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shimmertook
Acolyte
USA
7 Posts |
 Posted - 04 Dec 2015 : 21:56:08
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Has anyone noticed that the Mike Schley map of northern Faerūn from the new Sword Coast Adventurer's Guide shows a scale that is inconsistent with the map from the Lost Mine of Phandelver?
Granted, there is no scale on the map published in the actual book. Since I'm knee deep in a Sword Coast adventure right now I thought I might purchase the full size map from his website, which does include a scale.
In the LMoP adventure on the Sword Coast map, Neverwinter to Leilon is about 13 hexes, 65 miles. Though Leilon isn't represented on the giant size map published by Schley for the SCAG, an estimated distance using the scale to the same area is around 120 miles, almost double the distance!
Just how big is the coast supposed to be? Checking with the 3.5 Campaign Setting map, the general distance seems way more in line with the 65 mile distance than the 120 mi of the recent published map. I realize it's really hard to estimate distances given terrain and winding roads, etc., but really I'm looking for a general standard since travel can sometimes be important. Is there an official distance table somewhere I'm missing?
Thanks for any help!
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Edited by - shimmertook on 04 Dec 2015 21:56:44
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combatmedic
Senior Scribe
USA
428 Posts |
Posted - 04 Dec 2015 : 22:06:15
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| Was there not a pretty big shrinkage of Faerun in 3E? |
YMMV= Your Mileage May Vary. I'm putting it here so I don't have to type it in every other post. :) |
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Faraer
Great Reader
3308 Posts |
Posted - 04 Dec 2015 : 23:00:26
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| On the FR5 The Savage Frontier map it's about 4¼" = 127.5 miles -- the SCAG geography looks to be based on the original published maps. City of Splendors (Campaign Guide p. 103) gives travel times from Leilon to Neverwinter of 6 days for a caravan, 7½ days for a party on foot. |
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shimmertook
Acolyte
USA
7 Posts |
Posted - 04 Dec 2015 : 23:10:42
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| Thanks for the info Faraer! So did the realms actually shrink at some point along the way? If so what was the reason? |
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Artemas Entreri
Great Reader
USA
3131 Posts |
Posted - 04 Dec 2015 : 23:19:51
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| I didn't notice that particular issue, but Realms maps have been plagued by inconsistency since the beginning. |
Some people have a way with words, and other people...oh, uh, not have way. -Steve Martin
Amazon "KindleUnlimited" Free Trial: http://amzn.to/2AJ4yD2
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xaeyruudh
Master of Realmslore
USA
1853 Posts |
Posted - 05 Dec 2015 : 00:23:38
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quote:
Originally posted by shimmertook
Thanks for the info Faraer! So did the realms actually shrink at some point along the way? If so what was the reason?
Yes, the map was dramatically changed for 3e. The official reason given was to condense the portion of Faerun they were showing us, from 2 poster maps down to 1. To do that, they literally cut up the map, removed a bunch of pieces, and taped it back together again. 4e maps were based on 3e. Now, in 5e I think we're returning to the original maps.
The result is two completely different sets of maps for the Realms. Every DM will choose either the 1e/2e/5e maps or the 3e/4e maps... the other one can be "art" but it's useless for judging position and distance.
My effort to minimize my critique (in this particular post) of the decision to warp the map for 3e should not be construed as approval.  |
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Cards77
Senior Scribe
USA
745 Posts |
Posted - 06 Dec 2015 : 22:33:27
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| There are extensive threads on this topic debating the various map changes ad naseum if I'm not mistaken. Do a quick search and you will learn much. In essense though Xaey is correct. In 3rd ed, everything was shrunken down, and many areas/place were completely removed all together. The 3rd ed maps are pretty much useless. The Mike Shlay maps are good for 5e, but for anything else you really need to get Markustay's maps or the maps made by "the other Mike". I can't remember his username. Search for my posts and you'll get the down low on the maps saga. I just had a tablecloth and a canvas print made so I just went through like every map ever produced for the Realms. |
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combatmedic
Senior Scribe
USA
428 Posts |
Posted - 06 Dec 2015 : 23:21:36
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Being an Old Gray Box fan, I can only applaud a return to Big Faerun maps.
