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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6353 Posts |
 Posted - 30 Oct 2015 : 21:02:31
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Been looking over various sourcebooks again and I've decided I really dislike the whole religious order thing for the various religions.
Why should a military arm of a church exist that takes only paladins (and occasionally rangers). Why should a monastic order exist that only takes monks. Yes those classes can multiclass into other classes but the whole thing seems very confining to me.
So as always I'd like to do a reinvention of the monastic orders (and the crusading orders) to make them more like real world monastic orders which are about preserving something (usually knowledge but not necessarily so).
So the monastic orders would primarily be made up of what would approximate in class terms as an expert, making them mostly sages that know a lot about their chosen field. Like all organisations you would have a few hard nuts that would probably be fighter types, the occasional unsavoury character that would be a rogue, and maybe even a wizard or two. What they all have in common is dedication to a particular ideal or religion.
So the question is what ideal.
Broken Ones: Dedicated to healing the sick and caring for the wounded and dying. They basically run hospitals for the poor (and anyone else).
Dark Moon: Dedicated to the preservation of secrets. Basically run banks for objects that people would rather remain safe but private, maybe they even keep knowledge secret by extracting it out of people's heads (they can put it back later). Affiliation with Shar should of course be unknown, and when people die the things belong to the monks (and they sometimes kill people to keep the items).
Hin Fist: No idea what to do with these. Maybe an order dedicated to keeping track of the forgotten folk (halflings and gnomes) as they spread throughout the realms. It keeps track of births, deaths, marriages, and businesses, in case family wish to find their relatives. Also acts like a bit of a cooperative for the forgotten folk (lending money etc)
Long Death: Dedicated to learning all about death and ensuring an orderly and timely death. They run hospices (sometimes in competition to the Broken Ones hospitals). Depending upon the patron of each hospice depends on how nice they are about ensuring people die when they are supposed to. Claim to know when a person should die at their appointed time, but most believe they are just making it up for their own gain. Really, really hate undead.
Old Order: Not sure about these. There isn't much on them other than they follow the philosophy of a god whose identity isn't important and are widely spread throughout faerun. Not much to work with.
Shining Hand: Dedicated to preserving wizard knowledge. Not just the recording of spells but everything about wizardry. They keep everything recorded in complex ciphers so that people cannot just raid them for spells. Those that know the ciphers are also mute (tongues removed perhaps) so they cannot tell the code's secrets. Will provide certain spells for a fee.
Sun Soul: Evolved from the Brotherhood of the Sun (monastic order of Amaunator) which just became dedicated to preserving the people of Netheril. It spread with the Chondathans to most of Faerun.
Yellow Rose: Dedicated to preserving peace and diplomacy (and as a byproduct of that heraldry, births, and deaths).
Other monastic orders are dedicated to the ideals of their faith in much the same way as monastic orders in real life. They preserve religious traditions, texts, etc, in isolated monasteries away from urban centres where they can better serve the deity in peace and solitude. At the same time they provide a service to those in more rural areas. If the deity has an organised church then they may be a part of it (or a part of a part of it if the church is actually multiple conflicting churches like Bane's).
If the deity does not have an organised church, then they are entirely separate in the same way that each cult, shrine, or temple is separate, and they may help or hinder their professed fellow worshippers as the head of the monastery desires.
I'm hoping the monastic orders in this way will bring a bit more diversity to the various religions (which are a bit stale and one dimensional apart from the heresies).
Anyone have any ideas for what the Old Order could be? I don't really want it to be religious based, I think the ones listed above should really be religion independent (or not exclusive to one religion) that way anyone can join them (any alignment, any class) as long as they follow the rules.
The paladin orders I'm going to change into crusading orders filled with "Holy Warriors" rather than just paladins. So basically anyone can be a "Holy Warrior", its just a title (although may bestow some extraordinary abilities). The crucial bit is that members of this order are willing to fight enemies of the religion wherever they may be, and if necessary die to destroy those enemies.
That leaves the regular churches to be filled with "priests" who are dedicated to spreading the word of the religion, monasteries dedicated to preserving that religion, and crusading orders dedicated to enforcing that religion.
