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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11691 Posts |
 Posted - 30 Sep 2017 : 00:43:13
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quote:
Originally posted by Adhriva
Good point. Perhaps magic, as part of the burial rights, wards against such. Maybe necromancy works on those who have been dead long enough (bones rotted away to calcium deposits which aren't magically protected), wasn't given said ritual rights, and/or part of the necromantic art requires circumvention as a foundation for all the spells (and being a largely forbidden school, the burial rights aren't updated at the same pace) depending on the kind of dead raised.
In the West, cemeteries came to widespread use specifically because of the Christian belief of resurrection. We see cemeteries outside and beyond that, but that certainly popularized it. A deities' blessing in a world like FR over the dead could go a long way towards prevention. If an early deity oversaw that aspect and was killed, passed their power off, etc. in an event that wasn't recorded then it might have become a widespread tradition that, outside of arcane and historical circles, hasn't been given a reason to question if it still works until that rare necromancer comes along.
I thought it was in the old 1e Lords of Darkness, but I don't see it there.... but somewhere they specifically talked about this that most dead have certain spells cast upon them to prevent the re-rising as undead. That being said, the degree that this works may vary based on the spell used. For instance, low level clerics may only be able to prevent skeleton/zombie creation, but if some more powerful necromancer comes along things are still open.
Keeping the body around might have started with folks just wanting to hold onto the hope that they could find someone to raise their family member from the dead (because the lesser spells require the body intact).
Also, cemeteries themselves may be formed because maybe rather than blessing the dead body (or maybe in addition to it) they actually plant the body in ground consecrated to a god, and doing so may prevent the raising of the dead without someone physically exhuming each dead body. This might mean grave robbers happen, but in general they'll likely get caught, and if the punishment matches the crime (i.e. grave robbers are deliberately animated as undead set to guard cemeteries?), it may actually curb this. Also, some cultures may see the raising of undead as emergency defenders of the living to be a viable method of defending towns (I can see some clergy of Tempus being perfectly fine with it to defend a town , so long as the dead are then put back in their graves afterward... hell, even priests of Helm may see this as viable)
This being said, evil cultures of humanoids may see no problem with animating their own dead. It may not be a cultural taboo. Thus, we may actually find that a lot of undead skeletons/zombies are actually goblins, orcs, ogres, etc... |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Zeromaru X
Great Reader
Colombia
2442 Posts |
Posted - 30 Sep 2017 : 02:25:19
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quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos
They don't bury dead in Impiltur. Everyone gets cremated. The "Cleansing Fire" of the Triad.
-- George Krashos
I can feel this more true after the Spellplague, when demons came and people just "Undead armies? Nope. Just nope." |
Instead of seeking change, you prefer a void, merciless abyss of a world... |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 30 Sep 2017 : 04:49:03
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The problem, Sleyvas (and everyone else), that in The Haunted Lands, a nation pretty-much overrun with necromancers (and undead everywhere, even before Szass Tam took over), they were burying their dead. TWICE Szass Tam took major military targets simply by raising the dead within the city walls. It was that easy... and there was ZERO resistance to his magic. Of course, he also made Bane his b***h in that same book.
Oh, and he was doing this stuff WHILE the Spellplague made magic go wonky.. so that was in his 'nerfed' condition (don't want to give too much away, but the first time he did the 'dead within the walls' thing was before his Cosmic McGuffin happened, so that can't be why he was casting with almost no problems).
Anyhow, that series aside, it doesn't matter. Its the one big thing thats always bothered me about Waterdeep - they have a sleeping army of enemies within the walls (and at least once, its become a problem... yet they still do it). The only place ebil Wizards should be able to 'raise dead' is on old battlefields, where a lot of folks died without the proper rights. After all, shouldn't at least a few dozen gods be getting REALLY angry whenever some archomancer does this? Tam was even summoning the spirits of ancient dead... shouldn't they have been in their gods realms?
I really hate undeath... too many holes in it for my liking. Thanks for clearing that up, Krash - I wasn't going to do one anyways (the 'Barrowfields' are just north of that city anyway, so I figure if there was a cemetery, it could be 'just off the map' in that direction).
Next nitpick - FR settlements have WAY too may people. Compare it to GH, or just about any other RPG setting, or even RW Middle-ages. FR seems to have really embraced the whole 'citystate' thing much more than any other setting I know. That's why FR is also just about the only setting I know with 'soft borders', in most places. Seems it had points of Light before WotC ever came up with that term; true 'nations' are few and far between. And I am only complaining because MAN, do i have to draw a LOT of buildings. 
