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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
15675 Posts

Posted - 28 Feb 2018 :  02:46:30  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
IIRC, it was only mentioned in the 2e Moonsea source, and that was it. there was no elaboration, as far as I recall. I just now reread the 'Brief History' section, and although not specifically label that way (that must be form somewhere else), this is what it says:
quote:
In the year 400 DR, the Year of the Blue Shield, it was. On a night later called the First Turnabout, the forces of the Dark Alliance swept down on the backs of black dragons and attacked Northkeep. What's more, a huge fleet of their black ships with ragged sails sacked and destroyed Northkeep.
After the attack, 40,000 humanoid priests, mages, and shamans stood on the shore of the Moonsea and chanted desperately to their gods. They must have been heard, because with a deafening crack, the city sank beneath the purple waves.
If I had to guess, I would say that's when the Ogre-kingdom of Thar and the Orc Kingdom of Vastar united under one banner.

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone

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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
15675 Posts

Posted - 28 Feb 2018 :  06:46:10  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
On the comment above - I think there was an older source that actually said, "People of the Black Sails" - it may have been in the 1e/2e CG's even (I've checked every possible Moonsea source I could think of).

Onto my never-ending quest to find the (geographic) truth... Orifin & Orolin. It gets even better. Looking at my super-imposed maps (I've added like 6 more now), Orifin falls out EXACTLY on top of Canlespiere (a Netherese settlement), which used to be the Ogre city of Canth. So I have to keep Orifin and Orilin separate, otherwise we have, "Orolin, formerly Orofin, formerly Canlespiere, formerly Chanth". I can't do much about three of them, but Orolin was far enough away from orifin (and on the wrong side of mountains) so I can at least fix that. The city was Canlespiere (a city, BTW, they 'stole' from ogres, because it was so nice... and the Netherese had a hard time taking it, too... those were some pretty nifty ogres!) had to be the ruin now known as Orifin, and because of that, I can connect it to Orilin, just by saying it was a case of mistaken identity by the folks who discovered the ruins (they thought they had found Orilin... which they didn't even spell right). So now, there's never really been an 'Orofin' - it was just a scholarly error marked on some older maps.

I am trying something new here - gonna do the survivor state locales in my usual (black) icons, but I am going to color 'defunct' red, and 'future' blue, so that people can see how everything fell-out over time. I started out doing it all black, so now I have to change the flying enclaves. That minor, though. I think the little extra will be worth it.

So now we got us a group of what appears to be a fairly advanced (and well-organized) group f ogres, being chased out of Netheril (it took SEVEN YEARS!), just before we have the rise of an advance 'ogre Realm' just to the NE. We can easily fudge things to say the city of Chanth was the 'capital' of a realm of Chanth, so we can get better numbers... ermmm..

Nevermind. I just checked the dates (stupid Netheril-reckoning!) I forgot that source dates things differently - it happened in -2856 DR; WAY too far back to be useful to us. However, it does indeed establish a 'superior breed of ogres' living in the North in the distant past (Irda?)

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 28 Feb 2018 06:59:32
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
15675 Posts

Posted - 01 Mar 2018 :  01:51:29  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
So I'm looking at the 'Backdrop Daggerdale' article in Dungeon #192, and can't help but wonder why someone who actually knew a little something about the place hadn't written the article.

Obviously, neither the author of cartographer had access to the Forgotten Realms Interactive Atlas. Its probably THE most crowed small region outside of Cormyr, in regards to 'locales and sites of interest', and nary a mention of ANY of them. Its as if the article was written just by using the old Dalelands source (map and all).

So annoying... I was hoping to find some new goodies. I should have known better than to seek an early 4e article (in the beginning, they seem to have taken the 'lore lite' approach to an extreme). Thank goodness I manage to get a couple of nifty things off of the Monument of the Ancients maps - the 4e material seemed to have gotten somewhat 'fluffier' over time.

On the flipside, I don't think I've had this much fun playing with maps in quite some time - I really like this 'multi-edition' approach. I feel like I am uncovering buried secrets.

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone

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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore

Australia
5124 Posts

Posted - 02 Mar 2018 :  12:37:38  Show Profile Send George Krashos a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Hey Mark, I was just trawling through Ed's "Elminster in Hell" and found that the Lost Peaks in the High Forest have a name: "Alander" (p.243 - hardcover). Ed just keeps sneaking this stuff in. Cheers.

-- George Krashos

"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
15675 Posts

Posted - 02 Mar 2018 :  18:08:28  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Thanks George!

And while I have your attention, on the Cormanthor map in issue #354 of Dragon, there is a site called 'Caronal' just above Mistledale - you wouldn't happen to now where that from?

Also, something I'm almost embarrassed to ask about - On my semi-old (like 6 years now) map Map of the North (really, the entirety of the Western Heartlands - pretty-much the same exact area Mike Schley covered in his 5e map), I have a mountain in Anauroch labeled 'Mount Skyfell' that I can turn up NOTHING on. Its between the Far Forest and the High Ice, and its not on any other maps. However, on the warped 3e maps there is a 'lonely mountain' just SW of the 'A' in Anauroch, so I think that's where I may have taken it from. But I have no idea about that name, unless I tried to find out where it came from, and then was like, "it just fell from the sky" (and so, I named it that). Weird thing is, I have no recollection of this, so I was hoping it might ring a bell for you (some obscure source that said 'something huge fell in the desert'). I used to never worry about making notes on stuff like this, but as I get older my memory isn't 100% anymore (when I was younger I had automatic 100% retention of EVERYTHING - I could literally repeat the lines of a movie I had just seen verbatim).

