:
4) What betrayal was Graz'zt referring to? (When discussing Asmodeus with the Brimstone Angel)
I don't have my sourcebooks handy for a page number, but in 4E they revealed the long-held detail that Graz'zt used to be a devil. And specifically that Glasya herself stabbed him in the back in battle afterward. I think it's plausible that Graz'zt in his vanity frames his side switching as something the devils brought on themselves--their betrayal, not his. Moreover, if it weren't entirely his choice, they didn't come save him. (This is also why he recognizes the erinyes--they have fought on the same side and as enemies)
I think BK is juuuuust cocky enough to make the wordplay, and indeed, that might be what bites her in the backside.
quote:
5) Will the Brimstone Angel actually receive the aid she's seeking from Orcus? And why would she expect that he won't kill her on sight? Was she triple dealing with Asmodeus, Graz'zt, and Orcus all this time? (That seems awfully bold)
She does receive it. She uses the spell on Havilar and Farideh.
It doesn't really matter if he kills her--Sairche is dying at this point, she's got to get a new body, and this is the best, fastest option she has. If he kills Sairche, BK has a moment to escape as a ghost and get out. She is awfully bold. She's awfully desperate too. (And the next book will give a better picture of just who she was and is).
The attempt to deal with Graz'zt is new--although given she knows that he's her progenitor, it's possible she's tried to speak to him in the past. As her conversation with Orcus (and earlier with Phrenike) makes clear, she did deal with Orcus in a limited capacity--and Orcus doesn't much want to deal with her again after that. But the fact is that all these demon lords are in the Underdark, separate from their layers and their minions and some portion of their powers--and no one knows why at this point. But Orcus does know that if he's trapped so is Graz'zt. And he hates that guy. Unfortunately, this was the idea Troy and I worked up to link our books, and Throne of the Dead was since cancelled, so it only leads into your imagination. :) |
www.slushlush.com |
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Gyor
Master of Realmslore
1621 Posts |
Posted - 12 Jan 2016 : 02:27:59
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Its a new mortal manifestation of Gilgeam using the same old trick of using a mortal incarnation to get past the no Gods allowed rule that allowed the Mulhorandi & Untherite Pantheons get get past the Imaskari's God Barrier in the first place.
As for the new Gilgeam being same/different then the last Gilgeam then of these incarnations like Hindu Avatars (as opposed to typical D&D Avatars).
You have Rama, Krishna, (according to some Hindus) Buddha, and Kalki all said to be Avatars of the God Vishnu, but each is also an individual with their own personality.
Rama was a King, Krishma I was a hero, Buddha well, you know Buddha, and Kalki is Vishnu's scary side and final Avatar yet to come.
All very different, mortal, yet still all Vishnu.
I assume its like this with the Untherite and Mulhorand Deities (with Sharess/Bast being alittle more complex because of mergers with other Gods like Zandilar and Fedalie).
Plus these Gods divide themselves between a ageless but otherwise mortal manifestation and lesser more mortal incarnations tradionally as I understand it, adding an extra layer of complexity.
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Gyor
Master of Realmslore
1621 Posts |
Posted - 12 Jan 2016 : 02:34:08
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| I know Vishnu has more Avatars, those four were just examples. |
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Gyor
Master of Realmslore
1621 Posts |
Posted - 12 Jan 2016 : 02:35:29
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quote:
Originally posted by Gyor
Its a new mortal manifestation of Gilgeam using the same old trick of using a mortal incarnation to get past the no Gods allowed rule that allowed the Mulhorandi & Untherite Pantheons get get past the Imaskari's God Barrier in the first place.
As for the new Gilgeam being same/different then the last Gilgeam then of these incarnations like Hindu Avatars (as opposed to typical D&D Avatars).
You have Rama, Krishna, (according to some Hindus) Buddha, and Kalki all said to be Avatars of the God Vishnu, but each is also an individual with their own personality.
Rama was a King, Krishna was a hero, Buddha well, you know Buddha, and Kalki is Vishnu's scary side and final Avatar yet to come.
All very different, mortal, yet still all Vishnu.
I assume its like this with the Untherite and Mulhorand Deities (with Sharess/Bast being alittle more complex because of mergers with other Gods like Zandilar and Fedalie).
Plus these Gods divide themselves between a ageless but otherwise mortal manifestation and lesser more mortal incarnations tradionally as I understand it, adding an extra layer of complexity.
