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sno4wy
Senior Scribe
USA
466 Posts |
 Posted - 18 Jul 2015 : 15:02:17
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Hello Everyone!
I'm in need of some assistance. I apologize for the ridiculous subject matter but it drives me crazy when people assert things as canonical based on single snippets of references and/or popular agreement. I don't have all the sourcebooks and lore references (i.e. novels) on hand, nor have I read all of the novels in the realms in the latter case, so I'm hoping that you guys can help me with your collective knowledge.
Simply put: what's the status of elves and the ability to grow body hair (other than on scalp, eyebrows and eyelashes), in the most recent editions, compared to earlier editions of the Realms? Any citations or references from any of realms literature, be it sourcebooks or novels, would be great.
Thanks!
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sfdragon
Great Reader
2285 Posts |
Posted - 18 Jul 2015 : 21:34:49
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| elves dont grow facial hair or hair anywhere else except whats on their heads. Think it was the 3.x frcs |
why is being a wizard like being a drow? both are likely to find a dagger in the back from a rival or one looking to further his own goals, fame and power
My FR fan fiction
Magister's GAmbit
http://steelfiredragon.deviantart.com/gallery/33539234 |
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Jorkens
Great Reader
Norway
2950 Posts |
Posted - 18 Jul 2015 : 21:51:24
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| According to Ed they have facial hair, its been a few years, but he mentioned that for example Jhessail Silvertree sported a moustache at times. And drow were often depicted with large, drooping moustaches in earlier editions. From what I remember Dragonlance is the only D&D world where it is spelled out that elves didnt have facial hair, but even there the main writers couldnt keep it strait. |
No Canon, more stories, more Realms. |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 19 Jul 2015 : 00:01:54
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My own 'fix' for all of this is that NO, Elves don't have facial hair (and other body hair, even less likely).
However, over the course of untold milenia, Elves have interbred with humans (and others), and therefor it is a recessive gene and some can.
Dragonlance Elves probably maintain the purest bloodlines.
And thats my fix for that - NO, they can't... but they can.  |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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sno4wy
Senior Scribe
USA
466 Posts |
Posted - 19 Jul 2015 : 00:10:37
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
However, over the course of untold milenia, Elves have interbred with humans (and others), and therefor it is a recessive gene and some can.
I didn't specify, but I was trying to find out about purebred elvenkind. Ones with bloodlines untouched by the hairy humanoid races. ;P |
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BenN
Senior Scribe
Japan
382 Posts |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11690 Posts |
Posted - 19 Jul 2015 : 02:00:59
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| do elves grow pubic hair? |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Barastir
Master of Realmslore
Brazil
1600 Posts |
Posted - 19 Jul 2015 : 02:22:44
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As far as I know, Jhessail Silvertree is a half-elf, that's why he can sport a mustache. As for drow having mustaches, it all began when artists, based on the 1e Monster Manual picture, mistook a reflex of the upper lips for a mustache, and started drawing mustaches.
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"Goodness is not a natural state, but must be
fought for to be attained and maintained.
Lead by example.
Let your deeds speak your intentions.
Goodness radiated from the heart."
The Paladin's Virtues, excerpt from the "Quentin's Monograph"
(by Ed Greenwood) |
Edited by - Barastir on 20 Jul 2015 19:17:13 |
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Finglas Leaflock
Acolyte
USA
35 Posts |
Posted - 19 Jul 2015 : 03:54:39
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| I think you guys are referring to Merith Strongbow of the Knights of Myth Drannor - Jhessail is a female human. :-) |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 19 Jul 2015 : 04:14:42
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Yes... and Jhessail has been known to sport quite a nice mustache. Must be some dwarven blood in there somewhere.
quote:
Originally posted by sno4wy
I didn't specify, but I was trying to find out about purebred elvenkind. Ones with bloodlines untouched by the hairy humanoid races.
Well, my point was that in RAW NO, they can't. And yet, many authors, designers, and artists have depicted them thusly. I simply say that every so often a 'pureblood' elf CAN have facial hair, because after some 35,000 years a few humans crept in, whether those Elves want to admit it or not. Almost no blood anywhere on Toril is 100% pure anymore, I would imagine; its recorded history goes back further then RW.
Half Elvers might sport facial hair proudly... unless they are living amongst elves. Silver Elves who are eccentric might do so, but a Gold elf? One who could grow facial hair would probably consider it a curse (because their 'pure blood' wouldn't be as pure as they thought). They would do everything and anything in their power to stop that hair growth - perhaps even resorting to powerful (permanent) magics. A Gold Elf 'black sheep' might grow a goatee just to embarrass their parents... but thats more a human trait. Its also not something you can take back - once other 'Golds' know about it, they'll never be consider 'as good' as a real Gold Elf.
And yet... some of them have no problem interbreeding with fiends. Go figure. Elves are weird.
So all I was saying is that the answer is BOTH 'Yes' and 'No', because despite the lore saying they can't, we have a lot of examples of them doing so. In YOUR game, you can say whatever you want, and if you want to say NO then thats your call, but then you can't really explain-away why some do every so often.
