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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
15675 Posts

Posted - 06 Mar 2018 :  17:40:14  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Rifts, 'landrises', escarpments, etc... I just assume are all natural phenomena, and although I don't even what to think about what this means to the Underdark, we have to also assume Toril has a normal amount of tectonic plate activity and volcanism. Actually, I just checked - on average a plate is 200 Km (124 miles) thick; plenty of room for all our drowy goodness.

Its not so much the meteor strikes - earth has them as well (but most of them are so well camouflaged we don't even notice them). Its just that Earth's are spread-out over millions, perhaps billions of years, whereas Toril's are all within 'known history' - the past 36K+ years, so they are more distinctive (very little erosion), but also recorded by people. And most of the ones we know about should have been 'planet killers', but since we know there are dudes like Ao out there, we can just assume also that the 'gods are looking out for us' (and I believe the canon even says as much, in regards to the most recent one in Paul Kemp's novel series).

What I find the most odd is that folks are practically blasé about it. If they even think about them at all, that is. I guess on a world where gods are highly active, no-one bats an eye at that sort of thing. Its just that not all of them are 'empty'. We have all those beholders down in the Lake of Steam area, for example, and just about any mountains that have the word 'Star' in the name have Aarakocra in them.

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone

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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
15675 Posts

Posted - 06 Mar 2018 :  17:50:00  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
So I have it where the 'Battle of Bones' (such an annoying name for a cluster of crumbly hills) didn't exist during the time of Netheril. Thats fine - I've already got answers for that.

But I also have a range of hills - The Shaddan Hills - that seems to have just disappeared since then. They didn't exist during Netheril, and they don't exist now, but they were there during the Survivor state period. So now I'm like, what made the Shadden Hills, and why did they move? Because if I have an 'appearing' set of hills, at the same time as a 'disappearing' one, then it makes sense to me that it crawled a few hundred miles in that time (and YES, it does make a weird sort of sense in a fantasy setting).

Any ideas? 'Giant space worm'? We have no 'hills', then hills appear, and then a thousand years later we have hills about 250 miles west of that. Oh, and on the most recent 5e map, they've moved just a bit more - maybe another 30-50 miles further west. And it's getting larger. So either lots of maps have had growing (literally) errors over the years, or something ginormous has been burrowing beneath Faerūn for some 1400 years.

Actually, tying this to Brian's Monument of the Ancients might not be such a bad idea - that lore says all sorts of primordial/elemental beings were ether banished or trapped before the Seven Sigils War ended. That gives us a great reason why the hills weren't there during the Netheril Age. Then maybe it 'woke up' (was released) when magic went awry (Karsus' Folly), and burrowed west, finally braking the surface in the area of BotB (so instead of an 'impact crater', it's more like an 'escape hole' where something burst forth). The Terrasque would be the most obvious choice, but unfortunately, we already have him making an appearance in the Netheril material.

I may have to reread that stuff (where was it again?) I may be able to connect it all together - if the Terrasque was already around and trapped by the Netherese (towards the last 500 years of their empire), it may have 'moved' from where it was said to be in the Netheril lore to the Shaddan Hills location. And then later, it moved again. A bit too 'Godzilla' for me, but it works.

And it may have been looking for its 'mate' over in Katashaka.

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 06 Mar 2018 18:01:17
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dazzlerdal
Great Reader

United Kingdom
4200 Posts

Posted - 06 Mar 2018 :  18:39:26  Show Profile Send dazzlerdal a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I thought it was shaddath hills.

I tied the disappearance of the hills to the fight between the cloudlands and thauglors dragons. Some magic called all the rocks up from the ground and flung them into the sky which slew the dragons and destroyed the cloudlands.

Didnt notice the hills werent there during netherils time although the shadow gap did seem a lot narrower during that time because blister spanned across both mountain ranges i think (according to the dragon mag article).

I think in the end i wrote blister out of existence because it made little to no sense for it to exist. However archmages were known to need a lot of rock to form the basis of enclaves (although i made the m only tower sized in my version) and it wouldnt be the first time that netherese had used magic to totally reshape geographic features. With the crown of the mountain they could have erased a mountain pass entirely leaving a much wider gap (several miles wide).