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YMMV= Your Mileage May Vary. I'm putting it here so I don't have to type it in every other post. :) |
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froglegg
Learned Scribe
317 Posts |
Posted - 07 Dec 2015 : 01:32:14
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quote:
Originally posted by combatmedic
Being an Old Gray Box fan, I can only applaud a return to Big Faerun maps.
HERE,HERE!
John |
Long live Alias and Dragonbait! Kate Novak and Jeff Grubb the Realms need you more then ever!
On my word as a sage nothing within these pages is false, but not all of it may prove to be true. - Elminster of Shadowdale
The Old Grey Box gets better with age! |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 07 Dec 2015 : 03:16:24
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quote:
Originally posted by Cards77
There are extensive threads on this topic debating the various map changes ad naseum if I'm not mistaken.
To be fair, most of those debates were more on the topic of edition changes and their value, and not as much on the maps themselves. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen!  |
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The Masked Mage
Great Reader
USA
2420 Posts |
Posted - 09 Dec 2015 : 09:35:48
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| Just think of it as early era cartography. In many of the only maps of the Americas scale is completely out of proportion and some parts just seem to be missing. No google earth over the forgotten realms, so its all a cartographer's interpretation of the world. |
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Cards77
Senior Scribe
USA
745 Posts |
Posted - 11 Dec 2015 : 16:09:20
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quote:
Originally posted by The Masked Mage
Just think of it as early era cartography. In many of the only maps of the Americas scale is completely out of proportion and some parts just seem to be missing. No google earth over the forgotten realms, so its all a cartographer's interpretation of the world.
Which makes sense for the FR Atlas hand drawn world map. But everything else should be consistent, with the game travel rules if nothing else. |
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Artemas Entreri
Great Reader
USA
3131 Posts |
Posted - 11 Dec 2015 : 16:29:48
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| I love the FR Atlas. Drool. |
Some people have a way with words, and other people...oh, uh, not have way. -Steve Martin
Amazon "KindleUnlimited" Free Trial: http://amzn.to/2AJ4yD2
Try Audible and Get 2 Free Audio Books! https://amzn.to/2IgBede |
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shimmertook
Acolyte
USA
7 Posts |
Posted - 17 Dec 2015 : 02:44:53
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Thanks for the input everyone.
So I also happened to read in the SCAG, a book for better or for worse I am interested in according to, on pg 18 that the world began to convulse and change, whole chasms vanished (Neverwinter?), and miles were added to the lands. (Hope this is okay to cut/paste this one sentence, let me know if not)
"Rumors spread of chasms caused by the
Spellplague suddenly vanishing, and stories circulated
of known destinations being farth er away from one
another, as if the world had quietly added miles of wilderness
to the distance between them."
Do you think this is a "quiet" way of proposing that the lands of Faerūn are back, or magically transforming back to their original sizes? Ideas? |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 17 Dec 2015 : 04:11:38
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quote:
Originally posted by shimmertook
Thanks for the input everyone.
So I also happened to read in the SCAG, a book for better or for worse I am interested in according to, on pg 18 that the world began to convulse and change, whole chasms vanished (Neverwinter?), and miles were added to the lands. (Hope this is okay to cut/paste this one sentence, let me know if not)
"Rumors spread of chasms caused by the
Spellplague suddenly vanishing, and stories circulated
of known destinations being farth er away from one
another, as if the world had quietly added miles of wilderness
to the distance between them."
Do you think this is a "quiet" way of proposing that the lands of Faerūn are back, or magically transforming back to their original sizes? Ideas?
Pretty much, yeah. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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Cards77
Senior Scribe
USA
745 Posts |
Posted - 17 Dec 2015 : 15:03:02
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quote:
Originally posted by shimmertook
Thanks for the input everyone.