Alas, such has not been the case in years... getting old sucks.

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 03 Mar 2018 05:42:51
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
15675 Posts

Posted - 02 Mar 2018 :  19:15:05  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I've found some problems with the lore and locale placements on the Netheril map I a working on (not quite Netheril, but the Netheril locations will all be noted on it), as in, "it don't make sense".

For example, Wreath falls out right on top of Evereska, and since Evereska was established in -8600 DR, it makes no sense. It also makes no sense that there is zero interaction between Netheril and those elves, when both Illefarn and Eaerlann (and Delzoun) are named as trading partners, and the 'trademeet' town of Westwendt is right near there! Solution: Move Wreath into the northern section of the Greycloak Hills (as opposed to the southern section where Evereska is), and then just say that a very powerful series of Illusion magics were cast on Evereska to obscure it from the Netherese. The Mythal there would have been raised between -5300 DR (1st city Mythal) and the founding of Netheril in -3859 DR. However, the elves did not feel the illusions were necessary until the Netherse started showing magical might (or more likely, Thaeravel, which preceded Netheril and was right on Evereska's eastern border). So these illusions and obfuscation (anti-divination) magics were layered on top of the Mythal, and were powered by it, but NOT part of the original High-Magic ritual which created it. Thus, when The Weave fell in -339 DR, that magic was stripped away, leaving Evereska exposed. It was not discovered by non-elves until 244 DR (although one can surmise that the goblinoids and other monstrous types had been aware of it for most of that time after the 'Stealth' magic was ripped away). Evereskan elves wishing to trade at Westwendt and elsewhere would have simply posed as Illefarni of Earlann elves (humans would have never known the difference, and other elves certainly weren't telling).

Which brings me to Westwendt and Unity. Unity is a fortified city that was created to house not only Netherese troops, but those of the elves and dwarves as well, in order to combat the serious threat of humanoids and other monsters in the Greypeak Mountains. All four nations (possibly five if Evereska was sending disguised troops as well*) were present in Unity. Then we have the 'trade village' of Westwendt, where the elves and dwarves went to trade with the humans of Netheril (and laos the Angardt and rengerth, presumably. I'd probably lump the Thaeraviltes in there as well, early-on. In fact, it probably would make sense if it was original a Thaeravelan outpost FIRST... hmmmm...

Anyhow, it doesn't make sense (to me) that traders from Illefarn, Eaerlann, and Delzoun (those are specifically named in canon) would have marched all the way south, bypassing or going through unity, which was a city they already shared! While it could be said that Unity was primarily an armed camp, it was a permanent settlement, and unless there was a very strict law/reason for not allowing any 'non-essential personal' inside, I would think traders would have felt FAR safer trading there in tiny, remote (and often attacked) Westwendt. So my initial thoughts here was to simply swap the two around, so that traveling merchants would get to Westwendt first. However, my mentioning Thaeravel just now gave me an inspiration - what if Westwendt was the furthest NE city of Land of Alabaster Towers, and they were trading with the elves and dwarves (and others) first? Then the Netherese violently annex Thaeravel into their empire, and they build Unity, which slowly takes the place of old Westwendt.

Now, we have almost nothing on Thaeravel, but it seems to me that the best way to spin things in their case is that they weren't good. Maybe not 'evil', per se, but their fondness for 'Shadow Magic' probably made a lot of folk nervous, and the attack on them may have even been at the coaxing of the elves themselves (so rather than everyone getting angry at Netheril for their 'blitzkrieg tactics', they were likely relieved to have a potential threat averted) Unfortunately, Netheril itself eventually became a much bigger threat than Thaeravel ever was. The surviving Thaeravelites would have mostly been the 'commoners' - normal Talfirfolk who didn't care which group of foreigners ruled them (because in my version, expatriate Imaskari created Thaeravel). This is when the first signs of Netheril splitting into 'High' & 'Low' would have occurred - non-Netherese (people who were NOT of ancient Gur bloodlines) would have been 'looked down upon', both figuratively, and later, literally, as the enclaves rose into the sky. There were probably VERY strict rules about non-Netherse blooded people living in High Netheril, who were consider the 'elite' of their growing empire (much like the Romans who were actually from Rome).

So just about all of southern Netheril used to be Thaeravel, and the 'low' Netherese probably still preferred to trade at Westwendt, whereas the High netherese were able to conduct business at the Fortress-city of unity. Some of this is actually support by canon - Westwendt would often have to petition unity for help against humanoids and bandits, and Unity's response was usually underwhelming, giving me the distinct impression that 'the elite' looked down at most of the grundling settlements with great disdain, and did little to help them (they were almost always 'on their own'). This seems to go deeper than just a 'rise of aristocracy' and/or the usual class differences found among real human nations, which is why I get the distinct impression that there was a huge 'racial divide' as well. They literally let some settlements be wiped out (when the easily could have done something), while other settlements - ones that were of some importance to them - were protected and would retaliate explosively for harm done to them. I almost feel like when they 'ascended into the air', the Netherese left some of their humanity behind.

