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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3802 Posts |
 Posted - 07 Sep 2015 : 22:37:26
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quote:
Originally posted by Xelbon Lu nrae
Hi guys,
First post for me. There are a few things referenced in the book that I don't know where to find info on, nor do I really want to read multiple novels of other authors to figure out.
Plainly put:
1) when/how was it announced that the other Drow gods/goddesses were back?
2) when/how did we gain insight that Lolth failed to take over the Weave? Who controls magic now?
If there are some links/cliff notes/wiki topics on this info I'd appreciate it. Otherwise if it is all found in a Greenwood novel, a summary would be great. Hell, maybe I missed it in a previous Salvatore book......
As CD said, Eilistraee has been mentioned in Spellstorm as one of the deities with whom Mystra is currently sharing the Weave, implying that she is active and alive now. Ed Greenwood himself confirmed that she and Vhaeraun are back here: http://forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=19841&whichpage=13#468322
Lolth lost her bet for the Weave when a band of adventurers and Mystra defeated her. The whole Darkening also failed, and concluded in the Drizzt novel before Archmage, AFAIK.
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Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
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Xelbon Lu nrae
Acolyte
2 Posts |
Posted - 07 Sep 2015 : 22:42:48
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quote:
Originally posted by Irennan
quote:
Originally posted by Xelbon Lu nrae
Hi guys,
First post for me. There are a few things referenced in the book that I don't know where to find info on, nor do I really want to read multiple novels of other authors to figure out.
Plainly put:
1) when/how was it announced that the other Drow gods/goddesses were back?
2) when/how did we gain insight that Lolth failed to take over the Weave? Who controls magic now?
If there are some links/cliff notes/wiki topics on this info I'd appreciate it. Otherwise if it is all found in a Greenwood novel, a summary would be great. Hell, maybe I missed it in a previous Salvatore book......
As CD said, Eilistraee has been mentioned in Spellstorm as one of the deities with whom Mystra is currently sharing the Weave, implying that she is active and alive now. Ed Greenwood himself confirmed that she and Vhaeraun are back here: http://forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=19841&whichpage=13#468322
Lolth lost her bet for the Weave when a band of adventurers and Mystra defeated her. The whole Darkening also failed, and concluded in the Drizzt novel before Archmage, AFAIK.
Now we're getting somewhere. Thanks guys! Where was this battle between Lolth and said band of adventurers? |
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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3802 Posts |
Posted - 07 Sep 2015 : 22:44:56
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quote:
Originally posted by Veritas
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Yes, I see. I was aware of that, in my mind I didn't see it worth all that hate/focus on the drow side. Killing a matron or ''royalty'' doesn't get you hated among lolthite drow (at least probably not more than you already are), as they don't care for each other and rejoice in each other's deaths. Quenthel, however, I might see her wanting revenge, and -by extension- the Baenre. I still can't picture other houses spending resources to go after him, though (unless it brought them Lolth's favor. But then, this brings us back to my point: if Lolth wanted to influence the drow in this way, why only Drizzt, with many drow rejecting Lolth or turning to other deities?)
The drow have the pretense of order and civility in their society. The Menzoberranyr "hate" Drizzt (the ones who care at least) not for what he did to the Baenre's personally but because they believe that Lolth demands his death and his actions are a slap in the Spider Queen's face. I do not doubt that the bulk of the city rejoiced at House Baenre getting taken down a peg or two, but vocalizing that publoicly could, to their mind, draw the disfavor of Lolth.
Most of the drow that we see lately don't hate Drizzt. They lust after the prestige they would get for killing him. Not only do they get renown for killing this legendary enemy but they think they may get in the good graces of Lolth and Baenre to boot.
Moreover, if a the Drizzt slayer is a warrior, he catapults himself as being the equal if not superior of past legendary weapon masters of the city. Zaknafein had a degree of respect and standing in the city because he was considered to be the best, or among the best weapon masters of his time, rivalled by Dantrag Baenre and Uthegental Armgo. Drizzt is believed to be Zaknafein's equal and bested Dantrag Baenre.
As for why only Drizzt, its because he's the most notorious outlaw from Menzoberranzan and the drow of Menzoberannzan have been depicted outright to see their city as the center of their world. For those who are even aware of Eilistraee and Vhaerun, they have little to no presence in Menzoberanzan and are a problem for other places. You are entirely right when you point out that Menzo is not the largest drow city but it is the citadel of Lolth's faithful.
Hm, I can see your point.
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Yeah, the fact that Lolth acts with complete disregard for her followers is true. But she is extremely sensitive to her influence/domain being contested, which brings us to Eilistraee and Vhaeraun, and why I think that they are not non-factors to their mother.
Considering the only word we've gotten on Eilistraee is that she was tucked away in the weave and has only recently been manifesting herself to her followers, it could be that the word hasn't gone out yet that she (and Vhaerun) are back in town. That may explain why the drow we have seen so far haven't commented on it. It may just also just mean that Lolth's current agenda is more important to her than the minor drow deities re-appearing.
Perhaps. Even if Eilistraee wasn't hidden in the Weave, more like Mystra was sharing it with Eilistraee, who appears to be diminished in personal power.
