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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
5376 Posts |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
 Posted - 25 Feb 2018 : 18:04:15
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Well, Evereska existed, even though its not mentioned in the Netheril lore. I am starting to understand why some of the 'luminaries' we've had around here developed an eye-twitch when it came to the Netheril (box) lore - the guy went out of his way to rename stuff. He literally created cities on top of (Ed's) ruins with names different than the ruins. Why would someone do THAT?!
On the other hand, as I 'line-up' stuff on the maps, I have found one very interesting little detail - there is a hill just to the west of Shadowdale called "Oakwood Knoll". It happens to be in the exact spot the Netherese settlement of Monikar was!
And Monikar was a magic-HATING settlement of Netheril... how odd. They even had a subterranean temple of Kozah!!! Now, why would a storm/sky god want a temple in the Underdark? Its almost as if this was a completely different aspect of another god. 
Oh... and they had non-magical devices - purchased from DWARVES - they gave them flight capabilities. 
Personally, I'd re-spin that as gnomes... and even then its still.. odd.
When it comes to FR/D&D lore and mapping, some people say I have the attention span of a gnat. This simply isn't true - I ENVY gnats for their attention spans.  |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 25 Feb 2018 18:04:51 |
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
5376 Posts |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 25 Feb 2018 : 19:01:41
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I probably have more 'canon' info on Everesa than is available to 'the masses', since Eric Boyd went to great lengths to flesh Evereska out for his High Forest book (and I even re-drew the map of Evereska for him). I should check my (HIS) own notes on the matter. The weird thing is, it was 'off the map' on the regional map I did, but he needed to work-out all the details because of the all the Elven kingdoms that existed IN The High Forest. I had planned an extension of that map (the maps of both his projects sync-up on a MUCH larger canvas - and show a LOT more than even he ever got to see LOL) that would show Evereska as well, but then he stopped working on it.
I plan to keep most of the Netheril stuff - it doesn't make sense to completely overhaul it. The two sets of names for stuff is easily reconcilable - the original names were in Netherese, and that's the names we usually see on the ruins. When Larloch was talking to Szass Tam, he was automatically translating the names into their modern equivalents. It really is that simple. Oh, and one 'extra fix' - the word 'Shade' comes directly from Netherese, which is why that 'nickname' was also used during Netheril. In other words, 'we' got it from 'them'. 
I changed my mind back to dwarves. I have a good idea for Monikar - they didn't hate magic... they hated Arcane Magic. It even specifically says that they were heavily influenced by dwarves in the area. Rune Magic - the same stuff that kept the cities aloft in the Cloud Kingdom! THAT could explain the weird, non-magical flying contraptions. If we DO look at it from Larloch's PoV (as we should), they had NO magic, because HE had zero understanding of Rune-based magic. More tie-ins for my Thaeravel lore! 
Thus, Monikar became 'not a thing' after the dwarves left Tethyamar. Its interesting that it is under a mound now - was it buried on-purpose?
Also, I truly wish I had been around when Eric and George (and Ed, and Steven, etc.) used to hash-out all the history 'in the background', because geography has a big impact on that, and I think those guys - brilliant as they are - may have missed a few things. For example, why would the greater percentage of surviving 'low Netherese' have become barbarians? At least three different 'kinds', too. The Bedine thing I already worked-out a fix for, but we still have the group that traveled up to Hartsvale (because when you are trying to escape a suddenly inhospitable land, the brightest thing to do is head into an even MORE inhospitable land), and also the folks who joined the Rengart(sp?)
If you had those three survivor states there - and the desert sure as hell didn't 'happen overnight' - the folks had PLENTY OF TIME to settle nice areas, and NOT be 'barbarians. The survivors literally had a choice - nice lifestyle in lovely regions, or become subsistence-level hunter-gatherers living in extremely inhospitable areas. And here I thought the Netherese were 'smart'. It almost appears that after the Weave collapsed, all the IQs were reduced to about 3 or so. 