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 30 Oct 2015 : 22:37:07
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So you're wanting holy warriors with no holy abilities (and thus no divine eye on them), and monk organizations of non-monks?  |
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4686 Posts |
Posted - 30 Oct 2015 : 23:32:44
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Well there are things called monastic orders of people that retreat from the world. Candlekeep might be such an order in which scribes seek and preserve lore and as far as I know serve no deity.
In someways I guess I need to know what dazzlerdal means by making " like real world monastic orders" |
"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6353 Posts |
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AuldDragon
Senior Scribe
USA
551 Posts |
Posted - 31 Oct 2015 : 10:14:34
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quote:
Originally posted by dazzlerdal
Well I'm pretty sure I've heard of Franciscan monks and Dominican monks so I think there are real world orders but I cannot profess to know how they work. What I do know is that in England in particular in the dark ages, when civilisation collapsed after the fall of Rome, the monasteries were the places where knowledge was stored and maintained.
They were the few who knew how to read and write, they transcribed books to keep them safe, etc.
I imagine the monasteries working like that. They are the repositories of knowledge and ideals as well as in some cases being a church's representative to the common folk in rural areas (where they are almost always located).
Monasticism is more about living away from worldly influences in order to be closer to your faith. It's like hermitage, but organized and communal (despite the origin of the word). While scholarly pursuits were a strong aspect of it, it was all about using that to better understand one's faith (much monastic scholardom was of a theological nature, trying to better understand, comment on, and consider holy scripture, etc.). Additional knowledge preservation was to an extent a side effect, and medieval monks destroyed a lot of knowledge that they didn't like.
I agree that there's no reason a monastic order can't contain fighters, clerics, or unclassed individuals, though, just as a temple hierarchy could contain a high priest who was a fighter (say, for Tempus's hierarchy), as temple politics should not really be tied to classes. The vast majority would still be of the appropriate classes, though, since they align better. On the other hand, I would say there is more to being a paladin than just being a holy warrior (that is the cleric, the fighter/cleric for non-humans, crusaders in 2e, or even just a devout fighter). An order of paladins would only take paladins because only paladins can meet the strict requirements. There may very well be other military orders with less stringent requirements (which could also have paladins, but also others). Rangers are in a similar situation. They're much more than just woodsmen or wilderness warriors.
Also, the "Dark Ages" are now called the Early Medieval period by scholars because it really wasn't the terrible and ignorant time it is portrayed as; it was just a time of upheavals. The Roman Empire in much of the west didn't really fall so much as withdraw and leave the locals to self-govern (Rome didn't control all that much directly at the classic end date for the empire, and of course the Eastern Empire went on strongly for another thousand years or so). Much of the area that was part of the Western Roman Empire continued to see itself as Roman for centuries (the Visigothic conquerors in Iberia in particular pretty much whole-heartedly adopted a Roman way of life, which is why the languages there are descended from Latin rather than old Germanic tongues). The Celtic peoples in southern England and Wales saw themselves as successors of the Romans as well, and most of the Welsh kings created genealogies that made them descendants of mythical Roman generals. :)
Jeff |
My 2nd Edition blog: http://blog.aulddragon.com/
My streamed AD&D Spelljamer sessions: https://www.youtube.com/user/aulddragon/playlists?flow=grid&shelf_id=18&view=50
"That sums it up in a nutshell, AuldDragon. You make a more convincing argument. But he's right and you're not." |
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6353 Posts |
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Wrigley
Senior Scribe
Czech Republic
605 Posts |
Posted - 31 Oct 2015 : 19:29:51
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I have done similar approach as Dazzlerdal. Paladin class is only available to outsider-tainted mortals good or evil (variants for evil/chaotic/...) and monk class is only in Kara-Tur. So in my realms Orders are religious branches of specific diety or believe and monasteries are locales they use. Any faitful can join temple or monastery they like and those places are usualy led by clergy/druids but there are examples of leading figure without any cleric class levels (more like bureaucrats) especialy in higher positions that are more about administration and politics. Also most of the templars (religious fighters and guardians) are of fighter class, possibly with some boons at higher levels (potions, charms, magic items, permanent spells or imbued abilities). Actual clerics are needed mostly in middle stations to use their magic most usefuly. So you will be usualy greeted in local church by one of the devout brothers/sisters (expert/commoner) who will try to help you or delegate you to specific individual for your need. In good churches there will be some healer (skill Heal) but also at least one cleric that can help you with magic (usualy have prepared most of remedius spells and spontaneously cast healing if needed). Also there will be a stash of sigle use items (potions, oils) that can be used in larger operations or sold to adventurers.