Ya know... because I actually do the math and figure-out things like population densities. I never realized that was a big deal until I worked on Daggerford... even with increasing the scale the place was still not right. Damn you, FR, and your INSANE urban populations. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 30 Sep 2017 15:29:07 |
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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore
Australia
6643 Posts |
Posted - 30 Sep 2017 : 09:50:36
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Ancient Rome had a population of 1 million.
And Waterdeep's 'City of the Dead' hasn't got thousands of corpses in it. Most are in extra-dimensional demiplanes.
-- George Krashos |
"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus |
Edited by - George Krashos on 30 Sep 2017 10:02:11 |
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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore
Australia
6643 Posts |
Posted - 30 Sep 2017 : 10:02:52
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Ancient Rome had a population of 1 million.
-- George Krashos |
"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus |
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Nilonim
Acolyte
16 Posts |
Posted - 30 Sep 2017 : 12:41:19
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The city itself!
quote:
Originally posted by sfdragon
the city itself ? or the empire?
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 30 Sep 2017 : 15:49:07
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That was an exception, not 'the rule'. We also had Constantinople (pretty-much my favorite ancient city).
But Waterdeep isn't even the biggest - its only like 5th largest, or some-such.
Realistically, a 'nation' (I use that term loosely, because in FR, it IS a pretty loose definition) should only have one, maybe two major cities, during such a time period. I suppose one might argue this makes FR 'more realistic', in that the presence of monsters (and 'evil races') cause people to cluster more. Its hard to figure-out the societies that would form in a fantasy situation, though.
I probably should have started a new scroll for this, but I may as well continue my train of thought - I've been trying to think of a good place where something like pre-unification Italy could be happening, with sovereign states making up a psuedo-nation, of sorts. I used to think of Sembia, or Amn, because of the economic factors ('Merchant of Venice'), but really, the only country that actually fits that scenario was Thay, before Szass Tam did a whammy on it. Countries of citystates aren't quite the same thing (that was a precursor to what happened in Italy, with the borders of the 'ruling cities' extending until they touched the borders of other powerful cities). I'm almost thinking Imaskar went through a period like this, with lots of smaller, semi-autonomous states all around them. The key factor here (for Italy and Thay), though, is that the member-states don't like each other, and even fight amongst themselves. Once again, citystates aren't precisely the same situation (although it looked like Chessenta was moving in that direction, but lord knows whats going on there now). |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 30 Sep 2017 15:50:11 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 30 Sep 2017 : 16:41:51
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
That was an exception, not 'the rule'. We also had Constantinople (pretty-much my favorite ancient city).
And remember: every gal in Constantinople lives in Istanbul, not Constantinople, so if you have a date in Constantinople, she'll be waiting in Istanbul. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 30 Sep 2017 : 17:08:59
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
That was an exception, not 'the rule'. We also had Constantinople (pretty-much my favorite ancient city).
And remember: every gal in Constantinople lives in Istanbul, not Constantinople, so if you have a date in Constantinople, she'll be waiting in Istanbul.
Thats okay, I live in Byzantium, so we''ll never run into each other.  |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 30 Sep 2017 17:09:31 |
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Cards77
Senior Scribe
USA
745 Posts |
Posted - 09 Oct 2017 : 03:40:44
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
[quote]Originally posted by Markustay
That was an exception, not 'the rule'. We also had Constantinople (pretty-much my favorite ancient city).
And remember: every gal in Constantinople lives in Istanbul, not Constantinople, so if you have a date in Constantinople, she'll be waiting in Istanbul.
Thats okay, I live in Byzantium, so we''ll never run into each other.
Hello! I am getting ready to have a custom map printed for our gaming room. I was wondering if you could recommend a map version for us?
We play in 3rd edition 1350s to 1370s. I need a version that looks nice but is also functional (has most if not all locations).
It will be hanging on the wall both as art and as reference.
Of course happy to pay any artist to whom you may think meet those requirements 
Thank you! |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 09 Oct 2017 : 18:15:28
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Mike Schley's maps are beautiful, but none of them show all of Faerū,. I've never completed any of my own 'all of Faerun' maps either.
I'm not sure which I would use for something like that - the FRIA maps are the most complete but ugly as sin, and the 3e campaign map is very much 'incomplete' (hardly any locales on it, aside from major cities), and its all just plain 'wrong' at this point.Iwas reworking my map of the western Heartlands awhile back, but that still wouldn't show the south or the east.