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Eilistraee and Vhaeraun, especially if we assume that they could be working together, have a relevant and non neglectable influence on the drow. They can and have brought many of them to forsake Lolth and oppose her. Their ideas expose the flaws in Lolth's brainwashing and show that a different life exists. Their follower base, if combined, is a relevant part of the drow. One would think that Lolth would want to avoid that coming up again. But you're right, we haven't got a novel, or book, or article covering the drow, even if we have got some insight on Lolth's plans with RAS' work, and her apparently being indifferent to her children's return feels weird.
Also, on a side note, to be fair, Lolth did very little to get rid of her children. For some reason, one after the other, every deity of the drow pantheon, out of their own voliton (not tricked by Lolth), went against Eilistraee (and that was even out of character for Vhaeraun, to prioritize her sister over Lolth). Then you had that final scene (in which, again, Lolth did basically nothing) and in which the Masked Lady could have very well survived. Either way, the actions of Eilistraee and Vhaeraun brought many drow away from her (a minority, sure, but still a non neglectable number) and they can do this again, now that they are back. It would be foolish of Lolth to ignore that.
Since Lolth is master of intrigue and weaver of webs in more than the physical sense, she probably has stuff in the works that we haven't seen. I still maintain though that we just don't have enough content out there yet to accurately determine whether WotC wont have Lolth address the issue.
In any event, I agree that Vhaerun and Eilistraee returning should provoke some sort of reaction from Lolth. It would be nice to see it in print, but likely we're going to have to infer it.
Sword Coast Adventurer's Guide is supposed to include an update on the Faerunian gods. Who knows, perhaps they'll explain the situation a bit there. I'm aslo really interested in the relationship between Eilistraee and Vhaeraun after all the ordeal.
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With respect to Lolth's "inaction", I felt that it was strongly implied in that novel chain that Lolth had somehow orchestrated those events to happen, even when seeming not directly involved. There was even a heavy handed reference to a sava board if I recall correctly where Lolth seemingly swept the table until Corellon appeared as her next challenger.
How would she? The novels basically consisted of challanegers consecutively throwing themselves against Eilistraee and her followers, out of their own volition. I really don't think that Lolth had a hand in it.
I also feel that the whole game was a huge metaphor. We have two possibilities: the actions in the game determine what happens, or the actions of mortals do. In the first case, the actions of the mortals, reflected by the pieces moving on the board, would be pointless, since the result would be decided by the game, no matter what happened on the Prime. If the actions of the followers actually determined their own outcome and-say- a move could only be made after the same thing happened on the Prime, then the game would be pointless except as a metaphor, since the various moves would just be representations of what happens in the world. There's also the fact that Eilistraee (or Vhaeraun) gambling everything she has fought for over millennia on a game, or playing a game over the fate of her people (especially when she could have simply kept doing what she was doing before, with the power that she acquired during the Silence of Lolth) and all the other deities mindlessly joining in, is very far fetched IMHO. Considering this, I'm leaning towards the second option: the game used as a representation of what the followers did. |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
Edited by - Irennan on 07 Sep 2015 22:53:28 |
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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3802 Posts |
Posted - 07 Sep 2015 : 22:46:23
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quote:
Originally posted by Xelbon Lu nrae
quote:
Originally posted by Irennan
quote:
Originally posted by Xelbon Lu nrae
Hi guys,
First post for me. There are a few things referenced in the book that I don't know where to find info on, nor do I really want to read multiple novels of other authors to figure out.
Plainly put:
1) when/how was it announced that the other Drow gods/goddesses were back?
2) when/how did we gain insight that Lolth failed to take over the Weave? Who controls magic now?
If there are some links/cliff notes/wiki topics on this info I'd appreciate it. Otherwise if it is all found in a Greenwood novel, a summary would be great. Hell, maybe I missed it in a previous Salvatore book......
As CD said, Eilistraee has been mentioned in Spellstorm as one of the deities with whom Mystra is currently sharing the Weave, implying that she is active and alive now. Ed Greenwood himself confirmed that she and Vhaeraun are back here: http://forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=19841&whichpage=13#468322
Lolth lost her bet for the Weave when a band of adventurers and Mystra defeated her. The whole Darkening also failed, and concluded in the Drizzt novel before Archmage, AFAIK.
Now we're getting somewhere. Thanks guys! Where was this battle between Lolth and said band of adventurers?
It was one of the 4e modules, War of Everlasting Darkness or something like that: http://forgottenrealms.wikia.com/wiki/Demon_Weave |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
Edited by - Irennan on 07 Sep 2015 22:49:49 |
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Lilianviaten
Senior Scribe
489 Posts |
Posted - 08 Sep 2015 : 04:47:09
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quote:
Originally posted by Irennan
quote:
Originally posted by Xelbon Lu nrae
Hi guys,
First post for me. There are a few things referenced in the book that I don't know where to find info on, nor do I really want to read multiple novels of other authors to figure out.
Plainly put:
1) when/how was it announced that the other Drow gods/goddesses were back?
2) when/how did we gain insight that Lolth failed to take over the Weave? Who controls magic now?
