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sno4wy
Senior Scribe

USA
466 Posts

Posted - 17 Sep 2015 :  17:38:09  Show Profile Send sno4wy a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:

I'm confused that people think it could be anyone besides Entreri. What other humans have we ever seen in the company of Bregan Daerthe? Sharlotta Vespers and Morik the Rogue served them for a while, but Rai Guy roasted poor Sharlotta (literally!) and I would imagine that Morik is long dead. Calihye was forced into service by Kimmuriel, but I would imagine that she is long dead also.



But why would Entreri be interested in the fate of Doum'wielle? Is he even aware of her existence? Furthermore, there's a lot of unresolved stuff between Jarlaxle and Entreri, such that I doubt that Entreri would willingly accompany Beniago to see Jarlaxle. If it does turn out to be Entreri and Salvatore just decided to tackle the resolution of their issues by making references to it happening rather than writing it out, that'd be a rather cheap card to play.
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Lilianviaten
Senior Scribe

489 Posts

Posted - 17 Sep 2015 :  19:01:30  Show Profile Send Lilianviaten a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by sno4wy

quote:

I'm confused that people think it could be anyone besides Entreri. What other humans have we ever seen in the company of Bregan Daerthe? Sharlotta Vespers and Morik the Rogue served them for a while, but Rai Guy roasted poor Sharlotta (literally!) and I would imagine that Morik is long dead. Calihye was forced into service by Kimmuriel, but I would imagine that she is long dead also.



But why would Entreri be interested in the fate of Doum'wielle? Is he even aware of her existence? Furthermore, there's a lot of unresolved stuff between Jarlaxle and Entreri, such that I doubt that Entreri would willingly accompany Beniago to see Jarlaxle. If it does turn out to be Entreri and Salvatore just decided to tackle the resolution of their issues by making references to it happening rather than writing it out, that'd be a rather cheap card to play.





Good point, but remember that we have learned little to nothing about Entreri lately. We know that he was enslaved by the Netherese after they came for the sword Charon's Claw. And we still don't know a LOT about that story, such as how the sword was capable of enslaving him, why the Netherese were so interested in Entreri (Alegni said that he was forbidden by the Princes to permanently destroy Entreri), and whether Jarlaxle or Entreri's memories of that event can even be trusted.

Since then, we know that he was freed from his enslavement when Dahlia killed Alegni and Charon's Claw was left on the rim of the primordial pit (but likely not destroyed). He was captured by Draygo Quick while sieging his castle, but eventually rescued by Jarlaxle. Then we know that he was captured by the drow in Gauntlgrym, and eventually escaped due to both Drizzt and Co.'s intervention and his own cleverness. We're told none of his whereabouts since he murdered the Xorlarrin priestess. It's been a long time since then, storyline wise, so it's likely that Bregan Daerthe has located him again.

Thinking back, does anyone know what the point of the illithids was in The Last Threshold? It seemed like Bregan Daerthe had enough firepower to overtake Draygo's forces alone, but Kimmuriel brought a bunch of illithids with him to rescue Drizzt. Kimmuriel also told Draygo that his discussions with the Elder Brain had yielded important answers for the Shadovar about the Sundering. But are we ever told what the illithids supposedly knew, and how that information was useful?
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader

USA
2708 Posts

Posted - 17 Sep 2015 :  22:02:45  Show Profile Send CorellonsDevout a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I'm surprised I missed that reference to a human accompanying Beniago. I'm going to have to go back and reread that part. I wouldn't mind seeing Entreri again, but I too wonder why he would be with anyonr associated with BD, especially since he and Jarlaxle didn't part on the best of terms.

Sweet water and light laughter
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Seravin
Master of Realmslore

Canada
1265 Posts

Posted - 18 Sep 2015 :  01:41:43  Show Profile Send Seravin a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Assuming the illithids were brought along to take out Draygo himself; BD could match his forces maybe but not him. Kimmuriel is a good counter to most mages with his psionics but why not bring backup?
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Merrith
Learned Scribe

135 Posts

Posted - 18 Sep 2015 :  20:29:59  Show Profile  Visit Merrith's Homepage Send Merrith a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Lilianviaten

quote:
Originally posted by sno4wy

quote:

I'm confused that people think it could be anyone besides Entreri. What other humans have we ever seen in the company of Bregan Daerthe? Sharlotta Vespers and Morik the Rogue served them for a while, but Rai Guy roasted poor Sharlotta (literally!) and I would imagine that Morik is long dead. Calihye was forced into service by Kimmuriel, but I would imagine that she is long dead also.



