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Schreckstoff
Seeker
53 Posts |
 Posted - 04 Nov 2015 : 20:23:24
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quote:
Originally posted by Lilianviaten
I love Dahlia's storyline, and I've always thought she gets too much unnecessary heat. RAS fans cheer on Entreri (who became a remorseless killer because he was abused as a child) and Jarlaxle (who became a callous manipulator because he grew up in a wicked society). When Dahlia steals, kills, and manipulates people because she was abused as a child and grew up in Thay with no parents, it's the end of the world.
People always compare Dahlia to RAS's other characters and see her as less rational and clear thinking. Well DUH! Characters like Bruenor, Catti, Jarlaxle, Kimmuriel, Entreri, and even Drizzt are all much older than her comparatively.
When she threw Effron over the cliff (which was horrible), she was TWELVE!! I see fans hold that over her head all the time, but I'm not sure what reaction they expected in her situation. She was a 12 year old girl who watched her parents be murdered in front of her before she was raped. Her destroyed village was occupied by the Shadovar, so she was forced to live with the same invaders who killed her parents and destroyed her village. Plus, she was forced to carry the baby of her rapist to term. Even in Faerun, I doubt there is any magical spell that helps you come up with a good response to that.
Now as we see her in the novels, I believe she's in her 40s. Given the slow development of elves, she's still in adolescence. Thay may not be quite as evil as Menzoberranzan, but it's still an awful place for a teenager to grow up and learn values. So you're right that Dahlia's trauma made for compelling plot points, but it seems that most readers just complain about her character, rather than trying to find any depth in her story.
Agreed she got off to a strong start it's just at the finish line that she stumbled, the last book she was really just a tool for Drizzt’s character growth. Which while not so greatly executed with her was great for Drizzt. It was when the whole love triangle started which felt completely forced to me, and still does, that I grew annoyed. Dahlia and Artemis didn't form a natural connection it was literally forced upon each other and Drizzt got excluded just to fan the flames.
The fight in Icewind Dale came a little out of nowhere and just threw her change from 4 books overboard. All in all though Dahlia was what Drizzt needed at the time and while it was always fated to end in a trainwreck it didn’t end satisfactorily. The fight between Cattie Brie and Dahlia made it even worse.
quote:
Originally posted by Lilianviaten
I'll admit to being far more occupied with the plotting of Gromph, Jarlaxle, and Kimmuriel than anything else in the most recent book, but I don't remember that. I thought she ventured off willingly with Tiago. It wouldn't surprise me though, because the drow are the biggest society of perverts in Faerun. When they first captured Drizzt in Gauntlgrym, I remember them salivating at the thought of raping Dahlia.
I don’t mind rape in books, it happens in real live and we shouldn’t shy away from the depiction but I don’t need a constant reminder. Doumwielle isn’t struggling but it’s pretty clear she isn’t consenting either. It’s also hard to say what remains of her will with Khazidea probing her, which btw is also a somewhat tiresome re-tread of a plotline.
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Complete Drizzt Saga - Check
In love with Farideh's Saga - Check
Disappointed at Erevis' Saga's apparent end - Check |
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Firestorm
Senior Scribe
Canada
826 Posts |
Posted - 04 Nov 2015 : 23:23:28
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quote:
Originally posted by Lilianviaten
quote:
Originally posted by Schreckstoff
Haven't finished the book yet but Doumwielle getting raped repeatedly bothers me. It worked as a plotpoint with Dahlia in the past but with Doumwiellemand repeatedly not so much.
I love Dahlia's storyline, and I've always thought she gets too much unnecessary heat. RAS fans cheer on Entreri (who became a remorseless killer because he was abused as a child) and Jarlaxle (who became a callous manipulator because he grew up in a wicked society). When Dahlia steals, kills, and manipulates people because she was abused as a child and grew up in Thay with no parents, it's the end of the world.
People always compare Dahlia to RAS's other characters and see her as less rational and clear thinking. Well DUH! Characters like Bruenor, Catti, Jarlaxle, Kimmuriel, Entreri, and even Drizzt are all much older than her comparatively.