The most complete maps of Faerun that have the most information are the Fonstad atlas ones, and they're just B&W. Plus, no-one has ever done a 'perfect' job piecing it all together (I would love to see WotC post the original, intact map someday - they must have it somewhere). I suppose if you could get a REALLY good scan of the 2e campaign setting maps those are nice, but far from perfect. Until I finish the remapping of the Realms I am working on (and at least a year from completing), there really is no 'complete map of the Realms' - even the FRIA is super out-of-date at this point. Sorry.
You might just be better-off buying a litho of the western heartlands from Mike Schley's site, for now. Not a whole lot of information, but pretty as hell. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Zeromaru X
Great Reader
Colombia
2442 Posts |
Posted - 27 Nov 2017 : 22:52:55
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Quoted from the other topic
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
BTW, Zero, it was the 5th edition continental map I believe you were waiting most eagerly for, correct? I got the better part of it done yesterday. The thing that stopped me the last time was Mike Schley's new take on Chult (which had just come out), and I was awaiting to see if they were going to do anything 'to the right' (east) of that before I moved forward (which I thought there was a good chance of, since Ed is doing things in the Lapaliiya region).
I'm interested in this, indeed. Well, while I'm interested in the whole of Faerūn, I'm mostly awaiting for the Old Empires area map, as my I have a lot of ideas for a campaign in that region.
I'm even tempted to do a DM's Guild product with those, despite my bad english. |
Instead of seeking change, you prefer a void, merciless abyss of a world... |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 28 Nov 2017 : 00:25:00
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Your English sounds just fine to me. In fact, I'm from NY, and at the risk of sounding like an A-hole, I've heard FAR WORSE, nearly everyday of my life.
I'd like to work WITH you on a DMsGuild project concerning the Nentir Vale conversion - I think our skillsets and knowledge complement each other (I've rarely seen someone with your level of organizational skills... mine are *bleh*).
As for the 5e map, I found it was a wee bit more complex than doing the 4e map. The 5e maps have much more conjecture (outside of the Western Heartlands, and even there I've tweaked things), and rather than just erasing stuff from my 3e-era map to get the 4e map, now I have to overlap those two and do an 'in-between' thing, without much reference, and have to put things BACK, rather than take them away. Whereas for the 4e map I merely erased sections of the continental outline and simply modded my layer masks, I have to create land and sea (and a 3rd one I realize now, just for swamps) channels whole-cloth. That's the only way to properly apply effects in GIMP.
Plus, as I stated in the other thread, I wanted to wait and see what other maps Mike Schley came out with before I moved forward. I really like his Chult map - it extends a bit further north than Chult did in 1e/2e, which is a bit reminiscent of the 3e map (which is fine). I've also managed to compromise on the whole 'is it an island or is it connected' thing for chult itself. Technically its an island... technically. The channel is so narrow, however, it may as well just be a river. I'm also thinking there's a bridge now, but that might be a bit much (one owned and controlled by the scalyfolk - they summoned a giant serpent and petrified it... they've done it before).
I also managed to keep the connections between the Alamber Sea and the Golden Waters (actually, in 4e it was the Alamber and the Shining Sea, but that's changed). I am picturing a Mulhorand owned (but Shou built and maintained) canal in the Azulduth (Lake of Salt). There is even a new settlement there called YanHu City, which is mostly a Shou town, where the Shou engineers and workers live, so that they can maintain the nearby canal. Problem is, the deal Shou-Lung made with Mulhorand was that they would build the canal and provide all the workers for it, so long a they were able to control it and charge for its use for one hundred years. Since that time, the Shou have 'settled in', and the century deadline is approaching. Mulhorand has on several occasions asked the Shou about working on 'turnover plans' between the two empires, relinquishing control of the canal back to them as per their arrangement. Thus far, the Shou are completely ignoring them. I see this becoming a BIG problem when the date actually hits in a few years.
The Shou also control a very large canal (and aqueduct) they built connecting their river system to Gbor Nor, in Semphar. Semphar has now become a vassal-state of theirs, much to the chagrin of everyone else (including the Semphari). No-one seems to understand how the draconic leaders have allowed this to come to be. Part of the problem was that Kara-Tur exodus during the spellplague - Semphar's population is nearly half Shou at this point. That, plus the Shou Emperor went right around Semphar and made a deal with the Tuigan, since the Tuigan ostensibly 'owned' Semphar since the Tuigan Wars (the Tuigan of Kourmira had been in disarray since the disappearance of Obadai, son of Yamun Khahan, and they eagerly gave Semphar to the Shou for certain concessions). Besides, Semphar had stopped paying tribute to the Tuigan just a few years after the war anyway, so it was no lose for them, and with Obadai gone, they've fallen back to their old ways, mostly.