If there are some links/cliff notes/wiki topics on this info I'd appreciate it. Otherwise if it is all found in a Greenwood novel, a summary would be great. Hell, maybe I missed it in a previous Salvatore book......
As CD said, Eilistraee has been mentioned in Spellstorm as one of the deities with whom Mystra is currently sharing the Weave, implying that she is active and alive now. Ed Greenwood himself confirmed that she and Vhaeraun are back here: http://forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=19841&whichpage=13#468322
Lolth lost her bet for the Weave when a band of adventurers and Mystra defeated her. The whole Darkening also failed, and concluded in the Drizzt novel before Archmage, AFAIK.
The irony of it all is that Elistraee sacrificed herself to redeem a small percentage of drow, precisely because she was unable to defeat Lolth for control of all the drow. Even after absorbing Vhaeraun and becoming the Masked Lady, Elistraee still wasn't able to beat Lolth.
Her sacrifice is seemingly invalidated, because we know now that to defeat Lolth doesn't require eons of schemes and counter schemes, or the powers of gods allied against her. All we needed was a random band of adventurers to stop by. |
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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3802 Posts |
Posted - 08 Sep 2015 : 04:59:05
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quote:
Originally posted by Lilianviaten
quote:
Originally posted by Irennan
quote:
Originally posted by Xelbon Lu nrae
Hi guys,
First post for me. There are a few things referenced in the book that I don't know where to find info on, nor do I really want to read multiple novels of other authors to figure out.
Plainly put:
1) when/how was it announced that the other Drow gods/goddesses were back?
2) when/how did we gain insight that Lolth failed to take over the Weave? Who controls magic now?
If there are some links/cliff notes/wiki topics on this info I'd appreciate it. Otherwise if it is all found in a Greenwood novel, a summary would be great. Hell, maybe I missed it in a previous Salvatore book......
As CD said, Eilistraee has been mentioned in Spellstorm as one of the deities with whom Mystra is currently sharing the Weave, implying that she is active and alive now. Ed Greenwood himself confirmed that she and Vhaeraun are back here: http://forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=19841&whichpage=13#468322
Lolth lost her bet for the Weave when a band of adventurers and Mystra defeated her. The whole Darkening also failed, and concluded in the Drizzt novel before Archmage, AFAIK.
The irony of it all is that Elistraee sacrificed herself to redeem a small percentage of drow, precisely because she was unable to defeat Lolth for control of all the drow. Even after absorbing Vhaeraun and becoming the Masked Lady, Elistraee still wasn't able to beat Lolth.
Her sacrifice is seemingly invalidated, because we know now that to defeat Lolth doesn't require eons of schemes and counter schemes, or the powers of gods allied against her. All we needed was a random band of adventurers to stop by.
That's not what happened, though. Firstly, Eilistraee fought to stand up to Lolth till the end, and the last scene was really far fetched (many events were, tbh, as they were written with the precise purpose of removing the drow pantheon, but whatever). She didn't go ''oh I cannot defeat Lolth, so sacrifice''. Secondly, it is said nowhere that Eilistraee sacrificed herself to achieve so little, and something that has basically nothing to do with her goal. Doing so would have been extremely OOC, the ''sacrifice'' diminishes and invalidates her, because it would mean that she chose to abandon the vast majority drow, to give up all she dedicated her life to, just to give a minority something that they definitely didn't need and probably even want. Definitely not what a mother goddess would do. Q'arlynd, with her help, was behind the lifting of the curse. But that has been discussed so many times here, in various topics, including that about Eilistraee and Vhaeraun being alive again.
She lost, true, but not as you're putting it (and the possibility that Eilistraee survived is still there).
Also, the adventurers band was supported by Mystra, and, as Ed Greenwood said, Lolth herself lacked the understanding to control and maintain a Weave, as hers relied on Mystra's to exist. So, in this case, it makes sense. |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
Edited by - Irennan on 08 Sep 2015 14:31:24 |
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Eltheron
Senior Scribe
740 Posts |
Posted - 08 Sep 2015 : 15:06:00
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In truth, I don't think we actually know exactly what happened with Eilistraee and Vhaeraun at the end of that series.
What we do "know" is entirely based on what the surviving mortal faithful believed happened. We only know now that both survived in some form, but were distant enough from their worshipers such that they were believed to be dead powers.
About the so-called "sacrifice" we know really nothing at all. A few mortals called it a sacrifice, but they were all caught up in the "game" that was unfolding. Even Lolth herself acted like something weird was going on, and she didn't completely understand it.
And until Corellon and Eilistraee step up to explain what really happened (which they probably won't, because WotC), we may never know.
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"The very best possible post-fourteenth-century Realms lets down those who love the specific, detailed social, political and magical situation, with its thousands of characters, developed over forty years, and want to learn more about it; and those who'd be open to a new one with equal depth, which there just isn't time to re-produce; and those repelled, some past the point of no return, by the bad-taste-and-plausibility gap of things done to the world when its guardianship was less careful."
--Faraer |
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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3802 Posts |
Posted - 08 Sep 2015 : 15:14:43
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quote:
Originally posted by Eltheron
In truth, I don't think we actually know exactly what happened with Eilistraee and Vhaeraun at the end of that series.
