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Riley37
Acolyte
USA
35 Posts |
 Posted - 12 Jun 2015 : 11:20:43
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5E PHB does not list Asmodeus under "Deities of the Forgotten Realms".
Are there worshippers of Asmodeus? Are there actual clerics? Is he a patron of warlocks?
I'm writing out an NPC, owner of a restaurant, casino, pawnshop and brothel, who also dabbles as a fence and blackmailer; the wealthiest tiefling in the city, and one who profits from the sins of his customers.
As I understand it, Asmodeus and Tiamat are usually at odds, correct? This makes him a possible ally against Cult of the Dragon... a lesser evil, by some margin.
Are Bane and Asmodeus sometimes or always allied, sometimes or always opposed?
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Cyrinishad
Learned Scribe
300 Posts |
Posted - 12 Jun 2015 : 18:50:53
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I thought the ascension of Asmodeus to Deity status was one of the things that 4E fumbled, and 5E was fixing it?
It was my understanding that part of what was driving the conflict between Bane and the Cult of the Dragon was that Bane enabled Szass Tam to eliminate the other Red Wizards and create an Undead Thayan Empire. Then Asmodeus enables both Szass Tam and Tiamat to betray Bane, and become allies with him in this new Cult of the Dragon. Asmodeus gives Tiamat dominion over the first layer of the Nine Hells, and Szass Tam is promised the Deity Portfolio that Asmodeus took from Azuth.
Hence, the power of Bane and the Zhentarim is brought back to the classic representation of being focused in the Moonsea area. While simultaneously bringing Asmodeus back to being the more classic version of "Timeless Evil that manipulates both Gods and Men", and isn't shackled by needing worshipers.
And yes, Asmodeus should be tied to Warlocks not Clerics. (He's not the only option for Warlocks that make a Pact with a Fiend, but he's an obvious one).
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To know, is to know that you know nothing. That is the meaning of true knowledge. -Socrates
Don't cry because it's over. Smile because it happened. -Dr. Seuss |
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Riley37
Acolyte
USA
35 Posts |
Posted - 13 Jun 2015 : 05:53:22
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If you count leaving Asmodeus off the deity list as "fixing", then yes, it's fixed. If you have higher standards, then opinions vary.
If someone became a warlock of Asmodeus, what deity or deities would be valid choices? You know, deities who would claim their souls at judgement on the Fugue Plane?
If someone were not a warlock at all, but they were owner of a restaurant, casino, pawnshop and brothel, who also dabbles as a fence and blackmailer, the wealthiest tiefling in the city, and one who profits from the sins of his customers... then what would their relationship with Asmodeus be, and what deity would receive their faith? |
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hashimashadoo
Master of Realmslore
United Kingdom
1150 Posts |
Posted - 13 Jun 2015 : 21:19:39
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People have been worshiping Asmodeus as a god long before 4th edition. It was the 3rd ed Book of Vile Darkness that explained how such an archfiend worshiper could become a cleric (the fiend makes a deal with a deity to provide spells to their worshipers in exchange for something that the god wants) and I'd guess that the same logic would apply.
The tricky part is finding a Lawful Evil god whom Asmodeus hasn't hacked off enough to prevent the deal being made. |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7970 Posts |
Posted - 14 Jun 2015 : 01:37:18
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Even modules for 1E AD&D (and for pre-1E D&D before that) described people/monsters worshipping nasty old arch-fiends as powers - and sometimes being granted powers in return for their faith/sacrifices.
Theological distinctions in D&D have been argued to death in numerous scrolls at the keep. Some 2E Planescape lore, 3E sourcebooks, and 4E's entire "Primordial" angle just keep the fires going.
I don't personally see any functional difference between the divine(?) stations of Asmodeus and, say, Lolth. Or Shar. Or Tyr. Or Selune. |
[/Ayrik] |
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Riley37
Acolyte
USA
35 Posts |
Posted - 14 Jun 2015 : 13:30:34
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I gather that 4E and related stories emphasized that the gods are not constant. Thus, you can commit your soul to a patron deity, but that deity might die or lose deity status or otherwise change. If that happens on the day you die - then too bad, you lived a life of devotion and now you're Faithless at the Citadel of Judgement, because your god got demoted/relocated/killed and thus cannot claim your soul.