*EDIT:
And Ammarindar, which would have included Unity in its own lands later on.
quote:
–3373 DR
King Azkuldar of Ammarindar initiates trade relations with the magic-wielding humans of Netheril.

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 02 Mar 2018 19:23:31
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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore

Australia
5124 Posts

Posted - 03 Mar 2018 :  05:20:55  Show Profile Send George Krashos a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

Thanks George!

And while I have your attention, on the Cormanthor map in issue #354 of Dragon, there is a site called 'Caronal' just above Mistledale - you wouldn't happen to now where that from?

Also, something I'm almost embarrassed to ask about - On my semi-old (like 6 years now) map Map of the North (really, the entirety of the Western Heartlands - pretty-much the same exact area Mike Schley covered in his 5e map), I have a mountain in Anauroch labeled 'Mount Skyfell' that I can turn up NOTHING on. Its between the Far Forest and the High Ice, and its not on any other maps. However, on the warped 3e maps there is a 'lonely mountain' just SW of the 'A' in Anauroch, so I think that's where I may have taken it from. But I have no idea about that name, unless I tied to find out where it came from, and then was like, "it just fell from the sky" (and so, I named it that). Weird thing is, I have no recollection of this, so I was hoping it might ring a bell for you (some obscure source that said 'something huge fell in the desert'). I used to never worry about making notes on stuff like this, but as I get older my memory isn't 100% anymore (when I was younger I had automatic 100% retention of EVERYTHING - I could literally repeat the lines of a movie I had just seen verbatim).

Alas, such has not been the case in years... getting old sucks.



Caronal is from FOR1 Draconomicon (p.110) and Cult of the Dragon (p.49).

I've got nothing on Mount Skyfell. It might be a Markustay original.

-- George Krashos


"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
15675 Posts

Posted - 03 Mar 2018 :  05:41:20  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Thanks for the quick response GK. I'll have to write that one down in my geography notes.

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone

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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore

Australia
5124 Posts

Posted - 03 Mar 2018 :  05:42:39  Show Profile Send George Krashos a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Re Wreathe and Unity. Examining the lovely to look at but horribly drawn map from the Netheril boxed set - and if we take the Purple Mountains to be the Graycloak Hills and Evereskan Mountains (I think the southern mountain group isn't called the Graycloak Hills, but I digress) - then Unity is way to the north, bordering the current-day Far Forest on the east in my view, while Westwendt Village is on the western edge of that forest further south, bordering Ammarindar. I don't actually see Wreathe as that much of a problem. It is on the southwestern edge of the Evereskan Mountains bordering the current-day Forgotten Forest. The Netheril boxed set notes that humans don't enter the Purple Mountains because of dragons, and I see the Evereskan elves surrounding themselves with powerful dragons like Karselridrith ("Brightstrike" - I named her for Dragons of Faerûn) to deter other races while keeping their hidden city inviolate. The destruction of Wreathe only serves to ensure that no humans settle nearby after that event. I do like it being a northwestern settlement of fallen Thaeravel though. Given that it was a simple hunting village, I can't see the elves revealing themselves to do anything about it. When the humans started to explore the mountains more boldly, they used their controlled dragons to wipe them out.

-- George Krashos

P.S. Would love to get my hands on that Netheril map. Need the geography right in my head to sort out the place.

"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus

Edited by - George Krashos on 03 Mar 2018 05:43:34
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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore

Australia
5124 Posts

Posted - 03 Mar 2018 :  05:44:32  Show Profile Send George Krashos a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Re Wreathe and Unity. Examining the lovely to look at but horribly drawn map from the Netheril boxed set - and if we take the Purple Mountains to be the Graycloak Hills and Evereskan Mountains (I think the southern mountain group isn't called the Graycloak Hills, but I digress) - then Unity is way to the north, bordering the current-day Far Forest on the east in my view, while Westwendt Village is on the western edge of that forest further south, bordering Ammarindar. I don't actually see Wreathe as that much of a problem. It is on the southwestern edge of the Evereskan Mountains bordering the current-day Forgotten Forest. The Netheril boxed set notes that humans don't enter the Purple Mountains because of dragons, and I see the Evereskan elves surrounding themselves with powerful dragons like Karselridrith ("Brightstrike" - I named her for Dragons of Faerûn) to deter other races while keeping their hidden city inviolate. The destruction of Wreathe only serves to ensure that no humans settle nearby after that event. I do like it being a northwestern settlement of fallen Thaeravel though. Given that it was a simple hunting village, I can't see the elves revealing themselves to do anything about it. When the humans started to explore the mountains more boldly, they used their controlled dragons to wipe them out.

-- George Krashos

"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
15675 Posts

Posted - 03 Mar 2018 :  06:09:22  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Well, when I superimposed all the maps (I think I have 27 now 'stacked'), Wreathe falls-out practically on top of Evereska.