What we do "know" is entirely based on what the surviving mortal faithful believed happened. We only know now that both survived in some form, but were distant enough from their worshipers such that they were believed to be dead powers.
I don't know if their survival is canon (I truly hope that it is, though). The possibility is definitely there, supported by canonical facts and concepts, but what we officially know is that Eilistraee and Vhaeraun are now alive and have returned to their followers, period (and that Mystra's sharing the Weave with Eilistraee, but that basically means that the latter is currently active). That's unless you read that passage from Spellstorm as: ''Eilistraee never actually died, she was hidden in the Weave, or what remained of it''.
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And until Corellon and Eilistraee step up to explain what really happened (which they probably won't, because WotC), we may never know.
I hope that they do. We've got ''yeah, yeah Eilistraee and Vhaeraun are alive, that's it'', but that's really not enough, after they wrote 3 books just to get rid of them. An explanation of their return/survival is in order (and, to be fair, a very easy thing to do, since Lisa Smedman admittedly left the possibility of their survival open, and since WotC already owns material for that, that can be tweaked to fit in). |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
Edited by - Irennan on 08 Sep 2015 15:21:46 |
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Eltheron
Senior Scribe
740 Posts |
Posted - 08 Sep 2015 : 15:43:21
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By "survived in some form" I just meant that they could've been like Mystra, or perhaps vestiges, or perhaps even archfey (though I dislike this "archfey" and exarchs business). They survived in some form, and weren't completely obliterated.
I agree WotC should give us some kind of update with more detail, but I really don't think they ever will. Having "Out of the Abyss" in the Underdark and featuring drow would have been the perfect place to re-introduce them, but they didn't. WotC's choices all point to having a streamlined, highly generic Realms - which was actually the goal of 4E. So they used hype and lies to get people to keep buying things, but it all turned out for nothing.
Getting burned once as a customer is bad. Getting burned twice is a pattern. Expect nothing while Perkins is still at the helm.
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"The very best possible post-fourteenth-century Realms lets down those who love the specific, detailed social, political and magical situation, with its thousands of characters, developed over forty years, and want to learn more about it; and those who'd be open to a new one with equal depth, which there just isn't time to re-produce; and those repelled, some past the point of no return, by the bad-taste-and-plausibility gap of things done to the world when its guardianship was less careful."
--Faraer |
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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3802 Posts |
Posted - 08 Sep 2015 : 15:54:14
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quote:
Originally posted by Eltheron
I agree WotC should give us some kind of update with more detail, but I really don't think they ever will. Having "Out of the Abyss" in the Underdark and featuring drow would have been the perfect place to re-introduce them, but they didn't. WotC's choices all point to having a streamlined, highly generic Realms - which was actually the goal of 4E. So they used hype and lies to get people to keep buying things, but it all turned out for nothing.
Getting burned once as a customer is bad. Getting burned twice is a pattern. Expect nothing while Perkins is still at the helm.
I was very disappointed by the lack of even the slightest presence of Eilistraee and Vhaeraun in Out of the Abyss. However, from what I've seen, it doesn't really deal with the drow, or with any substantial FR lore. Their adventures are purposefully lore-light (or lore-free).
They have said that this ''Sword Coast Adventurer's Guide'' will include an update on all the returned deities post-Sundering, so chances are that Eilistraee and Vhaeraun will be included. Who knows, we may be getting something more than ''they live''.
It will also have new races, and if they choose to detail the new ''dark elven'' subrace, its history could very well clarify on Eilistraee's and Vhaeraun's return. Or perhaps a section about Rhymanthiin could do it. Or heck, a Skullport/Promenade section could also include such info. Since the book will not be limited to the Sword Coast, there are countless ways to give us this explanation.
Mind, I don't think that it is *likely*, but hope dies last.
And if everything else fails, we still have Ed (assuming that he is allowed to provide the information).
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Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
Edited by - Irennan on 08 Sep 2015 15:56:53 |
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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3802 Posts |
Posted - 08 Sep 2015 : 21:57:56
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quote:
Originally posted by Irennan
quote:
Originally posted by Eltheron
I agree WotC should give us some kind of update with more detail, but I really don't think they ever will. Having "Out of the Abyss" in the Underdark and featuring drow would have been the perfect place to re-introduce them, but they didn't. WotC's choices all point to having a streamlined, highly generic Realms - which was actually the goal of 4E. So they used hype and lies to get people to keep buying things, but it all turned out for nothing.
Getting burned once as a customer is bad. Getting burned twice is a pattern. Expect nothing while Perkins is still at the helm.
I was very disappointed by the lack of even the slightest presence of Eilistraee and Vhaeraun in Out of the Abyss. However, from what I've seen, it doesn't really deal with the drow, or with any substantial FR lore. Their adventures are purposefully lore-light (or lore-free).
They have said that this ''Sword Coast Adventurer's Guide'' will include an update on all the returned deities post-Sundering, so chances are that Eilistraee and Vhaeraun will be included. Who knows, we may be getting something more than ''they live''.