So I also happened to read in the SCAG, a book for better or for worse I am interested in according to, on pg 18 that the world began to convulse and change, whole chasms vanished (Neverwinter?), and miles were added to the lands. (Hope this is okay to cut/paste this one sentence, let me know if not)
"Rumors spread of chasms caused by the
Spellplague suddenly vanishing, and stories circulated
of known destinations being farth er away from one
another, as if the world had quietly added miles of wilderness
to the distance between them."
Do you think this is a "quiet" way of proposing that the lands of Faerūn are back, or magically transforming back to their original sizes? Ideas?
Hand waving makes me ill  |
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Mapolq
Senior Scribe
Brazil
466 Posts |
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shimmertook
Acolyte
USA
7 Posts |
Posted - 18 Dec 2015 : 22:20:30
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| I mean, I'm of the opinion that you can either hand waive it like they did, or you can take their modest mentioning of a land in turmoil and integrate it into your game. Lands that have "quietly added miles of wilderness to the distance between them" will affect EVERYTHING and EVERYONE in Faerūn
but then again, so do events like the gods walking the earth and entire countries transforming into deserts, etc. I am hoping to make lemonade out of this process, I just wanted to make sure I was seeing/reading the same thing everyone else was. |
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Faraer
Great Reader
3308 Posts |
Posted - 21 Dec 2015 : 03:16:49
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quote:
Originally posted by Cards77
Which makes sense for the FR Atlas hand drawn world map. But everything else should be consistent, with the game travel rules if nothing else.
The intent -- Ed's always, the company's usually at least -- was that *all* Realmslore is unreliably mediated through Elminster and other sources, whether or not a given work made this explicit. When the 2001 map appeared, there was no suggestion of an in-Realms change, and while some interpreted it as a retcon, to me it was obviously just a dodgy our-world map, perhaps reflecting a dodgy Faerūnian map. Likewise, this time it would have been far more believable to make a reference to previous eccentric cartography than to ask us to believe in geographical changes. |
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xaeyruudh
Master of Realmslore
USA
1853 Posts |
Posted - 21 Dec 2015 : 09:07:59
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quote:
Originally posted by Faraer
the company's usually at least
Methinks thou dost give them too much credit, but tis just a cynical personal opinion I brood over.
quote:
Originally posted by Faraer
Likewise, this time it would have been far more believable to make a reference to previous eccentric cartography than to ask us to believe in geographical changes.
Excellent point. Ultimately, I'm just glad that the 3e changes will be left behind and space for monster habitats has been restored. It would have been nice for lessons to be learned and the 4th wall to be left intact for once, but for me fixing the problem is more important than doing it seamlessly. I much prefer a good change with a crappy explanation, instead of a passable story dressing up unacceptable changes.
It's very nice to finally have an updated map, and Mike Schley's work kinda makes it worth the wait.
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Cards77
Senior Scribe
USA
745 Posts |
Posted - 24 Dec 2015 : 01:51:16
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| The original, original intent IIRC was to leave plenty of space for every DM to drop in entire kingdoms should they so desire. Shrinking everything and flat out retconning entire features out of the canon wasn't the way to handle that. Easy for me to say. However, I didn't see a need for the change in the first place. So what if it takes a long time to travel places? The world is massive! There are whole areas specifically NOT covered in canon so that we can make it our own without "removing" stuff. |
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Returnip
Learned Scribe
221 Posts |
Posted - 19 Dec 2020 : 23:18:05
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Content changes aside, how big do you want your maps? On the third edition map of Faerūn it takes almost four days to travel from Nashkel to Beregost. The distance is almost 120 miles. That distance between two towns does not make any sense, and a larger distance than that makes even less sense.
Another interesting inconsistency is that the Faerūn map shows the distance between Arabel and the crossroads north of Espar to be almost 120 miles as well, while on the map on page 117 of the Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting it's shown to be about 50 miles.
To me that looks more like someone messed up the numbers rather than deliberate changes.
Where can I get Markustay's map? Is it available here on the keep?
EDIT: Never mind. I found Markustay's maps.