One specific example of monastic order is Monastery of Yellow Rose (or Citadel of White Worm), Ilmaterian order focusing on demon slaying. They are devouted to cleaning Implitur and other Bloodlands from demonic taint and to watch over it. They use special rituals to "taint" themselves with celestial blood and thus become paladins. They support current leadership in Implitur and Damara by sending their paladins to fight demons so others do not have to suffer.
Monks of Long death are actual prestige class so this could be example of other orders there are.
Most important for any order is its continual support by their chosen diety or patron. There could be some religious struggle with rest of the faitful but unless they are considered heretics they usualy cooperate and help each other. |
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AuldDragon
Senior Scribe
USA
551 Posts |
Posted - 02 Nov 2015 : 06:43:59
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Similar deities could share an order (or more accurately, an order could be dedicated to multiple deities), such as an order of paladins dedicated to Helm and Torm. I think most would be dedicated to a specific deity, though, since the different faiths would have different ideals and goals. There's no need for a paladin-equivalent order for other deities, though, as there are other sorts of orders those deities could have, such as an order of sages or assassins. Not every faith has to have every type of order (monks would be out of place for a chaotic god of travelers, for example). The abilities a paladin (or any other class) has wouldn't be the requirements for joining the order, as they're not the requirements for joining the class. They're the benefits. An order of paladins wouldn't be restricted to paladins because they can lay on hands, it would be restricted to them because they hold very strict and very high ideals. If a person's campaign doesn't have enough such individuals to form an order, then it would be understandable to not include such an order, but I don't really see any reason to not have an order of paladins just because they're paladins.
I do agree with you about monks, though; the D&D class is very much drawn from an eastern stereotype that fits poorly with western monasticism, which I prefer for much of the Forgotten Realms and other settings based on western history and mythology. Their benefits and powers don't really match a D&D/magic extrapolation of western monkish stereotypes. Unless you want to make a new class, I'd personally just use clerics. The monkish orders wouldn't be restricted to clerics (or monks), they would just be most common.
That's my opinion at least. :)
Jeff |
My 2nd Edition blog: http://blog.aulddragon.com/
My streamed AD&D Spelljamer sessions: https://www.youtube.com/user/aulddragon/playlists?flow=grid&shelf_id=18&view=50
"That sums it up in a nutshell, AuldDragon. You make a more convincing argument. But he's right and you're not." |
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Wrigley
Senior Scribe
Czech Republic
605 Posts |
Posted - 02 Nov 2015 : 21:55:35
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quote:
Originally posted by AuldDragon
Similar deities could share an order (or more accurately, an order could be dedicated to multiple deities), such as an order of paladins dedicated to Helm and Torm. I think most would be dedicated to a specific deity, though, since the different faiths would have different ideals and goals. There's no need for a paladin-equivalent order for other deities, though, as there are other sorts of orders those deities could have, such as an order of sages or assassins. Not every faith has to have every type of order (monks would be out of place for a chaotic god of travelers, for example). The abilities a paladin (or any other class) has wouldn't be the requirements for joining the order, as they're not the requirements for joining the class. They're the benefits. An order of paladins wouldn't be restricted to paladins because they can lay on hands, it would be restricted to them because they hold very strict and very high ideals. If a person's campaign doesn't have enough such individuals to form an order, then it would be understandable to not include such an order, but I don't really see any reason to not have an order of paladins just because they're paladins.
I do agree with you about monks, though; the D&D class is very much drawn from an eastern stereotype that fits poorly with western monasticism, which I prefer for much of the Forgotten Realms and other settings based on western history and mythology. Their benefits and powers don't really match a D&D/magic extrapolation of western monkish stereotypes. Unless you want to make a new class, I'd personally just use clerics. The monkish orders wouldn't be restricted to clerics (or monks), they would just be most common.