Anyways, I'm going with the NPC Cleric worshipping Asmodeus, unless persuaded otherwise. I need a "Sin" clerical domain now! |
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Cyrinishad
Learned Scribe
300 Posts |
Posted - 15 Jun 2015 : 07:13:16
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quote:
Originally posted by Riley37
If you count leaving Asmodeus off the deity list as "fixing", then yes, it's fixed. If you have higher standards, then opinions vary.
 I didn't count leaving Asmodeus off a list as fixing anything. Thank goodness I didn't settle for that, I wouldn't want people to think I have low standards. I asked an open question to the forum about whether my understanding of events surrounding Asmodeus Deity status were accurate. It's entirely possible that Asmodeus retains Deity status, and just isn't on the list presented in the 5th edition PHB... The list presented in the PHB doesn't look like a comprehensive list.
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To know, is to know that you know nothing. That is the meaning of true knowledge. -Socrates
Don't cry because it's over. Smile because it happened. -Dr. Seuss |
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Cyrinishad
Learned Scribe
300 Posts |
Posted - 15 Jun 2015 : 14:37:58
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I think Ayrik & Hashimashadoo hit it right on the money, since the distinctions are constantly changing, and divine magic encompasses more than just Deities. I can't remember which scroll I read it in, but the interpretation of Deity as a Template that can be added or removed from an entity seemed pretty solid from a game mechanics perspective.
I haven't found anything to say that having a Dead Deity or Former Deity, as a Patron Deity would constitute a Soul's classification as Faithless. My interpretation of that circumstance would be that the Soul is a Petitioner. It will essentially be wandering the Fugue Plane for eternity waiting for a representative of their missing Deity to retrieve them.
I think this ties in nicely with the Baatezu (servants of Asmodeus) that are permitted by Kelemvor to try and convince the wandering Souls of Petitioners to become Devils.
The concept of "Sin" in the Realms is a bit tricky too, and I think it's been discussed in other scrolls at length. The short version is that a "Sin" is not a singularly definable group of behaviors in the Realms. It is essentially something that would cause Kelemvor to classify a Soul as being False, which means every Deity can have different criteria.
All of which, brings me back to considering Asmodeus to be more functional in the context of the Realms as a Non-Deity, that leverages the way the Afterlife and Patron Deities function to undermine all of the Deities through "Sin".
In the Cosmology of the Realms, I think Asmodeus' strategy would be to weaken the Deities through "Sin", constantly try and keep the Deities in conflict with each other until they are all Dead/Banished/Demoted/Etc. Thereby moving Faerun away from a vibrant Polytheistic world toward a faithful Monotheistic world that worships Dead/False Deities. If he can orchestrate that, all souls would sit on the Fugue Plane for eternity waiting to be retrieved by gods that don't exist, or become Devils themselves.
EDIT NOTE: I had to make a slight correction (changed the word Faithless to Faithful). On Asmodeus ideal world he would be best served by mortals who are invested in converting everyone to the Monotheistic worship of a dead god, thereby maximizing his opportunities to turn Souls into Devils. If a world realized that all their gods were dead and Asmodeus was manipulating their faith, it would be counter to his interests. If a world becomes Faithless, Asmodeus fails because Faithless souls would still become consigned to the Wall surrounding the City of Judgement, which would maximize the number of Demons that can be created to fight against the Devils. |
To know, is to know that you know nothing. That is the meaning of true knowledge. -Socrates
Don't cry because it's over. Smile because it happened. -Dr. Seuss |
Edited by - Cyrinishad on 15 Jun 2015 15:23:34 |
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GungHo
Seeker
USA
68 Posts |
Posted - 15 Jun 2015 : 15:43:41
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Ignoring 4E...
In the Realms, Asmodeus has been represented as being a near god, along with Demon Lords like Demogorgon and Orcus, and particularly has solid dominion over the Nine Hells. Thematically, Bane usually had the portfolio that Asmodeus would take in other worlds (e.g. Pathfinder universe) until Bane died, but he didn't leave that portfolio to Asmodeus... he left it to Cyric and then to himself (as his own son, which wasn't all that weird compared to some of the strangeness that existed in, say Greek or Egyptian mythology).