All Homebrew, of course. I'm just explaining some stuff I imagine going on in the last century. There is something very 'dark' going on in Kara-Tur these days. There is something going on there 'in the background' between the Celestial Dragons of Kara-Tur and the draconic rulers of Semphar, but I'm going to just leave that bit 'open to interpretation'. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 28 Nov 2017 03:28:15 |
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Zeromaru X
Great Reader
Colombia
2442 Posts |
Posted - 28 Nov 2017 : 01:10:07
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And I was thinking my obsession with organizing stuff was unhealthy. Count me in for your project, of course.
As for your Shou town, will the fact that Mulhorand was disolved for a century affect things? Perhaps the Shou reached a new deal with the Imaskari, and now the Mulhorandi had to re-negotiate the deal, because, legally speaking, maybe now the deal with the Imaskari is null and void, but the old deal with the Mulhorandi has been null and void from a century. If the Shou wanted it, they can legally say "this is our turf, because we've been living here and the Imaskari acknowledge our sovereignty for a whole century after you guys bit the dust. Get out and never return". |
Instead of seeking change, you prefer a void, merciless abyss of a world... |
Edited by - Zeromaru X on 28 Nov 2017 01:12:54 |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 28 Nov 2017 : 04:03:39
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Hmmmmmm... forgot all about that. LOL
I suppose I could actually blame the Shou ignoring the Mulhorandi on THAT. That works for me, actually. After Mulhorand-proper ceased to exist (and High Imaskar took its place), they felt the deal was no longer valid. During the Imaskri rule, the Shou got along fine with the Imaskari (after all, Tan Chin IS Imaskari), and both parties just continued to honor the original deal. What would have happened if the Imaskari weres till in charge when the deadline hit is open for debate, but since they also went bye-bye, the Shou feel they don't owe anyone anything. The returned Mulhorandi don't look at it that way - they feel the original deal should still be valid. In fact, it never even occurred to them that it wouldn't be.
Thus it stands, with both parties feeling they are in the right. Shou Lung doesn't recognize the 'new' Mulhorand Empire as the old one, and have no intentions of giving up on their settlement and canal. I suppose to make this all work, I will have to push the 'start date' back a bit, into the tail-end of 3e, so that Mulhorand was still around (I could tie it to that GHotR entry that says the Shou Emperor visited Mulhorand). That would mean I'd have to make it more than a century, like 120 years instead. Maybe that number has more significance to the Shou, or maybe they just wanted it to end on an even number (1500 DR). Not that either one of them use Dalereckoning. LOL
As for Tan Chin, I mentioned him for a reason. I am going to use most of the history ('future' history?) I had done in the old K-T thread, which includes him possessing one of the Shou twins and becoming emperor (again). Tu'Lung fell into a three-way Civil War, but then Shou Lung invaded one region and wiped out that faction, and the other two allied just to keep Shou out of what was left of Tu'Lung. There was also a major geographic upheaval - huge swaths of land caved-in to the Underdark (sound familiar? Guess what - you can check - I came up with that long before WotC came up with the Undershasm!) However, it's nothing like the Underchasm - it's become a 'great Lakes' region bordering at least five different states (and has its own weird denizens, thanks to the Spellplague). And lastly, after the death of the emperor (the twin Tan chin possessed, who aged much faster because of that), Tan Chin possessed a Celestial Dragon. Then he turned the dragon into a dracolich. So now he is a lich possessing a lich... who was a demigod. His power is incredible, and he rules with an iron fist (lawful neutral, actually - he has come to care about the letter of the law before the individual). That happened about 60 years ago, and it's why millions have fled from the regime of the Dragon Emperor (He refers to himself as 'The Mandrake'). He also has long-range plans to spread his 'benevolent rule' to other lands, hence his occupation of Kozakura, his icy relations with Wa and Koryo, his abortive attempt to invade and take over lower Malatra (Jambu Dweepam), his invasion of Tu'Lung, and his current 'disagreement' with Mulhorand. The only thing staying his hand at the moment is the possibility that all of his enemies might unite in common cause, and that's a fight he might not be able to win (especially since his surprising defeat in Dweepam - he has no idea what happened to the army of 100,000 he sent there).