I penned netheril in using the dragons of cormanthor and the stormhorns and hoarfaern and the purple mountains. Flying enclaves seemed no match to ancient dragons and it helps explain why it didnt spread so much further

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Brimstone
Great Reader

USA
3030 Posts

Posted - 06 Mar 2018 :  19:00:27  Show Profile Send Brimstone a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay


or something ginormous has been burrowing beneath Faerūn for some 1400 years.

It wouldn't surprise me one bit...

"These things also I have observed: that knowledge of our world is
to be nurtured like a precious flower, for it is the most precious
thing we have. Wherefore guard the word written and heed
words unwritten and set them down ere they fade . . . Learn
then, well, the arts of reading, writing, and listening true, and they
will lead you to the greatest art of all: understanding."
Alaundo of Candlekeep
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
15675 Posts

Posted - 06 Mar 2018 :  21:56:34  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
While I really like the whole 'some ebil lurks below' scenario, the shear size makes it a little bit beyond even an epic-tier party to handle (hell, it would probably take ALL of the Chosen to even halt it, let alone kill it). I could turn it into a weird aberrational 'city', like Xxiphu, only its able to 'push' right through solid bedrock ('swim through rock' - something kinda 'Far Realmsian'). We DO have the Phaerimm, but they're not much on 'city building' - they're actually solitary types (usually). Picture a settlement/fortress that is similar in design to that serpent-like spaceship from the Avengers movie.

But while I am digging on that (pun intended ), its so far out in the left field of homebrew thats its more like fanfic. Its the kind of thing that if it appeared in canon, people would blow a gasket over ("how could something that BIG have gone unnoticed for so long?") Of course, my whole reasoning here explains that - people have been seeing it, but because of the enormity involved they had no idea what they were seeing.

Anyhow, while I would love to pursue this train of thougt further, and see if I can link it up to the pre-existing Nether/Terrasque connection (and maybe the Seven Sigils War), I think I'd rather just leave it 'as is', and someone else can run with it for their campaign, if they want. It also doesn't have to BE that big (anymore). Like, what if it was insect-like, and the 'babies' ate their way out, creating the Battle of the Bones? I recall both Diablo and Warcraft VG's having such 'hives'. I think they were called Silithids. Silithid Hive.

But, I think, for now I will simply say the hills appeared because a series of 'unknown' enclaves (perhaps several smaller and one or to city-sized ones) came down in that spot when the Weave fell. I could have even been a bunch of earthmotes (which were NOT unknown before 4e - just rarer) that the Netherese gathered together for some reason over that place (a defense against the Cloudlands?) anyhow, they created some 'hills' in that region during the 'Anaurian Period', which eventually were all worn-down by the elements, covered in sand (there could just be some large dunes there now), or carted-off as building material for the new settlements that needed to be built in the Survivor States. thus, they were only 'there' during that time frame.

As for the other - the Battle of the Bones - it definitely wasn't there during Netheril, and the Anauria map doesn't extend far-enough west to show it, but I have to assume something truly huge exploded high above that region and the pieces rained-down there, creating the BotB, and the best candidate for that would be Tenish (although I HATE that name - gonna have to lengthen it; I mentioned earlier 'Tenishaar', and I still like that - it may be 'a keeper').

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 06 Mar 2018 22:07:52
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
15675 Posts

Posted - 07 Mar 2018 :  04:34:22  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Okay, I'm pretty sure I have gremlins.

I managed to extract all the data I needed out of the HUGE file that keeps crashing GIMP, and put it in a different, much smaller file (both way less layers and also a much smaller geographic area). So after getting all that set on a background of the new pasted-together Fonstad map as a background, I pasted in a few other maps I need just for this newest demi-project (it's not a real project, its an 'in-between' thing I need to do to make sure my maps line-up correctly), so parts of it will end up in like four other maps eventually. There is one map in particular I've always had trouble with, because there really is no way to make it work as-is, so I have to cut it up and glue it back in in sections (backwards-engineering a 3e/4e map, so it has that major problem going for it, along with several other... oddities). I shall forevermore refer to that as the 'cursed map'.

