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Dargoth
Great Reader

Australia
4569 Posts

Posted - 15 Nov 2015 :  00:33:13  Show Profile  Visit Dargoth's Homepage Send Dargoth a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Gyor

The Gods are still targets, Tiamat is stated up in one of the APs, unlike in 2e and 3e, she just feels like powerful monster, not a God, so I'm not impressed. I liked Gods getting class levels.

A party of 20th level characters shouldn't be able to take on a God at all, a lesser avatar maybe,but not Tiamat in all glory. Even in 5e you should have to be epic, (level 21+) to fight Gods.



If the PCs have done there job properly then Tiamats stats have been whittered down by denying her stuff and bringing allies to he final battle

“I am the King of Rome, and above grammar”

Emperor Sigismund

"Its good to be the King!"

Mel Brooks
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Gyor
Master of Realmslore

1087 Posts

Posted - 15 Nov 2015 :  01:53:52  Show Profile Send Gyor a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Delwa

quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

I'm still reading thru the deity section of the book, but I really like the way it's written. I am very impressed by the fact that the focus is very much on the worship of the deities, including specific mentions of things that aren't actual portfolios but tend to fall under their purview because of the portfolios.


Agreed. The way worship of the more evil gods is presented in a "yes, they're evil, but not everyone that does homage to them is evil" way really helps make sense of things, too.



That was one of the highlights of the book.
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Jeremy Grenemyer
Great Reader

USA
2717 Posts

Posted - 15 Nov 2015 :  20:05:33  Show Profile Send Jeremy Grenemyer a Private Message  Reply with Quote
As I read through the Toril and its Lands section, I see that Airspur is still riding high in the sky. That's good news.

So far the entries are doing what they are supposed to do, i.e., providing a brief introduction to new readers, and getting those of us already familiar with the Realms up to speed on the current state of things.

The writing style for this section is frustrating me: just about every entry I have read has at least one run-on sentence, or a couple of sentences stuffed with too many words.

Look for me and my content at EN World (user name: sanishiver).
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dazzlerdal
Great Reader

United Kingdom
3346 Posts

Posted - 16 Nov 2015 :  15:33:49  Show Profile Send dazzlerdal a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Why on toril would the griffon tribe ally with the ultimate enemy of all uthgardt; the orcs.
Uthgardt tribes would set aside all other enmities in order to battle the threat of the orcs.

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KanzenAU
Senior Scribe

Australia
722 Posts

Posted - 16 Nov 2015 :  20:15:25  Show Profile Send KanzenAU a Private Message  Reply with Quote
It does seem strange that they would ally with the orcs against Luruar, though I suppose the Griffon Tribe were always supposed to want to conquer Silverymoon. I do believe the Griffon Tribe has a history of working with orcs though, right back at least to the North - Guide to the Savage Frontier.

I vaguely recollect the Griffon Tribe being good guys in Rise of the King, so not sure how they ended up on the other side.

Regional maps for Waterdeep, Triboar, Ardeep Forest, and Cormyr on DM's Guild, plus a campaign sized map for the North
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Brylock
Seeker

USA
43 Posts

Posted - 16 Nov 2015 :  22:16:50  Show Profile Send Brylock a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Gyor

quote:
Originally posted by Delwa

quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

I'm still reading thru the deity section of the book, but I really like the way it's written. I am very impressed by the fact that the focus is very much on the worship of the deities, including specific mentions of things that aren't actual portfolios but tend to fall under their purview because of the portfolios.


Agreed. The way worship of the more evil gods is presented in a "yes, they're evil, but not everyone that does homage to them is evil" way really helps make sense of things, too.



That was one of the highlights of the book.



One of the big downsides of the earlier editions at times was the complete lack of anything like moral ambiguity in Faerun; I don't meant to say Faerun should be a world where shades of grey is the only type of morals found (you can literally go stab beings made out pure evil in the face with holy Powers after all), but the evil factions were so evil it was like a cartoon. They were Captain Planet villains, doing bad stuff "because Evil" sometimes and there's just not many kinds of stories you can tell with that.

The current portrayal of Bane makes you sort of see why certain places would worship him, especially considering the character of the Moonsea, previously a center of worship of the Black Hand; the world is chaotic and dangerous and messy and violent, and altruism seems to fix nothing. Bane offers ORDER, safety under the Black Hand from bandits and rampaging orcs and monsters. He rewards ambitious people, giving those with the drive to succeed and will to better themselves a chance to do so, for who knows ambition and a desire to raise one's station better then Bane, who was once but a mortal who aspires at godhood in ages past?
Sure they'll take away your freedoms too, but look at real life and see how willingly people will trade away that sort of thing if they think it will keep them safe.

