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Originally posted by Aldrick

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Originally posted by Irennan

In my mind, I was using the Selune/Sehanine case as reference (whom I later used as example) when I wrote that. They don't have clashing or contrasting M.O., they have some similar portfolios, but teachings and other areas of influence different enough to keep them separate, but allied. I don't think that currently there are two deities who are basically the same in the Realms (and even then, becoming a demigod would probably still be better than losing their identity).

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I don't see merging with another deity as necessarily a bad thing, or even really a loss of identity. Did Re or Horus lose their identities when they merged? Or did they simply become one with one another?

Sure, if you're a deity that highly values your individualism, this might be a problem. However, if you are a deity committed to a certain goal or cause, and you believe that cause is best served through merging--why would you resist? This would mean that individualism is more important than the goal or cause.

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Originally posted by Irennan

Sehanine would not necessarily get moonlight (that would also make her overlap with Eilistraee), she and Selune could split the moon portfolio, according to the various phases. Selune may get waxing cresecent, 1st quarter, waxing gibbous and full moon (as her power rises with the moon), Sehanine the phases leading to the new moon. That wouldn't put any of the two goddesses in a subservient position. However, even a goddess of moonlight wouldn't become ''secondary'', if she had other significant portfolios: this is the case for Sehanine.

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You're right about moonlight and Eilistraee. I had forgotten about that. This just makes the situation more difficult for Sehanine.

I can't envision a scenario in which Selune gives up any aspect of the Moon for Sehanine. It just goes counter to her interests. I don't think being good aligned, friends, and allies is going to make that possible. This is an active demotion for Selune, and the Moon is her big thing. Sehanine has lots of other powerful portfolios to fall back on. Even if she had to give up Death and the Moon, she'd still be the Goddess of Moon Elves, Mysticism, and Dreams--at a minimum. That's a pretty strong portfolio right there. So, it's difficult for me to imagine Selune giving up any aspect of her core concept. It's like asking Bane to negotiate over his control over the portfolio of Tyranny. Hatred? Maybe. Tyranny? Never. It's his core concept.

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Originally posted by Irennan

Yes, there might be heresies, but, if the information came directly from the goddess, in various forms (visions, dreams and so on), then I don't think that many worshipers would doubt that. The heresies would be a minority, and the bulk of the church could also deny that and spread the true information.

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We are assuming that the visions and dreams are clear. We are also assuming that Sehanine's faithful would be willing to accept that she isn't really the Goddess of the Moon--she's just goddess of part of it or an aspect of it or not really a Moon goddess at all. It means that the Elves would have to essentially acknowledge that a human deity has the true providence over some or all of those aspects. Would Elven pride allow that?

It's not like Sehanine can tell them, flat out, 'Hey look guys, I sat down with Selune, and we negotiated this deal. I decided to give up X, Y, and Z. She decided to give up A, B, and C. We're totally cool with this decision. We're doing this because the pantheons are merging. So don't sweat it. This is just some minor changes so Ao doesn't get upset with us.'

Inherently, the moment Sehanine is no longer the goddess over Death or the Moon, her faithful are going to be confused. What was true yesterday is now not true today. Her faithful are not going to understand how or why any of this is happening. The bulk of them are likely to reject it, and would have to be convinced by the higher ups in the clergy to go along. There is no telling how many hold outs there would be, but my feeling is that Elven pride would get the better of a lot of them. This would be a straight up introduction for them into--what is now, currently--an entirely human pantheon. It would not simply be a merger of pantheons, it would be a merger of cultures... and frankly, Elven culture is likely to be the one that suffers and is mostly destroyed. This is simply because the humans are more numerous.

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Originally posted by Irennan

This really depends on how you look at it. A merger could no longer be any of the two parts, or could be both parts living together. Either way, individuality goes out. Individuality tends to be something valuable (especially to ''chaotic'' characters).

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Originally posted by Irennan

Well, since we're talking about canon, deities are known to be able to directly inform their followers. Ofc they wouldn't tell their people about eventual agreements, but they have the power to (mostly) avoid confusion.