But why would Entreri be interested in the fate of Doum'wielle? Is he even aware of her existence? Furthermore, there's a lot of unresolved stuff between Jarlaxle and Entreri, such that I doubt that Entreri would willingly accompany Beniago to see Jarlaxle. If it does turn out to be Entreri and Salvatore just decided to tackle the resolution of their issues by making references to it happening rather than writing it out, that'd be a rather cheap card to play.





Good point, but remember that we have learned little to nothing about Entreri lately. We know that he was enslaved by the Netherese after they came for the sword Charon's Claw. And we still don't know a LOT about that story, such as how the sword was capable of enslaving him, why the Netherese were so interested in Entreri (Alegni said that he was forbidden by the Princes to permanently destroy Entreri), and whether Jarlaxle or Entreri's memories of that event can even be trusted.

Since then, we know that he was freed from his enslavement when Dahlia killed Alegni and Charon's Claw was left on the rim of the primordial pit (but likely not destroyed). He was captured by Draygo Quick while sieging his castle, but eventually rescued by Jarlaxle. Then we know that he was captured by the drow in Gauntlgrym, and eventually escaped due to both Drizzt and Co.'s intervention and his own cleverness. We're told none of his whereabouts since he murdered the Xorlarrin priestess. It's been a long time since then, storyline wise, so it's likely that Bregan Daerthe has located him again.

Thinking back, does anyone know what the point of the illithids was in The Last Threshold? It seemed like Bregan Daerthe had enough firepower to overtake Draygo's forces alone, but Kimmuriel brought a bunch of illithids with him to rescue Drizzt. Kimmuriel also told Draygo that his discussions with the Elder Brain had yielded important answers for the Shadovar about the Sundering. But are we ever told what the illithids supposedly knew, and how that information was useful?



I thought it was virtually certain that Charon's Claw was destroyed? Last Threshold even has comments between Parise and Draygo about the loss of the sword and that Draygo would likely have to answer for it in some way.

The nebulous info the illithids had I assumed had to do with the Sundering being somewhat imminent, and the Shadowfell not being as closely connected to Toril, but that's just speculation on my part. The way it was kind of discarded afterwards makes me think whatever it was pertaining to is already past, but who knows.

The obvious reasoning for it being Entreri was his growing concern/affection for Dahlia is a comment made by Kimmuriel after the meeting with "the human" where he states "We don't need her at all...Our excitable friend believes that since she, too, is darthiir, she will ultimately lead us where he desires to go."

To me, that clearly indicates it's Entreri and that he think Doum'wielle's fate and heritage could in some way link to Dahlia. I'm not sure how exactly, but Jarlaxle is mentioned having some future plays in motion with why he wants to find/protect Doum'wielle, even after Gromph sends her in the middle of nowhere in the Spine of the World.
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sno4wy
Senior Scribe

USA
466 Posts

Posted - 18 Sep 2015 :  23:35:32  Show Profile Send sno4wy a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Merrith
To me, that clearly indicates it's Entreri and that he think Doum'wielle's fate and heritage could in some way link to Dahlia. I'm not sure how exactly, but Jarlaxle is mentioned having some future plays in motion with why he wants to find/protect Doum'wielle, even after Gromph sends her in the middle of nowhere in the Spine of the World.



Entreri thinks Dahlia is dead, last we heard anyway. It'll just be yet another thing that Bob would be having happened behind the scenes rather than writing it out as far as Entreri is concerned. : As much as I love the character, I'm hoping it isn't Entreri, as we already miss so much of his experiences, and we only hear about them afterwards. Ah well, I suppose time will tell.
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RK
Acolyte

8 Posts

Posted - 21 Sep 2015 :  07:21:19  Show Profile Send RK a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Couple thoughts:

In "Night of the Hunter", Gromph spent some time staring at Entreri while he was hung in the cage. Tells me he had already formulated some sort of plan...or knew of one already in existence. My thoughts are that Jarlaxle and Entreri have already had the talk that Jarlaxle wanted in "The Last Threshold", and that Entreri is willing to work with Jarlaxle...at least to get what he wants, which Jarlaxle is likely willing to provide. My money also says that Effron is with Artemis and Bregan D'aerthe as of "Archmage."