Oh, and the Celestial Dragon he took over was none other than Mei Lung Cheng Shan, the narrator of the K-T boxed set.  |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 28 Nov 2017 22:07:40 |
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Dalor Darden
Great Reader
USA
4211 Posts |
Posted - 28 Nov 2017 : 21:09:23
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| If you need Free Editing... |
The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me! |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 28 Nov 2017 : 22:13:20
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I'll probably will use several 'sets of eyes' - I have a few 'experts' in mind that will catch all my mistakes (lore-wise). And then there is my atrocious typing...
Appreciate the interest, as always, Ace. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 30 Nov 2017 : 00:31:31
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Whelp, after another extremely annoying crash, I've decided I have to try a completely new approach to my labeling methodolgy. 
Also, because it hadn't crashed in awhile, it got me good - I was being lax about saving again. Sneaky GIMP was just setting me up for a big one.  |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 30 Nov 2017 00:32:27 |
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Zeromaru X
Great Reader
Colombia
2442 Posts |
Posted - 30 Nov 2017 : 01:27:57
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| Did that means the map is so big that eats up all your PC's resources? |
Instead of seeking change, you prefer a void, merciless abyss of a world... |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 30 Nov 2017 : 03:08:05
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Yes and no. Thats a very big contributing factor, but there are others, and am starting to narrow them down.
GIMP uses FLASH coding, so any other program (ie., anything ADOBE) that also uses it has a good chance of crashing it. For example, I used to try and play a browser game I like at the same time I mapped, and I had a lot of crashes, so now I don't anymore (browser games are FLASH-intensive). I also used to have problems if I have Adobe acrobat open, looking at PDF's - something I almost always do as I am mapping, because I am also researching at the same time. I tried to figure it out, because it wouldn't happen all the time, so I just assumed it was the number of books I had open. The more open, the less resources available, which contributes to crashes in general.
However, the other day I had TWELVE books open and nary a problem. I was also working on a much smaller map (the ones for the Ixinos product). I also opened and closed several large files in GIMP during that. Thats like when I play my browser game - I can open it, do some stuff, and then close it again, and I shouldn't have a problem, but if I try to switch back & forth the computer gets confused and GIMP crashes (and I've had my browser crash as well). All of this I've learned through trial-and-error.
But today I had GIMP crash when I had just one pdf open, and even though the file size was large, it wasn't insanely large (I do have a couple of those - I can't even work on them anymore - everything is so s_l_o_w). So WTH? And then I realized it depended on the type of file I opened with Adobe. When I had those 12 books open the other day they were ALL older books - pdf's made from running OCR software on 1e/2e products, Even 3e products should fall under this category (unless there is a web enhancement, but I'll get to that). They aren't PDF's made with pdf software. When I have just a single 4e or 5e book open, there's a good chance there's going to be a GIMP crash, because those were actually made as PDF's, and include all the underlying sourcecode, including hot-linking, which relates to FLASH). So even if the PDF doesn't use hotlinks or anything else flash-enabled, it still has the code for it in there, unlike older PDF's. Today I opened the 4e FRCG and then GIMP crashed right after. Looks like 4e is still biting me in the arse. LOL
And, of course, none of this should be a problem when I finally start using my new machine, which I got way back in August and it's still sitting in the room next door because I am mad at it. I'm weird like that. In the mean time, just be happy knowing the geography part of the map is indeed done. I just need to label stuff. In order to do wrap-around text in GIMP I have to use the Path tool, which is the thing that makes it crash (if FLASH is running elsewhere as well). PS did text much simpler - it was automated - and I didn't have to use paths. But I don't really miss working with PS, because I've been forced to become a more savvy user because of the lack of automated sequences. I wouldn't be able to use half the techniques I now have in my repertoire if I hadn't been forced to switch to GIMP. Making things 'idiot proof' (dumbing-down the front end) of anything, be it a cash register, computer GUI, automobile, etc, etc, might make the learning curve easier, but it completely nerfs people's ability to ever become power-users. Most folks who use PS don't use 95% of its features, and thats PS's fault - 'user-friendly' is going to lead us into the Idiocracy.
I could also make the case that PS never crashed when I used it, but I was also working on MUCH smaller maps at MUCH lower definitions back then as well. Regardless, I'll get back to the labeling tomorrow. I need to take a break. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 30 Nov 2017 08:25:43 |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 30 Nov 2017 : 21:18:46
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Yuan-ti? Who needs 'em!
I had one of my my moments of madn... errr... an epiphany, this morning. I was playing with yet another map concept (yes, I KNOW, I have a PROBLEM), trying to 'save' Returned Abeir (although not quite Laerakond) for 5e, because it would be one helluva waste to simply loose it.