After each little incremental change, I saved. And everything seemed perfectly fine. I shut down GIMP (that also helps, because I have 30 levels of 'restore', and that eats memory like a pig), did some other things, and then just now opened the nice, new map back up....

*** File Corrupted ***

I have NEVER had that happened after a GIMP save before. That one map is THE DEVIL! And I kept saving over the old file, so... now no file again. So in D&D terminology, since that map only had bits and pieces from the original, problematic map, does that mean its a 'vestige', and do I need to call in an exorcist?

EDIT:
I think I managed to get the files saved properly. I'm glad I took the time to do this, because this newest layout is as perfect as it gets.

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 07 Mar 2018 08:52:32
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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore

Australia
5336 Posts

Posted - 07 Mar 2018 :  10:01:40  Show Profile Send George Krashos a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay


As for the other - the Battle of the Bones - it definitely wasn't there during Netheril, and the Anauria map doesn't extend far-enough west to show it, but I have to assume something truly huge exploded high above that region and the pieces rained-down there, creating the BotB, and the best candidate for that would be Tenish (although I HATE that name - gonna have to lengthen it; I mentioned earlier 'Tenishaar', and I still like that - it may be 'a keeper').



Isn't the Battle of the Bones gorge supposed to be The Hollow in the Netheril boxed set map?

-- George Krashos

"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus
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dazzlerdal
Great Reader

United Kingdom
4200 Posts

Posted - 07 Mar 2018 :  10:59:30  Show Profile Send dazzlerdal a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I thought the Hollow was the Marsh of Tun

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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore

Australia
5336 Posts

Posted - 07 Mar 2018 :  13:58:15  Show Profile Send George Krashos a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by dazzlerdal

I thought the Hollow was the Marsh of Tun



The Marsh of Tun is way further to the south.

-- George Krashos

"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
15675 Posts

Posted - 08 Mar 2018 :  03:05:19  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Nope. Tha'ts the Skull Gorge.

When you superimpose the Netheril map onto the Anauroch map (and they line-up PERFECTLY, even non-digitally - I learned this by accident some years ago - the two maps from the two different products were sized EXACTLY the same, and covered the same exact area - you could lay them both out on a glass table and shine a light up from underneath (how I used to trace stuff as a kid), and you will see everything lines-up perfectly. That's why I don't think leaving the Battle of the Bones out was a mistake - i think it just wasn't there at the time.

You see it HERE. Hopefully that is clear enough - I have it at 50% opacity so you can see both sets of locales.

You can see that the Battle of the Bones[/i] falls-out in the middle of nowhere, in the region marked "Angardt Ancestral lands". One thing I learned from doing this one is that the Angardt are more likely related to the Talfir (and thus Thaeravel), and the Rengardt are more likely related to the Gur who I I assume are the people who are the people who settled the region to the north (I picture tribes on nomadic 'Gur Horseman' traveling all across the north. migrating from the East, which makes them related to the Raumvari (Narfell/Raumathar/Rashemen bloodlines). So we have a neo-Celtic people (the Talfir) to the south of the Heartlands, and an 'invading' group of psuedo-Cossack (Russo-Finnic) like barbarians across the north (who we probably got our finnish deities from via Netheril). And the two groups clash in the middle. Eventually we also have the Uthgardt, after the Northmen (our Not-Norse) start settling the coast, and mix with the northern Rengardt. The Rengardt would have also mixed with the more northerly 'ice Hunters' as well, such that there is very little 'pureblood' left anywhere. Peoples and cultures mixing with other peoples and cultures, forever creating new things.

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 08 Mar 2018 06:01:40
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
15675 Posts

Posted - 08 Mar 2018 :  06:02:00  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I keep losing power at my house... damn accursed maps. LOL
I pasted the Netherese 'survivor states' map in the Anauroch map, which was pasted into Mike Schley's map. just to give us a bit more perspective.