As for Lolth's goals, I believe that, in order for her to truly establish chaos in Menzoberranzan, Gromph Baenre has to go. Losing the weave highlights that Gromph is largely beyond her power, something that she is not willing to have in her city. She's probably upset that Gromph also not only ended the Darkening, but ensured credit went to Drizzt and Mielikki, something that would have been truly insulting at that point.

Also, a question: Gromph refers to Khazid'hea as "a Baenre blade." I thought it was forged outside of Menzoberranzan. Didn't the Menzo box set establish that? Hard to call Khazid'hea a Baenre blade just because Dantrag wielded it.

Want to learn how to make $50,000 in the first month? Me too.
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Madpig
Learned Scribe

Finland
148 Posts

Posted - 21 Sep 2015 :  13:26:25  Show Profile Send Madpig a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by RK

Couple thoughts:

Also, a question: Gromph refers to Khazid'hea as "a Baenre blade." I thought it was forged outside of Menzoberranzan. Didn't the Menzo box set establish that? Hard to call Khazid'hea a Baenre blade just because Dantrag wielded it.



I think that line of thought is based on Drow trait of possessiviness. Nothing special about that I think.
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Mirtek
Senior Scribe

595 Posts

Posted - 21 Sep 2015 :  22:51:17  Show Profile Send Mirtek a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Lilianviaten

Gromph is royally pissed, Kimmuriel is royally pissed,


Well, at lest Gromph was in the last chapter


As for Lolth goals, they're hinted at at the very end of the adventure. Highlight to read spoiler

The adventure suggest that one way to continue would be for the PCs to confront Lolth in the Abyss. Doing so they encounter her swollen with eggs from which she wanted to hatch a new generation of demonlords that would obey her as their mother. She wanted the demonlords out to play so her spawn could hatch and size controll before they returned. So Menzo seems to be totally expendable if the prize is becoming the queen of the Abyss

Edited by - Mirtek on 21 Sep 2015 23:01:19
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Irennan
Great Reader

Italy
3802 Posts

Posted - 21 Sep 2015 :  23:07:00  Show Profile Send Irennan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Mirtek

As for Lolth goal's, they're hinted at at the very end of the adventure. Highlight to read spoiler

The adventure suggest that one way to continue would be for the PCs to confront Lolth in the Abyss. Doing so they encounter her swollen with eggs from which she wanted to hatch a new generation of demonlords that would obey her as their mother. She wanted the demonlords out to play so her spawn could hatch and size controll before they returned. So Menzo seems to be totally expendable if the prize is becoming the queen of the Abyss




Uhm, how is that supposed to play out? Spoiler: If her intention is to replace only the demon lords that invaded Faerun, then she would only control 8(?) layers of the Abyss. And the place has infinite layers IIRC, so she would hardly be a ''Queen''. If she wanted to place one servant demon lord per layer (and therefore become an actual Queen), then the thing would become a bit ridculous: how would she spawn infinite demon lords, or a large number of them (and creating 8 demon lords is a task that requires a huge investment of power, even for a deity, does Lolth have all that power to spare?). Also, the fact that the players can confront Lolth means that she is a lesser goddess now (according to the 5e DMG), implying that the attempt to take over the Weave costed her a lot (and therefore making the creation of various demon lords-level beings even more strange), or that she put so many resources into those servant demon lords that she went from greater to lesser. If that were the case, and if her plan were to fail, she would permanently lose all that she conquered over millennia. That would also put her on equal footing to Eilistraee and Vhaeraun (assuming that they are still lesser powers and not archfey/demipowers), and way down Corellon. I don't see this as a clever gamble.

Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things.

