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Seravin
Master of Realmslore

Canada
1265 Posts

Posted - 24 Feb 2020 :  14:46:10  Show Profile Send Seravin a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Viking - all this talk of devils/demons etc from Brimstone Angels, did you ever read Lord Toede by Jeff Grubb? Set in Dragonlance sort of, it is a crazy book that has a large connection to the Abyss and reads more like Planescape than Dragonlance.
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AJA
Senior Scribe

USA
747 Posts

Posted - 25 Feb 2020 :  00:30:22  Show Profile Send AJA a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by VikingLegion

I think all I have left now are 3 RAS books and a Greenwood. It feels so weird now that we are closing in on the end of this project.


So close! Glad you decided to stick with it.

Are you planning any sort of summation once you're finished? How the novel line shaped your view of the Forgotten Realms setting (for better or worse)? Most/least enjoyable series? Overall favorite book, author, character, etc?


AJA
YAFRP
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VikingLegion
Senior Scribe

USA
483 Posts

Posted - 25 Feb 2020 :  00:37:39  Show Profile Send VikingLegion a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Seravin

Viking - all this talk of devils/demons etc from Brimstone Angels, did you ever read Lord Toede by Jeff Grubb? Set in Dragonlance sort of, it is a crazy book that has a large connection to the Abyss and reads more like Planescape than Dragonlance.



Seravin, yes I did read that book. Before this FR project started 5 years ago I did a similar, complete read through of all (166?) Dragonlance novels. Unfortunately I can't remember one single detail of that particular book. Being a Jeff Grubb offering, I flushed it out of my head before closing the final page :P
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VikingLegion
Senior Scribe

USA
483 Posts

Posted - 25 Feb 2020 :  00:45:44  Show Profile Send VikingLegion a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by AJA

quote:
Originally posted by VikingLegion

I think all I have left now are 3 RAS books and a Greenwood. It feels so weird now that we are closing in on the end of this project.


So close! Glad you decided to stick with it.

Are you planning any sort of summation once you're finished? How the novel line shaped your view of the Forgotten Realms setting (for better or worse)? Most/least enjoyable series? Overall favorite book, author, character, etc?





It's likely. If only because there will be a very weird feeling when we get to the end and I hate to see things go away. I get that way even for video games when I know I'm close to completing it, TV series in their final season, etc. You invest so much time in these fictional worlds they become so endearing and almost as important as the real world.

I thought about doing an exhaustive ranking of every author, but scrapped the idea because it might get ugly. And really there's no need to call out the less beloved ones, that's just mean. Even though I've been highly critical of some of them in here, they all still contributed to this wonderful shared world that means so much to us in their own way. But yeah, there will be some kind of final discussion with lots of feels.
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Seravin
Master of Realmslore

Canada
1265 Posts

Posted - 25 Feb 2020 :  09:49:12  Show Profile Send Seravin a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by VikingLegion

quote:
Originally posted by Seravin

Viking - all this talk of devils/demons etc from Brimstone Angels, did you ever read Lord Toede by Jeff Grubb? Set in Dragonlance sort of, it is a crazy book that has a large connection to the Abyss and reads more like Planescape than Dragonlance.



Seravin, yes I did read that book. Before this FR project started 5 years ago I did a similar, complete read through of all (166?) Dragonlance novels. Unfortunately I can't remember one single detail of that particular book. Being a Jeff Grubb offering, I flushed it out of my head before closing the final page :P



I just don't get how anyone could dislike Grubb/Novak's books, they're so good for the genre of D&D novels! But it's all subjective and everyone has their own tastes. I know I get hung up on plot holes and contrivance way more than I should which keeps me from enjoying some popular books, so I can't judge you not liking the more popular authors either.

Looking forward to the summation.
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VikingLegion
Senior Scribe

USA
483 Posts

Posted - 26 Feb 2020 :  17:42:17  Show Profile Send VikingLegion a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Seravin

quote:
Originally posted by VikingLegion

quote:
Originally posted by Seravin

Viking - all this talk of devils/demons etc from Brimstone Angels, did you ever read Lord Toede by Jeff Grubb? Set in Dragonlance sort of, it is a crazy book that has a large connection to the Abyss and reads more like Planescape than Dragonlance.



Seravin, yes I did read that book. Before this FR project started 5 years ago I did a similar, complete read through of all (166?) Dragonlance novels. Unfortunately I can't remember one single detail of that particular book. Being a Jeff Grubb offering, I flushed it out of my head before closing the final page :P



I just don't get how anyone could dislike Grubb/Novak's books, they're so good for the genre of D&D novels! But it's all subjective and everyone has their own tastes. I know I get hung up on plot holes and contrivance way more than I should which keeps me from enjoying some popular books, so I can't judge you not liking the more popular authors either.