Another cool one is Lundeth and Thievesward are in basically the same spot. You can see it HERE on this snippet of the chrono-map I'm working on. The darker circle is my icon representing both (in other words, Lundeth was built on the ruins of Thievesward, which makes a lot of sense, when you think about it - just more crooks!) And as you can also see, Kismet and Rasalith are VERY much the same place (which screws the history up a bit, I'm afraid). Of course, something that eventually became part of the empire would have its history 'white-washed' but left primarily intact (the Netherese just erased all references to their southern holdings having once been Thaeravel). It was a fairly common practice RW, as well (erase the history of a place, and within one generation those people are your people).

Another oddity was that Ammarindar's Citadel Yaunoroth wound-up VERY close to the Ruins of Dekanter, but Dekanter has moved around a lot and it also makes some sense, since Ammarindar and Netheril were friends at the beginning, but then the dwarves stopped trusting them (so, drop a fortress near their annoying mining-operation to keep an eye on them).

This is WHY I do this - as I work on these, the maps start to tell me a story.

Like, for instance, why doesn't the Battle of Bones exist at the time of Netheril? Its more like a vast 'debris field' ('riddled with caves and tunnels'). Seems to me like something exploded over that spot (it couldn't have just crashed - it is spread-out to much). Unless.... it was very large enclave that was VERY high... hit the ground like a meteor and blew apart (the place does look a LOT like a crater in the Elminster's Ecologies booklet). But I'm actually thinking about repurposing the one Erin mentioned in her books, that wasn't even in the Netheril box - Tenish. I'd expand the name though (something like Tenishaar, or the like). In her lore another mage - Tarchamus the Unyielding - blew it up. That works for me.

What I love about all this is that I'm following Ed's vision - ruins built on top of ruins built on top of ruins, etc. When you dig in the anywhere in the Realms, you'll soon be finding the 'bones' of the last folk who lived there.

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 06 Mar 2018 22:03:00
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Elren_Wolfsbane
Learned Scribe

USA
105 Posts

Posted - 03 Mar 2018 :  08:00:17  Show Profile Send Elren_Wolfsbane a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I was just thinking, I would love to see a working map of the feywild. I'm currently running a campaign where my players might possibly Venture into the feywild and there is very limited Maps.

If I could find a few Maps like the fey Court, I can just use theater of the Mind for the rest. Anyone know where I can find such thing?

Aa' lasser en`coialle n`natula brown.

(May the leaves of your life tree never turn brown)

-Elren Wolfsbane
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
15675 Posts

Posted - 03 Mar 2018 :  17:42:10  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
There was a map in Heroes of the Feywild, but if you want a better resolution than THIS, you'll have to purchase it from Mike Schley's site - (Its only $2).

I have plans to do a very un-detailed, world-map kind of thing eventually, and I say 'undetailed' because we are talking about a plane that's basically a miniature copy of the entire known material universe. LOL

Hey Krash, where was Uvarean? The only post I found on this site was one made by me 10 years ago, and it was just a reference to their burial rites. It was also know as "The Lorelands", and must have been fairly close to - or IN - Cormyr.

EDIT:
Nevermind - should have kept reading. It appears to have been centered on Mistledale. That should prove helpful...

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 03 Mar 2018 17:46:20
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dazzlerdal
Great Reader

United Kingdom
3934 Posts

Posted - 03 Mar 2018 :  19:19:34  Show Profile Send dazzlerdal a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I though uvaraen was that place with the super library that got hit by the meteor that separated arcorar into cormanthor and rystall wood.

Which i think should put it in teshendale which no longer exists. But then again i might be thinking of a different event and elven realm and i dont really know where mistledale is so ignore me im not helping.

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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
15675 Posts

Posted - 03 Mar 2018 :  21:11:36  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
But according to the lore regarding the Lorestaffs of Uvarean, some of the famous 'libraries' of Uvarean can be unearthed in Mistledale (it DOES say most were destroyed, though). So, Uvarean's capital may have been at one site (the center point for the meteor impact), while there may have been another university-like settlement around Mistledale. Okay, so I just now discovered that at some point, 'Uvarean' was changed to Uvaeren' - no wonder I couldn't find anything!!!

Now, superimposing the maps have revealed to me that the whole of the east (from Netheril) was forest, and then stuff happened and on the survivor-state map, it shows areas where there is no forest, and then later - on 'modern' maps - some of that forest is back. The only problem with all that is that that meteor ('tearfall') hit that area in -5000 DR, WAY before Netheril ever existed (Seventon was founded in -3859 DR). So we can't blame that phenomena on that tearfall (although, once you start really studying the histories and geography, you realize Toril gets hit with a planet-killer sized asteroid about every other week LOL). No wonder there are so many damn craters everywhere....

As for the inconsistencies with Uvaeren/Uvarean, I have several ways to resolve that, and all of them revolve around the two slightly different names. I think the best would be this: Uvaeren was the 'realm', and it existed as part of Cormanthyr (when the forest was 'whole'). Uvarean was the capitol, and it was located in the region of Mistledale (not that far away, really). Ya know, 'Mistledale' looks like a swath of woods that got hit with a 'missile' - a shallow-trajectory impact, burning the surrounding trees as it skidded along the ground. Hmmmmm... never realized it before, but that clump of mountains at the far end of that theoretical impact has never had a name in canon. I always assume it was a northern extension of the Thunder Peaks, but now I am thinking I have been very, VERY wrong. I see the word 'shadow' appears around there a lot. Hmmm hmmm HMMMMMM...