Edited by - Irennan on 21 Sep 2015 23:14:03
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Mirtek
Senior Scribe

595 Posts

Posted - 21 Sep 2015 :  23:24:20  Show Profile Send Mirtek a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I guess we have to wait for the next Drizzt novel to learn more. It's just only a few sentences at the end of the epilogue of the adventure at the moment. Just if they go to the Abyss, that's what they'll find there. The DM has to fill out the rest until we get more novels

It seems that the Abyss in 5e is envisioned a lot smaller than we used to think of it. During the Archmage Gromph identifies a particular nalfeshnee on sight and it's stated that he's able to do that, because he knows all nalfeshnee in existance.

So the 5e vision of the abyss might be quite finite and thus placing the right pawns in the right positions might be enough. Or her plot is simply to have her spawn become the new most powerful 8 and thus her new council of nine whith her at the head is powerful enough that all other minor lords would fall in line or be destroyed

Edited by - Mirtek on 21 Sep 2015 23:25:55
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Irennan
Great Reader

Italy
3802 Posts

Posted - 21 Sep 2015 :  23:32:09  Show Profile Send Irennan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Mirtek

It seems that the Abyss in 5e is envisioned a lot smaller than we used to think of it. During the Archmage Gromph identifies a particular nalfeshnee on sight and it's stated that he's able to do that, because he knows all nalfeshnee in existance.

So the 5e vision of the abyss might be quite finite and thus placing the right pawns in the right positions might be enough. Or her plot is simply to have her spawn become the new most powerful 8 and thus her new council of nine whith her at the head is powerful enough that all other minor lords would fall in line or be destroyed




Oh, I see. Spoiler: Still, her creating 8 demon lords, reducing herself to lesser power, seems quite extreme and dangerous as a gamble... And we kinda know that she'll fail, as WotC isn't letting the demon lords go anywhere.

Thanks for the info.

Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things.

Edited by - Irennan on 21 Sep 2015 23:32:23
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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore

Australia
6638 Posts

Posted - 22 Sep 2015 :  00:52:32  Show Profile Send George Krashos a Private Message  Reply with Quote
That's a very 1E DMG take on Type IV demons by Salvatore. Not quite consistent with how things have developed for the Lower Planes since 1979, but I've always been of the view that the Realms has its own cosmology and never subscribed to the notion that Planescape determines what occurs when I travel the planes in a FR setting.

-- George Krashos

"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus

Edited by - George Krashos on 22 Sep 2015 00:52:57
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Lilianviaten
Senior Scribe

489 Posts

Posted - 22 Sep 2015 :  04:31:32  Show Profile Send Lilianviaten a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Mirtek

quote:
Originally posted by Lilianviaten

Gromph is royally pissed, Kimmuriel is royally pissed,


Well, at lest Gromph was in the last chapter


As for Lolth goals, they're hinted at at the very end of the adventure. Highlight to read spoiler

The adventure suggest that one way to continue would be for the PCs to confront Lolth in the Abyss. Doing so they encounter her swollen with eggs from which she wanted to hatch a new generation of demonlords that would obey her as their mother. She wanted the demonlords out to play so her spawn could hatch and size controll before they returned. So Menzo seems to be totally expendable if the prize is becoming the queen of the Abyss






SPOILERS
SPOILERS







I'm going to need RAS or somebody to explain that in greater detail. It's not making sense to me for a few reasons:

1) If Lolth wanted absolute control of the Abyss, why would she not have seized it when she became a Greater God? Instead, she pulled the Demonweb Pits away from the Abyss so she could have her own realm. When Asmodeus became a Greater God in 4e, it was made clear that his reign was absolute.

2) Lolth isn't dumb enough to assume that her children would be loyal to her. Creatures born in the Abyss, spawned from a goddess of treachery, are incapable of loyalty. In fact, Lolth would be disappointed if they weren't treacherous.

3) How long does Lolth think she has? A crisis as big as demon lords invading Faerun (even the Underdark) will draw a lot of powerful forces down there to contain the damage. Likely, some magic will be found that will send them back within a matter of months. That's not nearly enough time for new demon lords to completely usurp each layer.