"It's almost like whenever you talk you flip through the dictionary and pull out words at random or something."
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BenN
Learned Scribe

Japan
335 Posts

Posted - 25 Nov 2015 :  22:10:31  Show Profile Send BenN a Private Message  Reply with Quote
My copy finally arrived yesterday (a week behind schedule). I've had a quick skim through, so some initial thoughts:

- I like the location descriptions based on the point of view of various protagonists.

- Descriptions & detail of non-human deities are noticeably shorter than human ones. Why?

- I hope an equivalent book for Cormyr, Sembia, the Dales, Cormanthor etc is produced.

- As mentioned by others, the only references to Myth Drannor are regarding refugees going to Evereska; I like the idea of a conflict in outlook between insular Evereskan elves and those fleeing from Myth Drannor. The SCAG also mentions that surviving bladesingers from Myth Drannor are scattered. This implies that many (most?) Cormanthor elves are no longer following their erstwhile Coronal, Ilsevele.

However, this kinda conflicts with earlier lore about the fall of Myth Drannor; in the 2014 'Questions for Ed' scroll here, and on the WoTC site (the "After the Fall" article), it's made clear that the Tree of Souls survived, only central Myth Drannor was destroyed, and the intact outlying areas (suburbs?) have been "temporarily abandoned", "probably not for long". This implies that the surviving elves will try to reclaim the city again - you'd think that abandoning the Tree of Souls would be out of the question. If that is the case, why does the SCAG imply that the Cormanthor elves are scattered? Looking forward to finding out more about the actual situation in Cormanthor.

Edited by - BenN on 25 Nov 2015 22:11:35
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Jeremy Grenemyer
Great Reader

USA
2717 Posts

Posted - 25 Nov 2015 :  22:32:57  Show Profile Send Jeremy Grenemyer a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by BenN

- I hope an equivalent book for Cormyr, Sembia, the Dales, Cormanthor etc is produced.

That's be a hell of a book. So much has happened that a book detailing how the dust settled (literally, in Myth Drannor's case) would make for a pretty interesting read.

Much as I like Cormyr, I am ready for an update on Sembia.

EDIT: Forgot to mention I am hoping WotC writes a SCAG-style book about the Sea of Fallen Stars.


Look for me and my content at EN World (user name: sanishiver).

Edited by - Jeremy Grenemyer on 25 Nov 2015 22:35:10
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Eilserus
Master of Realmslore

USA
1361 Posts

Posted - 25 Nov 2015 :  22:35:00  Show Profile Send Eilserus a Private Message  Reply with Quote
The Griffon Tribe allying with orcs IS strange. But then looking at the 2E The North boxed set, it says their ancestral mound is Shining White. I'd have to dig out my RAS books, but isn't that the frost giant kingdom from Salvatore's books? I wouldn't be surprised if the tribe had giant blood in their veins too if they are one and the same. Or connected in some way.
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CorellonsDevout
Master of Realmslore

USA
1900 Posts

Posted - 26 Nov 2015 :  00:54:29  Show Profile  Send CorellonsDevout an AOL message Send CorellonsDevout a Private Message  Reply with Quote
@BenN: I heard before the SCAG (I think from Ed), that Myth Drannor hadn't been completely destroyed, so I agree it's strange. I would like to know more.

Sweet water and light laughter
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BenN
Learned Scribe

Japan
335 Posts

Posted - 26 Nov 2015 :  01:14:03  Show Profile Send BenN a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by CorellonsDevout

@BenN: I heard before the SCAG (I think from Ed), that Myth Drannor hadn't been completely destroyed, so I agree it's strange. I would like to know more.


Yeah, for reference, here are the links:

Ed (via THO), about 1/3 of the way down the page:
http://forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=18725&whichpage=17

WoTC "After the Fall" article:
http://dnd.wizards.com/articles/features/after-fall

Its one thing for WoTC to ignore/override Ed's unofficial posts on an online forum, but its downright weird if one of their recent products contradicts a recent article on their own website!

I can only hope/assume that SCAG-style lore & updates about the aftermath of Myth Drannor's fall (and hopefully clarifying this) will be forthcoming some time......
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Irennan
Great Reader

Italy
2672 Posts

Posted - 26 Nov 2015 :  01:21:58  Show Profile Send Irennan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by BenN

quote:
Originally posted by CorellonsDevout

@BenN: I heard before the SCAG (I think from Ed), that Myth Drannor hadn't been completely destroyed, so I agree it's strange. I would like to know more.


Yeah, for reference, here are the links:

Ed (via THO), about 1/3 of the way down the page:
http://forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=18725&whichpage=17

WoTC "After the Fall" article:
http://dnd.wizards.com/articles/features/after-fall

Its one thing for WoTC to ignore/override Ed's unofficial posts on an online forum, but its downright weird if one of their recent products contradicts a recent article on their own website!