It will also have new races, and if they choose to detail the new ''dark elven'' subrace, its history could very well clarify on Eilistraee's and Vhaeraun's return. Or perhaps a section about Rhymanthiin could do it. Or heck, a Skullport/Promenade section could also include such info. Since the book will not be limited to the Sword Coast, there are countless ways to give us this explanation.
Mind, I don't think that it is *likely*, but hope dies last.
And if everything else fails, we still have Ed (assuming that he is allowed to provide the information).
Another possibility is that Eilistraee and Vhaeraun are now dark elven (as in brown elven) gods, and the drow who choose to follow them get their curse lifted in some way (and I could personally be ok with that, as long as both of them still care about the drow). If WotC did that, then the twin's absence from OotA would be justified. |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
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Eltheron
Senior Scribe
740 Posts |
Posted - 08 Sep 2015 : 23:17:14
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I agree, Irennan, there are many different interesting possibilities for Eilistraee and Vhaeraun.
I'm not sure how I'd feel about them being brown elven deities for the new/old race. It might be a direction that is a little too complex for the current WotC team to go, but maybe.
I just don't have much hope from this team, or for the upcoming Sword Coast Adventurer's Guide. I'll be pleasantly surprised if there are good lore-heavy parts in it, but I've seen more hype and implied promises (which falter) than anything concrete at this point.
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"The very best possible post-fourteenth-century Realms lets down those who love the specific, detailed social, political and magical situation, with its thousands of characters, developed over forty years, and want to learn more about it; and those who'd be open to a new one with equal depth, which there just isn't time to re-produce; and those repelled, some past the point of no return, by the bad-taste-and-plausibility gap of things done to the world when its guardianship was less careful."
--Faraer |
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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3802 Posts |
Posted - 08 Sep 2015 : 23:24:35
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quote:
Originally posted by Eltheron
I agree, Irennan, there are many different interesting possibilities for Eilistraee and Vhaeraun.
I'm not sure how I'd feel about them being brown elven deities for the new/old race. It might be a direction that is a little too complex for the current WotC team to go, but maybe.
I just don't have much hope from this team, or for the upcoming Sword Coast Adventurer's Guide. I'll be pleasantly surprised if there are good lore-heavy parts in it, but I've seen more hype and implied promises (which falter) than anything concrete at this point.
It would be the perfect solution for their ''but Drizzt has to be the most special drow ever'' dilemma, which led them to delete a huge, defining aspect of the drow in 4e. Eilistraee&Vhaeraun would be restored (as they are now anyway), but WotC wouldn't have to worry about their followers anymore, as they wouldn't be drow anymore (or would be on their way to become something different).
They would hit two birds with a stone. |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
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Eltheron
Senior Scribe
740 Posts |
Posted - 09 Sep 2015 : 00:06:13
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quote:
Originally posted by Irennan
quote:
Originally posted by Eltheron
I agree, Irennan, there are many different interesting possibilities for Eilistraee and Vhaeraun.
I'm not sure how I'd feel about them being brown elven deities for the new/old race. It might be a direction that is a little too complex for the current WotC team to go, but maybe.
I just don't have much hope from this team, or for the upcoming Sword Coast Adventurer's Guide. I'll be pleasantly surprised if there are good lore-heavy parts in it, but I've seen more hype and implied promises (which falter) than anything concrete at this point.
It would be the perfect solution for their ''but Drizzt has to be the most special drow ever'' dilemma, which led them to delete a huge, defining aspect of the drow in 4e. Eilistraee&Vhaeraun would be restored (as they are now anyway), but WotC wouldn't have to worry about their followers anymore, as they wouldn't be drow anymore (or would be on their way to become something different).
They would hit two birds with a stone.
I totally get what you're saying - and it would be an elegant way to further the lore (saying, for example, that both of them also transformed to brown elves - and so they're the deities affiliated with the new/old brown elves). It's a nice way to use and adapt the lore, and I wouldn't mind that.
But I do wonder, for a lot of people who loved Eilistraee especially, her being a drow goddess was really a big deal.
Of course, both could still be worshiped by the drow, and it might even be a cool thing to have her adherents physically change to brown elves by going through some kind of dance ritual once they make their way back to the surface.
Not sure if WotC would ever take such a big step, though. They seem intent on remaining quite generic.
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"The very best possible post-fourteenth-century Realms lets down those who love the specific, detailed social, political and magical situation, with its thousands of characters, developed over forty years, and want to learn more about it; and those who'd be open to a new one with equal depth, which there just isn't time to re-produce; and those repelled, some past the point of no return, by the bad-taste-and-plausibility gap of things done to the world when its guardianship was less careful."
--Faraer |
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader
USA
2708 Posts |
Posted - 09 Sep 2015 : 00:15:12
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That's an interesting concept, and one I am not completely opposed to. Eilistraee's followers undergoing some ritual when they convert that changes their skin color. The downside to that would be it would make itharder for them to blend in while amongst other drow and searching for possible recruits.
I would prefer the drow to stay ebon-skinned (and, as far as we know, E did not turn into a "brown drow"), but it would be an interesting way to explain the "brown drow", rather than completely dismissing or ret-conning it. |
Sweet water and light laughter |
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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3802 Posts |
Posted - 09 Sep 2015 : 00:21:11
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quote:
Originally posted by Eltheron
quote:
Originally posted by Irennan
quote:
Originally posted by Eltheron
I agree, Irennan, there are many different interesting possibilities for Eilistraee and Vhaeraun.