4) If Lolth makes the new demon lords powerful enough to actually defeat Demogorgon, Orcus, etc. upon their return, she would have to sacrifice a LOT of her power to do it. And if she has that much power to spare, it begs the question of why she didn't simply destroy the demon lords herself. This plan is ridiculous.
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader

USA
2708 Posts

Posted - 22 Sep 2015 :  04:43:37  Show Profile Send CorellonsDevout a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I think Lolth is using others (such as Errtu) ans mortals (like Gromph) to achieve her ends. For one, she is a creature of chaos, so I'm sure demons running rampant is quite pleasing to her. But the whole spawning thing...really? As others have pointed out, that would take a lot of energy, and if Lolth failed to take over the Weave, how can she expect to take position as Lord (Lady?) of thr Hells? Lolth is a conniving, evil thing, but she isn't stupid. I don't see why she would make such a move, so yeah, I agree with the above statements.

Sweet water and light laughter
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Irennan
Great Reader

Italy
3802 Posts

Posted - 22 Sep 2015 :  05:05:36  Show Profile Send Irennan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by CorellonsDevout

I think Lolth is using others (such as Errtu) ans mortals (like Gromph) to achieve her ends. For one, she is a creature of chaos, so I'm sure demons running rampant is quite pleasing to her. But the whole spawning thing...really? As others have pointed out, that would take a lot of energy, and if Lolth failed to take over the Weave, how can she expect to take position as Lord (Lady?) of thr Hells? Lolth is a conniving, evil thing, but she isn't stupid. I don't see why she would make such a move, so yeah, I agree with the above statements.



Such a gamble is doubly foolish in a situation where her enemies have just re-emerged. But we know that probably no one will take action, beyond the characters involved in RAS' story. Just like it is almost a given that Lolth will fail.

Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things.
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Mirtek
Senior Scribe

595 Posts

Posted - 22 Sep 2015 :  16:28:33  Show Profile Send Mirtek a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos

That's a very 1E DMG take on Type IV demons by Salvatore.
Indeed. Iconic names for the different demon types make an appearance. The nalfeshnee that Groomph immediately recognizes is Bilwhr and later Nalfeshnee himself makes an appearance (as do Marilith and Balor)
quote:
Originally posted by Lilianviaten

1) If Lolth wanted absolute control of the Abyss, why would she not have seized it when she became a Greater God? Instead, she pulled the Demonweb Pits away from the Abyss so she could have her own realm. When Asmodeus became a Greater God in 4e, it was made clear that his reign was absolute.
It seems as if the archfiends in 5e are once again treated as godlike entities and not as groveling before demigods.

When he learns that Demogorgon is on the loose Jarlaxe is terrified as he knows him as a beast that Lolth herself would not challenge in battle. Of course he could simply be wrong or could mean it is as Lolth prefering rather not to have to battle him, since even if this would end with her standing wounded grievously but victorious over his shattered essence there would immediately be gates poping open all around her and Grazzt, Orcus and co pouncing on her wounded self


PS: When I am back at my book I'll post the exact paragraph about what she's up to in the Abyss, but don't get to excited it's really not that long.

Edited by - Mirtek on 22 Sep 2015 16:29:16
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Irennan
Great Reader

Italy
3802 Posts

Posted - 22 Sep 2015 :  16:33:38  Show Profile Send Irennan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Mirtek

When he learns that Demogorgon is on the loose Jarlaxe is terrified as he knows him as a beast that Lolth herself would not challenge in battle. Of course he could simply be wrong or could mean it is as Lolth prefering rather not to have to battle him, since even if this would end with her standing wounded grievously but victorious over his shattered essence there would immediately be gates poping open all around her and Grazzt, Orcus and co pouncing on her wounded self




Well, if that were case, given that Demogorgon has stats, Greater gods would really be underwhelming to be ''cosmic forces'' (especially given that, AFAIK, the 5e DMG says that Greater Powers cannot be met/faced by mortals. They can only do that with Lesser ones).

IMO, they're exaggerating with the ever escalating levels of threat, at some point even greater gods will be a joke. It feels cheap (to me, at least).

Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things.
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Mirtek
Senior Scribe

595 Posts

Posted - 22 Sep 2015 :  19:41:03  Show Profile Send Mirtek a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Irennan

quote:
Originally posted by Mirtek

When he learns that Demogorgon is on the loose Jarlaxe is terrified as he knows him as a beast that Lolth herself would not challenge in battle. Of course he could simply be wrong or could mean it is as Lolth prefering rather not to have to battle him, since even if this would end with her standing wounded grievously but victorious over his shattered essence there would immediately be gates poping open all around her and Grazzt, Orcus and co pouncing on her wounded self




Well, if that were case, given that Demogorgon has stats, Greater gods would really be underwhelming to be ''cosmic forces'' (especially given that, AFAIK, the 5e DMG says that Greater Powers cannot be met/faced by mortals. They can only do that with Lesser ones).