When she threw Effron over the cliff (which was horrible), she was TWELVE!! I see fans hold that over her head all the time, but I'm not sure what reaction they expected in her situation. She was a 12 year old girl who watched her parents be murdered in front of her before she was raped. Her destroyed village was occupied by the Shadovar, so she was forced to live with the same invaders who killed her parents and destroyed her village. Plus, she was forced to carry the baby of her rapist to term. Even in Faerun, I doubt there is any magical spell that helps you come up with a good response to that.
Now as we see her in the novels, I believe she's in her 40s. Given the slow development of elves, she's still in adolescence. Thay may not be quite as evil as Menzoberranzan, but it's still an awful place for a teenager to grow up and learn values. So you're right that Dahlia's trauma made for compelling plot points, but it seems that most readers just complain about her character, rather than trying to find any depth in her story.
The worst part is, she was 12 in elf years.
That makes her about, what, 3 years old in human maturity years? People are STILL wondering how she conceived a child. |
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Paran
Acolyte
18 Posts |
Posted - 04 Nov 2015 : 23:36:22
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| I wouldn't mind if Dahlia killed Cattie Brie. |
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BenN
Senior Scribe
Japan
382 Posts |
Posted - 04 Nov 2015 : 23:37:05
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quote:
Originally posted by sno4wy
quote:
I love Dahlia's storyline, and I've always thought she gets too much unnecessary heat. RAS fans cheer on Entreri (who became a remorseless killer because he was abused as a child) and Jarlaxle (who became a callous manipulator because he grew up in a wicked society). When Dahlia steals, kills, and manipulates people because she was abused as a child and grew up in Thay with no parents, it's the end of the world.
People always compare Dahlia to RAS's other characters and see her as less rational and clear thinking. Well DUH! Characters like Bruenor, Catti, Jarlaxle, Kimmuriel, Entreri, and even Drizzt are all much older than her comparatively.
When she threw Effron over the cliff (which was horrible), she was TWELVE!! I see fans hold that over her head all the time, but I'm not sure what reaction they expected in her situation. She was a 12 year old girl who watched her parents be murdered in front of her before she was raped. Her destroyed village was occupied by the Shadovar, so she was forced to live with the same invaders who killed her parents and destroyed her village. Plus, she was forced to carry the baby of her rapist to term. Even in Faerun, I doubt there is any magical spell that helps you come up with a good response to that.
Now as we see her in the novels, I believe she's in her 40s. Given the slow development of elves, she's still in adolescence. Thay may not be quite as evil as Menzoberranzan, but it's still an awful place for a teenager to grow up and learn values. So you're right that Dahlia's trauma made for compelling plot points, but it seems that most readers just complain about her character, rather than trying to find any depth in her story.
I agree with all that you've stated. I like Dahlia as well, moreso than any of Bob's other female characters in fact. I feel that she has more depth, dimension and relatability than all-around perfect characters like Catti-Brie.
Yup, I agree with all of this too. Dahlia is one of my favourites among Bob's characters; flawed, yes, but interesting. I hope that Bob develops her story arc with Artemis; I thought their budding relationship was far more interesting than Drizzt+Cat.
I'm also hoping to see what happens further with Doum'wielle, and if/how she can be reconciled with her mother. I like the concept of conflicting drow-surface elf duality in one character.
I also would not mind at all if Dahlia curb-stomped Cat. She's insufferable. |
Edited by - BenN on 04 Nov 2015 23:38:12 |
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader
USA
2708 Posts |
Posted - 04 Nov 2015 : 23:44:01
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| Personally, I would like to see Doum'wielle, but I could care less about Dahlia. What happened to her was terrible, and usually I like the more angsty characters (I like Entreri), but I can't stand Dahlia's character. Those books where is it was her and Drizzt were painful to read. I hated their relationship. She has a chance to redeem herself in my eyes, but as of now, I don't like reading about her. Is she suffering? Yes. Do I wish she wasn't suffering? Of course. It doesn't mean I like her, and if Bob had decided to kill her off instead of making her a MATRON (honestly that was a wtf moment for me) I would have been fine with that. |
Sweet water and light laughter |
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader
USA
2708 Posts |
Posted - 04 Nov 2015 : 23:44:55
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| I would however like to see more Entreri and Effron. I adore characters with dark pasts, I nust can't stand Dahlia. |
Sweet water and light laughter |
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sno4wy
Senior Scribe
USA
466 Posts |
Posted - 05 Nov 2015 : 02:20:32
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quote:
The worst part is, she was 12 in elf years.