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader
USA
2708 Posts |
Posted - 12 Jan 2016 : 02:51:40
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Just finished the book today, and I loved it. Erin does a great job of balancing personal issues (like relationships), with -epic- issues. I care about what is happening in Faerun, and I care about what is happening to the characters. The intrigue and detail in this book kept me on my seat. I love stories involving gods, so this was right up my ally, though I am admit I am not very familiar with the Unther pantheon, so I had to look up some things.
I am glad Havi and Brin are back together (though now Havi is in, uh, voluntary trouble, shall we say?), and I torn between whether I want Farideh to be with Lorcan or with Dahl. Lorcan can be a real [insert word of choice] but I love him. I have a thing for handsome demon characters, I guess LOL. Maybe Fari will be unconventional and have both. Of course, they would have to find some way to get a long. Good luck with that. Speaking of Lorcan, the intrigue going on in the Hells is a reflection of the intrigue and mystery that is going on above, as well. I can't wait to see what happens next.
I am also interested to see what happens with Mehen and Kallan and/or Arjhani, but there is a lot of turmoil going on with the dragonborn right now, so knowing Mehen, he will set personal issues aside. I admire that about him, but I'm also like "c'mon, you need support from someone".
A great read, and I can see how it ties into events currently happening in Faerun. Shame about Troy's book, though. It's disappointing when a storyline is created, and each author adds to it, but leaves room for another author to take up more, but then that falls through. Not the author's fault, it's just a shame. |
Sweet water and light laughter |
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Shemmy
Senior Scribe
USA
492 Posts |
Posted - 12 Jan 2016 : 17:20:47
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quote:
Originally posted by ErinMEvans
I don't have my sourcebooks handy for a page number, but in 4E they revealed the long-held detail that Graz'zt used to be a devil. And specifically that Glasya herself stabbed him in the back in battle afterward. I think it's plausible that Graz'zt in his vanity frames his side switching as something the devils brought on themselves--their betrayal, not his. Moreover, if it weren't entirely his choice, they didn't come save him. (This is also why he recognizes the erinyes--they have fought on the same side and as enemies)
One question for you Erin, regarding the 4e reveal. That reveal was technically within the core 4e cosmology which FR was sort of along for the ride with, so what determined that that particular element was then chosen to overwrite Graz'zt's already established heritage across multiple sources from 2e and 3e (that he was the child of the Obyrith lord Pale Night), both in 4e and then retained once 5e rolled around and more or less reverted to a variant of the 1e/2e/3e Great Wheel cosmology?
There's a seriously massive amount of planar continuity prior to 4e that ended up being damaged by the assumption that 4e's core cosmology was also true for FR, retroactively or otherwise. How much of that process of attempting to integrate the often mutually exclusive 1e/2e/3e planar lore with the 4e lore moving into 5e was determined by the RPG team versus given to the novel authors to determine on their own as it applied? |
Shemeska the Marauder, King of the Crosstrade; voted #1 best Arcanaloth in Sigil two hundred years running by the people who know what's best for them; chant broker; prospective Sigil council member next election; and official travel agent for Chamada Holiday specials LLC.
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 12 Jan 2016 : 17:43:35
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| Is there any reason Grazzt's dad couldn't have been a baatezu, thus allowing him to be one? (or maybe he could have been something unique, able to claim to be a member of either side) |
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Veritas
Learned Scribe
209 Posts |
Posted - 13 Jan 2016 : 19:35:49
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After reading the book, I only have one takeaway.
Erin has a potty mouth.
(I am scandalized by all of that foul language!)
Edit: Erin has really won me over with the series. At the start, I'll say her first book felt like "Twilight: Faerun Edition" which put me off. That isn't a knock against her or the first book, it just struck me that way. By her last book, I loved her take on Cormyr, and give her all the credit for my not loathing the idea of Dragonborn in the Forgotten Realms.
I eagerly await the conclusion to this arc.
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Edited by - Veritas on 13 Jan 2016 19:45:06 |
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Gyor
Master of Realmslore
1621 Posts |
Posted - 13 Jan 2016 : 19:50:32
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I don't think the FR's Grazzt's back ground had been revealed till now.