Anyhow, back to Uv-whatever. Moander... errrr... I mean 'big giant rock'... comes crashing to Toril, and the majority of the realm (Uvaeren) winds up north of the 'scar'. Pieces of the main object break-off and wreak havoc in other parts of the forest, including one fairly large piece that strikes Uvarean, the capital, which is situated around Mistledale. Now, Elven architecture isn't anything like human's. In the past few millennia 'bad habits' have rubbed-off, but Elves do NOT build great, closely-clustered, high-building metropoli. An eleven 'city' could spread over 50 miles, with some buildings acres - even miles - apart. This was Mistledale, the old 'city' of Uvarean. After the tearfall only the northern portion (The Border Forest) is still considered Uvaeren, although The coronal and nearly all of Uvaeren’s noble houses die instantly or during the conflagration. Few Uvaeranni escape to the safety of deeper Arcorar, aside from those few dozen away from the realm during this disaster."

And yet, there are still entries for 'Rystel Wood' with a caronel. How peculiar.

The elves history is a complete MESS. Uvaeren could NOT have BEEN Rystal wood, because THAT realm still existed. Uvaeren was definitely IN Mistledale and the surrounding region - it even had interaction with early Cormyr (there are tombs there from Uvarean). Rystal Wood was further north, and still existed after the Twelve Nights of Fire. I am starting to think that separation in the forest of Cormanthor form The Border Forest is NOT the same event nor area that these events are talking about!

I don't need to split that 'tearfall' (although it does make sense -- normal meteorites DO do that). That IS the one that created the way Mistledale looks now - the forest never regrew there (as it had in other places). I just now found what I was looking for -
quote:
–2439 DR
The Spiderfires: Drow inflict the greatest damage upon the forests since the Twelve Nights of Fire by setting the southern Rystall Woods aflame with a swarm of spiders made from arcane fire. After a long, dry summer, the woods burn easily. This clears nearly one hundred miles of forest south of the River Tesh, severs the southernmost part of the woods around and to the west of the Twisted Tower from the greater Rystall Woods, and widens the cleared lands between them and Cormanthor.

I KNEW there had to be a second fire! The Twelve Nights of fire created Mistledale, where Uvaeren/Uvarean was. All that woods north and west of Mistldale was part of Rystall Wood, including Shadowdale . I think there was some mountains there (and those 'crystaline' mountains still exist on Abeir, but have appeared in that area at least TWICE during times of 'magical chaos'), but the 'object' that fell from the sky obliterated the existing range and created just that mass that sits there, between the Thunderpeaks and Desertsmouth... Ummmm....

Going ALL THE WAY back, even pre-1e, I see that that was one long, continuous chain of mountains - even on the Fonstad atlas maps, the mountains to the 'left' of the Dales are considered part of the Thunderpeaks!

I was hoping to link this to the butterfly-shaped thing that hit Cormyr, but that must have been MUCH more ancient. My head is starting to hurt. I just want to draw pretty maps. I am starting to get this weird idea that Ravenloft and The Forgotten Realms are much more alike than I had ever thought.

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 03 Mar 2018 21:20:33
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dazzlerdal
Great Reader

United Kingdom
3934 Posts

Posted - 03 Mar 2018 :  22:00:00  Show Profile Send dazzlerdal a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Ilodhar was an elven realm that used to be centred on the hidden vale.

I cant remember what my fix for the forest being there once, then not during netheril and then there again after.

I think i pegged it to ioulaums excursion to extinction in the dragon back peaks undoing part of the sarrukh magic that changed the flow of the narrow sea (thus unflooding the phaerimm gate between toril and their extradimensional realm). The changing water table caused water to return to their natural flow north and east of the scimitar spires which over the millennia of netherils existence allowed the forests to regrow.

Ill have to look it up later but im pretty sure illodhar helped the forests grow even though the water table couldnt support it (thanks to sarrukh meddling). The goblinoids destroyed illodhar and cut down lots of trees leaving it a barren wasteland (and preventing the netherese from finding the hidden vale until the mythallar age). The ioulaum undid some of the sarrukh meddling and the water returned and so did the forest. Then the phaerimm and the desert happened.

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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
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Posted - 04 Mar 2018 :  20:16:35  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Well, I have never been big on Elven history. I avoided Cormnathyr because I felt a lot of elven history was contradictory to other things (for example, a LOT of Nethril lore). FR lore 'looks good' in close-up, regionally, but when you 'pan back' it starts to stop making sense. The reason why maps take me so goddamn long is because each 12-hour day I spend working on them, only a half hour goes to drawing and 11½ goes to me looking for all the 'WTF' moments in the the lore.