As for the 'pure blood' thing - a TRUE pure blood elf would look very much like a Fey (as one of Amlaruil's daughter's - Ilyrana - did). |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 19 Jul 2015 04:16:10 |
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Barastir
Master of Realmslore
Brazil
1600 Posts |
Posted - 20 Jul 2015 : 19:17:38
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quote:
Originally posted by Finglas Leaflock
I think you guys are referring to Merith Strongbow of the Knights of Myth Drannor - Jhessail is a female human. :-)
I thought he was talking about Lanseril Snowmantle, didn't notice the wrong name. I only remember of Dragonlance Tanis (also a half-elf) sometimes wearing a mustache (or beard). But I admit I have no much lore on the Knights. |
"Goodness is not a natural state, but must be
fought for to be attained and maintained.
Lead by example.
Let your deeds speak your intentions.
Goodness radiated from the heart."
The Paladin's Virtues, excerpt from the "Quentin's Monograph"
(by Ed Greenwood) |
Edited by - Barastir on 20 Jul 2015 19:20:32 |
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Seravin
Master of Realmslore
Canada
1265 Posts |
Posted - 20 Jul 2015 : 21:38:41
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quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
do elves grow pubic hair?
According to Ed through The Hooded One, yes they do. |
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Rymac
Learned Scribe
USA
315 Posts |
Posted - 20 Jul 2015 : 22:38:49
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
So all I was saying is that the answer is BOTH 'Yes' and 'No', because despite the lore saying they can't, we have a lot of examples of them doing so. In YOUR game, you can say whatever you want, and if you want to say NO then thats your call, but then you can't really explain-away why some do every so often.
As for the 'pure blood' thing - a TRUE pure blood elf would look very much like a Fey (as one of Amlaruil's daughter's - Ilyrana - did).
Just to pick up on the true pure-blood elf topic, I think it's Dragonlance's rules that if there is ANY non-elven blood in the bloodline, then they aren't really an elf, they're a half-elf. Even if a half-elf and elf have offspring, because there is non-elven ancestry, the best outcome is half-elven. I think that was an old 1st edition rule pertaining to elves and half-elves, which from the Forgotten Realms OGB onward was revised to the Greenwood distinction of elven genetics.
I remember reading some blurb in Ruins of Myth Drannor that there was an half-elven half-dwarf! |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 20 Jul 2015 : 23:28:11
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quote:
Originally posted by Rymac
I remember reading some blurb in Ruins of Myth Drannor that there was an half-elven half-dwarf!
There has actually been more than one "dwelf" in the Realms. My own compiled notes, on the topic:
quote:
I'm only recalling the existence of two named dwelves.
One was Isinghar "Feyrune" Ironstar, described as a dwelf runecarver and archmage of Ammarindar, who was one of the secondary casters in the raising of the mythal over Myth Glaurach. This is from the Myth Glaurach article that was part of the Mintiper's Chapbook series.
The other named dwelf was Dlarbraddath. We don't know if that was his actual name; we just know that a section of Myth Drannor was "named for the gardener who laid it out, a being said to have an elven mother and a dwarven father!" (page 19, Campaign Guide to Myth Drannor, Ruins of Myth Drannor boxed set). I think it more likely he was named Dlarbradd.
The Myth Glaurach article also notes, in the footnotes, that
quote:
Dwarf-elf crossbreeds, known as "dwelf" in the singular and "dwelves" in the plural, are noted as having been common in the days of Eaerlann in FR11 – Dwarves Deep, p. 6.
Page 6 of Dwarves Deep says:
quote:
Humans, gnomes, and halflings are cross-fertile with dwarves. Elminster says elves and dwarves can have issue as well. Common in Ardeep, Eaerlann, and Myth Drannor of old, this is unheard-of today.
and
quote:
"Half-dwarves" are not a distinct race. Save for their height (a head taller than most dwarves) all offspring of unions between dwarves and other races look and act (and are treated in the rules) as pureblood dwarves. Dwarven halfbreeds always have the stocky build and hirsute appearance of purebloods.
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Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 20 Jul 2015 23:28:42 |
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TBeholder
Great Reader
2382 Posts |
Posted - 21 Jul 2015 : 01:43:26
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quote:
Originally posted by Jorkens
According to Ed they have facial hair, its been a few years, but he mentioned that for example Jhessail Silvertree sported a moustache at times.
Well, yes. But a lot of elves has traces of human blood.
quote:
And drow were often depicted with large, drooping moustaches in earlier editions.
Same, plus lots of mild fiendish bloodlines, and possibly more (genies?). |
People never wonder How the world goes round -Helloween
And even I make no pretense Of having more than common sense -R.W.Wood
It's not good, Eric. It's a gazebo. -Ed Whitchurch |
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sno4wy
Senior Scribe
USA
466 Posts |
Posted - 21 Jul 2015 : 15:19:53
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| What of the drow and their bloodlines? Is it the same sort of deal with the surface elves, except that demon blood would be accounting for the extra hair growth? |
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TBeholder
Great Reader
2382 Posts |
Posted - 25 Jul 2015 : 14:51:39
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Same as with the surface elves, but the drow generally are more aggressive, inquisitive and perhaps confident than precious snowflakes running in circles at a thought of something else mixing into the Glorious Elven Blood, thus even if half-drow may get a few eyebrows raised, there are going to be strange bloodlines, and of greater variety.