NO - they pushed east, which is VERY evident by that survivor-state map. There were a couple of Netherese settlements already in The Dalelands, and several more appeared during the survivor-state period. That's indicative of the Dales having been settled by the ex-Netherese, over-time. It took several centuries for the desert to push to where it is today - plenty of time for the people to keep moving out of the way. Then they would have also had to have pushed into the Moonsea area - probably starting around Daggerdale and Zhentil Keep - as the 'monster realms' fell (the People of the Black Sails, and whatever else was going on up there). The original format of 'The Dales' may have even been refugee camps setup by the elves (not because they're 'nice guys', but to keep watch over them... like disobedient beasts).
I never liked the whole "Cormyr was settled from Impiltur" thing because it never made much sense to me, geographically. Its all wrong. However, there are a LOT of indications that the Impultarran settlers were running into already-existing human settlements the further north they pushed (like Eveningstar, or Arabel). So we basically had 'new blood' landing on the shores of a place that already had a few human outposts (only in the north, where the elves permitted); settlements of tired and war-weary folk from Low Netheril. This would help explain Cormyr's rapid growth. The Impilturrans were only half the picture - the existing Netherese survivors (who were mostly in actuality Thaeravel survivors, since southern Netheril was Thaeravel which they annexed) were already there, but disorganized (and the elves kept it that way). The Impultarrans brought with them a new sense of propose and destiny, which shifted the paradigm (and annoyed the elves, which is covered in the novels). |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 25 Feb 2018 19:46:51 |
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
5376 Posts |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 25 Feb 2018 : 20:50:39
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You do realize 'Seventon' (the original 'realm') is at the same latitude as The Tortured Lands, right? WAY north of the Moonsea and even Thar. It was just barely below the southern edge of Sossal (latitude-wise)! That's why I think that the Fall of the Weave (and Netheril) interrupted something else that was effecting weather, or perhaps interrupted something that was already interrupting a weather changing effect. For example, suppose the Giants of Jothûn - an Ostoria survivor-state - finally figured out how to do a ritual that would dampen the effects of Ulutiu's necklace? So a nice chunk of territory begins to 'warm up' for them, and keep the glacier at bay for a thousand years or so. Then the Weave comes crashing down and the magic runs amok - all that 'stored up' cold that's been holding back sweeps down and starts freezing everything like crazy.
I'm not saying I would use that (in fact, I already hate it, because I don't think Rune Magic should be Weave-dependent), but those are the lines I am thinking along here something was holding back all that cold-magic, until the Weave fell. It may have even been something the Netherese themselves did (although I think it should predate them, since they settled around Seventon, which was right on the edge of the High Ice, which was water at the time. So maybe post-giants but pre-Netheril. The Ogres supposedly had a Kingdom up in Thar, although that's quite a leap saying they would have been that powerful (Orcs also say they had a kingdom there - maybe Gruumsh, in his Kozah aspect?) Thar is pretty central to the area I see being 'de-iced' for a time.
But lets talk about Rivers. I like rivers. I know some people don't, because it interferes with all the fantasy explanations for stuff (because rivers are where REAL settlements belong). I just discovered a NEW river. Or rather, just realized two major rivers used to be one. After superimposing the maps, I realized that the Ashaba used to be a MUCH more 'major' river, and began in the High Ice, or what was The Narrow Sea back in the day. It cuts right through the mountains there and on over into Shadowdale. Once I layered all the maps, it becomes plain as day. Now its divided into the (lower) Ashaba River, and the River of Gems that runs through Anauroch. When Basin Lake (and Lake Miir) dried-up, they became 'unconnected'. This explains all those small rivers running out of the Desertmouth Mountains (you can see where they go on the Netheril map). |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
5376 Posts |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 25 Feb 2018 : 21:35:03
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Thanks to an old post by Dalor Darden, I found it...
quote:
–2465 DR
The elves of Lethyr use High Magic to stop the spread of the Great Glacier southward and to regulate temperatures, thereby preserving their forest home and surrounding lands.
Thats at least one example of 'weather tampering' in regards to the far north of the Glacier(s).
I'm 'drawing a bead' elsewhere though - there is literally a circle of 'unfrozen' land where The Great mount of Ghaethluntar is. Hmmmmmm...
ED:Tquote:
Originally posted by dazzlerdal
The rivers thing really confused me. I'm not certain but I think the Netheril boxed set had the river flowing south to north but the Anauroch boxed set had it flowing the opposite way around. I split it in two and around about the same level as the scimitar spires it flows south to north up to the Narrow Sea and also north to south down to the Dalelands.