And then I get people who ABSOLUTELY insist that two things must be different things, just because we have two names for it, even if the two things existed in the same place at the same time. I've pulled my hair out over one of those conundrums awhile back, when someone I respect very much refused to say two forests were the same, even though I proved they had to be, geographically. And there was a VERY simple fix for it - one name derived directly from Elven lore, and the other, human lore, and yet that person didn't want to do that because it 'mucked with his history' for the region. Sometimes leaving lore 'pristine' (no alterations) is worse, IMHO, than trying to fudge stuff to the point of implausibility (and I've giving up on the "two different versions of the same NPC" thing a long time ago - that ship has sailed).

And the idea that there were 'different forests' in the Heartlands is ludicrous in and of itself. There were TWO, and just barely - one on one side of the plains of Anauroch, and one on the other - a thousand or so years ago. If you go back further, even that region was probably covered with trees. What comes off as 'separate forests' in elven lore is more like 'districts' in human thinking - there was no actual, physical separation - no empty swath of land between stands of trees! Funny how folks who design fantasy settings for a living can't wrap their mind around the idea that the same concepts might mean very different things in an alien culture. For example, the difference between an elven 'city' and an elven 'realm' would be negligible; elven 'cities' were large, sprawling affairs where the buildings would have been very far - perhaps in miles in some cases - apart. Both words would have translated pretty-much into elven as the same word. Country/nation would also be less geographic, and more based upon which 'realm' a group of elves answered to, and thus, part of one 'kingdom' could lie within other 'kingdoms' - they had no concept of 'borders' (which is why FR doesn't have the concept - in a world where humans learned culture form others, these sorts of things would have carried-over; Ed Greenwood is a VERY smart man). The dwarves even more so - you could literally have kingdoms 'stacked' one atop the other, and if they are far enough apart (depth), they may not even be aware of each other. Thus, the dwarven ideas of 'realms' would different from both the elves and the humans (dwarves would find it hysterical that earthlings consider everything 'straight down' from them theirs... when it all 'meets in the middle' anyway (think about THAT, when you consider things like oil-drilling 'rights'). Earthers also consider everything above their land theirs (the concept of 'airspace'), which would also be laughable in the Realms. When you have folks living both above and below you, the whole idea of 'borders' goes right out the window.

Yet, rather than try to reinterpret all the lore with that in mind, the powers that be instead try to keep it all strictly to the human definitions, which causes inconsistencies, and we windup getting convoluted stories to explain the inconsistencies... which were never really there in the first place. {sigh}

I may just finish a part of this map - the part that initially interested me (and then just kept growing as I went 'further out' to see what would have been there). I started out just wanting to know where the damn Shaddan Hills were (and they weren't at all where I thought they were - in fact, they become problematic). trying to get the Netheril (and survivor-state) maps to work within the greater FR lore is a chore, but it gets so much worse when I start having to backwards-engineer 3e and 4e map stuff (have you ever tried to apply the Monument of the Ancients map to a real FR map? HAVE FUN). This is why when I get to the Unapproachable east (very soon - my main project has become linked to someone else's), I have used the maps from the 3e source book, because they were the most detailed, and it was far easier for me to 'fudge' the old geography to fit that, then the other way around (something I totally DIDN'T do when working on the Heartlands).

But the Moonsea area has always been my albatross - no two maps - even form the same edition - are quite the same. Someday I'll get it perfect...

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 04 Mar 2018 20:49:01
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
15675 Posts

Posted - 05 Mar 2018 :  00:20:42  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
So I just did something new. I've used the Fonstad atlas maps for the basis for most of my maps, because according to Ed, "they are the most like my original Realms". Now, I stopped using the atlas itself years ago, because I found a really good scan someone did online, piecing it all together. Thus, I rarely ever reference the atlas itself, except on the very few occasions when something doesn't appear on the main maps (like the lake in the Evermoor).

But today - in my desire to get 'the most perfect' rendition of Cormyr ever (and I've started about 20 Cormyr maps, at least, but have never published any of them because I never finished any), I went into the atlas itself and grabbed one of the close-up maps she did for the Eastern heartlands, and a LOT of stuff 'pops' much more clearly when I did this (I also pasted both halves into a blown-up rendition of the main map, and it didn't even line-up perfectly - so maps even within the same product are sometimes slightly inconsistent (and yeah, its that damn Moonsea again LOL). I'm pretty certain Zhentil Keep is on wheels, and they just shove the thing around every once in awhile.

ANYWAY, I noticed something that is not evident on any other maps, and since Karen Fonstad had access to all of Ed's originals - and was also able to interact with him while it was being made - I have to assume this isn't something she just made up herself. The Wyvernwater is sitting in a depression; there are cliffs all around it. Now, I have always felt that something slammed into Cormyr many millennia ago - it may have been part of the same object that created the Sea of Fallen Stars, and I am glad to finally see some hard evidence to that effect.

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 06 Mar 2018 21:59:42
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dazzlerdal
Great Reader

United Kingdom
3934 Posts

Posted - 05 Mar 2018 :  08:33:47  Show Profile Send dazzlerdal a Private Message  Reply with Quote
You do love your meteor strikes. It could just be a massive sinkhole.

About uvaeren existing in two different places, what if the few survivors of uvaeren went south and tried to recreate the realm and called it uvaereen.

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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore

Australia
5124 Posts

Posted - 05 Mar 2018 :  11:06:47  Show Profile Send George Krashos a Private Message  Reply with Quote
So after all those posts Mark, and after having a re-read of Cormanthyr, what’s the problem with Uvaeren? The timeline entry for -5000 DR (p.33) seems pretty clear.