IMO, they're exaggerating with the ever escalating levels of threat, at some point even greater gods will be a joke. It feels cheap (to me, at least).
Maybe she no longer is considered a greater deity (would fit then, as a CR30 lesser deity would have to chew on a CR26 Demogorgon for some time even while ending victorious at the end) or Jarlaxe is simply wrong (when did he become an expert on the exact powerlevels of cosmic entities in relation to each other?)

Anyway, here the paragraph from OotA:

quote:
Originally posted by Out of the Abyss, page 220

Into the Abyss

Ambitious adventurers might decide to take the fight to Lolth, seeking to punish her for what she unleashed on the Material Plane and to undo whatever her scheme might have gained her. Vizeran will be inclined to help them find a way to reach the Demonweb (Lolth's layer of the Abyss), since the drow archmage hates the Demon Queen of Spiders and her subjugation of his race.

As they travel through the Abyss, the characters might discover that the demon lords they defeated in the Underdark are potential allies in this new quest. Those demon lords want their own revenge on Lolth for her scheme, and it might suit their mad whims to use the adventurers as their agents to achieve it.

If and when the characters confront Lolth, they find her pregnant and surrounded by thousands of eggs - her unborn young. When the eggs hatch, the Demon Queen of Spiders plans to send her offspring throughout the Abyss, creating a new generation of demon lords under her sway. How the heroes thwart Lolth's mad scheme remains to be seen!



seems I missremembered the scope of her plan

Edited by - Mirtek on 22 Sep 2015 19:45:18
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader

United Kingdom
6350 Posts

Posted - 22 Sep 2015 :  19:43:58  Show Profile Send Gary Dallison a Private Message  Reply with Quote
These story lines make me laugh so much. Who comes up with the original ideas?

I vaguely recall something about the armies of the seven heavens marching on the abyss and not conquering the entire thing.

Grazzt owns 3 layers and has never managed to defeat either of his two arch rivals.

Nevermind that in my mind a ruler of a layer of the abyss is as powerful as a god (as long as he remains on that layer) and so why would one of them bother to leave (they've certainly never bothered before), never mind 8 at once. I don't care if an archmage cast a spell to summon them, it took another demonlord and an entire nation to get Eltab from his layer, and that went so horribly wrong that its still screwing up faerun to this day (post spellplague excluded).

Summoning 1 demon lord should therefore be next to impossible (and probably require at least their true name), summoning 8 of them should never even be conceived of in fiction.

Even then, just because the demonlord is gone, doesn't mean the near infinite number of fiends at their disposal are also gone. Eltab's layer was still controlled by one of his lieutenant balor even after a several hundred years of his absence.

I'm pretty sure the abyss itself would rebel against any attempt to have one creature rule over more than a portion of it. Lolth of all creatures should understand that since I'm pretty sure I read somewhere that her own plane has been fighting against her for ages (because she is not native to the abyss, or at least wasn't native to the abyss, she might be now).

I'm so glad I don't invest in 5e, I cant wait for it to be over.


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Mirtek
Senior Scribe

595 Posts

Posted - 22 Sep 2015 :  19:48:52  Show Profile Send Mirtek a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by dazzlerdal

Summoning 1 demon lord should therefore be next to impossible (and probably require at least their true name), summoning 8 of them should never even be conceived of in fiction.
well, Gromph never intended to summon even one, he was performing a spell that was secretly implanted in his mind by Kimmuriel over many sessions.

Kimmuriel also never intended to have Gromph summoning even one of them, he thought he had received the spell from his mother and that it would free her. However it was Lolth who gave him the spell

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Gary Dallison
Great Reader

United Kingdom
6350 Posts

Posted - 22 Sep 2015 :  19:57:36  Show Profile Send Gary Dallison a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Intended to or not, that's still one world ending wild magic screw up.

Stuff like this shouldn't be thrown around without forethought.