I'm not sure how I'd feel about them being brown elven deities for the new/old race. It might be a direction that is a little too complex for the current WotC team to go, but maybe.
I just don't have much hope from this team, or for the upcoming Sword Coast Adventurer's Guide. I'll be pleasantly surprised if there are good lore-heavy parts in it, but I've seen more hype and implied promises (which falter) than anything concrete at this point.
It would be the perfect solution for their ''but Drizzt has to be the most special drow ever'' dilemma, which led them to delete a huge, defining aspect of the drow in 4e. Eilistraee&Vhaeraun would be restored (as they are now anyway), but WotC wouldn't have to worry about their followers anymore, as they wouldn't be drow anymore (or would be on their way to become something different).
They would hit two birds with a stone.
I totally get what you're saying - and it would be an elegant way to further the lore (saying, for example, that both of them also transformed to brown elves - and so they're the deities affiliated with the new/old brown elves). It's a nice way to use and adapt the lore, and I wouldn't mind that.
But I do wonder, for a lot of people who loved Eilistraee especially, her being a drow goddess was really a big deal.
Of course, both could still be worshiped by the drow, and it might even be a cool thing to have her adherents physically change to brown elves by going through some kind of dance ritual once they make their way back to the surface.
Not sure if WotC would ever take such a big step, though. They seem intent on remaining quite generic.
To me, Eilistraee being a drow goddess is a big deal, it's the physical manifestation of her choice of sharing her people's exile, so that she could be close to them, be a mother to--heck, one of-- them, and show them the joy of life that they have forgotten.
However, all of that is in her personality. If Eilistraee still cares for her ''children'' above all else, then drow or brown elf, she remains Eilistraee, and that's what matters.
I think that having a new elven subrace with their patron deities (Eilistraee *and* Vhaeraun) would be more generic than having nuanced, ''people'' drow, as opposed to ''monster'' drow. It would be the kind of thing that WotC would go after IMHO. It wouldn't cost them anything: just drop a few stats for a new elven subrace, say that they are the result of Eilistraee-Vhaeraun and Q'arlynd work, that the twins are back and brown elves too and that their drow followers can undergo a ritual (or test/pilgrimage) to get their curse lifted. It wouldn't require any particular effort on their side (even less if they were to use the 4e Menzo material).
In fact, I suspect that Eilistraee is back not as a drow, but as a dark elven goddess, and that when her 5e portfolio/followers ''stats'' come out (and this, at least, will likely be included in the SCAG, as it is meant to also offer options to players), her worshipers will be listed as dark elves.
I've been having this feeling since I've received that answer from Christopher Perkins, back in September 2014, stating that one of the reasons behind Eilistraee's removal was making Drizzt more of a special snowflake (the other one being ''too many gods!!''), but that she would have been restored in 5e.
@CD, we don't know wheter Eilistraee turned into a brown elf or not. We only know that she's back and active, as Ed couldn't reveal anything more on her state. |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
Edited by - Irennan on 09 Sep 2015 00:38:22 |
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader
USA
2708 Posts |
Posted - 09 Sep 2015 : 00:26:28
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| Yeah I know we don't. I doubt she did, but again, I wouldn't be opposed to her followers becoming that, though I like the "drow look", if you will, and as I said, it would make it more difficult to blend in among other drow. |
Sweet water and light laughter |
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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3802 Posts |
Posted - 09 Sep 2015 : 00:31:31
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quote:
Originally posted by CorellonsDevout
Yeah I know we don't. I doubt she did, but again, I wouldn't be opposed to her followers becoming that, though I like the "drow look", if you will, and as I said, it would make it more difficult to blend in among other drow.
That's true, it would make their work very hard (unless they all learnt alter-self like spells). But if WotC's goal is to have Drizzt as the only and one drow who isn't a brainwashed spider kisser... |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
Edited by - Irennan on 09 Sep 2015 00:32:36 |
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Eltheron
Senior Scribe
740 Posts |
Posted - 09 Sep 2015 : 01:04:30
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quote:
Originally posted by Irennan
To me, Eilistraee being a drow goddess is a big deal, it's the physical manifestation of her choice of sharing her people's exile, so that she could be close to them, be a mother to--heck, one of-- them, and show them the joy of life that they have forgotten.
However, all of that is in her personality. If Eilistraee still cares for her ''children'' above all else, then drow or brown elf, she remains Eilistraee, and that's what matters.
I think that having a new elven subrace with their patron deities (Eilistraee *and* Vhaeraun) would be more generic than having nuanced, ''people'' drow, as opposed to ''monster'' drow. It would be the kind of thing that WotC would go after IMHO. It wouldn't cost them anything: just drop a few stats for a new elven subrace, say that they are the result of Eilistraee-Vhaeraun and Q'arlynd work, that the twins are back and brown elves too and that their drow followers can undergo a ritual (or test/pilgrimage) to get their curse lifted. It wouldn't require any particular effort on their side (even less if they were to use the 4e Menzo material).