When the desert forms it changes all that with a huge glacier growth and accumulation of sand and other magical oddities that cause the river to flow north to south the entire way. But I was never much of a geographer so I'm happy to alter things if someone can come up with a better explanation of what is going on. I can try and find the quotes that say which way the water is flowing and then see what can be explained.
You'd be surprised by how many 'intelligent' people I have run into (doing maps, etc.) that think rivers flow INLAND from the coast. They think that the water moves from the sea to the land, instead of vice-vers.
It boggles the mind.
But as for that river, it clearly runs all the way from the Narrow Sea (which itself formed from glacial run-off), down to the lake(s) that were in the survivor states, through the mountains (there is even a pass there), and hooks up with the Ashaba.
Going through old threads trying to find WHAT was up in the Tortured Lands, Ed mentions 'ancient lost kingdoms' from a time before humans became prevalent (Not saying some of them weren't human - just a time predating human 'supremacy'). Something about Mount Ghaethluntar has always bugged me - its just sitting there all by itself. Mountains do NOT form like that. And its riddled with tunnels and caverns.
There are some truly (pre-human) 'dwellings' in K-T as well, over in Guge, that look like 'honey-combed mountains', that are very similar to ant-hills designed by something roughly human-sized. I've linked those to eastern drow, but perhaps they are even old than the drow. Some sort of fey-mounds? Although Ghaethluntar - if it is one - would have to be the largest one ever recorded in the Prime Mate4ial (AFAIK). |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 25 Feb 2018 22:21:03 |
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
5376 Posts |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 25 Feb 2018 : 22:22:42
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quote:
Originally posted by dazzlerdal
Spellweaver ruin by the monument of the ancients (although i could be a few thousand miles out as that map was the wrong way up)
Plus, that map is also using the warped 3e topology.
It would be MUCH further left (off the northern edge of the map) than the MotA map shows. I also just noticed that map is missing the village of Bluestone, which should be at that intersection just above the double 'oo' in Moonsea North. Tsk Tsk
The 'effect' seems to be centered some hundred miles NE of Ghaethluntar, almost right in the middle between that mountain and the Sunrise (Taurax) Mountains, but its easily reconcilable. First off, meta-gaming, they 'twisted' a lot of the north from Ed's originals because of Vaasa & Damara. Secondly, the Phaerimm's life-draining effect seems to also 'suck up' warmth as well (I think they are like vampires but the what they 'drink' is the ultraviolet spectrum of energy), so what we may have here is two (or more) effects 'conflicting', throwing the center-point off.
In other words, Ulutiu's necklace freezes the whole of the north (giants go bye bye). Then certain groups do what they can to either counter or 'turn off' the effect within a set region, like the Lethyr elves. Lets say Ghaethluntar is tied to one such effect. That means the 'de-icing' effect from it should spread at least another 150 miles SW. What we see there (on the FRIA and Fonstad maps) is a circle that's been 'flattened' on one side - what I assume to be the Phaerimm's "Life-Draining Magics" countering the warming 'magic' or whatever is going on there.
And it may not even be magic - it could be natural volcanism at play. If Ghaethluntar is a dormant volcano, and the whole area is filled with hot springs and other geothermal activity, that could explain it as well (Nature has its own magic). |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 25 Feb 2018 22:42:18 |
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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore
Australia
6064 Posts |
Posted - 26 Feb 2018 : 02:00:38
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The dichotomy of Low Netheril and High Netheril is the key to "explaining" much of what occurred to that realm. I have many thoughts, but most are in the "spitballing" stage. If you both come to GENCON we can talk about this stuff for hours!
-- George Krashos |
"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus |
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
5376 Posts |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 26 Feb 2018 : 18:42:19
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I wish I could, but this is probably my brokest year ever. Seriously - my total projected income this year is $50.
EDIT:
Need help again - anyone have a hard-copy of the Anauroch map? Once again, I can't really read the map-key. Most of them I can easily figure-out, but the first three mountain terrains - I can't read the secondary print there (I assume its the heights of the different mountain types).
Also, I was looking back over my semi-old Map of the Eastern Heartlands, and I thought I had gotten the two terrain-types for desert mixed-up, but it turns out, the Anauroch map itself got it wrong (I should have figured my research back then wouldn't let me make such a novice mistake)*. I've been meaning to post an updated version of that map, but I didn't because my main project was going to cover the same region. Had I know my main project would be delayed by almost two years I would have just gone for it. That map was missing a few settlements.