My first idea was to shift it in its entirety west of Chult. I've had this idea before, but this time I pushed it further away, and attached the Razor Coast (Frog God Games) to the right (east) side of it, and it was a great fit. I really love the way it worked out with Chult, Lantan, and Nimbral. It was quite beautiful.
HOWEVER, when I took that mock-up an pasted into a world map, the left side (west coast) of Laerakond wound-up about as far away from Maztica as The Moonshaes are from the Sword Coast. It isn't terrible, but it is rather crowded, and kind of unrealistic looking (it DOES bring Maztica closer to Faerūn, via coast-hopping, but that can go either way as far as if that's 'better' or worse).
I really am in love with the way the Razor Coast looks to the left of Chult - the two maps are very complimentary. So then I thought, what if I broke Laerakond up? After all, if I do 'save' it, it shouldn't be anything like it was before... in fact, it CAN'T be, because Maztica came back. So what if enough back-and-forth happened between Returned Abeir and Faerūn that Ao felt it was best to keep it (we don't really need to go into detail as to what his reasons were).
The right 'arm' of Laerakond works as-is connected to the RC and to the west of Chult. But the rest I want to spread around, and yet, keep nearby. So here are my thoughts, looking at the maps - the Dusk Ports work perfectly along the coast just west of Halruaa, along the jungle there. I just have to mirror them is all (and since we've never had city-maps for them, it matters very little). The weird thing is, Gontal works out perfectly IN Halruaa - the two lakes are nearly identical. Problem with that is we got Halruaa back, and I don't really want to do some sort of weird merger thing like I did in my Misbegotten Realms. Then I thought, the nearby Lapal Sea might make a good substitute, and I could put the few settlements of Gontal along the river there: The Lapalgulph and the River Lapar make great substitutes. You can use the Serpent Kingdoms maps to understand what I am talking about here. The only other major 'realm' would be Melarbrauth, and that could easily go in the Black Jungle next door. And if we wanted to keep boring Relmaur, that can go in the mountains there between this region and Halruaa ("The West Wall"). That should keep all of the flavor these places had, shoe-horn them snugly in the realms, and still keep us far enough away from Maztica to not look odd.
If I were to do a map (something simple, just using the existing maps I have), I would keep it as an entirely separate thing, apart from 'canon' (even though canon isn't what it used to be - except for the Razor Coast part, I can easily submit this to the DMsGuild). The one and only thing I am hesitant about are the Yuan-ti already living in that area. There's enough room for both to be there, but would that makes sense? We already have plenty of yuan-ti regions elsewhere, so would this be such a big deal? Especially since I don't actually plan on 'losing them'?
Anyone want to apply their own brains to this and please let me know if this idea is even worth pursuing? Will people USE IT? Thats my primary concern right now. I only want to work on stuff I know people will find useful. I 'could' leave off the Razor Coast; especially if I submit it to the DMsGuild - even if I got permission from Frog God {which I don't see as a problem so long as I am only using their coastal outline, and then plug their book), I doubt WotC will find that acceptable. I would then have to put the Windrise Ports of Abeir on the southern coast of Chult, and then Chult will begin to lose to some of its mysterious flavor (or create an island whole cloth - that's a possibility - directly south of Chult). |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 01 Dec 2017 03:10:17 |
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Zeromaru X
Great Reader
Colombia
2442 Posts |
Posted - 01 Dec 2017 : 01:44:52
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
I really am in love with the way the Razor Coast looks to the left of Chult - the two maps are very complimentary. So then I thought, what if I broke Laerakond up? After all, if I do 'save' it, it shouldn't be anything like it was before... in fact, it CAN'T be, because Maztica came back. So what if enough back-and-forth happened between Returned Abeir and Faerūn that Ao felt it was best to keep it (we don't really need to go into detail as to what his reasons were).
I can provide a few ideas.
Ao can felt that Laerakond has to remain in a more controllable Toril, because his shadow is there.
Or perhaps it wasn't Ao, but the gods. If a weakened Enlil could retain most of Tymanther in Toril, a single greater god can do the same with the continent. Heck, even a minor god at full power can do it. And a few greater gods were interested in the place (a continent ripe with new converts).