I can only hope/assume that SCAG-style lore & updates about the aftermath of Myth Drannor's fall (and hopefully clarifying this) will be forthcoming some time......



They also seem to have resurrected Dove, given what happened in The Herald, but nothing was said about this.

WotC can override what Ed says (which *is* official, unless overridden), but this is strange indeed.

However I think that it's a problem of coordination between their RPG team and the other teams, given that, for example (from what I've read), the dates for Tyranny of Dragons and Rage of Demons reported in RAS' books are not the same as those indicated in the adventure books.

To all Facebook-using FR fans, you might be interested in checking out this page: https://www.facebook.com/groups/450517575051806/

Edited by - Irennan on 26 Nov 2015 01:25:10
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CorellonsDevout
Master of Realmslore

USA
1900 Posts

Posted - 26 Nov 2015 :  03:00:56  Show Profile  Send CorellonsDevout an AOL message Send CorellonsDevout a Private Message  Reply with Quote
It kind of sounds like WotC was trying to satisfy those who preferred Myth Drannor be in ruins because it provided good adventures. Yet some things seem to hint that it isn't completely destroyed (to placate those who were happy for its return). I think there is some conflicting info.

Sweet water and light laughter
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
30019 Posts

Posted - 26 Nov 2015 :  04:12:26  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by BenN

Its one thing for WoTC to ignore/override Ed's unofficial posts on an online forum, but its downright weird if one of their recent products contradicts a recent article on their own website!


Sadly, that's not at all uncommon, now... Heck, through most of 3E, they kept changing their minds on the Shadow Weave -- to the point that a designer said a sourcebook was wrong shortly after the publication of that book!

But I don't see a conflict here. The web article clearly states that the elves left Myth Drannor again -- not in a Retreat, but they did abandon the city. Perhaps in a decade or two, they'll start tricking back in, and resume rebuilding...

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CorellonsDevout
Master of Realmslore

USA
1900 Posts

Posted - 26 Nov 2015 :  04:22:38  Show Profile  Send CorellonsDevout an AOL message Send CorellonsDevout a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I hope they do. I liked the return of Myth Drannor.

Sweet water and light laughter
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CorellonsDevout
Master of Realmslore

USA
1900 Posts

Posted - 26 Nov 2015 :  04:26:21  Show Profile  Send CorellonsDevout an AOL message Send CorellonsDevout a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I'm tired of the elves constantly being in retreat for one reason or another. I know some folks here don't like elves, but they, along with the other demihumans, help make Faerun what it is. It wouldn't be the rich world it is if it just became a "land of men".

Sweet water and light laughter
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BenN
Learned Scribe

Japan
335 Posts

Posted - 26 Nov 2015 :  04:33:24  Show Profile Send BenN a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
The web article clearly states that the elves left Myth Drannor again -- not in a Retreat, but they did abandon the city. Perhaps in a decade or two, they'll start tricking back in, and resume rebuilding...

"Temporarily abandoned", yes. I guess that from an elven point of view, pausing for a couple of decades is 'temporary'.

Both Ed and the article mention the survival of the Tree of Souls, and you'd think that protecting it, or transplanting it to somewhere safer (e.g. Evereska) would be an absolute priority for the elves.

I'm not surprised that the Tree of Souls wasn't mentioned in the SCAG (so presumably it wasn't moved to Evereska), but the impression from this book is that the surviving Cormanthor elves have either scattered or moved to Evereska. So this makes me wonder why Ed kept Ilsevele and Fflar alive at the end of The Herald, if they no longer have any leadership role for the survivors of Myth Drannor. Perhaps it would have been better for them to have died heriocally with their fellow defenders of the city, from a narrative POV.

I hope that we get an update on this.
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CorellonsDevout
Master of Realmslore

USA
1900 Posts

Posted - 26 Nov 2015 :  04:37:18  Show Profile  Send CorellonsDevout an AOL message Send CorellonsDevout a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I'm glad Ilsevele and Starbow survived, personally. Perhaps they will help reclaim Myth Drannor (again), or lead the elven refugees to places like Evereska. Even if they don't currently rule Myth Drannor, it doesn't mean they don't have a part to play. They have a responsibility to help the other survivors of the destruction. I'm glad they made it, and I hope we hear more about what they're up to.

Sweet water and light laughter
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xaeyruudh
Master of Realmslore

USA
1808 Posts

Posted - 26 Nov 2015 :  06:14:34  Show Profile  Visit xaeyruudh's Homepage Send xaeyruudh a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by CorellonsDevout

I'm tired of the elves constantly being in retreat for one reason or another. I know some folks here don't like elves, but they, along with the other demihumans, help make Faerun what it is. It wouldn't be the rich world it is if it just became a "land of men".


This is true. The Retreat was canceled, and making them reinstate it undermines the vaunted wisdom of elven elders. Admittedly, they wouldn't have foreseen this Sundering, but still. We all need to be in agreement that the Retreat --at least on a big "there are no more elves in Faerun" level-- is over.

That said, I do like the idea of elves retreating into the forests. Not to fade away from the world, but to regrow the forests and make them the deep and dangerous-to-men places that I think Ed meant for some of them to be. The Eldreth Veluuthra should remain a threat, but they should operate invisibly. Most humans should go their whole lives without ever seeing an elf, and consider that a good thing because elves are the feared and misunderstood spirits of the deep woods. The elves have lost their magic, figuratively speaking, and 5e is a shining opportunity to restore it.
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BenN
Learned Scribe

Japan
335 Posts

Posted - 26 Nov 2015 :  09:23:52  Show Profile Send BenN a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by xaeyruudh
I do like the idea of elves retreating into the forests. Not to fade away from the world, but to regrow the forests and make them the deep and dangerous-to-men places that I think Ed meant for some of them to be. The Eldreth Veluuthra should remain a threat, but they should operate invisibly. Most humans should go their whole lives without ever seeing an elf, and consider that a good thing because elves are the feared and misunderstood spirits of the deep woods. The elves have lost their magic, figuratively speaking, and 5e is a shining opportunity to restore it.

My view is different in some ways; I'm glad that the Retreat is over, and despite the setback in Myth Drannor, that the elves are firmly entrenched in Faerun, whether in their own strongholds in Evereska, the High Forest & other secluded places, or living alongside other races in the human cities & towns.

I think the variety of lifestyles & conflicting viewpoints among the various groups & races of elves makes things interesting. On the one hand, you have the mysterious Fey of Sarifal, the xenophobic gold elves in Evereska, and extremist Eldreth Veluuthra in the forests. On the other, pragmatists like Prince Araithe in Sarifal (willing to accept the help & presence of adventurers on the isle of Gwynneth), refugees from Myth Drannor who reject the xenophobia of elves in Evereska, and of course the many elves living in places like Silverymoon & other cosmopolitan cities.

The SCAG mentions that since the end of the Sundering, ships from Evermeet have started arriving at ports on Faerun, so it seems that even the Evermeetian elves are not content to be cut off completely from the mainland, and are willing to engage with other races (albeit on their on terms).

These conflicting philosophies about what 'elves should be' makes for an interesting & more believable narrative, IMHO.

Edited by - BenN on 26 Nov 2015 14:18:53
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Diffan
Great Reader

USA
3372 Posts

Posted - 26 Nov 2015 :  19:24:49  Show Profile Send Diffan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I feel the "destruction" of Myth Drannor wasn't needed at all to maintain the idea of ruins for adventurers to explore. The vast majority of of Myth Drannor had remained in a state of quarantine of a sorts, protected and guarded by Bladesingers and elven warriors so the monsters didn't escape the magical wards.


4E Realms = Great Taste, Less Filling.

"If WotC were to put out a box of free money, people would still complain how it was folded."
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Gyor
Master of Realmslore

1087 Posts

Posted - 28 Nov 2015 :  13:17:12  Show Profile Send Gyor a Private Message  Reply with Quote
One Elven city being no longer fit for habitation does not make it an Elven retreat, Evermeet is back, the Star Elf demiplane is reachable from the Yuirwood again, Myth Nantar is still thriving, the City of Hope is still there, if you can find it, the Elf harrows are still around, Everseka is fine and growing thanks to the influx of Myth Drannor refugees, and various cities have they're refugees.

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Gyor
Master of Realmslore

1087 Posts

Posted - 28 Nov 2015 :  13:18:37  Show Profile Send Gyor a Private Message  Reply with Quote
That doesn't even count all the other elf kingdoms and lands in the Feywild.
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Shadowsoul
Senior Scribe

Ireland
646 Posts

Posted - 30 Nov 2015 :  10:06:24  Show Profile Send Shadowsoul a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I would love to see all the Mythal cities back in action with elves having a solid footing in Faerun again.

“Fantasy is escapist, and that is its glory. If a soldier is imprisioned by the enemy, don't we consider it his duty to escape?. . .If we value the freedom of mind and soul, if we're partisans of liberty, then it's our plain duty to escape, and to take as many people with us as we can!”
#8213; J.R.R. Tolkien

*I endorse everything Dark Wizard says*.
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The_Silversword
Seeker

USA
32 Posts

Posted - 07 Dec 2015 :  00:45:49  Show Profile  Send The_Silversword an AOL message Send The_Silversword a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I just picked it up, havnt had much time to give it a proper reading, but I like what im seeing, nice balance of crunch and fluff, and it gives an overview of Toril, not just focusing on the Sword Coast.

I survived the Great OTTer Purge of 2013 and all I got was this stupid sig.
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