That makes her about, what, 3 years old in human maturity years? People are STILL wondering how she conceived a child.
Sorry, but did you mean that she was 12 years in "human years"/the "normal years" reckoning? Which would make her the elf equivalent biologically as a 3 year-old-human? If that was what you meant, I agree, there shouldn't have been a way for her to be able to conceive. Bob often overlooks practical details like this, I suppose we just have to chalk it up to the whole elves being a magical race thing.  |
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader
USA
2708 Posts |
Posted - 05 Nov 2015 : 02:24:01
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| I think she was actually 12, because, if I remember correctly, elves mature at the same rate as humans until their earlier teens (I seem to remember reading that in Races of the Wild), but even so, she shouldn't have been able to conceive. For one thing, she likely hadn't even reached puberty, and two, it's hard enough for -adult- elves to conceive. |
Sweet water and light laughter |
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Schreckstoff
Seeker
53 Posts |
Posted - 05 Nov 2015 : 11:21:58
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Very well said I agree with all of it and a very apt description on what ultimately made Dahlia not necessarily a bad character but less of one. At some point she really just became a plot device instead of a full fledged character.
And to the other points in the book Drizzt actually said "I'm not a murderer." Which did elicit a chuckle out of me. I mean I get what he means in the context he spoke it but by all accounts he murdered a lot of people in the name of his moral codex.
My issue with the whole Neverwinter quadrilogy was that it was way too preoccupied with setting up the current storyline than following its own. It just left one wanting for more. Barely any of the plotlines got any conclusion and even if they did it was shortlived as immediately undone.
Was it really necessary for Effron Dahlia and Artemis to get involved again. I'm glad Ambergris and Athrogate didn't fade away since they fit in well with the group but Dahlia could have just walked off into the sunset with Effron and it wouldn't change anything. They could resurface at any time if needed and recap their story since. It makes even less sense when you consider that their involvement was due to netheril and had nothing to do with the drow, bring them back once Netheril becomes a hot topic again don't shoehorn them in. |
Complete Drizzt Saga - Check
In love with Farideh's Saga - Check
Disappointed at Erevis' Saga's apparent end - Check |
Edited by - Schreckstoff on 05 Nov 2015 11:48:46 |
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Paran
Acolyte
18 Posts |
Posted - 06 Nov 2015 : 00:09:31
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| I'll tell you the biggest issue. Or at least, the one that bothers me the most. Drizzt, the main character of the series, barely appears anymore. His page count pales when compared with the early books. |
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader
USA
2708 Posts |
Posted - 06 Nov 2015 : 00:20:26
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I think the older books (not just Drizzt but the FR books in general) did a good job of balancing epic stories while focusing on the characters. I like big, epic stories, but I also enjoyed the micro-stories.
@Paran: I agree. As I said in an earlier review on this book, it's like they slapped the Drizzt label with the idea it would sell more, yet Drizzt was unconscious for a good portion of the story |
Sweet water and light laughter |
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sno4wy
Senior Scribe
USA
466 Posts |
Posted - 06 Nov 2015 : 00:41:12
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| I personally don't mind the absence of Drizzt. Imo, he's boring, predictable, and way too preachy. However, I do agree that it's questionable to market a product in his name while he himself doesn't appear much. |
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Schreckstoff
Seeker
53 Posts |
Posted - 06 Nov 2015 : 14:15:21
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| Well the book is called Archmage, I personally expected Drizzt to barely appear at all. I was pleasantly surprised. |
Complete Drizzt Saga - Check
In love with Farideh's Saga - Check
Disappointed at Erevis' Saga's apparent end - Check |
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Paran
Acolyte
18 Posts |
Posted - 06 Nov 2015 : 15:02:02
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quote:
Originally posted by Schreckstoff
Well the book is called Archmage, I personally expected Drizzt to barely appear at all. I was pleasantly surprised.
In that case they should have put Gromph on the cover, otherwise it's false advertising. I know they put Drizzt there because he sells, but it's still a scummy move. Like what they did with the Companions cover. It makes you think it's all about him, when in fact he barely appears in the beginning and the frickin ending. |
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Firestorm
Senior Scribe
Canada
826 Posts |
Posted - 06 Nov 2015 : 23:53:59
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quote:
Originally posted by Schreckstoff
Very well said I agree with all of it and a very apt description on what ultimately made Dahlia not necessarily a bad character but less of one. At some point she really just became a plot device instead of a full fledged character.