— George Krashos

"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
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Posted - 05 Mar 2018 :  18:59:29  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Actually, it wasn't very clear at all. Thats why I had to find a second 'burning incident', which I did. It was right there where I thought it should be (the fire, not Uvaeren).

But the thing that started me down that path was that someone thought it would be a good idea to change the name. I was searching for Uvarean in my pdf sources, and it wasn't coming up. Changing the names of things might have seemed like a good idea back when people mostly used physical books, but with pdfs it becomes a HUGE problem. I had at first thought there was no further info on the place.

quote:
Originally posted by dazzlerdal

You do love your meteor strikes. It could just be a massive sinkhole.

About uvaeren existing in two different places, what if the few survivors of uvaeren went south and tried to recreate the realm and called it uvaereen.
The whole planet is one giant meteor strike!!! Mountains do NOT form into ring-patterns naturally. A planet-killer asteroid slams into Toril about once a week, and no-one bats an eye or even seems to remember all of them. Its almost like FR is some sort... 'make believe' setting.

Tis unnatural, I tell ye!

Uvaereen? Now you're you're just messing with me!

EDIT:
@Krash - I finally pasted together the 'North' map from the Netheril source (I had never bothered before). When you mentioned how awful the Netheril map was I didn't think it was all that bad, but now that I have the other one I see what you mean. The one of the 'empire' (really, it was a very loose confederation, and barely even that - more like allied citystates) has a few problems I can easily fix, but that one of the Western Heartlands simply ignores all other FR history. It also gets the forests wrong (among so many other things).

I think you (and perhaps Eric, if he ever comes back around) will like my solution for the Elven port (Aerendel). Its very 'gamey'.

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 06 Mar 2018 00:40:07
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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore

Australia
5124 Posts

Posted - 05 Mar 2018 :  21:34:57  Show Profile Send George Krashos a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Drop me an e-mail with your thoughts Mark. Always happy to chat Realms.

— George Krashos

"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
15675 Posts

Posted - 06 Mar 2018 :  01:17:45  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Once I have something 'showable', I plan to get help from everyone.

It will be like a community-wide "find whats wrong/find whats missing" game.

EDIT:
Tried opening my Main mapping project map again... crashed again. I guess I am not allowed to ever go back to that.
EDT2:
Tried to extract pieces of it into a smaller map, so I can still work on it, and GIMP crashed again as I was saving that new file... the one I just pasted a bunch of layers into from the other one...

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 06 Mar 2018 02:29:26
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sleyvas
Great Reader

USA
7054 Posts

Posted - 06 Mar 2018 :  13:32:42  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

quote:
Originally posted by dazzlerdal

You do love your meteor strikes. It could just be a massive sinkhole.

About uvaeren existing in two different places, what if the few survivors of uvaeren went south and tried to recreate the realm and called it uvaereen.
The whole planet is one giant meteor strike!!! Mountains do NOT form into ring-patterns naturally. A planet-killer asteroid slams into Toril about once a week, and no-one bats an eye or even seems to remember all of them. Its almost like FR is some sort... 'make believe' setting.

Tis unnatural, I tell ye!




I do agree that there's certain areas that I think were formed as a part of meteor strikes. It may be worth documenting the ones we really feel are related to such. I'd also put forth that I'm not saying that all of these "asteroid strikes" have happened in the last say 37 thousand years. I've become enamored of the idea that there may have been multiple "shadow epochs"... but we only KNOW of the one that happened just prior to the Days of Thunder. In fact, Shar may not be "multi-spheric" as some believe, and the other worlds that she's "destroyed" have been during other shadow epochs in realmspace. Creatures like the Phaerimm may have survived these previous shadow epochs, as well as beings like the the Githvyrik known as Vhostym (a lot of these Githvyrik would have been a lot weaker than him mind you... more like "normal drow level"). These githvyrik may have also combat the aberrations like the mind flayers and aboleth... but I don't want to stray to far off topic.

METEOR STRIKES I FAVOR
Halruaa is one, especially since Ed confirmed when asked.

Part of me thinks that the escarpments of Thay are another which also helped form paths for volcanic activity (this I'd call some kind of angled strike).

Then there's the inner sea formation. Also the Dragon Sea formation (which I believe was separate but ultimately ended up making the inner sea bigger).

I also believe that the event that created the great rift and also the landrise both are related to a meteor strike.

Beyond that, I'd posit that the mountains surrounding the Raurin might be another possibility and maybe the Imaskari were attracted there for some strange magical energy (which btw, the Mulan gods may have sucked down to make their manifestations more powerful).

I'd also lay Samarach in this same possibility (and furthermore, I wouldn't be surprised if the elven sundering didn't involve the slamming of a meteor into Samarach in the ancient past... that being how they broke apart Merrobouros... furthermore, this slamming of a meteor in the past may have CAUSED one of the earlier shadow epochs by raising up enough material to cloud the sun in the sky... but then we get into the effects of time travel and my head hurts).


