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Barastir
Master of Realmslore
Brazil
1600 Posts |
 Posted - 14 Jul 2015 : 02:01:13
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Hi, sages!
I've been reading the Kara-Tur boxed set lately and I haven't found a reference that connects clerly the Nine Immortals (from the Path entry) with the Nine Travelers (from the Faith of the Nine Travelers entry). The Grand History of the Realms also make me believe they are not the same, but I've seen at least one website that states otherwise. I know Markus and others have worked on Kara-Tur some years ago, have you found this information anywhere, or contacted the authors of the boxed set somehow?
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"Goodness is not a natural state, but must be
fought for to be attained and maintained.
Lead by example.
Let your deeds speak your intentions.
Goodness radiated from the heart."
The Paladin's Virtues, excerpt from the "Quentin's Monograph"
(by Ed Greenwood) |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 14 Jul 2015 : 16:21:54
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WARNING: Much conjecture, speculation, and pure homebrew below.
We know Wo Mai was one of them, and Wo Mai was native to Kara-Tur (Toril). He appears to have been in both groups, going by tiny bits of lore spread all over the place.
Several others are mentioned here and there, and appear to be the same as the Eight Immortals of Chinese Mythology (see 2e's Legends & Lore). That makes both Wo Mai and the number '9' a bit of an enigma.
On the old Kara-Tur project/thread we reasoned that much of the K-T pantheon were originally Chinese deities, while others were local gods that just took on the names of the missing ones. Still others were added, and could have been further interlopers (possibly by the Japanese or other panthoens), or may have simply been Torillian powers subsuming the identity and portfolio of the Chinese gods over time (either absorbed those gods, or became 'conjoined').
Following this logic trail, that means that the Eight Immortals came to K-T*, and they welcomed a NEW, ninth member into their ranks - Wo Mai. Eventually realizing this was neither their world nor their 'time', the other Eight Immortals decided to retire from mortal affairs and gave Wo Mai the task of finding Eight other worthy individuals to take their place as 'protectors of the people'. This new group - which included Wo mai - would have been the Nine Travelers.
Now that I think about it, it may have made more sense to call the originals the travelers (because they traveled from Earth... or some other world where that pantheon originated). I think I just stuck with 'Immortals' because that is what they were called in Chinese mythos, and I wanted to avoid confusion. Whichever way you prefer it, there was a LOT of conjecture there based upon sparse and conflicting lore about those two (three?) groups. The one thing that threw a monkey-wrench into all of this was that in Ronin Challenge it states that the Immortals helped to design the Larang Valleys in the Wu Pi Te Shao mountains, while the Celestial Emperor worked on the rest of Kara-Tur. This would mean that the gods of Kara-Tur were there from the beginning (the creation of Toril), which not only conflicts with our fanlore, but also conflicts with other FR lore (no mention of the War of Light & Darkness, etc). That means they couldn't have been interlopers... or could they?
What if Kara-Tur was a fairly inhospitable wasteland originally? (Think Australia-like terrain). That would mean that the gods of interloping pantheon(s) may have 'tweaked' the geography to better suit the mortals whom they followed to Toril. Thus, the myths referenced in RC would have occurred much more recently then 'The Beginning'. Which brings me to.....
*Interlopers in the Taan: While the Imaskari Magi were very powerful individually, the original empire relied quite a bit on forced labor and servitude of other peoples and races, because their numbers were so low. The Imaskari themselves were 'The Elite' class, while all their conquered territory held the 'dredges' of their society. Even so, as powerful as they were, they could not be everywhere at once, and they risked expanding beyond their ability to control it all.
Then one day, a massisve portal appeared in the northern portion of the empire (in the area of The Cave of a Thousand Gods), and a mass exodus of refugees from a doomed world poured forth - the Anoque people. The Anoque were magically powerful in their own right, and the Imaskari quickly realized that this was a golden opportunity (and also a way to avoid a conflict with a group potentially even more powerful then they). They invited them to settle their northern lands, and become part of their empire. Adding this strange, new magic to their own knowledge, the Imaskari entered a new golden age, and were quick to put down any threats (like the troublesome Taangan tribes that occasionally poured out of the Horse Planes). soon, all their enemies were subdued, and their borders secured.