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Originally posted by Irennan

But if we assumed that the human culture ''won'' because of their numbers, and Sehanine lost Moon and Death (she would still keep the elven dead, tho), what if elves kept associating her with those two concepts, and Selune/Kelemvor answered to prayers regarding that? AFAIK, portfolios are not something that mortals are aware of, they associate deities with given a concept, because they had proof that said beings have power over it. Elves would still relate some manifestations with Sehanine, even if their cause is actually Selune. Humans would tell them that they're wrong, but the elves would hardly believe them and keep associating Sehanine to the moon. Their belief wouldn't be enough to actually alter the portfolio, as the humans would greatly outnumber the elves. And I seriously doubt that the church of Selune would hunt the Sehanine worshipers as heretics. It would completely OOC.

Either way, even if Sehanine lost Moon/Death, and elves stopped thinking of her as a moon goddess, she would still be able to survive in a mixed culture because of her different portfolios. Same for other deities in that situation.

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Originally posted by Aldrick

I agree that no matter how you slice it individuality is lost. However, my point was that it comes down to an ultimate decision of what matters more. Do the goals and aims that you are trying to achieve matter more, or does your self-preservation matter more? If the (presumably good) aims you are seeking to bring about matter more, and would be harmed by not merging--then you are hurting that cause in order to sustain yourself.

Don't get me wrong. I'm not saying it's an easy choice or even an ideal choice. I am just saying that I can envision deities agreeing to merge together for the greater good of what they're trying to achieve--sacrificing their individuality to become something greater. Under the right circumstances, I believe it could even be viewed as the ultimate act of goodness and self-sacrifice.

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Originally posted by Irennan

Well, since we're talking about canon, deities are known to be able to directly inform their followers. Ofc they wouldn't tell their people about eventual agreements, but they have the power to (mostly) avoid confusion.

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Well, that depends. See the whole Lathander situation above. We honestly don't know what limitations are placed on deities in this regard. We certainly see clear evidence that in some circumstances they do act the way that you describe, but we also have evidence in some circumstances where they don't. Another example that led to a schism was the cult of Oghma over who is really the leader of the church. Oghma could have easily solved this problem, but chose not to (or couldn't / wasn't allowed) for whatever reason.

It's a problem with the canon, in my view, but I think you can slice it either way. (However, it basically boils down to: "The author / designer makes the decision based on the outcome that they want.") This is something I want solved in 5E FR.

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Originally posted by Irennan

But if we assumed that the human culture ''won'' because of their numbers, and Sehanine lost Moon and Death (she would still keep the elven dead, tho), what if elves kept associating her with those two concepts, and Selune/Kelemvor answered to prayers regarding that? AFAIK, portfolios are not something that mortals are aware of, they associate deities with given a concept, because they had proof that said beings have power over it. Elves would still relate some manifestations with Sehanine, even if their cause is actually Selune. Humans would tell them that they're wrong, but the elves would hardly believe them and keep associating Sehanine to the moon. Their belief wouldn't be enough to actually alter the portfolio, as the humans would greatly outnumber the elves. And I seriously doubt that the church of Selune would hunt the Sehanine worshipers as heretics. It would completely OOC.

Either way, even if Sehanine lost Moon/Death, and elves stopped thinking of her as a moon goddess, she would still be able to survive in a mixed culture because of her different portfolios. Same for other deities in that situation.

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I agree that this is how it would start out. However, as a premise here, we are making the assumption that the Elven Pantheon has been absorbed into the Faerunian Pantheon--same as the Netherese Pantheon. So, you are correct that the Elves may simply refuse to acknowledge the new reality, and Selune might let it slide. However, over time the Elven deities would begin to shift and change as they gathered more and more human followers and integrated more fully into the pantheon. The entire reason that this would be happening in the first place, is because Elven culture is merging into human culture. (Otherwise the Pantheons would remain separate.)

All of this means that over time Elven culture (as well as Human culture) would change to reflect this integration. This has a huge impact on the deities. What happens to Sehanine several centuries or millenia down the road? I think she'd still be around, but I don't know how changed she'd be from the incarnation that we know today.