And to the other points in the book Drizzt actually said "I'm not a murderer." Which did elicit a chuckle out of me. I mean I get what he means in the context he spoke it but by all accounts he murdered a lot of people in the name of his moral codex.
My issue with the whole Neverwinter quadrilogy was that it was way too preoccupied with setting up the current storyline than following its own. It just left one wanting for more. Barely any of the plotlines got any conclusion and even if they did it was shortlived as immediately undone.
Was it really necessary for Effron Dahlia and Artemis to get involved again. I'm glad Ambergris and Athrogate didn't fade away since they fit in well with the group but Dahlia could have just walked off into the sunset with Effron and it wouldn't change anything. They could resurface at any time if needed and recap their story since. It makes even less sense when you consider that their involvement was due to netheril and had nothing to do with the drow, bring them back once Netheril becomes a hot topic again don't shoehorn them in.
The only good part about that trilogy was Artemis and Drizzt becoming closer and moving them both to more grey area instead of keeping Drizzt a goodie two shoes(At first anyways....Gauntlgrym was the best book Bob wrote in years, but Drizzt reverted to goodie goodie quickly after Art showed up). Bringing the companions back to life was an error. I said it then and I stand by that.
Was more interesting seeing Grey area Drizzt.
For a guy who claims he hates reincarnation, Bob literally reincarnated every character, made Pwent available via summon, and took his series in a predictable direction again.
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Lilianviaten
Senior Scribe
489 Posts |
Posted - 07 Nov 2015 : 05:50:35
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quote:
Originally posted by Firestorm
quote:
Originally posted by Schreckstoff
Very well said I agree with all of it and a very apt description on what ultimately made Dahlia not necessarily a bad character but less of one. At some point she really just became a plot device instead of a full fledged character.
And to the other points in the book Drizzt actually said "I'm not a murderer." Which did elicit a chuckle out of me. I mean I get what he means in the context he spoke it but by all accounts he murdered a lot of people in the name of his moral codex.
My issue with the whole Neverwinter quadrilogy was that it was way too preoccupied with setting up the current storyline than following its own. It just left one wanting for more. Barely any of the plotlines got any conclusion and even if they did it was shortlived as immediately undone.
Was it really necessary for Effron Dahlia and Artemis to get involved again. I'm glad Ambergris and Athrogate didn't fade away since they fit in well with the group but Dahlia could have just walked off into the sunset with Effron and it wouldn't change anything. They could resurface at any time if needed and recap their story since. It makes even less sense when you consider that their involvement was due to netheril and had nothing to do with the drow, bring them back once Netheril becomes a hot topic again don't shoehorn them in.
The only good part about that trilogy was Artemis and Drizzt becoming closer and moving them both to more grey area instead of keeping Drizzt a goodie two shoes(At first anyways....Gauntlgrym was the best book Bob wrote in years, but Drizzt reverted to goodie goodie quickly after Art showed up). Bringing the companions back to life was an error. I said it then and I stand by that.
Was more interesting seeing Grey area Drizzt.
For a guy who claims he hates reincarnation, Bob literally reincarnated every character, made Pwent available via summon, and took his series in a predictable direction again.
Yeah, but he never intended to kill them. He was forced to because WOTC came up with the brilliant idea of the 100 year time jump. So after being completely taken off course with his story, he leaped at the chance to return to telling it the way he wants to. |
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Schreckstoff
Seeker
53 Posts |
Posted - 07 Nov 2015 : 06:03:55
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quote:
Originally posted by Firestorm
The only good part about that trilogy was Artemis and Drizzt becoming closer and moving them both to more grey area instead of keeping Drizzt a goodie two shoes(At first anyways....Gauntlgrym was the best book Bob wrote in years, but Drizzt reverted to goodie goodie quickly after Art showed up). Bringing the companions back to life was an error. I said it then and I stand by that.
Was more interesting seeing Grey area Drizzt.
For a guy who claims he hates reincarnation, Bob literally reincarnated every character, made Pwent available via summon, and took his series in a predictable direction again.