Of course, this meant that they could once-again start to expand, and for that they would need large numbers of slave labor to work their farms and do other drudgery... and so they embarked on a plan to kidnap large numbers of people from other worlds. We all know how that turned out.
So those Asian deities had come over with their followers (and were also the ones who opened the portal) who were fleeing a world-ending event of their own, and they all made the eastern realms their new home. When the rest of the Imaskari Empire fell to ruin, the few 'pure blood' Anoque began a new empire further east - several, in fact. Anok-Imaskar is considered BOTH the last (3rd) Imaskar Empire AND the 1st Empire of Shou (as of 1e/2e/3e the were on their '3rd' Empire... I also assume there is now a 4th empire as of 4e, but thats speculation for a totally different thread).
So thats it - a whole lot of 'patching' based on some sparse info. There were a LOT more 'fixes' involved in all of that, but thats the stuff relevant to the Nine Immortals and Nine Travelers. So we are talking about maybe 20% canon, 50% conjecture, and some 30% pure homebrew here - take it with a grain of salt. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 14 Jul 2015 22:54:28 |
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6352 Posts |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 14 Jul 2015 : 22:52:06
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That doesn't actually veer from my version, nor canon either. The Padhran (sp?) faith of western Kara-Tur says much the same - that all deities are just ascended mortals, and even include several western deities in the mix (like Bane and Cyric).
I think the western word 'god' is the same as the eastern term 'kami', which simply means 'spirit', or 'something from the spirit-world'. That means anything not of the Prime Material plane. To the Easterners, ALL outsiders are technically 'gods' (what they call kami), even fiends.
I think a lot of people get hung-up on the fact that RW, god = deity, when in D&D, thats not quite true. Primordials, for example, are gods, but not deities. Deities can grant spells to followers, so they are a very specific type of god (and I think that is because their 'mortal soul' - the fact that they ascended to their position - gives them some sort of co-dependent relationship with mortals).
The only 'true god' in the K-T/Oriental pantheon would be Shang-Ti, the Celestial Emperor, and you'll note he isn't called that anywhere in K-T. He is simply referred to as 'the Celestial Emperor' in FR/KT lore, and so he may just be Ao... or someone else.
In my own musings, I had it where Shang-Ti split into 12 separate beings so he could lead his people from their dying world (Crystal Sphere) to other worlds. Thus, our (FR) Celestial Emperor would have only been a mere fragment of the Overgod from that sphere. That explains why that pantheon is so prevalent on so many worlds - even on Earth they would have been interlopers. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 14 Jul 2015 22:54:52 |
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Barastir
Master of Realmslore
Brazil
1600 Posts |
Posted - 15 Jul 2015 : 01:01:35
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Thank you, guys. I've also made the connection between the Eight Immortals of the chinese pantheon (in fact, between the chinese and the Kara-Tur pantheons), MT... And I'll look after these Wo Mai references. Besides, I think the novels of the Empires trilogy also cite the names of gods of the Tuigan and of Shou Lung, and IIRC, the war god is called Huan Ti (or Kuan Ti, of the chinese pantheon), and not Chan Cheng (war deity of the Nine Immortals).
EDIT: I've checked once again my references - the Kara-Tur: the Eastern Realms PDF and the 2e Legends & Lore book. The names of the Nine Immortals do not coincide with the Pa Hsien of the chinese pantheon, nor there are portfolios for the chinese immortals to allow this connection. Besides, at least one of the Nine Immortals - Kwan Ying, IIRC - has a name that greatly resembles one of the chinese deities (this goddess is not among the immortals, though). As for Wo Mai, the references I found say that he is one among "the seven heroes and the seven nonmen", but nothing says he is one of the Immortals or the Travelers - where have you found this link? |
"Goodness is not a natural state, but must be
fought for to be attained and maintained.
