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shimmertook
Acolyte

USA
7 Posts

Posted - 04 Dec 2015 :  21:56:08  Show Profile Send shimmertook a Private Message  Reply with Quote  Delete Topic
Has anyone noticed that the Mike Schley map of northern Faerūn from the new Sword Coast Adventurer's Guide shows a scale that is inconsistent with the map from the Lost Mine of Phandelver?

Granted, there is no scale on the map published in the actual book. Since I'm knee deep in a Sword Coast adventure right now I thought I might purchase the full size map from his website, which does include a scale.

In the LMoP adventure on the Sword Coast map, Neverwinter to Leilon is about 13 hexes, 65 miles. Though Leilon isn't represented on the giant size map published by Schley for the SCAG, an estimated distance using the scale to the same area is around 120 miles, almost double the distance!

Just how big is the coast supposed to be? Checking with the 3.5 Campaign Setting map, the general distance seems way more in line with the 65 mile distance than the 120 mi of the recent published map. I realize it's really hard to estimate distances given terrain and winding roads, etc., but really I'm looking for a general standard since travel can sometimes be important. Is there an official distance table somewhere I'm missing?

Thanks for any help!

Edited by - shimmertook on 04 Dec 2015 21:56:44

combatmedic
Senior Scribe

USA
428 Posts

Posted - 04 Dec 2015 :  22:06:15  Show Profile Send combatmedic a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Was there not a pretty big shrinkage of Faerun in 3E?

YMMV= Your Mileage May Vary. I'm putting it here so I don't have to type it in every other post. :)
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Faraer
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3308 Posts

Posted - 04 Dec 2015 :  23:00:26  Show Profile  Visit Faraer's Homepage Send Faraer a Private Message  Reply with Quote
On the FR5 The Savage Frontier map it's about 4¼" = 127.5 miles -- the SCAG geography looks to be based on the original published maps. City of Splendors (Campaign Guide p. 103) gives travel times from Leilon to Neverwinter of 6 days for a caravan, 7½ days for a party on foot.
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shimmertook
Acolyte

USA
7 Posts

Posted - 04 Dec 2015 :  23:10:42  Show Profile Send shimmertook a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Thanks for the info Faraer! So did the realms actually shrink at some point along the way? If so what was the reason?
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Artemas Entreri
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USA
3091 Posts

Posted - 04 Dec 2015 :  23:19:51  Show Profile Send Artemas Entreri a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I didn't notice that particular issue, but Realms maps have been plagued by inconsistency since the beginning.

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xaeyruudh
Master of Realmslore

USA
1852 Posts

Posted - 05 Dec 2015 :  00:23:38  Show Profile  Visit xaeyruudh's Homepage Send xaeyruudh a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by shimmertook

Thanks for the info Faraer! So did the realms actually shrink at some point along the way? If so what was the reason?



Yes, the map was dramatically changed for 3e. The official reason given was to condense the portion of Faerun they were showing us, from 2 poster maps down to 1. To do that, they literally cut up the map, removed a bunch of pieces, and taped it back together again. 4e maps were based on 3e. Now, in 5e I think we're returning to the original maps.

The result is two completely different sets of maps for the Realms. Every DM will choose either the 1e/2e/5e maps or the 3e/4e maps... the other one can be "art" but it's useless for judging position and distance.

My effort to minimize my critique (in this particular post) of the decision to warp the map for 3e should not be construed as approval.
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Cards77
Senior Scribe

USA
723 Posts

Posted - 06 Dec 2015 :  22:33:27  Show Profile Send Cards77 a Private Message  Reply with Quote
There are extensive threads on this topic debating the various map changes ad naseum if I'm not mistaken. Do a quick search and you will learn much. In essense though Xaey is correct. In 3rd ed, everything was shrunken down, and many areas/place were completely removed all together. The 3rd ed maps are pretty much useless. The Mike Shlay maps are good for 5e, but for anything else you really need to get Markustay's maps or the maps made by "the other Mike". I can't remember his username. Search for my posts and you'll get the down low on the maps saga. I just had a tablecloth and a canvas print made so I just went through like every map ever produced for the Realms.
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combatmedic
Senior Scribe

USA
428 Posts

Posted - 06 Dec 2015 :  23:21:36  Show Profile Send combatmedic a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Being an Old Gray Box fan, I can only applaud a return to Big Faerun maps.

YMMV= Your Mileage May Vary. I'm putting it here so I don't have to type it in every other post. :)
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froglegg
Learned Scribe

317 Posts

Posted - 07 Dec 2015 :  01:32:14  Show Profile Send froglegg a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by combatmedic

Being an Old Gray Box fan, I can only applaud a return to Big Faerun maps.



HERE,HERE!




John

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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
34467 Posts

Posted - 07 Dec 2015 :  03:16:24  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Cards77

There are extensive threads on this topic debating the various map changes ad naseum if I'm not mistaken.