I'm sorry, perhaps I should apologize here. I thought that you were suggesting that making Eilistraee and Vhaeraun into brown elves and having them as patron deities (along with the Seldarine) of the brown elves was a good way that WotC could go with them.
Personally, I agree that it would be a fairly easy "evolution" for WotC to perform - and indeed, it may be exactly what Perkins and company have in mind for them. Time will tell, perhaps.
quote:
In fact, I suspect that Eilistraee is back not as a drow, but as a dark elven goddess, and that when her 5e portfolio/followers ''stats'' come out (and this, at least, will likely be included in the SCAG, as it is meant to also offer options to players), her worshipers will be listed as dark elves.
I've been having this feeling since I've received that answer from Christopher Perkins, back in September 2014, stating that one of the reasons behind Eilistraee's removal was making Drizzt more of a special snowflake (the other one being ''too many gods!!''), but that she would have been restored in 5e.
@CD, we don't know wheter Eilistraee turned into a brown elf or not. We only know that she's back and active, as Ed couldn't reveal anything more on her state.
Good points, and I agree, it does seem like something they would do because it sort of brings them back while also yet disconnecting them from "actual" drow. And so Drizzt remains a snowflake.
I wonder, though, would it end up being a terrible solution, if they're brought back in that way? It might irk quite a few people who would want to see them remain as drow deities, but in some ways it might even be argued that having a special "transform to brown elf" ritual in either Eilistraee or Vhaeraun's faiths might be a pretty interesting evolution of those deities.
To be honest, I don't know which I would prefer, having them back just as drow deities or as transformed brown elves' deities. I think there are good points for both.
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"The very best possible post-fourteenth-century Realms lets down those who love the specific, detailed social, political and magical situation, with its thousands of characters, developed over forty years, and want to learn more about it; and those who'd be open to a new one with equal depth, which there just isn't time to re-produce; and those repelled, some past the point of no return, by the bad-taste-and-plausibility gap of things done to the world when its guardianship was less careful."
--Faraer |
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader
USA
2708 Posts |
Posted - 09 Sep 2015 : 01:18:05
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I agree. While I would prefer them to remain as drow deities, I wouldn't be entirely opposed to them being "dark elves", either. As you said, it would be an interesting evolution for both the deities and their followers. While I think it would be more meaningful if they stayed as drow deities, it would be a way to explain the "brown elves".
However, I don't think it would make Drizzt a special snowflake. If new followers become dark elves after a conversion ritual of some sort, it doesn't change the fact they were still drow when they were first convertes, ergo it would show that drow hearts can be changed. True, Drizzt would then be the only good "true drow", but it lessen his special snowflake-ness. I'm not against the idea, I am just pointing out that if the drow undego a transformation when accepted into E's faith, then they would still be drow when intially swayed. |
Sweet water and light laughter |
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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3802 Posts |
Posted - 09 Sep 2015 : 01:20:57
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quote:
Originally posted by Eltheron
To be honest, I don't know which I would prefer, having them back just as drow deities or as transformed brown elves' deities. I think there are good points for both.
Yes. I prefer drow, because -as I said- it highlights their bond, especially Eilistraee's, with her people, it basically says: ''I'm one of you, I know what you feel because I have chosen be with you, you're not alone''. Ed had a really awesome and unique concept for that.
However, I could accept Eilistraee and Vhaeraun becoming dark elves. This angle could also finally bring Corellon in, and show that he is doing *something* to repair to what ultimately was also his mistake, that he too actually cares.
Any of the two would work, but it would just feel awful if they left it at ''Eilistraee&Vhaeraun are alive. Now STFU''. |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
Edited by - Irennan on 09 Sep 2015 04:48:02 |
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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3802 Posts |
Posted - 09 Sep 2015 : 01:30:18
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quote:
Originally posted by CorellonsDevout
I agree. While I would prefer them to remain as drow deities, I wouldn't be entirely opposed to them being "dark elves", either. As you said, it would be an interesting evolution for both the deities and their followers. While I think it would be more meaningful if they stayed as drow deities, it would be a way to explain the "brown elves".
However, I don't think it would make Drizzt a special snowflake. If new followers become dark elves after a conversion ritual of some sort, it doesn't change the fact they were still drow when they were first convertes, ergo it would show that drow hearts can be changed. True, Drizzt would then be the only good "true drow", but it lessen his special snowflake-ness. I'm not against the idea, I am just pointing out that if the drow undego a transformation when accepted into E's faith, then they would still be drow when intially swayed.
I know, but it doesn't matter much. The important part is to create a disconnect between Eilistraee&Vhaeraun and the drow, a matter of perception. The ''drow'' would still be those ''accursed evil monsters of nightmares'', they would still be owned by Lolth, Drizzt standing among them as the only one managing to not be her puppet without the help of other deities or curse-lifting rituals. He would be even more ''badass'' (even if I don't see it that way), as his retaining his cursed look would be like an act of defiance towards Lolth. |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
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Merrith
Learned Scribe
135 Posts |
Posted - 16 Sep 2015 : 23:03:30
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I never get the hate for Salvatore's writing. Maybe I'm just not the best writing critic, but his books read fine for me. I might be disappointed with certain plot points or characters, but in general I'm just reading for the story and the continuation of it, while seeing changes to certain characters and environments along the way.