Asram, Anauria, and Hlondeth

You can see what I mean about that map leaving out the big, central mountain range there. Somethings lineup amazingly perfect, though, like the old 'goblin capital' of Arugal (a hill) sits directly on top of the Secret Place in the Sands (also a hill). Looking at this yet again, I may keep Rasalith and Kismet separate. It might be more fun that way - saying Kismet was founded near the ruins of the old Thaeravel capitol (so now, ruins next to even older ruins).

You can see Monikar falls out right near Shadowdale, and Blister is right where Tilverton is/was. On the more recent map you can see 'The tower of Ashaba' right where it should be, in Shadowdale.

Anyway, you can see how large the Goblin Marches used to be, which puts the whole story of the Battle of Bones (and the Hill of Lost Souls) into better perspective. Also, that 'Kingdom' (Grodd? Or would that have been just one city?) falls out right in the same region as Thaeravel, so now I am thinking that the Thaeravelites (mostly Talfir with a small 'aristocracy' of Imaskari expatriates) also had Goblin slaves. Slaves they had very good control over and even armed and used as soldiers. Perhaps even a 'superior breed' of goblins (the Grodd Goblins did seem much more lawful and civilized than most, and we still see evidence among some of the tribes in that region). Then Thaeravel was taken-out in a Blitzkrieg attack - I figure mostly just the 'Alabaster Towers' where the wizards dwelt, and the goblinoids all went 'underground', both figuratively and literally (because the Netherese would have just exterminated them). So two parts of Thaeravel survived (so it had its own 'survivor states') - High Thaeravel - which later became known as the 'Cloud Kingdom' (doesn't that have a name now?), and 'Thaeravel underground', which would have been those Grodd Goblins (and any other cities they kept - I'm thinking Grodd may have gotten shifted into that demiplane as a last-resort defense when Netheril attacked). Maybe the 'Hlundadim' was actually a surviving (and vengeful) Thaervali Sorcerer.

Then Netheril itself falls (literally and figuratively), and the goblins are emboldened enough to come back out and play. They quickly start making war on the survivors, as does the cloud Kingdom (which managed to remain aloft because they use rune-based magic, rather than Weave-magic). So the kingdom of Hlundadim is 'born' out of the chaos after the fall, but the spreading of the desert slowly kills it off. 'The Goblin Marches' would have been that kingdom, and it would have been quite large.

I went looking for the pertinent entries in the GHotR and found two different entries for the events of the Battle of Bones - one in 200 DR and another in 1090 DR. So, although thats a pretty big conflict (I know BRJ wrote one of those entries, and have a feeling ELB wrote the other, because he wrote the accompanying vingette. 'Too many cooks...". However, now I have good time frame for when Hlundadim rose and fell.

That whole region has ALWAYS been known for abnormally large numbers of goblinoids (for such a relatively small area). I am almot thinking there are Gates at work. If we go all the way back to the Battle of God's Theater (which is a cute reference to the 'bowl' of the Tunlands) during the Crown Wars, an 'orc horde' came out of nowhere and attacked both Elvish armies. given where the two elven forces came from, that could have only been from directly NORTH - that same region that later became known as the Goblin Marches (which is connected next to an area known as Luthic's Creche.) I think that whole region we now call 'The Backlands' used to be Goblin/Orc territory, and they've been driven out of it over the millennia. Evereska may have even been a 'border outpost' placed there to watch over the surrounding humanoids.

And coincidentally, right near 'God's Theater' are mountains that were called the God's Legion mountains, and all those mountains are part of a single chain - the Thunder Peaks/Stormhorns.

"There were giants in the earth in those days."

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 08 Mar 2018 06:06:46
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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore

Australia
5336 Posts

Posted - 08 Mar 2018 :  10:19:31  Show Profile Send George Krashos a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

Nope. Tha'ts the Skull Gorge.