Disagree, Artemis inclusion in the Neverwinter books was the worst part about them. It didn’t bring anything new to the table, they fought alongside before, they hated each other before and they came to terms before.
Artemis wasn’t even moved to more grey areas, he was in love before and he didn’t do anything because of goodwill in the books.
Drizzt never stopped being goodie, goodie. Unless you count sleeping with someone that isn’t Cattie and becoming jealous because of a sentient sword as a grey area.
I also don’t understand how people can still hold it against Drizzt for being a goodie two shoes, that’s what he’s been for what 25 years now? I’m a much bigger fan of morally grey characters myself, though not of Artemis, but that doesn’t make Drizzt’s character bad.
Bringing back the companions was necessary unless Drizzt would just up and leave the sword coast for a whole new setting far away from all the baggage. That it wouldn't work out with Dahlia was clear from the start that, the group he was building would never hold together as well. Nor was Netheril an opponent Drizzt really gave a **** about.
Not to mention that The Companions was one of the best books RAS has written in decades. |
Complete Drizzt Saga - Check
In love with Farideh's Saga - Check
Disappointed at Erevis' Saga's apparent end - Check |
Edited by - Schreckstoff on 07 Nov 2015 06:08:14 |
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader
USA
2708 Posts |
Posted - 07 Nov 2015 : 18:36:25
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| Gauntlgrym was my least favorite book in the Drizzt novels. The only good thing about it was Jarlaxle and the appearance of Valas Hune. I'm glad the Companions are back. I honestly don't know how much more of the Drizzt-Dahlia story I could handle. |
Sweet water and light laughter |
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Firestorm
Senior Scribe
Canada
826 Posts |
Posted - 10 Nov 2015 : 09:21:10
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quote:
Originally posted by Schreckstoff
quote:
Originally posted by Firestorm
The only good part about that trilogy was Artemis and Drizzt becoming closer and moving them both to more grey area instead of keeping Drizzt a goodie two shoes(At first anyways....Gauntlgrym was the best book Bob wrote in years, but Drizzt reverted to goodie goodie quickly after Art showed up). Bringing the companions back to life was an error. I said it then and I stand by that.
Was more interesting seeing Grey area Drizzt.
For a guy who claims he hates reincarnation, Bob literally reincarnated every character, made Pwent available via summon, and took his series in a predictable direction again.
Disagree, Artemis inclusion in the Neverwinter books was the worst part about them. It didn’t bring anything new to the table, they fought alongside before, they hated each other before and they came to terms before.
Artemis wasn’t even moved to more grey areas, he was in love before and he didn’t do anything because of goodwill in the books.
Drizzt never stopped being goodie, goodie. Unless you count sleeping with someone that isn’t Cattie and becoming jealous because of a sentient sword as a grey area.
I also don’t understand how people can still hold it against Drizzt for being a goodie two shoes, that’s what he’s been for what 25 years now? I’m a much bigger fan of morally grey characters myself, though not of Artemis, but that doesn’t make Drizzt’s character bad.
Bringing back the companions was necessary unless Drizzt would just up and leave the sword coast for a whole new setting far away from all the baggage. That it wouldn't work out with Dahlia was clear from the start that, the group he was building would never hold together as well. Nor was Netheril an opponent Drizzt really gave a **** about.
Not to mention that The Companions was one of the best books RAS has written in decades.
Artemis has not seen or been around Drizzt since turning to a more grey area. Drizzt turning to a more grey area made him fresh instead of same old same old.
Drizzt is basically Hulk hogan in 1995. We have seen it all before, and he is now getting booed by the fans. Nobody cares about Hulkamania anymore and we hear chants of Hogan sucks. His heel turn was epic in 96 and saved the business and his career and that direction is where Drizzt should have gone.
That's how I felt about Drizzt in Gauntlgrym(Mind you, he went back to being goodie goodie right after Art showed up, so it ruined the effect). Bruenor/Pwent dying was appropriate, and RA Salvatore should NEVER have brought the companions back to life.
I did get bored after Gauntlgrym during that series in all areas except seeing him and Art getting closer. Salvatore has no idea how to write shades and made them look boring, but at least it was low level bottom barrel shades |
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Schreckstoff
Seeker
53 Posts |
Posted - 10 Nov 2015 : 12:02:54
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quote:
Originally posted by Firestorm
Artemis has not seen or been around Drizzt since turning to a more grey area. Drizzt turning to a more grey area made him fresh instead of same old same old.