But it could be that Grazzt's mother was Pale Night and his father an archdevil. |
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Gyor
Master of Realmslore
1621 Posts |
Posted - 13 Jan 2016 : 19:51:50
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| Oops wooly already said what I said. I need to pay better attention. |
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ErinMEvans
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
294 Posts |
Posted - 15 Jan 2016 : 18:19:21
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quote:
Originally posted by Shemmy
quote:
Originally posted by ErinMEvans
I don't have my sourcebooks handy for a page number, but in 4E they revealed the long-held detail that Graz'zt used to be a devil. And specifically that Glasya herself stabbed him in the back in battle afterward. I think it's plausible that Graz'zt in his vanity frames his side switching as something the devils brought on themselves--their betrayal, not his. Moreover, if it weren't entirely his choice, they didn't come save him. (This is also why he recognizes the erinyes--they have fought on the same side and as enemies)
One question for you Erin, regarding the 4e reveal. That reveal was technically within the core 4e cosmology which FR was sort of along for the ride with, so what determined that that particular element was then chosen to overwrite Graz'zt's already established heritage across multiple sources from 2e and 3e (that he was the child of the Obyrith lord Pale Night), both in 4e and then retained once 5e rolled around and more or less reverted to a variant of the 1e/2e/3e Great Wheel cosmology?
There's a seriously massive amount of planar continuity prior to 4e that ended up being damaged by the assumption that 4e's core cosmology was also true for FR, retroactively or otherwise. How much of that process of attempting to integrate the often mutually exclusive 1e/2e/3e planar lore with the 4e lore moving into 5e was determined by the RPG team versus given to the novel authors to determine on their own as it applied?
So..."Who's fault is this?"  Probably a little of both.
My approximate conversation with RPG.
Them: We're doing a story arc about demon lords in the Underdark. Here's the gist of it. Everyone will have a demon lord. We think you should do Graz'zt.
Me: Because he's the sexy one.
Them:...Um...well...Maybe.
Me: I don't like Graz'zt. He suffers from too many cooks in the kitchen. It's blurred the line between devils and demons and it's hard to use that with what I've already got.
Them: Oh well he was a devil.
And here, I am given the impression this fact was being held for a big reveal, but ended up being kind of slipped out in 4E. I don't remember the exact words, and if anything's getting repeated, I know it's this, so I'm not going to try and quote.
Me:...That...That I can maybe work with.
(Followed by a long more-or-less monologue about what makes Graz'zt demonic vs anything else and how to make that clearer. Which I've already talked about in Dragon+, on the D&D podcast, and probably here, somewhere. I will repeat it if you all want.)
If you've read the book, you know that Graz'zt's past is not the central point. A few oblique references are all that exist on my part. I didn't worry too much about knitting the lore on that level. So how do you reconcile?
1. The above as Wooly posited. He's actually a half-breed. The Abyss was always in his heart. He was always going to switch sides.
Or we go the other way: Perception outweighs truth. Nobody in the Abyss has a copy of the Fiend Folio. You only know what you've experienced or what you've been told. So:
2. Pale Night's parentage is a cover. A quick skim phrases this "fact" as something not even Pale Night acknowledges. Now, I don't have all the sourcebooks at hand, so maybe I'm missing a planar birth certificate. There is a one month old baby sleeping on me as I type this, so I'm not going digging. But honestly I dig the idea that this is a big fat propaganda push. I've always been here. I've always been one of the demon lords. And if he's not? Well there's another reason he can't claim that Prince of the Demons title, despite having more territory, etc. Which also suggests he owes Pale Night. Story hook!
3. "Mother" is a metaphor. Maybe Pale Night is the one who made him into a demon. Maybe he still owes her. How many of her other "children" have the same background? What happens if a powerful baddie discovers this possibility? Story hook!
4. He's never been a devil. The propaganda comes out of the Nine Hells, better to focus the diabolic army against this "traitor." Are you going to argue when an archdevil tells you that demon lord used to be one of us? Do you want to be demoted? n that case, those oblique references are BK being wrong and Graz'zt toying with her because he knows its garbage. Why not? He sets her up to crash spectacularly as it is. There you go: you can ignore the 4E lore.
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6351 Posts |
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ErinMEvans
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
294 Posts |
Posted - 15 Jan 2016 : 18:28:35
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quote:
Originally posted by Veritas
After reading the book, I only have one takeaway.