To be fair, most of those debates were more on the topic of edition changes and their value, and not as much on the maps themselves.

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The Masked Mage
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USA
2224 Posts

Posted - 09 Dec 2015 :  09:35:48  Show Profile Send The Masked Mage a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Just think of it as early era cartography. In many of the only maps of the Americas scale is completely out of proportion and some parts just seem to be missing. No google earth over the forgotten realms, so its all a cartographer's interpretation of the world.
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Cards77
Senior Scribe

USA
723 Posts

Posted - 11 Dec 2015 :  16:09:20  Show Profile Send Cards77 a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by The Masked Mage

Just think of it as early era cartography. In many of the only maps of the Americas scale is completely out of proportion and some parts just seem to be missing. No google earth over the forgotten realms, so its all a cartographer's interpretation of the world.



Which makes sense for the FR Atlas hand drawn world map. But everything else should be consistent, with the game travel rules if nothing else.
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Artemas Entreri
Great Reader

USA
3091 Posts

Posted - 11 Dec 2015 :  16:29:48  Show Profile Send Artemas Entreri a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I love the FR Atlas. Drool.

Some people have a way with words, and other people...oh, uh, not have way. -Steve Martin

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shimmertook
Acolyte

USA
7 Posts

Posted - 17 Dec 2015 :  02:44:53  Show Profile Send shimmertook a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Thanks for the input everyone.

So I also happened to read in the SCAG, a book for better or for worse I am interested in according to, on pg 18 that the world began to convulse and change, whole chasms vanished (Neverwinter?), and miles were added to the lands. (Hope this is okay to cut/paste this one sentence, let me know if not)

"Rumors spread of chasms caused by the
Spellplague suddenly vanishing, and stories circulated
of known destinations being farth er away from one
another, as if the world had quietly added miles of wilderness
to the distance between them."

Do you think this is a "quiet" way of proposing that the lands of Faerūn are back, or magically transforming back to their original sizes? Ideas?
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
34467 Posts

Posted - 17 Dec 2015 :  04:11:38  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by shimmertook

Thanks for the input everyone.

So I also happened to read in the SCAG, a book for better or for worse I am interested in according to, on pg 18 that the world began to convulse and change, whole chasms vanished (Neverwinter?), and miles were added to the lands. (Hope this is okay to cut/paste this one sentence, let me know if not)

"Rumors spread of chasms caused by the
Spellplague suddenly vanishing, and stories circulated
of known destinations being farth er away from one
another, as if the world had quietly added miles of wilderness
to the distance between them."

Do you think this is a "quiet" way of proposing that the lands of Faerūn are back, or magically transforming back to their original sizes? Ideas?



Pretty much, yeah.

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Cards77
Senior Scribe

USA
723 Posts

Posted - 17 Dec 2015 :  15:03:02  Show Profile Send Cards77 a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by shimmertook

Thanks for the input everyone.

So I also happened to read in the SCAG, a book for better or for worse I am interested in according to, on pg 18 that the world began to convulse and change, whole chasms vanished (Neverwinter?), and miles were added to the lands. (Hope this is okay to cut/paste this one sentence, let me know if not)

"Rumors spread of chasms caused by the
Spellplague suddenly vanishing, and stories circulated
of known destinations being farth er away from one
another, as if the world had quietly added miles of wilderness
to the distance between them."

Do you think this is a "quiet" way of proposing that the lands of Faerūn are back, or magically transforming back to their original sizes? Ideas?

Hand waving makes me ill
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Mapolq
Senior Scribe

Brazil
466 Posts

Posted - 18 Dec 2015 :  22:13:54  Show Profile Send Mapolq a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Well, it was pretty much a case of choosing between:

1) Not changing anything;

2) Changing it and saying nothing;

3) Changing it and making up something very, very ridiculous to explain it;

4) Changing it and handwaving.

I can't envy the people who make these choices.

Never sleep under the jackfruit tree.

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shimmertook
Acolyte

USA
7 Posts

Posted - 18 Dec 2015 :  22:20:30  Show Profile Send shimmertook a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I mean, I'm of the opinion that you can either hand waive it like they did, or you can take their modest mentioning of a land in turmoil and integrate it into your game. Lands that have "quietly added miles of wilderness to the distance between them" will affect EVERYTHING and EVERYONE in Faerūn…but then again, so do events like the gods walking the earth and entire countries transforming into deserts, etc. I am hoping to make lemonade out of this process, I just wanted to make sure I was seeing/reading the same thing everyone else was.
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Faraer
Great Reader

3308 Posts

Posted - 21 Dec 2015 :  03:16:49  Show Profile  Visit Faraer's Homepage Send Faraer a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Cards77
Which makes sense for the FR Atlas hand drawn world map. But everything else should be consistent, with the game travel rules if nothing else.
The intent -- Ed's always, the company's usually at least -- was that *all* Realmslore is unreliably mediated through Elminster and other sources, whether or not a given work made this explicit. When the 2001 map appeared, there was no suggestion of an in-Realms change, and while some interpreted it as a retcon, to me it was obviously just a dodgy our-world map, perhaps reflecting a dodgy Faerūnian map. Likewise, this time it would have been far more believable to make a reference to previous eccentric cartography than to ask us to believe in geographical changes.
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xaeyruudh
Master of Realmslore