As for my own idea (the one I applied to my home Realms), was to take advantage of that "the world got bigger!" from the SCAG, so, there is room for a new continent in Toril. It remained between Maztica and Faerūn (because reasons; my players haven't asked why), but with the same distances as before, because... well, Toril got bigger (yeah, I know, that is a rather lame fix...) |
Instead of seeking change, you prefer a void, merciless abyss of a world... |
Edited by - Zeromaru X on 01 Dec 2017 02:00:48 |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 01 Dec 2017 : 03:22:17
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Like I said, there could be a million reasons we could come up with - my mind is leaning towards 'its been corrupted' too much (too much contact with Toril, and now those people and those places are more 'Torillian' because of it). It took him 30K+ years to get people to forget about 'Divine Magic' and casting spells through worship, and the last thing he'd want if for folks to figure out how to start spell-slinging on Abeir the way they do on Toril.
I decided against using the Razor Coast, despite how lovely it is. It would just be easier to do a complete conversion at some point down the line (after I've done the Chult maps as part of my regional maps, which is very far off, I'm afraid). I also decided NOT to add a new island to the south of the Chultan peninsula. I managed to find enough room to squeeze everything without that, and without even having to go into Chult-proper. Everything falls-out on that 'arm', from Halruaa to Samarach. I not only DIDN'T lose or move any of the Yuna-it settlements, I gained two more!
A big part of this change is that I was looking at older maps - 2e and 3e - instead of my own 5e map, where I had already made considerably changes. I need to get back to labeling that, as well. I had it open a couple of times today without any problems. I'm going to have to flatten it (remove all the layering) to label it, but I can always go back to another save if I need to tweak the terrain. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 01 Dec 2017 : 17:21:23
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So I've decided to place the settlements back in Samarach, even though I was told the country was 'destroyed'. Since the terrain there changed NOT AT ALL (compared to great changes just about everywhere else), I can only assume a tidal wave came in and washed all the people out.
So here's my fix - there should have been some survivors. There are mountains literally circling the damn country - HIGH GROUND in every direction (except south). But there weren't a lot - not enough to rebuild a country with.
Now, in the GHotR (IIRC), we have an entry that said a bunch of Maztican tribespeople were brought over to Amn at the tail-end of 3e. What if - because of all the other problems the country was facing then (civil unrest and an invasion and occupation by an army of monsters) made it impossible for them to control such a large group of 'savages' (I'm going to exaggerate the numbers here beyond what the GHotR even alludes to). With all the other 'badness' going on in the country - and then the damn Spellplague hits - whatever their intended plans for these people were ruined, and they didn't want them just milling about Athkatla, causing more trouble (troops initially assigned to guard them became busy elsewhere).
So the great Amn navy loaded them all aboard ships and set sail for Chult. They didn't tell the Mazticans they weren't going home - they just told them they were dropping them off on the shore of their homeland. They sailed around Chult (after all, they needed the voyage to take longer so their trickery would not be so evident) and dumped them in newly 'cleansed' Samarach. It didn't take long for the Mazticans to realize it wasn't Maztica, but they made the best of it. They found the survivors of the flood in the hills in the surrounding area, and together the rebuilt Samarach.
With pyramids. And 'strange gods'. 
Folks of Faerūn - mostly sailors and explorers - have taken to calling the realm 'little Maztica' now, because of the displaced cultural elements. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 01 Dec 2017 17:23:15 |
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Zeromaru X
Great Reader
Colombia
2442 Posts |
Posted - 01 Dec 2017 : 17:43:40
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I like that idea. And for time, the New Mazticans will believe they are the last survivors of their culture.
Add some abeiran weirdness (we know some abeiran people and stuff got stranded in Chult), and the place will be a lot more interesting. |
Instead of seeking change, you prefer a void, merciless abyss of a world... |
Edited by - Zeromaru X on 01 Dec 2017 20:04:55 |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 01 Dec 2017 : 19:21:53
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Yup - strange pyramids appeared in the jungles, and other 'edifices' carved into the mountains as well.
They also seem to have discovered a God claiming to be the son of Maztica (the Goddess), who will lead them to the 'True World' again so they can be reunited with their brethren in paradise. The deity calls itself 'Sethir', and has certain... serpentine... qualities. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 01 Dec 2017 21:28:33 |
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Zeromaru X
Great Reader
Colombia
2442 Posts |
Posted - 01 Dec 2017 : 20:07:36
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| I saw what you did there |
Instead of seeking change, you prefer a void, merciless abyss of a world... |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 02 Dec 2017 : 01:56:49
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Well, I know why it 'blew up' now. I never noticed before, but Samarach is also a crater. I spend most of my time pouring over older (1e/2e) maps, and in most cases, the 'crater effect' is much more apparent on those older maps. but in the case of Chult and Samarach, we didn't get too many maps with that on it (and Samarach is cut in half on the old Chult map), plus the jungle there helped obscure what was going on. You can actually see it clearly on the 3e FR campaign map.