That's my opinion at least. :)
Jeff
For Paladin equivalents I tend to disagree. Standard evil is fast and easy way so why they have only Blackguard (prestige class) as paladin equivalent? I see it as a way of dities to meddle indirectly on Prime regardless of their ethos.
As for those Orders I think of them as that they have a purpose behind the faith in the diety (a specialisation within a dogma if you will). |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11701 Posts |
Posted - 02 Nov 2015 : 23:11:46
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I like the general premise you're seeking. I agree that "monastic" orders shouldn't just be monks, and military orders shouldn't just be paladins. I will say though that I don't see monks of the shining hand having their tongues cut out (they are a an order with an interest to Azuth, and therefore spellcasters more than likely and thus needing tongues for verbal components).
The Sun Soul order is noted as a group devoted to not only Lathander, but also Selune and Sune to a degree. I'd make this a group dedicated to preserving that which is "beautifully bright". They'd focus on bringing light into people's drab lives through making stained glass windows, paintings revolving around light, candles and decorative candle holders, etc.... They may also serve to light a town's torch holders after hours or providing lighted escort services to people returning home in the dark of night.
The order of the hin fist may work a little bit like the "A-team" for halflings with problems brought about by "big folk" who seek to abuse the halflings of the community.
I personally love that take on the Dark Moon. An order whose focus is on "release this information only if X happens to me" would fit Shar well, especially if the information is covered by a spell that obscures the information unless it is placed in the hands of the intended (and thus Dark Moon doesn't know the secret). Of course, unbeknownst to the requester, the Dark Moon followers may deliver the information beforehand to find out the secrets and then erase the memory from the recipient, later blackmailing the original depositor. They may also serve to take away people's grief by erasing their memories of certain things, with the requirement that the person perform a "minor small service" for them in return for the memory loss. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6353 Posts |
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Wrigley
Senior Scribe
Czech Republic
605 Posts |
Posted - 03 Nov 2015 : 19:08:20
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Sun soul for me is about Sun itself not its steward similar with Long Death order. They venerate Sun with daily worship and I like the take on being lanterners in cities.
I also very much like the idea about Dark Moon order. For Hin Fists I am inclined to actualy allow monk class (wandering if they get it from the east or if Githzerai are at play...) |
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Korginard
Learned Scribe
USA
126 Posts |
Posted - 04 Nov 2015 : 19:00:24
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The Monk definitely has oriental origins, so for those orders that are made up of Monks, like the Monastery of the Yellow Rose, I'd like to see how that developed. Damara is far enough east that it's not a problem for me to see a background story where a monk or group of monks traveled across the northern hoard lands and established the teachings there.
I'd also want options for non-monk orders however, and for an order or martial unarmed fighters my choice would be to use the Brawler Hybrid class from Pathfinder. This allows for a combatant that relies on unarmed combat with not so much oriental flavor. The fun part of this would be dreaming up styles of unarmed combat that these orders developed without influence from Kara-Tur.
The Hin-Fist would be a good example to start with. They are a martial order of unarmed combatants. How would halflings develop thier unarmed combat? My thought is that they'd rely on speed, agility, and their small size. The style would involve quick nimble strikes and movement. Their in, they strike, and their out of reach. Lots of dives and tumbles and lots of reliance on those big tough feet of theirs. They would focus on the lower extremities, seeking to trip their taller foes, and then pummel them mercilessly when they hit the ground.
As for other orders, some monastic orders don't need Monks or Brawlers at all. The Monastic types we see in Middle Ages Europe are more suited to be priests. The Cloistered Cleric and Lore Keeper are more appropriate in those situations. They may have some members who are simple fighters dedicated to protecting the others. They could even have a ranger or scout type who watch over the surrounding lands. A secluded location would require those with survival skills to help provide for the folk living there.
It's definitely fun to think outside the box and imagine different ways these monastic or militant orders would work.
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Rymac
Learned Scribe
USA
315 Posts |
Posted - 04 Nov 2015 : 20:09:58
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I seem to recall there was another order of monks in the North or Savage North that was hinted way, way back in FR1 Waterdeep and the North. Wasn't there a monk that was a member of the Company of the Crazed Venturers? Maybe I'm just remembering wrong.