IIRC there was a mention somewhere about common and uncommon eye colors among the drow, and what indicates traces of human or surface-elven blood. |
People never wonder How the world goes round -Helloween
And even I make no pretense Of having more than common sense -R.W.Wood
It's not good, Eric. It's a gazebo. -Ed Whitchurch |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 25 Jul 2015 : 15:03:16
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quote:
Originally posted by sno4wy
What of the drow and their bloodlines? Is it the same sort of deal with the surface elves, except that demon blood would be accounting for the extra hair growth?
Not all drow interbreed with demons (although, like with the elves, some other blood has probably crept into all of theirs over the countless centuries).
Since I have it in my lore that the drow abilities were a 'Blessing from Lolth' (after Corellon cursed them and and made the sun hurtful to them), I just add in that her 'essence' - that she gave to her 'children' - also caused the hair (you know... 'hairy spiders' and all that). It was her own 'demonic contamination' which she spread to them (she altered their genetics to give them those powers).
Nothing canon, of course, but it explains why even the drow that don't truck with demons can grow body/facial hair. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 25 Jul 2015 15:03:46 |
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sfdragon
Great Reader
2285 Posts |
Posted - 25 Jul 2015 : 22:45:54
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one of the thing on elves on the wiki state that elves have no facial hair other than eyebrows, eye lashes and hair. that was it,
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why is being a wizard like being a drow? both are likely to find a dagger in the back from a rival or one looking to further his own goals, fame and power
My FR fan fiction
Magister's GAmbit
http://steelfiredragon.deviantart.com/gallery/33539234 |
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Jorkens
Great Reader
Norway
2950 Posts |
Posted - 26 Jul 2015 : 14:24:19
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| Just curious, is there a published product for FR (or AD&D for that matter) that says clearly that elves dont have facial or body hair? And if so, when was it published? I cant see why they shouldnt, exept for it having become a standard depiction by artists. |
No Canon, more stories, more Realms. |
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader
USA
2708 Posts |
Posted - 27 Jul 2015 : 19:33:16
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| I don't think elves have facial or body hair, or if they do, it's rare. Lucky ducks lol |
Sweet water and light laughter |
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Cyrinishad
Learned Scribe
300 Posts |
Posted - 28 Jul 2015 : 02:35:44
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I'm with Jorkens on this one... Artists draw things the way they want to draw things initially, then as popular imagery develops there can be self-reinforcing effect where artists start producing images that conform to a popular expectation. I've always just thought the lack of body hair in Elven imagery was a visual effect to try and equate their near immortality with a sense of eternal youth.
From a Realms-Lore perspective, unless the elves developed some sort of cultural concept millennia ago, and deliberately went out of their way to eliminate body hair from their gene pool, I don't see any reason why they wouldn't have body hair. Now that I think of it, if all elves were also bald, and missing eyebrows, and eyelashes, I would probably be on board with the "No Body Hair" concept... Of course, if it's laid out in black and white in a sourcebook somewhere that they only have hair on top of their heads, I'll just give it the ol'  and let it be. |
To know, is to know that you know nothing. That is the meaning of true knowledge. -Socrates
Don't cry because it's over. Smile because it happened. -Dr. Seuss |
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader
USA
2708 Posts |
Posted - 28 Jul 2015 : 02:41:37
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| I think the lack of body hair is just part of their racial makeup. They just don't have it. I seem to remember in RotA that Galaeron noted how much body hair the humans had. |
Sweet water and light laughter |
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BenN
Senior Scribe
Japan
382 Posts |
Posted - 28 Jul 2015 : 02:56:28
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quote:
Originally posted by CorellonsDevout
I think the lack of body hair is just part of their racial makeup. They just don't have it. I seem to remember in RotA that Galaeron noted how much body hair the humans had.
This points to it being a matter of degree; IMHO, it's not that the elves have absolutely no body hair at all, it's more that they have very little, compared to hairy humans.
(IRL, my Japanese wife always complains about me being a hairy European; it's not that she has no body hair, more that westerners tend to be hairier than most Japanese people; but there are always exceptions. Is this TMI?  ).
In some FR novels, in scenes where elves find themselves in a scary or tension-filled situation, the authors mention the 'hair on the back of their neck standing up'. So I can well imagine that elves have this kind of tiny body hair, just not the more noticeable & thick body hair that most humans have. |
Edited by - BenN on 28 Jul 2015 02:57:39 |
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader
USA
2708 Posts |
Posted - 28 Jul 2015 : 03:08:57
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| That's true, or their arms sometimes, but I don't think it's noticeable hair. If the elves were in "modern times", they probably wouldn't have to worry about shaving their legs or underarms, for example. I realize shaving those parts is a cultural thing, but you get my point. |
Sweet water and light laughter |
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Topic |
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Elves and Body Hair