*The Plain of Standing Stones IS the 'badlands' type terrain, and the rest - except for the High Ice - is the 'sandy' type of desert. The official map would have you thinking otherwise (if I am reading that map key correctly). |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 26 Feb 2018 19:33:07 |
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
5376 Posts |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 27 Feb 2018 : 00:20:28
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OR... it could have just been a stupid mistake.
The river passes through the mountains. Its clear as day to me
I did move the connecting piece south (from where I can see it on the super-imposed maps), so as to line-up better with the pass through the mountains you can see on the survivor-state map (there's a trail there that leads to the Tower of Ashaba). Interesting that Anauria has a trail leading to a drow stronghold, no? You don't build roads to people you are trying to avoid.
That same map doesn't show the river connection (because it ceased to exist after the Fall), but considering how off other things are on it (like the lake that's completely in the wrong spot - water ALWAYS travels to the lowest point it can reach, and the damn depression - where the lake was in Nethril - is RIGHT THERE), I have no problem nudging it a bit south, rather than create TWO passages through the mountains, right near each other. In fact, it makes perfect sense the 'new' trail followed the old, dry riverbed.
I also only just learned that river didn't get named 'Ashaba' until after a water-wizard merged himself with the river. The tower was HIS (after he defeated the drow the first time). So the whole thing - from its humble beginnings on the Narrow sea, right on to where it empties into the Dragon Reach at Scardale - was probably all called The River of Gems during the time of Netheril.
And I am starting to like the idea the Battle of Bones IS something fairly new. In fact, I'm almost sure of it at this point. Despite the backstory in the EE booklet (which are all notoriously 'erroneous' when it comes to FR's history), I think it began as a shattered enclave that rained-down in that area. However, because of the condition (and 'spread') of it, I was say it exploded while still high in the air. I know of at east one Flying Enclave that did that (I have to look it up). It would also go a LONG way in explaining some of the oddness in that region (including chaotic magical fluctuations).
EDIT:
Dubloon would make an interesting choice. Jockteleg could be another. Tenish has possibilities, especially considering it wasn't in the Netheril boxed set. There are a few others named in LEoF but not in the boxed set, but I could has sworn reading about one that actually exploded pre-Fall.
I also just came across the name of yet another 'lost kingdom' - Apothecs. I now have a name for my pre-Halaster Thaeravel people. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 27 Feb 2018 03:05:52 |
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TomCosta
Forgotten Realms Designer
USA
738 Posts |
Posted - 27 Feb 2018 : 01:42:31
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| The three mountains on the Anauroch map are from top to bottom: "Mountains (high), Mountains (medium), Mountains (low)" and then onto Foothills and Rolling Hills, etc. |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 27 Feb 2018 : 03:04:54
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Thank you, Tom.  |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
5376 Posts |
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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore
Australia
6064 Posts |
Posted - 27 Feb 2018 : 13:39:46
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quote:
Originally posted by dazzlerdal
I dont remember the dates but the twisted tower was not always drow occupied. The elves of cormanthyr cleared it out and anauria may have had the trail created during that time.
There was also a trail leading from basin lake through the mountains but it would have led to the human settlements in the cleared land around the river tesh (between cormanthor and rystall wood).
The rystall wood was for info created when a big meteor slammed into one of the three elven kingdoms in cormanthyr (the one with the famous library) which burned a big swathe of forest down along the river. This gap was widened later by the spider fires.
Cormanthyr reclaimed the Twisted Tower in -331 DR and lost it again in 194 DR. Perfect match with the rise of the Survivor States.
-- George Krashos |
"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus |
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
5376 Posts |
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Demzer
Senior Scribe
769 Posts |
Posted - 27 Feb 2018 : 20:46:32
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Can someone give me any source or insight into the People of the Black Sails? I keep seeing them mentioned from time to time on these boards but I've never been able to find much.