As for does the monk really fit or belong within a European fantasy setting, probably not, but its inclusion in early Dungeons and Dragons is what made it so enigmatic and fantastically eclectic. |
- Ryan |
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6353 Posts |
Posted - 05 Nov 2015 : 20:37:30
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I admit given its location that the monastery of the yellow rose is likely to have more monks than any other monastery in faerun (unless there are a few in Thesk, Thay, Rashemen, etc.
I wouldn't have the monastery of the Yellow Rose started or even have a majority membership of monks. It doesn't really fit with the religion or the goals of the monastery.
The monastery is affiliated with the church of Ilmater which I can kind of see. They seem to be promoting peace through diplomacy and keeping track of alliances, births, deaths, marriages, relations, etc.
Doesn't really fit with the eastern monk goal of self perfection but fits better with the western scholarly monk.
The monk class members would be the members sent out into the world for whatever reason (because of their martial ability) and so might give the impression of it having more monk members than it does.
As for the crazed adventurers and the monk, I had completely forgotten about them. They are based in the citadel of the mists and Iltmul was the master of white dragons, but is now the master of red dragons.
This "order" does indeed sound eastern in flavour because it seems to be dedicated not to scholarly pursuits (unless they are preserving lore about dragons), but instead to self perfection and perhaps trying to attain dragon form.
In fact I'd be tempted to link the order in the citadel of the mists to the Old Order - an order dedicated to no god in particular that espouses a philosophy created by one of the earliest dragon overlords of faerun (one that educated his favoured slaves and gave them powers akin to his own).
Perhaps the old order could be dedicated to preserving and serving (or perhaps mastering) dragonkind, that way it could have monk members and non monk members, thus representing a western style version of the eastern monasteries. |
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Rymac
Learned Scribe
USA
315 Posts |
Posted - 05 Nov 2015 : 22:08:44
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I got the idea from what little was written in FR1 was that the Citadel of the Mists was affiliated with Tyr. Maybe I'm making the wrong connection, but I thought the monkish order was devoted to Tyr.
edit:
I finally remembered to look it up when I got home after a days slog of work. Page 52 of FR1, the monk Hlam [7th level monk, LG Tyr]. quote:
Twice tried and failed to become the White Master of Dragons. He was defeated by Iltmul at the Citadel of the Mists, and later by Iltmul's successor, Dumal Erard of the Company of Crazed Ventures.
It's funny how you can remember these things. |
- Ryan |
Edited by - Rymac on 05 Nov 2015 22:53:37 |
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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore
Australia
6648 Posts |
Posted - 06 Nov 2015 : 04:16:03
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In "my" Realms, monks are not necessarily associated with Orders, but more related to specific faiths (i.e. some faiths have them, most do not). They operate as monks in the classic sense of the term, but act as internal security/muscle for temples and monasteries in addition to the standard temple guards and their membership is drawn from lay worshippers without the connection to their deity that enables them to become clerics. I don't think they need to have an oriental/Eastern focus, just a religious one. So in my Realms, monks are almost exclusively associated only with the Triad, Oghma, Tempus, Eldath, Selune, Sune, Helm, Bhaal, Shar and Cyric. The Orders noted in the 3E FRCS are remnants of past religious situations and still give lip service to gods/religions but are not actually sanctioned by those faiths in the present day (i.e. the Sunsoul monks are not welcome as part of the faith of Lathander).
In real terms, the "Orders" were bolted onto the Realms in 3E as a means to introduce the revamped Monk class into the setting and provide a basis/justification for their existence. I'm not so sure that was actually required, but WotC obviously thought so.
-- George Krashos |
"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus |
Edited by - George Krashos on 06 Nov 2015 04:17:21 |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11701 Posts |
Posted - 06 Nov 2015 : 15:30:58
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The Edificant Library obviously has some "martial arts" orders there. I wouldn't be surprised with its fall that there aren't some small either multi-religious or single religious monasteries growing in the Amn, Tethyr, Vilhon, Chessenta area. I'm going to just throw out some ideas for discussion.
A multi-religious order known as the Edificant Order (maybe with ties to Spirit Soaring) which worships Auppenser, Oghma, Deneir, Savras, and Azuth. This group focuses on developing the mind, body, and spirit and their fighting styles would be more like wrestling than Eastern martial arts. As a result, these monks often multi-class as clerics, psions, archivists, and wizards. Also, this order serves like a traditional library gathering various magical and monstrous lore, as well as training non monks in the aforementioned classes and gathering sages as well.