Asmodeus has had several plots where he tried to assume certain aspects of godhood, such as gaining and empowering worshipers, so that part's not weird. Him giving power to warlocks is part and parcel. It makes a lot of sense... heck, I'd expect him to even "farm" some of that out to folks like Mephistopheles to run the farm team and only really deal with the All Stars himself. I wouldn't say giving power to clerics is necessarily off base, but in the Realms, there are rules about what gods and non-gods can do, so I could also see where someone could say that it's out of bounds if they say you have to be an actual deity to grant clerical magic. |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11696 Posts |
Posted - 15 Jun 2015 : 23:36:12
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This is just opinion here, BUT
My personal take is that "god" is a "template" like many have said. Whenever a "power" isn't a god yet, maybe they work through mortals by making warlocks or making a "spirit being" (aka something like a vestige)that pact magic users can channel. Eventually, they gain enough "worship energy" that they can start empowering clerics instead of the "easier to empower but more costly" warlocks and binders. This may be why religions don't like warlocks and pact magic users. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11696 Posts |
Posted - 15 Jun 2015 : 23:38:16
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| Oh, and along those lines, beings who are still "fledgling" gods may continue to "fuel" warlocks and binders even after they can make clerics, just in case they ever lose the god template they don't lose that power base. So, you could easily explain why various demon lords have clerics, warlocks, and binders. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7970 Posts |
Posted - 16 Jun 2015 : 01:43:00
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Asmodeus, I think, would never "farm out" maintenance of his own worshippers to Mephistopheles. They are more than rivals, almost enemies - neither will be satisfied with less than ultimate dominion over the Nine Hells (and perhaps the rest of the D&D cosmos, too). Asmodeus doesn't even trust his own lieutenants and proxies, too many of them (even his own offspring) have attempted to overthrow him. Remember that these are archfiends, they are the ultimate expression of Lawful Evil, formed from the concentrated LE stuff of Baator itself.
My only real issue with Asmodeus in the Realms is that his portfolio and function overlaps exactly with Bane's. While at the same time we see many examples in Realmslore of the pantheon being "simplified" - redundant deities are often revealed to be aspects of each other. Why bother working up Asmodeus so much while dismissing Gruumsh as just another name for Talos? |
[/Ayrik] |
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Cyrinishad
Learned Scribe
300 Posts |
Posted - 16 Jun 2015 : 20:41:14
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quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
My only real issue with Asmodeus in the Realms is that his portfolio and function overlaps exactly with Bane's. While at the same time we see many examples in Realmslore of the pantheon being "simplified" - redundant deities are often revealed to be aspects of each other. Why bother working up Asmodeus so much while dismissing Gruumsh as just another name for Talos?
I actually don't mind the redundancy of portfolios, or different gods being aspects of other gods and stuff, because ultimately all the gods are tied back to the archetype western creation mythology anyway. So, all the gods are really just aspects of the same 10 or so creation concepts.
And since the functionality of Toril is almost as a Nexus Point for all different possible realities; the gods would know this too. So it makes sense to see what is essentially duplication of the same god concepts, but as separate entities with their own conciousness, and different names and descriptions. My example of this would be Shar and Lolth. They are they same deity concepts from their respective creation myths.
As well as gods or entities that take advantage of the duplication effect by creating false duplicates or "aspects"... My theory on the Talos/Gruumsh thing is: Talos = Gruumsh = Ghaunadaur = The Elder Elemental Evil.
Additioinally, there is a kind of cyclical progression to creation myths. So, having Bane as a mortal that ascends to deity status and declare that he essentially wants the godly powers Asmodeus already has makes sense. As does Cyric obtaining godhood by pursuing Bane.
A to B to C... |
To know, is to know that you know nothing. That is the meaning of true knowledge. -Socrates
Don't cry because it's over. Smile because it happened. -Dr. Seuss |
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Asmodeus and Clerics