Lead by example.
Let your deeds speak your intentions.
Goodness radiated from the heart."
The Paladin's Virtues, excerpt from the "Quentin's Monograph"
(by Ed Greenwood) |
Edited by - Barastir on 19 Jul 2015 02:25:25 |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 22 Jul 2015 : 16:38:52
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Oh, geeze - that was ages ago when we uncovered all that. There is more stuff in the 2e Book of Artifacts, and several other bits scattered in odd places.
IIRC, somewhere it says he was friends with Tan Chin (Ambucher Devyam), but then I think somewhere else it says he fought him later on (there are tons of discrepancies amongst the material). I am not sure if there is anything in Ronin Challenge, where we get further confusing bits about Tan Chin (who is then being called Tsao Choo, unless two separate people had very similar histories that involved 'cities of clay statues').
But as for Wo Mai, someplace he is called one of the nine in text, but I can't recall where, and I can't recall which nine. Some of what I've figure out about him - the part about him being a member of both groups, and the link between them - was homebrewed from the confusing mess that is FR/K-T/Hordelands lore (and then tack-on that the Tempat Larang lore borders Zakara, and it gets even worse).
There is also some hidden, juicy lore in the Hall of Heroes source, under 'Doin Sanhiro' - a character that was supposed to be in a scheduled novel that was canceled. I think all of that only pertains to the psuedo-Japanese regions, though (I only mention it for completeness - K-T/FR stuff is stashed all over the place).
There also a few stray bits in the 1e OA book that never made it into the Kara-Tur material (there is a section in that book that gives an overview of k-T, and there is even an extra province mentioned therein). One again, not pertaining to Wo Mai, but including it for completeness sake.
NOTE: As I write this I am looking through sources, and i think - MAYBE - him being one of the immortals/travelers was extrapoltion by us, to fill-in some gaps. These 'Seven Heroes' we may have figured to be that incomplete group of travellers he was trying to round-up to take the place of the immortals. Like I said, we had several people all digging up stuff from all over the place, and at the same time we were trying to make it all work together in some sort of consistent whole. I KNOW we used the old immortals/new immortals as a way of separating the original Chinese pantheon from the different yet related K-T pantheon (some gods are definitely the same, some are definitely not the same, and most others are 'not sure'). That part was homebrewed as a fix; the part about Wo Mai being an immortal I was sure was canon from somewhere, but now you have me doubting my memory and maybe I am now only 99% sure. We did so many re-writes while we were blending stuff together its hard to keep it all straight. 
EDIT: As an aside, if you look at the stuff about the Acorn of Wo Mai, we had decided to make the Copper Demon of Troos (that arch-fiend that was trapped in it) the same as the 'Assassin of the gods' from the Deities & Demigods sourcebook, just to give us a further connection between K-T and the D&D Chinese pantheon (I say 'D&D' because I can't find that creature in RW myths, so I figure he must be from OA, which WAS K-T). That was just a fun connection to make (and his reptilian visage could lead to all sorts of FR-related theories).
As an aside to the above stuff about Wo Mai, part of my design aesthetic is to blend stuff together, rather then keep it all separate. As much as I respect the 2e (and later 3e) FR designers, I think the one, BIG mistake they made was purposely trying to keep ALL the lore 100% intact, which lead to some pretty ridiculous situations. You don't serve rotten potatoes with Filet Mignon - you get rid of it and serve some new potatoes that preserves the essence of the original meal. Worse case of that is the two Wulgeths - I still bristle over that one. I think they 'jumped the Iakhovas' on that. I understand "respect for the lore that has gone before", but you can go too far with that. On the other hand, having respect is FAR better then just throwing it all away to create some sort of Michael Bey-ish setting {"Explosions, dragon-people, and Cthulhuian terrors, oh my!" Le'sigh}.