Erin has a potty mouth.
(I am scandalized by all of that foul language!)
I can believe in magic and dragons and weird demons and devil-gods. I do not believe in devils and soldiers who don't curse.
Also, I prefer "salty." :)
quote:
Edit: Erin has really won me over with the series. At the start, I'll say her first book felt like "Twilight: Faerun Edition" which put me off. That isn't a knock against her or the first book, it just struck me that way. By her last book, I loved her take on Cormyr, and give her all the credit for my not loathing the idea of Dragonborn in the Forgotten Realms.
I eagerly await the conclusion to this arc.
It was Twilight.
Well, it was actually, "What if you had the set up of Twilight and there was never a question that this was a bad thing?" Which, real talk, parallels the Infernal/Fiendish Pact warlock pretty well. Maybe making a deal with an evil, ageless, planar entity is a Good Idea at the Time, but a Happily Ever After? No. But presumably if you're choosing this class, there's a reason your character doesn't bail out pronto. The benefits outweigh the drawbacks. Which, hey! That's a pretty tight summation of why folks stay in abusive relationships.
The fun has been in starting readers with "Oh honey, no. No, no, no. Don't listen to him." and getting them to "Oh but maybe he'll change."
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ErinMEvans
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
294 Posts |
Posted - 15 Jan 2016 : 18:31:57
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quote:
Originally posted by dazzlerdal
I especially like option number 2. How does one become a demon. I thought they spawned from the abyss (unlike devils which are moulded from souls) so what would someone have to go through to be remade as a demon? I bet the answer is nasty.
I vote something like being ground down into your component molecules and made to rebuild yourself, like a busted magic teleporter. Birthed out of chaos and destruction, requires tapping the Abyss's energy and an incredible amount of willfulness. |
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6351 Posts |
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ErinMEvans
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
294 Posts |
Posted - 15 Jan 2016 : 18:55:24
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quote:
Originally posted by dazzlerdal
Not bad, I imagined something a bit more painful and organic though (I always thought of the abyss as alive somehow) maybe being dissolved in acid (in a gigantic stomach) before being ground into a paste (by a gizzard) then separated out into component molecules before being reformed molecule by molecule into a new form.
Basically a gigantic alimentary canal that takes in matter and converts into demons
Love it.
Maybe you can tailor it to the subject. Having Graz'zt torn apart by the demons he would seek to rule over has a kind of symmetry. Attack that sense of hierarchy and tyranny.
Ooh! Or maybe they tear him apart AND eat him.
Rebuild yourself out of succubus feces. Prove you're in it to win it.  |
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6351 Posts |
Posted - 15 Jan 2016 : 19:32:15
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quote:
Love it.
Maybe you can tailor it to the subject. Having Graz'zt torn apart by the demons he would seek to rule over has a kind of symmetry. Attack that sense of hierarchy and tyranny.
Ooh! Or maybe they tear him apart AND eat him.
Rebuild yourself out of succubus feces. Prove you're in it to win it.
Just thinking out loud here but devils are formed from an inherent basis in the lawful nature of the universe. Souls are stuck into a great big pit, stripped of personality and changed into lemures.
Either those that survive and are transformed into the next stage do so through luck or because the law of the universe deemed it to always be so and that they were always going to become what they are.
Demons therefore should be created by chaos more than anything else (and drawing on your idea of succubus faeces). Demons are said to collect and eat souls. What if those consumed souls are sent to the bowels (where things are broken down and absorbed) of the abyss along with the bodies of those taken by demons and other random crap they consume.
In the stomach layer all the bodies and matter are burned by acid and fire then ground down into a paste in a gizzard layer and then squeezed into the next tube like layer where it is all mixed with the bile and enzymatic equivalent of the abyss.
From that chaotic mixture form bodies rather spontaneously (in my own rules each demon is unique but some are similar enough to be recognised a having similar traits and therefore given a racial typing).
Demons also have a form known as loumara (from 3e) which were possessing spirits) so what if the souls of creatures consumed by the demons are then altered through a different process and then chucked into the mixing layer where they have to possess a body, some then battle the other creatures to retain possession of their prized form or conquer nearby more desirable forms.
This then relies on complete and total chaos and the random nature of the universe where the strongest survive by taking what they want.
Just an idea based on succubus faeces |
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Ashes of the Tyrant Review: Spoilers