As I mentioned before. Eltab's summoning totally screwed large portions of Faerun for possibly eternity. His plane is now partially bonded to places all over the Unapproachable East, and those bits probably disgorge fiendish creatures all the time.

It should have far reaching consequences that affect entire regions for centuries. Not just 8 demonlords summoned, they have a fight, stuff gets wrecked, then magic puts it back together.

The drow in Menzo should be horribly twisted by the energies unleashed. That big stalagtite would make a great demon infused earth node that twists magic around it.


Demon Lords, like Elemental Princes, and Arch Devils, are not just your average run of the mill enemies. They are supremely powerful beings tied intimately with and infused by the ancient energies of the multiverse. They are probably more ancient than anything else in existence and so cannot be tricked by a mere mortal.

Just because some mook summons them to the Material Plane doesn't mean they shouldn't be able to snap their fingers and return home again. Eltab was summoned and bound thanks to the efforts of one of his rivals. It was a monumental task that fundamentally altered a huge portion of Faerun and spelled the doom of 2 nations (and the birth of another).

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Mirtek
Senior Scribe

595 Posts

Posted - 22 Sep 2015 :  20:09:40  Show Profile Send Mirtek a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by dazzlerdal

Intended to or not, that's still one world ending wild magic screw up.
You've read the spoiler part?
quote:
Originally posted by dazzlerdal

so cannot be tricked by a mere mortal.

Just because some mook summons them to the Material Plane doesn't mean they shouldn't be able to snap their fingers and return home again.

The point is that they were aching to still their hunger on the mortal coil and fighting teeth and claws to extend their trip as long as possible and not be send back. For them it was a once a milenium opportunity as long as they didn't catch what was happening in their absence
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader

United Kingdom
6350 Posts

Posted - 22 Sep 2015 :  20:21:59  Show Profile Send Gary Dallison a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Well I don't buy it (and indeed wont).

Aching hunger or not, it doesn't fit the way all of these beings have been portrayed in the past(demogorgon maybe but he is a creature of instinct). I'm not a being of supra intelligence, but just because I get hungry doesn't mean I satiate that hunger, especially not when my house is at risk of being bulldozed by the bank while I'm off having lunch.

Maybe my interpretation of the past lore of demonlords is wrong, but for me you don't get to be ruler of an entire layer by being stupid (unless you are far stronger than anything else to balance out your stupid).

I'm sure RAS has done the best with what he was given, as all writers try to do. This storyline should never have come to pass though.

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Edited by - Gary Dallison on 22 Sep 2015 20:22:27
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jordanz
Senior Scribe

553 Posts

Posted - 03 Oct 2015 :  00:19:04  Show Profile  Visit jordanz's Homepage Send jordanz a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Joran Nobleheart

When it comes to Forgotten Realms authors, I feel that Elaine Cunningham is the best that I've read. I feel that Richard Baker is a great game designer, but shouldn't touch novels. Especially based off of The Last Mythal books. His disregard of lore that has been established is staggering, and the way he wrote the characters are just frustrating and hollow. I kept wanting someone to kill Fflar, to be honest. It's weird, reading a series on elves and finding myself cheering for the bad guys...



Wow, the last Mythal series was my favorite right behind the "Unholy" book. I like RA as well because really I cant put any writers over him when it comes to delivering consistent entertainment. Greenwood is too convoluted for me..his best writing comes in brief stretches and when it's on it's really on..but the in between parts are not good IMO.
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader

USA
2708 Posts

Posted - 03 Oct 2015 :  00:23:08  Show Profile Send CorellonsDevout a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I really enjoyed the Last Mythal books, myself. In fact, I enjoyed all the FR books I read by Richard Baker. Cunningham is also an FR favorite of mine.

Sweet water and light laughter
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jordanz
Senior Scribe

553 Posts

Posted - 03 Oct 2015 :  00:23:24  Show Profile  Visit jordanz's Homepage Send jordanz a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by sno4wy

I'm a bit over halfway through, and I just had to stop, despite setting aside a whole day to read it. It's disgusting how Mary Sue Catti-brie is becoming, and how contrived the method he uses to gear her up. I mean, even had I not seen him mention a Catti vs Gromph encounter in Maestro, I would've guessed something like that. =_= With these novels, it's really starting to feel more and more like, whenever someone shows up with a cool item, it might take a few books, but don't you doubt it, it's going to be in the hands of Drizzt & co. Predictable story arcs are predictable, and repetitive. ._.