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Originally posted by dazzlerdal

The way I see it is that tens of thousands of years ago the elves had different pantheons, and the dwarves, and the gnomes. These pantheons were split along geographic lines and were different between the various kingdoms and continents, etc.

Even the Sarrukh had different gods in the different areas (look at the writeup on Isstossessifil and Okoth.

Eventually over time, the movement of people and various wars and trade etc unified the various gods into a single pantheon (except for the sarrukh, their empires were short lived and separated by large distances and ended before they ever unified). The unification of the elves probably followed the Crown Wars when various regions became contested as the Ilythiiri and Arvandaar empires invaded other regions.

So what we are witnessing with the fall of the Untheric pantheon is the last remaining geographic pantheon for the humans, the Mulhorandi (and its really small). As it stands the Mulhorandi pantheon has absolutely no chance of surviving the next few centuries. It's empires are dwindling and decadent and are constantly being invaded by trade and migration from the Faerunian pantheon. Thay has already fallen to the Faerunian pantheon and Chessenta is contested.

Once the Mulhorandi pantheon fails we have a racial pantheon for humans on Toril.

Now I dislike unifying concepts so I reinvigorated the Mulhorandi pantheon by merging the dying remnants of the Untheric pantheon with it, using the invasion of Unther by Mulhorand as a starting point. With the larger Mulhorantheric pantheon now representing the people of Mulhorand and Unther it is better able to resist the depredations of the Faerunian pantheon. It makes them more able to contest Chessenta and even begin to contest Thay (Thay only hated the Mulhorandi gods, not Untheric).





As for expanding into contested regions. For my own take on it, gods do nothing as always. Thoth doesn't hop over to Waterdeep and contest the region. It is the worshippers that cause the contestation.

If a region contains only worshippers of a certain pantheon then that region is part of that pantheon. If a region contains worshippers that venerate deities in multiple pantheons then that region is contested, but the numbers are important.

Take Chessenta for instance. Chessenta is a contested region because people worship Tempus and Anhur/Ramman, thus the two war gods are contesting the portfolio of war (and Anhur is also contesting a number of other portfolios like lightning, etc). Mystra will be contesting portfolios of magic with Isis/Ishtar.

Whereas in Thay the region is not believed to be contested because religion is discriminated against and the worship of Mulhorandi gods is practically outlawed (however I reckon the majority of common Mulan and Rashemi actually secretly worship Mulhorandi and Untheric gods in a pidgin fashion making the region secretly contested).

While there is no clear majority of worshippers from one pantheon (say 80%) in a region that means that by default any acts by mortals represented by a particular portfolio do not automatically go to the god of that portfolio. Instead the worship energy from those acts go to whichever god or pantheon the particular individual performing the act venerates (most people do not worship a single god and only pay lip service to a pantheon). Thus it is in a deity/church interest to try and expand and out compete rivals in contested regions because it means all acts send energy to their deity by default if they have the majority worship.

So the Church of Thoth sends some worshippers to Waterdeep and it has absolutely no effect. Mulhorand gets wiped out by a catastrophe and tens of thousands of Mulan migrate to Waterdeep and you suddenly have a contested region and Mystra's church will begin aggressive conversions quite quickly.

Or at least that's how I play it. No god nonsense, just plain old demographics and common sense (applied to imaginary and meta physical concepts).

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Originally posted by Aldrick

see -

I agree with what you're saying as a premise, though I think you're understanding of how the deities in the Realms work is incorrect.

As far as I am aware, the only deity that is directly linked (as in the deity IS this thing) with their portfolio is Mystra. Even in this case, she is only linked with the Weave aspect of her portfolio. Non-Weave magic continues to function normally in her absence.

If Selune were to die, for example, the Moon would not suddenly cease to exist. If Chauntea were to die, things would continue to grow, and the land and farmers would continue to exist.

The only situation in which I can think that is in anyway comparable is the death of Bhaal during the Time of Troubles which coincided with the death of all assassins. However, this was because Myrkul used a ritual that sacrificed all the assassins--murder and death continued to happen in Bhaal's absence.