USA
1852 Posts

Posted - 21 Dec 2015 :  09:07:59  Show Profile  Visit xaeyruudh's Homepage Send xaeyruudh a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Faraer

the company's usually at least


Methinks thou dost give them too much credit, but tis just a cynical personal opinion I brood over.

quote:
Originally posted by Faraer

Likewise, this time it would have been far more believable to make a reference to previous eccentric cartography than to ask us to believe in geographical changes.


Excellent point. Ultimately, I'm just glad that the 3e changes will be left behind and space for monster habitats has been restored. It would have been nice for lessons to be learned and the 4th wall to be left intact for once, but for me fixing the problem is more important than doing it seamlessly. I much prefer a good change with a crappy explanation, instead of a passable story dressing up unacceptable changes.

It's very nice to finally have an updated map, and Mike Schley's work kinda makes it worth the wait.
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Cards77
Senior Scribe

USA
723 Posts

Posted - 24 Dec 2015 :  01:51:16  Show Profile Send Cards77 a Private Message  Reply with Quote
The original, original intent IIRC was to leave plenty of space for every DM to drop in entire kingdoms should they so desire. Shrinking everything and flat out retconning entire features out of the canon wasn't the way to handle that. Easy for me to say. However, I didn't see a need for the change in the first place. So what if it takes a long time to travel places? The world is massive! There are whole areas specifically NOT covered in canon so that we can make it our own without "removing" stuff.
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Returnip
Learned Scribe

204 Posts

Posted - 19 Dec 2020 :  23:18:05  Show Profile Send Returnip a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Content changes aside, how big do you want your maps? On the third edition map of Faerūn it takes almost four days to travel from Nashkel to Beregost. The distance is almost 120 miles. That distance between two towns does not make any sense, and a larger distance than that makes even less sense.

Another interesting inconsistency is that the Faerūn map shows the distance between Arabel and the crossroads north of Espar to be almost 120 miles as well, while on the map on page 117 of the Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting it's shown to be about 50 miles.

To me that looks more like someone messed up the numbers rather than deliberate changes.

Where can I get Markustay's map? Is it available here on the keep?

EDIT: Never mind. I found Markustay's maps.

EDIT 2: If someone here has access to the 2nd edition map I'd be very interested in what it shows the distance to be between Nashkel and Beregost for comparison.

On the other hand you have different fingers.

Edited by - Returnip on 19 Dec 2020 23:34:33
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TheIriaeban
Senior Scribe

USA
562 Posts

Posted - 20 Dec 2020 :  01:35:02  Show Profile Send TheIriaeban a Private Message  Reply with Quote
The FRIA is based on 2e maps and it has the distance at 120 miles.

"Iriaebor is a fine city. So what if you can have violence between merchant groups break out at any moment. Not every city can offer dinner AND a show."

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The Arcanamach
Master of Realmslore

1750 Posts

Posted - 20 Dec 2020 :  02:46:18  Show Profile Send The Arcanamach a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Returnip, bear in mind that along that 120 mile stretch will be numerous villages and farmsteads. So 120 miles between towns isn't so far fetched. The maps just can't show every little hamlet along the way. Although there is a splendid map of Thay showing all the little villages that exist there (though it was fan made).

I have a dream that one day, all game worlds will exist as one.
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cpthero2
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USA
2249 Posts

Posted - 20 Dec 2020 :  04:52:00  Show Profile  Visit cpthero2's Homepage Send cpthero2 a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Master Arcanamach,

Wow, you are so right about that Thay map. When I saw that for the first time, my eyes about popped out of my head! :)

https://vignette.wikia.nocookie.net/steampulp/images/c/c4/Thay-map.jpg/revision/latest?cb=20160423171251

Best regards,





Higher Atlar
Spirit Soaring
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Returnip
Learned Scribe

204 Posts

Posted - 20 Dec 2020 :  13:21:17  Show Profile Send Returnip a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by TheIriaeban

The FRIA is based on 2e maps and it has the distance at 120 miles.



So the same as 3rd edition then.

quote:
Originally posted by The Arcanamach

Returnip, bear in mind that along that 120 mile stretch will be numerous villages and farmsteads. So 120 miles between towns isn't so far fetched. The maps just can't show every little hamlet along the way.


That's what I would assume, but these are mentioned in text throughout the Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting in many places while not detailed as separate entries. Maybe I should assume more then.

quote:
Originally posted by cpthero2

https://vignette.wikia.nocookie.net/steampulp/images/c/c4/Thay-map.jpg/revision/latest?cb=20160423171251



That is a beautiful map.

On the other hand you have different fingers.
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