When you superimpose the Netheril map onto the Anauroch map (and they line-up PERFECTLY, even non-digitally - I learned this by accident some years ago - the two maps from the two different products were sized EXACTLY the same, and covered the same exact area - you could lay them both out on a glass table and shine a light up from underneath (how I used to trace stuff as a kid), and you will see everything lines-up perfectly. That's why I don't think leaving the Battle of the Bones out was a mistake - i think it just wasn't there at the time.



Yes, sorry I was talking about Skull Gorge. And I agree that the Battle of the Bones "wasn't there" at the time of Netheril, but it wasn't there at the fall either. It was created when a massive humanoid army battled a coalition of human realms of the Heartlands with assistance from Cormyr - creating a wasteland. No need to have it caused by a falling enclave.

-- George Krashos

"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus
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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore

Australia
5336 Posts

Posted - 08 Mar 2018 :  10:28:22  Show Profile Send George Krashos a Private Message  Reply with Quote
The references in 200 DR and 1090 DR talk about very different things. We mapped out the rise and fall of Hlundadim in GHotR but the two events have nothing to do with each other. The cause of the great 1090 DR horde has not yet been fleshed out in FR history - along with most of the history of the Heartlands - and so there are are still tales to be told.

-- George Krashos

"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus
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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore

Australia
5336 Posts

Posted - 08 Mar 2018 :  10:40:05  Show Profile Send George Krashos a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Hey Mark, I was wondering. That survivor states inset map in the larger FR13 Anauroch map - if you have a higher res separate version, can you send it to me? It will be useful for a bunch of things.

-- George Krashos

"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
15675 Posts

Posted - 08 Mar 2018 :  20:22:35  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos

quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

Nope. Tha'ts the Skull Gorge.

When you superimpose the Netheril map onto the Anauroch map (and they line-up PERFECTLY, even non-digitally - I learned this by accident some years ago - the two maps from the two different products were sized EXACTLY the same, and covered the same exact area - you could lay them both out on a glass table and shine a light up from underneath (how I used to trace stuff as a kid), and you will see everything lines-up perfectly. That's why I don't think leaving the Battle of the Bones out was a mistake - i think it just wasn't there at the time.



Yes, sorry I was talking about Skull Gorge. And I agree that the Battle of the Bones "wasn't there" at the time of Netheril, but it wasn't there at the fall either. It was created when a massive humanoid army battled a coalition of human realms of the Heartlands with assistance from Cormyr - creating a wasteland. No need to have it caused by a falling enclave.

-- George Krashos

So, ummm... a region of HILLS approximately 40 miles in diameter (its really an oval, and that's the 'long' measurement) was caused by 'a battle'. NOPE. Not buying it. My 'exploding city' (and I did find a canon one who's location wasn't known at the time) is borderline ridiculous (thus, why I said it was VERY large, VERY high-up, and exploded spectacularly), but saying that is battlefield debirs is non-sensical.

We seem to approach the lore of FR from two different directions at this point - if the lore doesn't make sense according to the maps, the lore must change. Whereas you seem to assume the 'maps are wrong'. History derives from the study of ancient locations, not the other way around.

The 1090 FR entry in the timeline makes little to no sense to me, especially without further frame of reference. The 'High Moors' is in the southern Stonelands, and thus, technically part of Cormyr. Having an orc horde generate out of Cormyr and having them go in in any direction other than cormyr itself is patently ridiculous.

Unless that entry is WRONG, and it was supposed to be The High Moor, which is a completely different place.

I feel like the lore in the Elminster's Ecologies was split in half, to better fit other aspects of the established timeline, but then it completely destroys the context of the original lore. This may be a case of fantasy history becoming 'too real'. RW, historians/archaeologists ignore stuff that doesn't "fit their narrative" (like finding Mesoamerican Tobacco in Egyptian tombs), because it dissolves the story they've already built. At that point, it stops being 'science' and starts being self-promotion. Once you have that 'agreed upon story' ('history'), then the establishment does everything it can to obliterate evidence that parts of it may not be true (like the destruction of 7-9000 year old ruins in India that indicated a HIGHER level of culture and civilization than the invading British had themselves obtained).