There was also some tomfoolery that happened during the whole Cyric to Kelemvor transition with the souls of the dead... but that was an administrative problem.

In short, when you say, "...if the third is true, then the moon is just a theme or mascot, not a portfolio of responsibility and power; a "moon goddess" is just a goddess with certain trappings, like a Detroit Lion just has a lion on his helmet." This is more or less the truth in the Realms.

However, I think it ignores a fundamental aspect of how things work, and one of the reasons deities need worshipers. Now, I don't think this is stated explicitly in canon, though I think there are lots of things that hint at it being true, but basically the deities of the Realms operate off of Planescape rules. In other words, what mortals believe to be true is important. What this means is that you have two deities: Horus-Re and Amaunator. Both lay claim to the Sun as their portfolio. Therefore, both are in contention for power over the Sun. They both have varying degrees of control over the Sun, but they are not -THE SUN- itself (in the same way Mystra is -THE WEAVE- itself). Their share of power and control over this element of their portfolio grows in direct proportion to how many beings in the Realms BELIEVE that they are -THE GOD- of the Sun.

This is the reason when pantheons of deities start to have overlapping worshipers there is a conflict. There can only be one deity above the level of demigod with the same portfolio. What this essentially means is that over time, as globalization in the Realms continues to occur, there is going to be a single unified pantheon that encompasses the entire Realms, and those deities above the rank of demigod will exercise complete control over the things in their portfolios.

In other words, Selune and Sehanine cannot co-exist so long as both are goddesses of the Moon. So long as they remain in separate pantheons, they are fine, but as Elves merge into human society or humans into Elven society and the cultures co-mingle conflict is inevitable. One of them has to die off, they have to merge together, or there has to be some other event that somehow throws things in the favor of one goddess over another.

This is where heresies among mortals come into play, and one of the reasons deities promote them. It's my belief--and this is speculation on my part, but it is how I play it in my Realms--is that the deities are in many ways bound to mortal beliefs. They are not fully independent beings. This is one of the reasons powerful fiends have historically rejected ascension to divinity. The moment you become a deity you are in some ways a slave to mortal beliefs. If mortals begin to see you differently, you will literally begin to change to reflect that belief. Thus, if Tempus begins to be seen not only as the deity of war but a deity of plunder and pillaging, and believers begin to see him accordingly his personality will change to reflect that reality. Similarly, if believers begin to believe something happened in the past of a deity that didn't actually happen, the deity will start to believe that it did happen and that it is true. A deity, therefore, is a reflection of mortal belief. They are shaped, re-shaped, and destroyed by it.

All of this gives the deities an impetus to really care about their worshipers and what is going on in the mortal world. It gives them the desire to manipulate events to unfold in ways that are favorable to them, and that will further their own goals and agenda... this allows them to exercise some degree of control over their own identity and sense of self, rather than leaving it to the fate of other deities (both rivals and allies) and ignorant mortals.

Deities have phenomenal cosmic powers, but it all comes at a heavy price--the reliance on the belief of mortals.

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Originally posted by sleyvas

and maybe that was Ao's plan and why he had Leira transform herself into the book known as the Cyrinishad (if that is what happened.... ).

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Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

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Originally posted by sleyvas

and maybe that was Ao's plan and why he had Leira transform herself into the book known as the Cyrinishad (if that is what happened.... ).

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I don't know that I've every seen that theory before... While I don't buy it, it does lead me to some interesting speculations concerning the her and the book...

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Originally posted by sleyvas

Just a note on the "Thay has already fallen to the contested pantheon". Actually, not it hasn't. According to the original dreams of the red wizards, the Mulhorandi pantheon was still around, but it was abused. However, I could see some of them actively worshipping Set as an enemy of the Mulhorandi Pantheon. Not a lot of them mind you. Now if we're talking 5th edition.... if the Mulhorandi return, with the Banites acting as they did.... the Mulan peoples just MIGHT embrace the Mulan Pantheon over the Faerunian.