Well I havent read Archmage yet but I like that Ra is bring up the weak links . You have to love what he's done with Regis. The halfing is no longer useless, now he's quite the opposite. Cat needed to be boosted as well, otherwise she would get stomped out. Granted I havent read Archmage yet...:)
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Aulduron
Learned Scribe

USA
343 Posts

Posted - 03 Oct 2015 :  04:38:03  Show Profile Send Aulduron a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I would think that it is Lolth summoning them, not Gromph. He is just some kind of conduit for her spell. He didn't even know the words he was speaking. It could well have included true names.

"Those with talent become wizards, Those without talent spend their lives praying for it"

-Procopio Septus
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Firestorm
Senior Scribe

Canada
826 Posts

Posted - 08 Oct 2015 :  14:07:47  Show Profile Send Firestorm a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Lilianviaten

quote:
Originally posted by Mirtek

quote:
Originally posted by Lilianviaten

Gromph is royally pissed, Kimmuriel is royally pissed,


Well, at lest Gromph was in the last chapter


As for Lolth goals, they're hinted at at the very end of the adventure. Highlight to read spoiler

The adventure suggest that one way to continue would be for the PCs to confront Lolth in the Abyss. Doing so they encounter her swollen with eggs from which she wanted to hatch a new generation of demonlords that would obey her as their mother. She wanted the demonlords out to play so her spawn could hatch and size controll before they returned. So Menzo seems to be totally expendable if the prize is becoming the queen of the Abyss






SPOILERS
SPOILERS







I'm going to need RAS or somebody to explain that in greater detail. It's not making sense to me for a few reasons:

1) If Lolth wanted absolute control of the Abyss, why would she not have seized it when she became a Greater God? Instead, she pulled the Demonweb Pits away from the Abyss so she could have her own realm. When Asmodeus became a Greater God in 4e, it was made clear that his reign was absolute.

2) Lolth isn't dumb enough to assume that her children would be loyal to her. Creatures born in the Abyss, spawned from a goddess of treachery, are incapable of loyalty. In fact, Lolth would be disappointed if they weren't treacherous.

3) How long does Lolth think she has? A crisis as big as demon lords invading Faerun (even the Underdark) will draw a lot of powerful forces down there to contain the damage. Likely, some magic will be found that will send them back within a matter of months. That's not nearly enough time for new demon lords to completely usurp each layer.

4) If Lolth makes the new demon lords powerful enough to actually defeat Demogorgon, Orcus, etc. upon their return, she would have to sacrifice a LOT of her power to do it. And if she has that much power to spare, it begs the question of why she didn't simply destroy the demon lords herself. This plan is ridiculous.



In fairness, Asmodeus' rule over the nine hells was pretty absolute to begin with even before he became a god. He has ruled it for millions of years. Nobody has ever really ruled the Abyss. At most, a few layers.

What he did after achieving godhood was pinch the entire abyss below the plane of Elemental chaos, thus severing the blood rift(Place where The Hells and Abyss connect) and ending the blood war. Which kinda bugged me. I liked the war between Lawful Evil Devils and Chaotic evil Demons that has been fought for Millennia :(

But effectively, the Devils won.

But I agree, a lot of what is in Archmage confused me. Either they are taking it in a new direction, or wotc needs to force an actual fluent DnD universe Editor to overlook the books and correct errors.

Kind of like when, you know, Robillard defeated a Lich using electricity, something they have 100% immunity from.
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Seravin
Master of Realmslore

Canada
1265 Posts

Posted - 08 Oct 2015 :  15:27:30  Show Profile Send Seravin a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Regarding the Blood War; it never made sense to me that a chaotic army would defeat a lawful one, unless the chaotic one was so powerful that following strategy and commands and a unified fighting force was made moot. Stats wise Demons and Devils were pretty close in power, so I would think infighting and lack of focus would make demons lousy at fighting a real war; while lawful devils would follow orders and act cohesively if they are following their alignment correctly.
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