Recently - and I forget the exact details - a kid found some ruins simply by studying maps and figuring out where some ruins should be. You see, history books can lie, because they are just stories fabricated through a series of 'best guesses', but MAPS NEVER LIE. They are immutable. They take precedence over histories.

A tiny 'range of hills' due to the garbage of a vast city collecting over centuries (The Rat Hills) is barely believable. 'Battlefield debris' roughly the size of Northern Ireland IS NOT.

I'll send that map out ASAP - I have to find your Email - my Email client (Outlook) seems to want to put everything you send me into the junk mail folder, no matter what I do. Its very annoying (because that stuff disappears after 30 days, unlike the stuff in the main folder, and sometimes its more than 30 days before I check my Email).

Bear in mind that when these maps get scanned-in, there is 'warping' around the edges, especially since most of them were scanned in a LONG time ago with primitive scanner tech. The more pieces I have to 'glue together', the worse it becomes. so all of these maps I have are not 100% accurate to their originals - they are as close as I could possible get with what I had to work with. For example, I KNOW that when I had physical maps of both Anauroch and Netheril, they were PERFECTLY sized the same and overlapped, but now my Netheril map sems just a teensy, tiny bit 'narrower'. I think this happened to the survivor-state maps as well - it may be just wee little bit too big along the east/west axis (I am talking a mile or two at most, though), because it came off of two different 'pieces' I had (although, come to think of it, I think I did that scan myself, and took great pains to get it all in one pass, so it may be 'more perfect' than I realized... hmmmm).

Note that that little 'bump-in' of the desert between the Shaddan Hills and 'The Burn' (whatever that was supposed to be) is actually the Saiyaddar on the Anauroch map - they line-up PERFECTLY. Its so weird that that map added terrain thats on no other map, and yet, completely ignored extremely large and important terrain features that should have been on it.

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone

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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
15675 Posts

Posted - 08 Mar 2018 :  20:30:43  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Actually, it was just easier to post to Imgur (and since it is just a piece of a map, rather than the whole map, that should be legally 'okay'). And in case you are wondering, the others I posted yesterday are counted as 'derivative works', because they are modified, so those too, should be 'okay'. Unlike craptastic Photobucket (that I used to use), Imgur doesn't change the resolution, so this should be good (and way better than one taken off any Anauroch map found on the internets... speaking of which, I have a really good copy of that as well).

The Netherese survivor-States of Asram, Anauria, and Hlondath.

Arugal - mentioned in the Battle of Bones material - is within the desert now, but wasn't at that time - it was the goblinoids 'main base' of operations, and it also falls-out precisely in the same spot as the Secret Place in the Sands on the Anauroch map.*

Hlungdadim, Thaeravel, 'The Cloud lands' (of Avaeraether) all seem to fall-out in the same area - what was always considered 'southern Netheril'. I contend that that was NOT 'southern Netheril', but rather, a 'marches' type region (hence, the later name, 'the Goblin Marches'). The three Realms histories have to be tied together (and tied to Netheril), because they all overlap. And all three seem to have had a deep hatred of the Netherese (probably stemming from their brutal attack on Thaeravel). Giants - along with the orcs/goblins and SO many others - have had a long history of warring with the Netherese, and it seems to me those southern lands were in constant contention (probably why the Netherese were trying to find 'other worlds' to expand to).

*EDIT:
And one may surmise that it was only when the desert started to 'lick at their doorstep' (there at Arugal) did the Goblins finally loose their minds and go pouring forth out of the Marches. ALSO, at that time, 'The Stonelands' were part of the Goblin Marches, because 'the stones' weren't even there yet (they would have ended up there after the Survivor-States did something to knock the Cloud kingdom cities out of the air).

And what the heck was the name of the Cloud Kingdoms again?
Nevermind, found it - "Cloudlands of Avaeraether".

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 08 Mar 2018 21:01:51
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dazzlerdal
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Posted - 09 Mar 2018 :  07:31:09  Show Profile Send dazzlerdal a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I think it may be the farsea marsh i was thinking of as being in the hollow. I always get confused with the three marshes around cormyr.