Drizzt is basically Hulk hogan in 1995. We have seen it all before, and he is now getting booed by the fans. Nobody cares about Hulkamania anymore and we hear chants of Hogan sucks. His heel turn was epic in 96 and saved the business and his career and that direction is where Drizzt should have gone.
That's how I felt about Drizzt in Gauntlgrym(Mind you, he went back to being goodie goodie right after Art showed up, so it ruined the effect). Bruenor/Pwent dying was appropriate, and RA Salvatore should NEVER have brought the companions back to life.
I did get bored after Gauntlgrym during that series in all areas except seeing him and Art getting closer. Salvatore has no idea how to write shades and made them look boring, but at least it was low level bottom barrel shades
What grey area, what did Drizzt do that wasn’t up to his moral standards he had followed for more than a century?
And your Hogan comparison really does nothing for me, wrestling is dumb imo and Hulk Hogan always was. The Neverwinter cycle was new, there’s nothing wrong with new but it’s also not immediately better than what worked before. The 3 books after Gauntlgrym were too mundane and you hating the revival of the gang while not being bothered by keeping Artemis alive is just a bit asinine.
The interaction between Drizzt and Artemis weren’t interesting they were same old, same old.
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Complete Drizzt Saga - Check
In love with Farideh's Saga - Check
Disappointed at Erevis' Saga's apparent end - Check |
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Firestorm
Senior Scribe
Canada
826 Posts |
Posted - 11 Nov 2015 : 02:09:42
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quote:
Originally posted by Schreckstoff
quote:
Originally posted by Firestorm
Artemis has not seen or been around Drizzt since turning to a more grey area. Drizzt turning to a more grey area made him fresh instead of same old same old.
Drizzt is basically Hulk hogan in 1995. We have seen it all before, and he is now getting booed by the fans. Nobody cares about Hulkamania anymore and we hear chants of Hogan sucks. His heel turn was epic in 96 and saved the business and his career and that direction is where Drizzt should have gone.
That's how I felt about Drizzt in Gauntlgrym(Mind you, he went back to being goodie goodie right after Art showed up, so it ruined the effect). Bruenor/Pwent dying was appropriate, and RA Salvatore should NEVER have brought the companions back to life.
I did get bored after Gauntlgrym during that series in all areas except seeing him and Art getting closer. Salvatore has no idea how to write shades and made them look boring, but at least it was low level bottom barrel shades
What grey area, what did Drizzt do that wasn’t up to his moral standards he had followed for more than a century?
And your Hogan comparison really does nothing for me, wrestling is dumb imo and Hulk Hogan always was. The Neverwinter cycle was new, there’s nothing wrong with new but it’s also not immediately better than what worked before. The 3 books after Gauntlgrym were too mundane and you hating the revival of the gang while not being bothered by keeping Artemis alive is just a bit asinine.
The interaction between Drizzt and Artemis weren’t interesting they were same old, same old.
An angrier less merciful/reasonable Drizzt brutally slaughtering enemies instead of trying to incapacitate them? Even Jarlaxle was taken aback by it all. He had not crossed the line yet, but was close.
Drizzt and Artemis interacting was same old same old? I must have missed it in the old books when they hung out together like comrades eh? Oh wait, it never had happened before. The fighting descriptions was same old same old, but their interactions were on a level they had never had a chance at before.
I could care less how dumb wrestling is. The point of it was simple. The heroic good guy got boring and was eventually booed by the crowd even when trying to be a good guy until he made changes to his character to freshen things up.
Which is where they should have gone with Drizzt. Drizzt is old hat now. Boring as they come, as are the companions. The Drow interactions in Menzo is the thing keeping it going, not the companions. Catti Brie is getting a new character direction, but unfortunately, like every character, she is getting ultimate Mary Sue bonuses.
I want to see some of them die and stay dead forever. |
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Paran
Acolyte
18 Posts |
Posted - 11 Nov 2015 : 02:42:43
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| Drizzt could use some moments like in The Lone Drow. But in small doses, otherwise it will get redundant. I prefer Drizzt how he is. I don't want him to go full ''Nothing personell kid''. |
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First thoughts on Salvatore's Archmage