EDIT 2: If someone here has access to the 2nd edition map I'd be very interested in what it shows the distance to be between Nashkel and Beregost for comparison. |
On the other hand you have different fingers. |
Edited by - Returnip on 19 Dec 2020 23:34:33 |
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TheIriaeban
Master of Realmslore
USA
1289 Posts |
Posted - 20 Dec 2020 : 01:35:02
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| The FRIA is based on 2e maps and it has the distance at 120 miles. |
"Iriaebor is a fine city. So what if you can have violence between merchant groups break out at any moment. Not every city can offer dinner AND a show."
My FR writeups - http://www.mediafire.com/folder/um3liz6tqsf5n/Documents
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The Arcanamach
Master of Realmslore
1842 Posts |
Posted - 20 Dec 2020 : 02:46:18
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| Returnip, bear in mind that along that 120 mile stretch will be numerous villages and farmsteads. So 120 miles between towns isn't so far fetched. The maps just can't show every little hamlet along the way. Although there is a splendid map of Thay showing all the little villages that exist there (though it was fan made). |
I have a dream that one day, all game worlds will exist as one. |
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cpthero2
Great Reader
USA
2285 Posts |
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Returnip
Learned Scribe
221 Posts |
Posted - 20 Dec 2020 : 13:21:17
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quote:
Originally posted by TheIriaeban
The FRIA is based on 2e maps and it has the distance at 120 miles.
So the same as 3rd edition then.
quote:
Originally posted by The Arcanamach
Returnip, bear in mind that along that 120 mile stretch will be numerous villages and farmsteads. So 120 miles between towns isn't so far fetched. The maps just can't show every little hamlet along the way.
That's what I would assume, but these are mentioned in text throughout the Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting in many places while not detailed as separate entries. Maybe I should assume more then.
quote:
Originally posted by cpthero2
https://vignette.wikia.nocookie.net/steampulp/images/c/c4/Thay-map.jpg/revision/latest?cb=20160423171251
That is a beautiful map. |
On the other hand you have different fingers. |
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The Arcanamach
Master of Realmslore
1842 Posts |
Posted - 20 Dec 2020 : 13:52:43
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| I believe that was one of handsome robs maps (someone please correct me if I'm wrong, proper credit should be given). I'd be willing to pay someone to do a map with that level of detail throughout the Realms. I also prefer that style over Schley's work (just my opinion). |
I have a dream that one day, all game worlds will exist as one. |
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cpthero2
Great Reader
USA
2285 Posts |
Posted - 20 Dec 2020 : 22:33:55
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Learned Scribe Returnip,
I know. It is truly incredible. Seeing a map of Thay like that, filled in completely with all of those villages, etc., is beyond awesomesauce! :)
Best regards,
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Higher Atlar
Spirit Soaring |
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Azar
Master of Realmslore
1286 Posts |
Posted - 20 Dec 2020 : 23:34:55
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quote:
Originally posted by Returnip
Content changes aside, how big do you want your maps?
When it comes to fantasy worlds, the bigger...the better. |
Stand with anybody that stands right. Stand with him while he is right and part with him when he goes wrong.
Earth names in the Realms are more common than you may think. |
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cpthero2
Great Reader
USA
2285 Posts |
Posted - 20 Dec 2020 : 23:43:42
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Learned Scribe Azar,
I agree with that in the sense of looking at it like I do the Realms. I'd love to see Osse for example be fully developed! :)
Best regards,
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Higher Atlar
Spirit Soaring |
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Returnip
Learned Scribe
221 Posts |
Posted - 21 Dec 2020 : 00:05:46
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quote:
Originally posted by The Arcanamach
I believe that was one of handsome robs maps (someone please correct me if I'm wrong, proper credit should be given). I'd be willing to pay someone to do a map with that level of detail throughout the Realms. I also prefer that style over Schley's work (just my opinion).
Tell the creator to start a gofundme or patreon or something. Then give me the link to it! |
On the other hand you have different fingers. |
Edited by - Returnip on 21 Dec 2020 00:06:11 |
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Inconsistent Maps