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dazzlerdal
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Posted - 09 Mar 2018 :  07:31:42  Show Profile Send dazzlerdal a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I think it may be the farsea marsh i was thinking of as being in the hollow. I always get confused with the three marshes around cormyr.

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Markustay
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Posted - 09 Mar 2018 :  22:21:11  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Nope, the marshes were both further south, and 'happened' after the fall of Netheril (which is why I link them - indirectly - to Thaeravel). There is lore that the there were two cities where the swamps are now, one that worshiped Kiputytto* and the other Talona. Both cities were destroyed and sank into the newly forming marshes. I think someone may have connected that two two other cities in LEoF but I've decided to start ignoring 3e canon from now on. I'm just going to build off of the original references to stuff, rather that go with how someone 'respun' it later. In a weird way, I think I've just become a 4e 'designer'... about eleven years too late.

*I think Talona came from the Talfir pantheon, and all the Finnish deities came from the Netherese, including Kiputytto. When the Netherese annexed Thaeravel, they also got their gods, and although 'High Netheril' mostly stuck with their own, 'Low Netheril' would have been more influenced by the Talfiric traditions (IMO). This didn't matter all that much for most of Netheril's existence, but after the enclaves fell, then 'High' and 'Low' had to mix, and it became problematic, to the point where two cities destroyed each other over it. I think had the Netherese just been more unified, they may have survived until the modern age. But instead, they brought their old hatreds, vendettas, and prejudices with them to the survivor-states, and continued to fight each other as well as everyone else (I see a 'blame game' going on, perhaps even perpetuated by those in charge - sound like any politics we know? Keep 'the masses' busy fighting with each other to distract from the real culprits - those making all the decisions. This is atypical of empires pre-fall, BTW).

EDIT:
I am currently putting together a Vaasa timeline. Mostly homebrew - there really isn't a lot of 'canon' there. I am really loving how 'New Vaasa' is turning out (another region that kept changing over the years... especially in 4e. I had to do some major 'artistic compromises' to get everything to work, but I am very happy with it).

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 16 Mar 2018 00:46:18
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Markustay
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USA
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Posted - 15 Mar 2018 :  23:25:45  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
On the FRIA maps, I see Mistletarn & Mistlebrook in Mistledale. Anyone know where they are from? I don't see them on any other maps.

EDIT:
The weird thing is, there are MAPS for both settlements in the FRIA, which means there HAD TO have been canon maps for those places somewhere else.

EDIT2:
The mystery deepens. I think the last time I was working on a detailed world map (a decade ago) I did track these two places down, because al of this searching is very familiar. The thing is, whatever I found that first time around appears to be gone. I found a dead link to the FR Help page that was from someone in some forum (which I had to join just to read the damn post... Grrrrr). Now, the FR Help page usually contains copied (FR) articles that originally appeared on the WotC website.

So it seems the original article is gone, the page that quoted it was taken down, and every other single instance I've managed to find leads to another dead end. I found some scant info on one page (Cormanthor WIKI - I never even knew that existed) that seems to have some odd, broken-continuity style lore in it, but it sounds vaguely familiar, like I've read something along those lines before.

In that link I found in that forum they also said there was some info in the FRwiki... but there wasn't. They even provided a link in the forum that brought me right to the Mistledale page of the wiki... so, was the info scrubbed from there as well? Curiouser and curiouser.

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 16 Mar 2018 00:48:32
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George Krashos
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Posted - 16 Mar 2018 :  05:47:42  Show Profile Send George Krashos a Private Message  Reply with Quote
It is strange and I don't have a recollection of these places. I suspect it may have been some WotC web article reference, and with much of that stuff gone or hard to access, there are no immediate answers.

-- George Krashos

"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

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Posted - 16 Mar 2018 :  19:19:11  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos

It is strange and I don't have a recollection of these places. I suspect it may have been some WotC web article reference, and with much of that stuff gone or hard to access, there are no immediate answers.