OUTSIDE OF FAERUN
Also, since we have a free hand with things in the area, I also like the idea that the middle of Katashaka may have seen several smaller strikes along its middle which made an area of high mountains that's separating part of the continent from other parts of the continent.


In Maztica, I wouldn't be surprised if the "House of Tezca" desert isn't the result of a meteor strike... possibly one that happened long, long ago and they eventually built the "City of the Gods" known as Tewahca above it. Possibly having their worshippers build said city millenia ago was a way for the gods to establish a funnel into this power source (there may be little power left in it). These worshippers eventually died out or moved south into Lopango mostly until the Mazticans moved in after following some tunnels under the earth (presumably from Kara-Tur, which is where the people of Anchorome came from).

This one I'd be a bit less "sure of", but it would work. Up in Anchorome, there's also the Pasocada Basin. In there is the city of Michaca, which is along a river down which comes "Micha" which is a golden dust with ties to magic (it "enhances" magic). If this golden dust were tied to a water flow slowing draining out earthen bits that pass near some radiation source and become "enhanced" we've got a decent story for Micha. This river which contains Micha is called "the sun trail" and it leads to "the sun canyon" which leads to "Wenimats", which also in my view "sun" and "meteors" also have similar "origins" oftentimes. It wouldn't take much to redesign the Azuposi divine realms to make them something tied to Toril as a demiplane and having their gods thus not necessarilyhaving outer planar residences (if for instance they are primal spirits and primordials and they can't for some "divine reason" tie themselves to an outer planar divine domain) .

Then also in Maztica there's Far Payit where about "a thousand years ago" a smaller asteroid strike occurred bringing H'Calos the Star Worm


Just a little bit from City of Gold about Wenimats. Basically, just like how the spirit world of Kara-Tur is locally adjacent to their realm, I'm kind of picturing the same thing for Anchorome. In fact, since the people of Anchorome are believed to be FROM Kara-Tur, this may have some reasons why its similar.

Wenimats
A demi-plane connected to the second layer of the Happy Hunting Grounds is the abode of the Azuposi divinities, and the interim, or final, resting-place of Azuposi souls. It is also adjacent to the Astral Plane, and has some direct connections to the Prime Material Plane. Wenimats, as this locale is called, is reached by following the Sun Trail, a pathway strewn with eternally fragrant pollen and cornmeal. The Sun Trail extends permanently to the Happy Hunting Grounds, and weaves its way in an irregular and changing fashion through the Astral Plane to the Prime Material.

Homebrew notes: So, based on the above, Wenimats is a demiplane reachable via walking into the sun canyon. This could be seen as just an awakening into this other world which is "right next to" their own (which if one thinks about it, has all kinds of implications with Abeir... or rather are Abeir and Toril the only two worlds). It has a connection to the "Happy Hunting Grounds", which COULD just be a portal. It also has a connection to the Astral, which actually could just be changed to a connection to the Fugue Plane... noting this was written way back in 1992 before the concept of the Fugue Plane existed, so the astral link was probably there so that there could be a "path" for souls to go where they needed which would be replaced by the link to the fugue plane.

The Azuposi describe Wenimats as being like the most beautiful mountains. To the Azuposi, mountains are a rich, flourishing terrain (they tend to receive more rain than the desert lowlands). Wenimats sports cool lakes, bubbling brooks, forests of every sort of tree, sunny meadows, and an abundance of game.

In the center of Wenimats are the kivas where the shiwannas, the benevolent spirits of the Azuposi dead, gather. In the center of the kivas is a gigantic bowl, which is ever full of water. The shiwannas take the water from the bowl and distribute it to the Azuposi lands as rain.

Other locations in Wenimats include Maski#151;, Skeleton House, where Masauwu lives. Some sacred graveyards may have gateways to Maski, for Masauwu leads the spirits of the Azuposi departed to Wenimats through his house.


Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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sleyvas
Great Reader

USA
7054 Posts

Posted - 06 Mar 2018 :  14:06:13  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Hmm, additions to the above. What if the Calimemnon Crystal wasn't "created" by the elven high magic ritual the trapped Calim and Memnon. What if this crystal was ALSO an asteroid, and the elves using High Magic to entrap the two powerful genies within it.

To add further to this concept, what if old Calimshan was lush because of the powers of this crystal's radiation. This will sound a bit like sacrilege to some, but what if Elven High Magic is the elves learning to tap into these alternative radiation sources to perform extremely powerful acts. Maybe this is what drew the Ilythiiri to the south where the Shaar is (i.e. near Halruaa and later further north where the landrise/great rift are). What if sometimes in drawing on this power source (which is life nurturing), somehow they taint this power source. In many ways, this could actually portray the nature loving elves as defilers.

Along this same line, perhaps what the Phaerimm "lifedrain" effects did was something similar, with maybe the area that was Netheril and is now Anauroch being "pockmarked" with smaller asteroid hits (though some of this material may even be terrestrial in origin... don't have to have everything having fallen from the sky). In fact, what was the crystal that was in this area that the Netherese were mining (ah, Chardalyn). Perhaps Chardalyn was this material. Maybe Chardalyn was something the Phaerimm were targeting with their lifedrain spells and tainting it (or for that matter, maybe they were just sucking all the juice out of it since the Netherese had discovered it).

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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