So, everything that was a crater went ***BOOM*** when the Spellplague hit. I'm still not 100% sure about whatever rained down on Toril pre-Sundering, but whatever it was, it was apparently antithesis to Mystra's Weave (Arcane Magic). |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11691 Posts |
Posted - 02 Dec 2017 : 02:30:04
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The idea of Mazticans displaced to Chult by Amn is an interesting one that I do like. It can definitely work into a thing linking Ubtao and Qotal.
However, initially, I'm actually more in love with your idea above of PORTIONS of Laerakond staying and PORTIONS of Maztica returning. Then I look at the two maps side by side and I go "what should stay and what should go?"
So, then my mind goes, are these two definitely the same size even.... and unfortunately, I don't see the original maztica boxed set amongst my books on the book shelf any longer. So, I don't have a physical map to measure the distances to compare to the map of Laerakond.... so this may be WAAAYYYY off. But, what if Laerakond could fit WITHIN Maztica. By that I mean that Maztica has this huge desert called the House of Tezca that occupies a large portion up to the "sea of Azul. If that were cut in half such that returned abeir's countries of Melabrauth, Gontal, and the dusk ports take up what was once uninteresting desert.... and then Relmaur and Fimbrul of returned Abeir takes up the southern half of Pezelac.... and then Skelkor, Eskorn, and the Sword Lands occupy the area of Far Payit.... well, then you still have the main portions of Maztica which were used in the stories.... and you'd have all of returned abeir/Laerakond at the center. The lower western side of Laerakond would fit over where the "Gulf of Qotal" currently is, and it would hook into the mountains of the Lopango North shore.... but since that area of Laerakond is all a bunch of mountain ranges anyway... it kind of would work.
Here's a really rough idea of what I was picturing (and note, I used the magic wand tool and it didn't capture some of the interior/yellow land of Gontal and Skelkor and the dusk ports, so those areas would be filled in, but this should give the rough idea of what I'm saying)
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1w9shIckEl9Vbwb2KxnktCU8bwMHcrUKX/view?usp=sharing
In the overlaps where something interesting would exist from Maztica, you can simply have that bleed through. This would put the Maztican city of Tukan on the edge of Gontal. The "god city" of Tewahca would be up in the Glaur Barrens. The "Sunstone" of Maztica would be in the Howling Mountains of Laerakond
Of course, if you DID do something like this, one of the things I feel you would need to do would be to have a resurgence of the dragonbane amber amongst mazticans and the killing of many of the dragons of Laerakond so that they have a wariness of the Mazticans. Maybe some Mazticans use hakuna (aka dragonnes or dragon-lions) against the dragons. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
Edited by - sleyvas on 02 Dec 2017 02:44:13 |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 02 Dec 2017 : 02:55:39
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Well, I don't need either anymore. i fund spots for everything. Smarach just became my 'little Maztica', and I got the rest spread across 'the arm' of Chult, right on into the mountains of Halruaa (and the Bandit Wastes to the north - the edge of those just became my new Glaur Barrens - it was an insanely good fit).
On the down side, there are two 'Dragon kings' down near Chult now, but Melauthaur the Undying (Melabrauth) is is pretty much in a coma, and Gauwervyndhal the Empress Dragon (Skelkor) seems to be in the market to 'make friends' (at least, as of 4e). We also duplicated the Border Kingdoms by now also having the Sword Lands as well, but they aren't all that far away from each other, so it sort of makes sense (and seriously, how can you have too many 'robber barons' in D&D?) The Guthland (Thindol) became Skelkor, BTW, and The Black Jungle is Melabrauth. Hope the yuan-ti don't disturb Melauthaur too much.
The way I've placed the two sets of citystates, they make far more sense then they did in returned Abeir (just who were they trading with?) They straddle the river/channel that connects the Shining Sea to the Great Sea.
EDIT:
Oh, and I don't mean this as retconny, 'it was always that way' kind of thing. These Abeirrans are surprised (and extremly annoyed) that they've been shifted to a new region AGAIN, and this time only their 'stuff' came with them, not their continent. I figure right now lots and LOTS of people are 'feeling each other out', but its only a matter of time before the place hits the boiling point. In other words, a place ripe for intrigue-style adventures (I almost feel like I created a little bit of Mystara's Savage Baronies in The Realms). Throw in some 'Tortles of the Purple Sage' and we're good to go.
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"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 02 Dec 2017 03:04:11 |
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My maps