-- George Krashos

Other dales have them as well, like Battledale - maps of settlements that appear on no other map.

I think I asked Eric about these a LONG time ago, and I think he was the one who gave me the answer (because I KNOW there is one). After all, HE is the guy who placed all that stuff on the FRIA maps.

He DID tell me some people - within both the software company and TSR at the time - were 'playing' with the tools in Campaign Cartographer, and creating some things 'just for fun'. Eric told me that's how HE wound up doing the map for Maskyr's Eye. I asked him about the Undead Castle on the Shadowdale map, and that was also an 'Easter Egg' he told me - just some map someone did playing around that they placed there, and had no canon connecting it.

HOWEVER, the two settlements in Mistledale seem to have had some canon lore associated with them, at least at one time, and someone has gone to great lengths to erase all traces of that. The only time I have ever seen that happen before is when TSR/WotC discovered someone had used someone else's 'property' without permission (it had to do with some Green Regent modules), so they obliterated all references to the material in question to avoid legal problems. I almost feel like this must be along those lines (because not only are all the other, old WotC website articles on the FR Help pages, but I can STILL find the original articles themselves, archived. BUT I can't find that one that is referenced in that one single webpage anywhere - all the links are no longer valid). I mean, the poster even said there was some info about them in the FRwiki, and the link went to the page, but the info WASN'T there. That was the really weird part.

And it can't be as simple as 'conflicting canon', because lord knows we still have tons of that lying around that they've never bothered to hide or correct. There is a story there about someone attempting to rule the Dales, or at least, Mistledale, with NPC names and everything (you can see that in the one link I did find, which unfortunately has no footnoted references at all). And as I said, it seems vaguely familiar to me, like I may have read it before a LONG time ago (probably in a wotC web article, or some other equally obscure source, like the L-List or Polyhedron... but then YOU would know about it, eh George?)

And I checked all the relevant Mistledale-related adventures and other material from both Dragon and Dungeon magazines. Nada. There is some mildly conflicting stuff about Galath's Roost from 3e, but that was WAY too late for Eric to have posted updates to the FRIA. It has to be from 2e, I would imagine. Just checking dates - FRIA seems to have come out right around the time TSR was floundering and WotC was buying it, so before 3e, VERY late 2e product, then, but 3e may have been 'in the works' at that point.

Maybe from Ed's ToT related novels? I think I only read one of those, and I don't remember any of it. There was a lot of fighting n the Dales in those, I think, going by stuff said in the Wiki and elsewhere.

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 16 Mar 2018 19:24:21
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
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Posted - 16 Mar 2018 :  19:26:53  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Do you have that original link, or the name of the original article? I've got a lot of stuff archived from the Wizards site, though I'd need a name to look for it.

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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
15675 Posts

Posted - 17 Mar 2018 :  00:28:27  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I'm still searching myself - I found three new settlements in the Dalelands that haven't been on any map before, but still can't any of those that are on the FRIA maps.

So on the bright side, if they had been easy to find, I would have never found the others.

I thought I found a fourth, but then realized the article's author must have misread a map of Cormyr - he kept referring to Dhedluk as 'Dheolur' (and I only figured that out because the reference to nearby 'Waymoot'). So, if the writer of an an official WotC article spells something wrong, does that actually crate a new settlement?

And did you know that banderlogs (very intelligent baboon-like primates) milk goats in the Dalelands? Go figure. You learn new things about the Realms everyday.

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 17 Mar 2018 00:28:50
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
15675 Posts

Posted - 17 Mar 2018 :  18:15:39  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Currently correcting the river system in Pelvuria (Great Glacier) - its atrocious. Plus, I have to modify one of the larger lakes just a tad to sync-it with what Brian James did in 4e (MotA). More like splitting the difference between where FR14 put it and where that 4e map placed it (and also have a river lead-off from it from a slightly different spot, because of the geographic shift).

Anyhow, how do people feel about Eskimos (Ulutiuns) using Icicle nunchuks? Just a thought...

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 17 Mar 2018 18:16:30
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