So - perhaps - I may have went too far in the other direction and tried to make everything work, and weave it all together - there are a few things I look back on and realize it would have been simpler to keep them separate. I am not a fan of coincidences (especially far-fetched ones), but sometimes a rock is just a rock, and doesn't have to be 'yet another version of the Black Diamond'. Hindsight is a wonderful thing. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 22 Jul 2015 16:55:00 |
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Barastir
Master of Realmslore
Brazil
1600 Posts |
Posted - 23 Jul 2015 : 15:01:13
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| Thank you once again, Markustay. I haven't remembered checking the Hall of Heroes, even if I found about Sanhiro quite recently, and completely forgot about the Book of Artifacts. |
"Goodness is not a natural state, but must be
fought for to be attained and maintained.
Lead by example.
Let your deeds speak your intentions.
Goodness radiated from the heart."
The Paladin's Virtues, excerpt from the "Quentin's Monograph"
(by Ed Greenwood) |
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TBeholder
Great Reader
2384 Posts |
Posted - 23 Jul 2015 : 22:35:44
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quote:
Originally posted by Barastir
Hi, sages!
I've been reading the Kara-Tur boxed set lately and I haven't found a reference that connects clerly the Nine Immortals (from the Path entry) with the Nine Travelers (from the Faith of the Nine Travelers entry).
Why there would be any? |
People never wonder How the world goes round -Helloween
And even I make no pretense Of having more than common sense -R.W.Wood
It's not good, Eric. It's a gazebo. -Ed Whitchurch |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 24 Jul 2015 : 01:38:37
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Because you would think it is the same group being called different things by different sects/religions in the east. The Padhran faith also has its own names for stuff.
Another clue that Wo Mai may have been 'one of the Nine' is that he was part of the 'seven Nonmen', and you could take 'nonmen' to mean an immortal (demi-power). It also seems to imply the 'Seven Heroes' and the 'Seven nonmen' are two separate groups, and he was in both. Except for the number being a little off, I think that may have been one of the things that inspired us to say he was an Immortal AND Traveler.
Also, his exploits are spread over a fairly large swath of the timeline, which would also indicate that he was 'more then mortal' (a hero-god?). |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Barastir
Master of Realmslore
Brazil
1600 Posts |
Posted - 27 Jul 2015 : 01:54:26
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quote:
Originally posted by TBeholder
quote:
Originally posted by Barastir
Hi, sages!
I've been reading the Kara-Tur boxed set lately and I haven't found a reference that connects clerly the Nine Immortals (from the Path entry) with the Nine Travelers (from the Faith of the Nine Travelers entry).
Why there would be any?
As I said in the very first question, there were internet sources that stated otherwise. So, I thought maybe some sage would know of a reference I haven't noticed that made such link.  |
"Goodness is not a natural state, but must be
fought for to be attained and maintained.
Lead by example.
Let your deeds speak your intentions.
Goodness radiated from the heart."
The Paladin's Virtues, excerpt from the "Quentin's Monograph"
(by Ed Greenwood) |
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Razz
Senior Scribe
USA
749 Posts |
Posted - 15 Aug 2015 : 00:12:41
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| Question, has anyone contacted the original writers and sought out their intentions from Kara Tur? Or are they under some sort of NDA from that? (which would be odd...considering if WotC had any real intentions with Kara Tur, they would've done so by now) |
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Barastir
Master of Realmslore
Brazil
1600 Posts |
Posted - 17 Aug 2015 : 13:53:54
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quote:
Originally posted by Razz
Question, has anyone contacted the original writers and sought out their intentions from Kara Tur?
(...)
I particularly haven't found their contacts, don't know about the others...  |
"Goodness is not a natural state, but must be
fought for to be attained and maintained.
Lead by example.
Let your deeds speak your intentions.
Goodness radiated from the heart."
The Paladin's Virtues, excerpt from the "Quentin's Monograph"
(by Ed Greenwood) |
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Kara-Tur - Nine Immortals vs. Nine Travelers