A religious order devoted to the "art" side of martial arts, seeing in it a beauty in the "dance" of fighting. This would be a militant sect of Lliiran, Milil, and Sunite worshippers, and they'd most likely actually be a part of their regular temples and not separate (thus we may see temples of any of the aforementioned with shrines to the other two). Their fighting styles would be more like dance-fighting/kickboxing, and this religious order would definitely be part of more cosmopolitan areas rather than secluded. This group is likely to have bards/monks amongst their numbers.
A religious order devoted to embracing one's wild nature, experiencing life's pleasures, and embracing the magical beasts of the world. This group would have ties to druidic circles and rangers and would be devoted to Sharess, Nobanion, and Luruar (with different sects having more focus on one deity than the other). It would also be very popular with non-human faiths such as catfolk, wemics, hybsils, and centaurs. This group would definitely be more secluded, but less likely to be a cloistered order. Its members may also multi-class as druids, rangers, or barbarians and its order will likely include single classed members of said classes. Their fighting styles would focus on using ones natural attacks (claws, hooves, biting, tails, etc...).
A religious order devoted to tactical combat focusing on the Red Knight for those who aren't traditional fighters or priests, but use their tactial abilities to defeat their opponents. For instance, this may include a sect who trains their monks also as archivists, clerics or wizards. As a result, this religious order may also train many mystic theurges, archivists, clerics, or wizards as well. This order would be interested in gathering information on various fighting styles, and this might also be a very good way to introduce the various schools of the "Tome of Battle - Book of Nine Swords" as well. Each such Red Knight sect might serve as a training point for the various classes in that book (crusader, swordsage, warblade, etc...), though other "sects" filled with tome of battle devotees might be devoted to another deity (like Garagos, Kossuth, Leira, etc...) based on the nature of that fighting style. I see this order as being one which subscribes to all fighting styles, attempting to learn from each.
Anyway, that's some ideas that I see for introducing physically combative monastic orders into the realms. Its a little off topic, but I think it goes along with the vein of what we're discussing. Obviously, there would be other "monastic" orders of the realms with no ties to physical combat and more devotion to their own deities goals/portfolios.... and those might even be linked to some of these. For instance, the one which includes the Lliirans, Milil, and Sunite worshippers may also have people there solely devoted to art in itself, and they are defended by the aforementioned individuals. Similarly, the "wild" order I mentioned may also feature individuals devoted to promoting nature (through breeding animals and growing exotic plants) and these "monks" serve to defend them. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Wrigley
Senior Scribe
Czech Republic
605 Posts |
Posted - 07 Nov 2015 : 10:23:33
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I quite like the idea fo Old Order to have some draconic (or Sarrukh) ties. I have tought about giving more importance to word "Order" than "Old", but this would lead to Amaunator who already has Sun Soul order in my eyes. Serpents are cunning and may have created some form of special forces during their era which somehow endured to this day, but with much confusion about their original purpose. Does anybody have more information about this order (any sliver will do)?
BTW there are more Orders in Champions of Valor/Ruin sourcebooks (with prestige classes). |
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JohnLynch
Learned Scribe
Australia
243 Posts |
Posted - 08 Nov 2015 : 02:47:59
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quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos
In "my" Realms, monks are not necessarily associated with Orders, but more related to specific faiths (i.e. some faiths have them, most do not). They operate as monks in the classic sense of the term
This is how I'm handling it. The new 5th edition monks (Way of Death) are friars to Ilmater who Specialised in both helping people who are dying and helping those who've lost someone (helping people accept the pain). Way of the Sun is treated as a generic order for all monks and can represent anyone who serves a god that has abbeys. Each god that has an order of monks gets a write up (Amaunators monks travel the land and offer legal advice to those who need it. Chauntean abbeys are essentially retirement homes for againg priests and particularly devout followers) so that they don't have that enforced eastern flavour. On the other hand the PHB monks do capture that eastern flavour and are most common in areas that have populations of Shou or kenku. |
DM of the Realms: A blog for my Forgotten Realms adventures. |
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Bladewind
Master of Realmslore
Netherlands
1280 Posts |
Posted - 08 Nov 2015 : 19:28:37
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The Old Order is ascribed to train some monk/rogue/shadowdancer types and monk/sorcerers. The Old Order being so ancient, I linked them to a couple ancient religious pantheons or primordial cults.