Looking forward to the summation.



It's 100% the terrible humor. Grubb has great ideas and is a terrific designer. It's the groan-worthy puns and super obvious, low-hanging-fruit, lame jokes that weigh his works down, they would otherwise be very good. I don't know how you guys can read them without being distracted constantly. I literally have to put the book down every few pages just to roll my eyes at the ceiling, sigh in frustration, shake my head, etc. I just can't stay immersed while he so flagrantly goofs off.
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Hyperion
Acolyte

38 Posts

Posted - 27 Feb 2020 :  09:26:53  Show Profile Send Hyperion a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I love Grubb too. But I guess it's a matter of taste in fantasy, some people prefer it to be dramatic and serious while I find the books with too much drama for the sake of drama exploitation quite annoying, for example Martin. I prefer a fantasy not taking itself too seriously, but it is indeed almost a different genre. The 'serious' fantasy follows the tradition of Epic, while 'funny' fantasy follows an entirely different tradition of folk tales and picaresque stories. Note that Tolkien mastered both genres, as his books contain seamlessly both Epic drama and funny situations. But I'm not sure there is any other living or dead fantasy author who managed the same so well, possibly Terry Pratchett could have, but he chose to stay mostly on the funny side.

Edited by - Hyperion on 27 Feb 2020 09:27:38
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VikingLegion
Senior Scribe

USA
483 Posts

Posted - 29 Feb 2020 :  22:00:36  Show Profile Send VikingLegion a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Hyperion

I love Grubb too. But I guess it's a matter of taste in fantasy, some people prefer it to be dramatic and serious while I find the books with too much drama for the sake of drama exploitation quite annoying, for example Martin. I prefer a fantasy not taking itself too seriously, but it is indeed almost a different genre. The 'serious' fantasy follows the tradition of Epic, while 'funny' fantasy follows an entirely different tradition of folk tales and picaresque stories. Note that Tolkien mastered both genres, as his books contain seamlessly both Epic drama and funny situations. But I'm not sure there is any other living or dead fantasy author who managed the same so well, possibly Terry Pratchett could have, but he chose to stay mostly on the funny side.



I have a smattering of Pratchett's Discworld books and enjoy them. I loved Piers Anthony's Xanth novels many years ago. I consistently maintain that Good Omens and all of the Hitchhiker series are among the most hilarious, charming, and terrific fantasy books I've ever read.

I'm not against humor. You guys must think I'm some kind of grimdark ogre. I love humor. And that is why Grubb's books irk me so. His jokes are so obvious and low budget. Grubb is to humor what Greenwood is to sex/romance.

In another lifetime I had a film teacher who said comedy is by far the hardest thing to pull off successfully. Do drama, do horror, do whatever. But be very careful with comedy unless you have the talent. If I were a tiny bit less lazy I'd go find the post, somewhere in this monstrous thread, where I compiled several of Grubb's most painful zingers. But I won't because nobody should be subjected to that much concentrated Grubb all in one short period of time.

It is truly the most mind-boggling aspect of this entire FR journey that his books are so beloved. I thought maybe it was a nostalgia thing and you guys would agree that they don't withstand the test of time. But if anything I think you all love them even more today. It's a mystery to me that I just cannot solve.
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Seravin
Master of Realmslore

Canada
1265 Posts

Posted - 29 Feb 2020 :  23:55:28  Show Profile Send Seravin a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Haha don't put too much effort into it - different strokes for different folks. I guess because Ed and Jeff formed the Realms as we were introduced to it, I really think Jeff is a better novel writer than Ed - so it feels like his books and Elaine's capture the original Realms the best for me and feel the most immersive. I don't get put off by a pun or a bad joke, at least not enough to throw me out of immersion. I get thrown out of immersion when a plot hole arises that makes no sense to me, or characters act in ways that make absolutely no sense given what we know about them and their situation.

The whole concept of Alias is brilliant to me, and a work of genius in my eyes. The way the story unfolded, with her being asked never to sing again by Elminster before you know why he's asking that of her..I just love the Finder's Stone trilogy so much. I love it now as much as I did when I read it as a kid.

That said I so respect you and your opinions, this is just going to be one of those cases where your opinion is a bit different than the horde. You've explained why you feel the way you do, and it's perfectly reasonable that the writing style is not to your tastes. :)
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VikingLegion
Senior Scribe

USA
483 Posts

Posted - 01 Mar 2020 :  15:27:38  Show Profile Send VikingLegion a Private Message  Reply with Quote
True indeed, Seravin. And now, to avoid beating it to death, I'll move on. I finished Hero a few nights ago. I was struck by the amount and frequency of typos in this book. RAS books are normally squeaky clean of such things, so this definitely stood out. