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JohnLynch
Learned Scribe

Australia
182 Posts

Posted - 27 Oct 2015 :  23:10:03  Show Profile Send JohnLynch a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Only Orogoth is in the High Moor
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Dargoth
Great Reader

Australia
4569 Posts

Posted - 27 Oct 2015 :  23:37:14  Show Profile  Visit Dargoth's Homepage Send Dargoth a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by JohnLynch

Only Orogoth is in the High Moor



As a fellow Australian I have to ask... How do you have the book?

“I am the King of Rome, and above grammar”

Emperor Sigismund

"Its good to be the King!"

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JohnLynch
Learned Scribe

Australia
182 Posts

Posted - 27 Oct 2015 :  23:42:39  Show Profile Send JohnLynch a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Dargoth

quote:
Originally posted by JohnLynch

Only Orogoth is in the High Moor



As a fellow Australian I have to ask... How do you have the book?

I don't. I do have the map from the book (bought from Mike Schley and for me definitely a worthwhile purchase as it maps out Cormyr and the Stonelands, although with no meaningful detail as to where things are located which suits me just fine).
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Irennan
Great Reader

Italy
2590 Posts

Posted - 28 Oct 2015 :  15:02:17  Show Profile Send Irennan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Beings like Ghaunadaur and Moander (who is back, in a form) also seem to no longer be deities, but ''Great Old Ones'' entities (beings who come from the Far Realm, ancient, mostly forgotten gods etc...). So they might have cults, be patrons to warlocks and so on.

To all Facebook-using FR fans, you might be interested in checking out this page: https://www.facebook.com/groups/450517575051806/
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
29797 Posts

Posted - 28 Oct 2015 :  15:40:34  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Irennan

Beings like Ghaunadaur and Moander (who is back, in a form) also seem to no longer be deities, but ''Great Old Ones'' entities (beings who come from the Far Realm, ancient, mostly forgotten gods etc...). So they might have cults, be patrons to warlocks and so on.



In a form?

Old Moldy has always been a bit of an odd duck, as far as deities are concerned -- he's lost his divinity, but there's still at least one avatar out there...

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Irennan
Great Reader

Italy
2590 Posts

Posted - 28 Oct 2015 :  16:29:28  Show Profile Send Irennan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

quote:
Originally posted by Irennan

Beings like Ghaunadaur and Moander (who is back, in a form) also seem to no longer be deities, but ''Great Old Ones'' entities (beings who come from the Far Realm, ancient, mostly forgotten gods etc...). So they might have cults, be patrons to warlocks and so on.



In a form?

Old Moldy has always been a bit of an odd duck, as far as deities are concerned -- he's lost his divinity, but there's still at least one avatar out there...



Yeah, I meant as a warlock patron. But considering what you said, his status might have not changed at all, and the remaining avatar could be the ''Great Old One'' entity the book refers to.

Still, Ghaunadaur seem to no longer be able to grant divine spells.

To all Facebook-using FR fans, you might be interested in checking out this page: https://www.facebook.com/groups/450517575051806/

Edited by - Irennan on 28 Oct 2015 16:39:04
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Tarlyn
Learned Scribe

USA
304 Posts

Posted - 28 Oct 2015 :  16:59:13  Show Profile Send Tarlyn a Private Message  Reply with Quote
For what it is worth, I am 50 pages into the book and really enjoying it.
My brief impression of each section I read is below. The section covering major events in the timeline just gives the setting defining highlights. So major events like time of troubles, spell plague and sundering are covered along with a few others. It provides a summary of the sundering as well from a mortals perspective. The deities section gives details about how and why each god is worshipped. It also covers what religious institutions a particular god has. So deity X might have temples and full time clergy and deity y might have only shrines or no organized religious agents. The locations section is written from a particular individual's point of view. None of they are famous realms personalities. For instance, the first narrator is an agent of the Lord's Alliance. The section states that there will be 5 narrators. So far, amphail, baldur ' s gate and longsaddle have been done by the same person.

Also, for those playing 5e the new subclasses are neat.

Tarlyn Embersun
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
29797 Posts

Posted - 28 Oct 2015 :  20:13:17  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Irennan


Still, Ghaunadaur seem to no longer be able to grant divine spells.



That draws vacuum. He was my second fave evil drow deity, after Vhaeraun. (I really dislike Lolth)

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Irennan
Great Reader

Italy
2590 Posts

Posted - 28 Oct 2015 :  20:16:23  Show Profile Send Irennan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:


That draws vacuum. He was my second fave evil drow deity, after Vhaeraun. (I really dislike Lolth)



Heh, you're not alone

Ghaunadaur has been out of the drow pantheon since before the Spellplague, though. IMO it was for the better: he has little to do with the drow specifically, except that he was worshiped in Ilythiir alongside Vhaeraun, but that doesn't make him fit very well in the Dark Seldarine.

To all Facebook-using FR fans, you might be interested in checking out this page: https://www.facebook.com/groups/450517575051806/
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dazzlerdal
Great Reader

United Kingdom
3249 Posts

Posted - 28 Oct 2015 :  20:51:39  Show Profile Send dazzlerdal a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I reckon Ghaunadaur's presence in the Dark Seldarine is only because he was probably the original ruler of the layer of the abyss that became the demonweb pits.

His obsession with Lolth and his plotting against her makes him an excellent foil.

Admittedly he doesn't fit in thematically within the drow pantheon, but he does fit historically and lorically (I'm not sure what the ically word for lore is).

If you were a drow and hated Lolth and her arrogant priestesses and wanted to get back at them then what better way to do it than worship one of her most hated enemies (you certainly wouldn't be able to worship Corellon and most drow are moulded into evil so they probably wouldn't even consider trying to get back at Lolth using Eilistraee).


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Irennan
Great Reader

Italy
2590 Posts

Posted - 28 Oct 2015 :  20:59:25  Show Profile Send Irennan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by dazzlerdal

I reckon Ghaunadaur's presence in the Dark Seldarine is only because he was probably the original ruler of the layer of the abyss that became the demonweb pits.

His obsession with Lolth and his plotting against her makes him an excellent foil.

Admittedly he doesn't fit in thematically within the drow pantheon, but he does fit historically and lorically (I'm not sure what the ically word for lore is).


Agreed, he storically fits in the Dark Seldarine, in fact he was among the first deities worshipped by the drow, alongside Eilistraee and Vhaeraun.

quote:
If you were a drow and hated Lolth and her arrogant priestesses and wanted to get back at them then what better way to do it than worship one of her most hated enemies (you certainly wouldn't be able to worship Corellon and most drow are moulded into evil so they probably wouldn't even consider trying to get back at Lolth using Eilistraee).





Technically, a drow would be able to worship Corellon, he wouldn't turn down followers, as no god probably would. The thing is that the vast majority of drow wouldn't even think about it, know about him, or lean towards it if they saw what his followers think of the drow, or what his dogma says about them.

The thing is, if you look at Ghaunadaur's dogma, it is at the same levels of nonsense as Lolth's. It basically says: ''you must feed Ghaunadaur'', with the only meaningful part being ''those who cull the weak and rebel are worthy of power'', which is strikingly similar to Lolth's (with less nonsense like ''love is weakness, happiness is weakness''). Someone seeking an alternative to Lolth would proably go elsewhere, likely to Vhaeraun, who is (like his sister but through different means) focused on freeing the drow from his mother's tyranny.

To all Facebook-using FR fans, you might be interested in checking out this page: https://www.facebook.com/groups/450517575051806/

Edited by - Irennan on 28 Oct 2015 20:59:47
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dazzlerdal
Great Reader

United Kingdom
3249 Posts

Posted - 28 Oct 2015 :  21:16:13  Show Profile Send dazzlerdal a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Well given that drow are all about the strong surviving, the dogma probably comes more from the traditional drow mentality than from anything else (seeing as I treat gods in FR like I do in real life).

If you wanted to create a credible rival faith to Lolth then one that mirrors the message of her church would be most successful (because the majority of drow agree with that message, but possibly dislike the church itself and how they go about delivering it).

So a real world example is modern politics (especially in England). We have 2 main parties that basically spout the same political nonsense (just slightly reworded) and so most people side with these two parties. Everything else is fringe parties that focus on completely different issues and they attract the least.

There is a reason why Vhaeraun and Eilistraee are smaller in size/power, because most drow do not agree with the views of their churches. Drow believe the strong survive and the weak must die. They believe this because they live in a very harsh environment and because their society reinforces it. If you suffer at the hands of the church of lolth then you want to get even, doesn't mean you suddenly start believing in being nice and other fringe views, instead you side with the opposition party (Ghaunadaur) that says the same things as you believe but really wants rid of Lolth's church.

Of course I could be completely wrong here.

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Gyor
Master of Realmslore

1009 Posts

Posted - 28 Oct 2015 :  21:23:41  Show Profile Send Gyor a Private Message  Reply with Quote
It seems this book creates more questions then it answers.

I'll also point out that Gilgeam God King of Unther is given as an example patron for Undying Warlocks, so demigods that remain on Faerun might not be able to grant divine spells, maybe just offer Warlock pacts. Or perhaps it just clerics they can't have, but they can still have Druids, Rangers, Paladins, and other divine magic users that might come along later.
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Irennan
Great Reader

Italy
2590 Posts

Posted - 28 Oct 2015 :  21:31:17  Show Profile Send Irennan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by dazzlerdal

Well given that drow are all about the strong surviving, the dogma probably comes more from the traditional drow mentality than from anything else (seeing as I treat gods in FR like I do in real life).

If you wanted to create a credible rival faith to Lolth then one that mirrors the message of her church would be most successful (because the majority of drow agree with that message, but possibly dislike the church itself and how they go about delivering it).

So a real world example is modern politics (especially in England). We have 2 main parties that basically spout the same political nonsense (just slightly reworded) and so most people side with these two parties. Everything else is fringe parties that focus on completely different issues and they attract the least.

There is a reason why Vhaeraun and Eilistraee are smaller in size/power, because most drow do not agree with the views of their churches. Drow believe the strong survive and the weak must die. They believe this because they live in a very harsh environment and because their society reinforces it. If you suffer at the hands of the church of lolth then you want to get even, doesn't mean you suddenly start believing in being nice and other fringe views, instead you side with the opposition party (Ghaunadaur) that says the same things as you believe but really wants rid of Lolth's church.

Of course I could be completely wrong here.



Usually harsh environments promote mutual cooperation for survival agains drastic odds. Infighting does nothing but making the situation worse. Then there's the Underdark, where there are two options that might work: constant infighting over scarce resources, and embracing trade/other kind of development to get more resources (which does exist among the drow in the Realms. See Sschynylryn --sp--, where the faith of Lolth doesn't hold much power). Also, strangely enough, in the only drow city where Ghaunadaur is strong (Llurth Dreir), inflighting is prohibited and mutiple faiths (all the Dark Seldarine but Lolth) are practiced.

Either way, after 10000 years of utter failures and stagnation, of pointless agony and lack of choice inflicted on all Lolthite drow, compared to the flourishing that their race saw with Ilythiir and Miyeritar (and therefore when the faiths of Vhaeraun and Eilistraee were strong, when Lolth had nothing on the drow), I think that many drow would see that Lolth's dogma or equivalents don't have much success (especially considering the influece that Lolth's children have on the dark evles, the exposure to alternative ideas and so on). In fact, I'm surprised that heretical versions of her dogma, perhaps embracing a rigid meritocracy instead of randomly killing each other in the name of a mad ''goddess'' (which would very likely bring magical and technical developments to the drow, since the competition would involve innovation and creation of things that can improve the quality of life, rather than just trying to hold more status than the next dude), haven't been practiced.

On a side note, according to what Ed said, Vhaeraun's faith is stronger than Eilistraee's, which is stronger than the rest. So there's also that.

To all Facebook-using FR fans, you might be interested in checking out this page: https://www.facebook.com/groups/450517575051806/

Edited by - Irennan on 28 Oct 2015 21:33:27
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Gambit
Learned Scribe

110 Posts

Posted - 28 Oct 2015 :  21:53:36  Show Profile Send Gambit a Private Message  Reply with Quote
This may not be a popular opinion here, but I would have been ok if they hadn't brought back Selvetarm or Kiaransalee, and had the Drow pantheon as the trifecta of CE Lolth, CN Vhaeraun, and CG Eilistraee. I'm just a huge fan of symmetry.

Edited by - Gambit on 28 Oct 2015 21:56:26
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Jeremy Grenemyer
Great Reader

USA
2717 Posts

Posted - 28 Oct 2015 :  22:56:01  Show Profile Send Jeremy Grenemyer a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Gyor

It seems this book creates more questions then it answers.

You may not have intended your statement as a compliment, but from the perspective of Realms game design it is a compliment.

For every answer a Realms sourcebook provides, it ought to pose three more questions waiting to be answered.

Look for me and my content at EN World (user name: sanishiver).
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Delwa
Master of Realmslore

USA
1204 Posts

Posted - 28 Oct 2015 :  23:58:10  Show Profile  Visit Delwa's Homepage Send Delwa a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Quick question, as I'm waiting on my copy to come from Amazon. Looking at this map that is supposed to be in the book, it looks like the rift in the City of Neverwinter is filled in? Does the book provide even a sentence on this, or is it left up to a DM's imagination?

- Delwa Aunglor of Tangled Trees
I am off to slay yon refrigerator and spoil it's horde. Go for the cheese, Boo!

"The Realms change; seldom at the speed desired of those who strive, but far too quickly for those who resist." - The Simbul, taken from the Forgotten Realms Campaign Conspectus

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Irennan
Great Reader

Italy
2590 Posts

Posted - 29 Oct 2015 :  01:52:25  Show Profile Send Irennan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Gambit

This may not be a popular opinion here, but I would have been ok if they hadn't brought back Selvetarm or Kiaransalee, and had the Drow pantheon as the trifecta of CE Lolth, CN Vhaeraun, and CG Eilistraee. I'm just a huge fan of symmetry.



I would have liked CE Lolth, CN Vhaeraun and CG Eilistraee as well. Selvetarm can fit in, especially if he tried to fight Zanassu's influence over him and maybe join his aunt or work with his father against Lolth. Or perhaps all 3 working together. After all that happened, and after the Sundering, this could have been a perfect opportunity for Selvetarm to get rid of Zanassu, for Eilistraee to help him doing that, or for brother and sister joining forces. However, it seems like they basically hit the reset button.

I personally don't see Kiaransalee or Ghaunadaur as really thematically fitting in the Dark Seldarine, but I have no problem with them being in.

To all Facebook-using FR fans, you might be interested in checking out this page: https://www.facebook.com/groups/450517575051806/

Edited by - Irennan on 29 Oct 2015 01:55:16
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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore

Australia
4772 Posts

Posted - 29 Oct 2015 :  04:06:13  Show Profile Send George Krashos a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Tarlyn
The section states that there will be 5 narrators. So far, Amphail, Baldur's Gate and Longsaddle have been done by the same person.



I wonder which of the six factions has missed out.

-- George Krashos

"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus
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Gyor
Master of Realmslore

1009 Posts

Posted - 29 Oct 2015 :  18:29:21  Show Profile Send Gyor a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by dazzlerdal

Well given that drow are all about the strong surviving, the dogma probably comes more from the traditional drow mentality than from anything else (seeing as I treat gods in FR like I do in real life).

If you wanted to create a credible rival faith to Lolth then one that mirrors the message of her church would be most successful (because the majority of drow agree with that message, but possibly dislike the church itself and how they go about delivering it).

So a real world example is modern politics (especially in England). We have 2 main parties that basically spout the same political nonsense (just slightly reworded) and so most people side with these two parties. Everything else is fringe parties that focus on completely different issues and they attract the least.

There is a reason why Vhaeraun and Eilistraee are smaller in size/power, because most drow do not agree with the views of their churches. Drow believe the strong survive and the weak must die. They believe this because they live in a very harsh environment and because their society reinforces it. If you suffer at the hands of the church of lolth then you want to get even, doesn't mean you suddenly start believing in being nice and other fringe views, instead you side with the opposition party (Ghaunadaur) that says the same things as you believe but really wants rid of Lolth's church.

Of course I could be completely wrong here.



Thanks to Corbyn that is no longer true in England.
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
29797 Posts

Posted - 29 Oct 2015 :  19:02:12  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Let's not go further into real-world politics, please.

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dazzlerdal
Great Reader

United Kingdom
3249 Posts

Posted - 29 Oct 2015 :  19:33:50  Show Profile Send dazzlerdal a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Worry not, I had no intention, it is my least favourite subject. It was just the most similar analogy I could think of as to why people would worship Ghaunadaur.

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Gyor
Master of Realmslore

1009 Posts

Posted - 29 Oct 2015 :  19:58:21  Show Profile Send Gyor a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Anyway, I think the whole dark Seldarine should have been brought back, period, wasn't that part of the whole point of the Sundering, that the Gods would be brought back, not that some would be brought back and others demoted from being Gods. It defeats at least part of the purpose of the Sundering.

I'd even bring back that Drow Goddess of Assassins that Lolth ate, I forget her name.
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Gyor
Master of Realmslore

1009 Posts

Posted - 29 Oct 2015 :  20:05:44  Show Profile Send Gyor a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Jeremy Grenemyer

quote:
Originally posted by Gyor

It seems this book creates more questions then it answers.

You may not have intended your statement as a compliment, but from the perspective of Realms game design it is a compliment.

For every answer a Realms sourcebook provides, it ought to pose three more questions waiting to be answered.



Agreed in principle, but the question is are they the right questions or the wrong question (the wrong questions being created by important things that shouldn't have been), and the right ones create a sense of wonder and curisosity and even creativity instead of frusation or disappoint like the wrong questions.

I suspect that the SCAG will have a mix of both.
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Irennan
Great Reader

Italy
2590 Posts

Posted - 29 Oct 2015 :  20:12:31  Show Profile Send Irennan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Gyor

Anyway, I think the whole dark Seldarine should have been brought back, period, wasn't that part of the whole point of the Sundering, that the Gods would be brought back, not that some would be brought back and others demoted from being Gods. It defeats at least part of the purpose of the Sundering.

I'd even bring back that Drow Goddess of Assassins that Lolth ate, I forget her name.



They *have* been brought back (Ghaunadaur has become something else, but he's still there). Even if for some reason you don't trust the book, at least Eilistraee&Vhaeraun had already been confirmed to be alive before it.

To all Facebook-using FR fans, you might be interested in checking out this page: https://www.facebook.com/groups/450517575051806/
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