The shadowdancer branch is linked to a shady deity of the Sarruhk (unknown aspect of Ouroboros) while a sorcerous branch has a history with a draconic primodial (Asgorath). The shadowdancer style old order monks train in darkness, aspiring to becoming 'one with the dark' to strike from anywhere. Their martial art when seen in light is very evasive and has practical strikes and holds. The sorcerous order tries to blend talent in the Art with martial prowess, resulting in a very flashy and deadly style that favors overwhelming arcane infused strikes combined with powerful holds that force opponents into debilitating spell effects.
Another branch of monks of the old order in my realms is linked to Jannath (Chauntea), and are protectors of several druidic groves of Silvanus and tracks of land husbanded by 'Pastoral' chauntean clerics. These monks believe Chauntea/Jannath to be even older than Silvanus, and train their communities close to Silvanus and Chauntea to defend themselves with common farming tools. Their fighting style has had several evolutions alongside the common objects used in faerunian agriculture, but a recent one has seen a rise in the expert use of poleweapons such as quarterstaffs, flails and scythes to fend off armed bandits and marauding monsters. The unarmed fighting focus of these orders emphasize techniques of escape and defence. |
My campaign sketches
Druidic Groves
Creature Feature: Giant Spiders |
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Brylock
Acolyte
USA
43 Posts |
Posted - 14 Nov 2015 : 18:35:50
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You know, there's nothing that even says a Monk needs to be part of a Monastic Order, especially with the way Backrounds work in 5e; that's just tying yourself to a traditional mode of D&D thought without actually bothering to see if other explanations work better at times.
The Monk is clearly an homage to the kung-fu films that were popular during the decade the Monk was originally added at a class (though according to the creators it's actual origins are a bit twistier, but I won't go into that here), and it's notable that not EVERY martial artist is an actual Shaolin Monk; many are just TRAINED by them, and it's fair to say that the vast majority of protagonists are NOT actual monks, just possessing their esoteric martial skills through a particular form of education for SKILLS is indeed what they are, meaning a set of talents anyone with the appropriate education can learn if they put the effort into it and have the proper education.
I see that "well THIS type of character implies THIS type of backstory, so the only way I can make an original character is by choosing a different class" over and over and over with newer or more hidebound players, and all it is is them limiting their options. I mean there's even examples of "Monks" who aren't actually monks in Faerun, like Danika from the Cleric Quintet being taught by a random guy who adopted and taught her her abilities, much as any random wizard can take an apprentice to teach him about learning-based arcane magic.
This of course runs into the problem of the "Monk" class not actually being being monastic in nature, but in this game have three separate classes (Wizard, Sorcerer, Warlock) who's literal definition of the class name all are basically "a guy what does magic", so it's not the first name weirdness that D&D has. Or even the third. |
"It's almost like whenever you talk you flip through the dictionary and pull out words at random or something." |
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combatmedic
Senior Scribe
USA
428 Posts |
Posted - 14 Nov 2015 : 19:19:20
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quote:
Originally posted by dazzlerdal
Well I'm pretty sure I've heard of Franciscan monks and Dominican monks so I think there are real world orders but I cannot profess to know how they work. What I do know is that in England in particular in the dark ages, when civilisation collapsed after the fall of Rome, the monasteries were the places where knowledge was stored and maintained.
They were the few who knew how to read and write, they transcribed books to keep them safe, etc.
I imagine the monasteries working like that. They are the repositories of knowledge and ideals as well as in some cases being a church's representative to the common folk in rural areas (where they are almost always located).
And I'm quite happy removing special abilities from holy warriors. It always bugged me that lifestyle choices had a class. A ranger is really just someone with some wilderness lore, a paladin is just a martial priest or a religious fighter. I find it rather restricting and prefer to make the paladin orders akin to things like the knights Templar or hospitaller where everyone could join and be a full representative.
I would say Paladins are special men favored by the cosmic forces of Law and Good. An order full of them makes little sense to me. How many characters have 17 CHR, anyway?