My biggest complaint with this book was that when I first heard what the title was, I really was expecting this to be an almost stand alone Gromph novel. Not completely stand alone, as obviously he'd interact with the other key power players among the drow, and other notables like Jarlaxle/Kimmuriel. But I thought much like the 2 book run Jarlaxle/Entreri had, we'd get to delve in deeper to one of my favorite side characters to the whole Drizzt and drow series, Gromph. The ending of VotID seemed to paint that picture as well, with Gromph incensed at Lloth (and still to some extend, Quenthel) for his hope being killed that his status would be elevated even if Lloth gained control of the Weave.
Really expected the book to focus completely on Gromph, making power moves to bring about change to Menzo and to his own status, likely with the assistance from Jarlaxle and Kimmuriel in varying degrees. While I'm not unhappy with the dwarves reclaiming Gauntlgrym, and Bruenor's place therein, it seemed to take away from the compelling solo (mostly) tale we could have had about Gromph. Instead we got Gromph being a dupe to both Kimmuriel and Lloth (who was duping Kimmuriel at the same time), and while his obvious anger and ego could easily be weak points in his armor, it seemed fairly out of character for him in general.
On one hand though, it's nice to have the dwarven story tidied up already, and the events in the final third of the book were quite interesting (as were Lloth's plots all along in general). It also served the purpose of putting some distance between Gromph and Menzo, which I've always wanted so he could be more independent like Jarlaxle. The biggest question I have with Jarlaxle's comments at the very end of the book, about bringing Drizzt himself to the Matron Mothers, was whether they came from Jarlaxle himself looking for an edge to shake up their rule...or if Cutter has a little more pull over him than you would normally expect, with its hatred of Drizzt.
Also I'm really curious who "the human" that was with Beniago when they talked to Kimmuriel and Jarlaxle about Doum'wielle was. |
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader
USA
2708 Posts |
Posted - 17 Sep 2015 : 02:22:26
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| As for Jarlaxle's end comment, I'm sure he has something up his sleeve, and even if it initially seems like he is betraying Drizzt, I doubt he would. |
Sweet water and light laughter |
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Eilserus
Master of Realmslore
USA
1446 Posts |
Posted - 17 Sep 2015 : 03:23:16
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| Drizzt meeting Quenthel again would be an interesting conversation. |
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charger_ss24
Learned Scribe
USA
108 Posts |
Posted - 17 Sep 2015 : 03:48:48
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"Also I'm really curious who "the human" that was with Beniago when they talked to Kimmuriel and Jarlaxle about Doum'wielle was."
I'm willing to bet (and hope) it's Artemis Entreri making a cameo appearance. |
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Portuguese D. Ace
Seeker
Italy
82 Posts |
Posted - 17 Sep 2015 : 13:11:11
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Jarlaxle 's final comment sounds like an ominous menace to Menzoberranzan matriarchal society...
Drizz's gonna smack those matrons! |
Please, bring back the Realms. I'm really fed up with the Sword Coast.
===== Since English is not my first language, I pre-emptively apologize for any (grammar) mistake that has been made in my post. In order to help me improve my English, please, point out those mistakes (If you could do it politely, it would be even better!). Thanks! ===== |
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Lilianviaten
Senior Scribe
489 Posts |
Posted - 17 Sep 2015 : 17:12:21
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quote:
Originally posted by Portuguese D. Ace
Jarlaxle 's final comment sounds like an ominous menace to Menzoberranzan matriarchal society...
Drizz's gonna smack those matrons!
I don't know what the body count will be in Maestro, but Quenthel is undeniably screwed. Gromph is royally pissed, Kimmuriel is royally pissed, Jarlaxle has declared war on the matron mothers, Drizzt in coming back to Menzo, and Dahlia will likely break free of her mind control soon.
Plus, baby Yvonnel is almost ready to seize power and old Matron Oblodra is still waiting to pay House Baenre back! Poor, poor Quenthel is doomed. |
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Lilianviaten
Senior Scribe
489 Posts |
Posted - 17 Sep 2015 : 17:16:54
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quote:
Originally posted by charger_ss24
"Also I'm really curious who "the human" that was with Beniago when they talked to Kimmuriel and Jarlaxle about Doum'wielle was."
I'm willing to bet (and hope) it's Artemis Entreri making a cameo appearance.
I'm confused that people think it could be anyone besides Entreri. What other humans have we ever seen in the company of Bregan Daerthe? Sharlotta Vespers and Morik the Rogue served them for a while, but Rai Guy roasted poor Sharlotta (literally!) and I would imagine that Morik is long dead. Calihye was forced into service by Kimmuriel, but I would imagine that she is long dead also. |
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Lilianviaten
Senior Scribe
489 Posts |
Posted - 17 Sep 2015 : 17:19:40
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quote:
Originally posted by Eilserus
Drizzt meeting Quenthel again would be an interesting conversation.
Indeed. Even in the Realms, I don't imagine that most people ever get to speak with their killers. |
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First thoughts on Salvatore's Archmage