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Originally posted by Irennan

I hope that in the upcoming book, they will give at least a small explanation to the return of some of the gods that are known to be back (namely, those who have a story leading to their disappearance, like Leira, or Myrkul, or Eilistraee and Vhaeraun). Saying ''Ao did it'' really is the cheapest thing that they could do (it would also be a bit unfair, to give some gods full novels/modules explaining their return, and saying ''they're back, now shut up'' for others).

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Originally posted by MrHedgehog

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Originally posted by Irennan

I hope that in the upcoming book, they will give at least a small explanation to the return of some of the gods that are known to be back (namely, those who have a story leading to their disappearance, like Leira, or Myrkul, or Eilistraee and Vhaeraun). Saying ''Ao did it'' really is the cheapest thing that they could do (it would also be a bit unfair, to give some gods full novels/modules explaining their return, and saying ''they're back, now shut up'' for others).

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Why can't Ao just snap his fingers and resurrect Gods?
In a world with resurrection spells... and we know gods are "never really dead". He can make mortals suddenly greater powers (Mystra, Cyric and Kelemvor) We already know he has total control over the Gods from events like the Time of Troubles.

He is supposed to be an omnipotent overpower that can do anything

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Originally posted by sleyvas

Gotta say, I agree with Irennan there. I'm glad the deities are alive, but I'd like to see Ao's power in the matter lessened. I like the idea that he does have a lot of power, but that he intentionally overstates it to keep the gods in line and in fear of him. I would like to see some theories floating amongst the human population about why and or how certain deities return.... even if they are heresies or falsities. The world should be abuzz with this stuff.

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Originally posted by Mirtek

Well, some stores already sell the SCAG one day too early and Unther and Mulhurond are back

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Originally posted by Gyor

The Mulhorand Gods are back and so is Gilgeam of the Untherite Pantheon, but in Incarnation form, so you can visit them in Mulhorand and Unther.

This was done without destroying Tymanther, but High Imaskar got exiled into the Purple Plains.

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Originally posted by Stones Finder

While I'm pleased to hear that Mulhorand and Unther are coming back, I'm not wild about Gilgeam returning. His death, and the subsequent chaos in Unther, was one of the most interesting things to come out of the Time of Troubles.

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Originally posted by JohnLynch

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Originally posted by Gyor

The Mulhorand Gods are back and so is Gilgeam of the Untherite Pantheon, but in Incarnation form, so you can visit them in Mulhorand and Unther.

This was done without destroying Tymanther, but High Imaskar got exiled into the Purple Plains.

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Wait. Is Tymanther still in the 5th edition Forgotten Realms?

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Originally posted by Gyor

The Mulhorand Gods are back and so is Gilgeam of the Untherite Pantheon, but in Incarnation form, so you can visit them in Mulhorand and Unther.

This was done without destroying Tymanther, but High Imaskar got exiled into the Purple Plains.

This seems to violate the rule about Gods being distant that they had for 5e.

Also the Mulhorand Gods no longer support slavery, nor are they as culturally isolated. Ra and Horus are seperate again.

I wish they're give more details.

They don't give any domains for the Mulhorand Gods, but its mentioned that God Kings are grant Undying Pacts.

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Originally posted by Stones Finder

While I'm pleased to hear that Mulhorand and Unther are coming back, I'm not wild about Gilgeam returning. His death, and the subsequent chaos in Unther, was one of the most interesting things to come out of the Time of Troubles.

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Originally posted by combatmedic

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Originally posted by Gyor

The Mulhorand Gods are back and so is Gilgeam of the Untherite Pantheon, but in Incarnation form, so you can visit them in Mulhorand and Unther.

This was done without destroying Tymanther, but High Imaskar got exiled into the Purple Plains.

This seems to violate the rule about Gods being distant that they had for 5e.

Also the Mulhorand Gods no longer support slavery, nor are they as culturally isolated. Ra and Horus are seperate again.

I wish they're give more details.

They don't give any domains for the Mulhorand Gods, but its mentioned that God Kings are grant Undying Pacts.

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Ugh. No temple slavery in Mulhorand now? Sounds like the politically correct police have taken over at Hasbro.

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