An individual paladin might join a fighting brotherhood, but that is a different situation.
I am focusing on old school Paladins, here, natch.
Kung Fu Monks always seemed odd to me outside a specific cultural context. Greyhawk has them, but in the older books they most often seem to be Scarlet Brotherhood members, so there is a specific cultural context.
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YMMV= Your Mileage May Vary. I'm putting it here so I don't have to type it in every other post. :) |
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combatmedic
Senior Scribe
USA
428 Posts |
Posted - 14 Nov 2015 : 19:21:58
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quote:
Originally posted by Rymac
I seem to recall there was another order of monks in the North or Savage North that was hinted way, way back in FR1 Waterdeep and the North. Wasn't there a monk that was a member of the Company of the Crazed Venturers? Maybe I'm just remembering wrong.
As for does the monk really fit or belong within a European fantasy setting, probably not, but its inclusion in early Dungeons and Dragons is what made it so enigmatic and fantastically eclectic.
Despite what I posted just now about cultural context, I probably should add that most of Faerun is not very much like Europe.
YMMV |
YMMV= Your Mileage May Vary. I'm putting it here so I don't have to type it in every other post. :) |
Edited by - combatmedic on 14 Nov 2015 19:37:40 |
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Rymac
Learned Scribe
USA
315 Posts |
Posted - 16 Nov 2015 : 06:06:19
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quote:
Originally posted by combatmedic
Despite what I posted just now about cultural context, I probably should add that most of Faerun is not very much like Europe.
Not disagreeing. Although Faerun is only "European" in the broadest of generalizations, different regions, nations, city-states, etc of Faerun do not have real world analogues, per se.
Faerun has always had broad enough to support the Monk class. That it disappeared during a large part of 2nd edition (along with the assassin class) was a travesty. I recall it being a very pleasant surprise when Sean K. Reynolds reintroduced the two classes in the Greyhawk Setting's The Scarlet Brotherhood for the 2nd edition rules. (Which of course I immediately retconned back into my Realms campaign.) |
- Ryan |
Edited by - Rymac on 16 Nov 2015 06:08:56 |
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combatmedic
Senior Scribe
USA
428 Posts |
Posted - 17 Nov 2015 : 04:19:49
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quote:
Originally posted by Rymac
quote:
Originally posted by combatmedic
Despite what I posted just now about cultural context, I probably should add that most of Faerun is not very much like Europe.
Not disagreeing. Although Faerun is only "European" in the broadest of generalizations, different regions, nations, city-states, etc of Faerun do not have real world analogues, per se.
Faerun has always had broad enough to support the Monk class. That it disappeared during a large part of 2nd edition (along with the assassin class) was a travesty. I recall it being a very pleasant surprise when Sean K. Reynolds reintroduced the two classes in the Greyhawk Setting's The Scarlet Brotherhood for the 2nd edition rules. (Which of course I immediately retconned back into my Realms campaign.)
Scarlet Brotherhood ! I have it.
I liked almost everything in it except the portrayal of how the Sea Princes acquired slaves, which I thought didn't really make sense. You'd think they would just lay off the coast and buy captives from the various warring cities and tribes. Why invade a tropical hellhole inhabited by monsters and cannibals?
I would also use more Tharizdun, but he did allow for that with the Balck Brotherhood stuff, IIRC. Monks and assassins appeared well designed. Like the speciality priests in that book, I have never playtested them.
I have played an AD&D first edition monk, very briefly, in a 2E game. Not Oriental. He hung out it player character beastman.
In Realms, I would be tempted to make monks mainly a Bloodstone Lands thing. Not Oriental in the sense of the Far East. More like some bizarre version of Syraic mystics, punching and kicking their way to the Holy through the power of cold desert style Pankration.
If that makes sense.
I cannot recall why I thought Syria should be part of it, unless maybe it was the whole Grandfather of Assassins thing.
Loviatar for the LE monks.
Ilmater for the LG monks.
Both for the LN monks.
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YMMV= Your Mileage May Vary. I'm putting it here so I don't have to type it in every other post. :) |
Edited by - combatmedic on 17 Nov 2015 04:23:43 |
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Monastic Orders