On Ghaethluntar, I have it as an enormous volcano with a family of red dragons covertly ruling over an empire of flinds (the flind part comes from Polyhedron 81, for the volcano and red dragons part I can't find my sources ...). |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 28 Feb 2018 : 02:46:30
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IIRC, it was only mentioned in the 2e Moonsea source, and that was it. there was no elaboration, as far as I recall. I just now reread the 'Brief History' section, and although not specifically label that way (that must be form somewhere else), this is what it says:
quote:
In the year 400 DR, the Year of the Blue Shield, it was. On a night later called the First Turnabout, the forces of the Dark Alliance swept down on the backs of black dragons and attacked Northkeep. What's more, a huge fleet of their black ships with ragged sails sacked and destroyed Northkeep.
After the attack, 40,000 humanoid priests, mages, and shamans stood on the shore of the Moonsea and chanted desperately to their gods. They must have been heard, because with a deafening crack, the city sank beneath the purple waves.
If I had to guess, I would say that's when the Ogre-kingdom of Thar and the Orc Kingdom of Vastar united under one banner. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 28 Feb 2018 : 06:46:10
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On the comment above - I think there was an older source that actually said, "People of the Black Sails" - it may have been in the 1e/2e CG's even (I've checked every possible Moonsea source I could think of).
Onto my never-ending quest to find the (geographic) truth... Orifin & Orolin. It gets even better. Looking at my super-imposed maps (I've added like 6 more now), Orifin falls out EXACTLY on top of Canlespiere (a Netherese settlement), which used to be the Ogre city of Canth. So I have to keep Orifin and Orilin separate, otherwise we have, "Orolin, formerly Orofin, formerly Canlespiere, formerly Chanth". I can't do much about three of them, but Orolin was far enough away from orifin (and on the wrong side of mountains) so I can at least fix that. The city was Canlespiere (a city, BTW, they 'stole' from ogres, because it was so nice... and the Netherese had a hard time taking it, too... those were some pretty nifty ogres!) had to be the ruin now known as Orifin, and because of that, I can connect it to Orilin, just by saying it was a case of mistaken identity by the folks who discovered the ruins (they thought they had found Orilin... which they didn't even spell right). So now, there's never really been an 'Orofin' - it was just a scholarly error marked on some older maps.
I am trying something new here - gonna do the survivor state locales in my usual (black) icons, but I am going to color 'defunct' red, and 'future' blue, so that people can see how everything fell-out over time. I started out doing it all black, so now I have to change the flying enclaves. That minor, though. I think the little extra will be worth it.
So now we got us a group of what appears to be a fairly advanced (and well-organized) group f ogres, being chased out of Netheril (it took SEVEN YEARS!), just before we have the rise of an advance 'ogre Realm' just to the NE. We can easily fudge things to say the city of Chanth was the 'capital' of a realm of Chanth, so we can get better numbers... ermmm..
Nevermind. I just checked the dates (stupid Netheril-reckoning!) I forgot that source dates things differently - it happened in -2856 DR; WAY too far back to be useful to us. However, it does indeed establish a 'superior breed of ogres' living in the North in the distant past (Irda?) |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 28 Feb 2018 06:59:32 |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 01 Mar 2018 : 01:51:29
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So I'm looking at the 'Backdrop Daggerdale' article in Dungeon #192, and can't help but wonder why someone who actually knew a little something about the place hadn't written the article.
Obviously, neither the author of cartographer had access to the Forgotten Realms Interactive Atlas. Its probably THE most crowed small region outside of Cormyr, in regards to 'locales and sites of interest', and nary a mention of ANY of them. Its as if the article was written just by using the old Dalelands source (map and all).
So annoying... I was hoping to find some new goodies. I should have known better than to seek an early 4e article (in the beginning, they seem to have taken the 'lore lite' approach to an extreme). Thank goodness I manage to get a couple of nifty things off of the Monument of the Ancients maps - the 4e material seemed to have gotten somewhat 'fluffier' over time.
On the flipside, I don't think I've had this much fun playing with maps in quite some time - I really like this 'multi-edition' approach. I feel like I am uncovering buried secrets. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore
Australia
6064 Posts |
Posted - 02 Mar 2018 : 12:37:38
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Hey Mark, I was just trawling through Ed's "Elminster in Hell" and found that the Lost Peaks in the High Forest have a name: "Alander" (p.243 - hardcover). Ed just keeps sneaking this stuff in. Cheers.
-- George Krashos |
"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus |
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My maps
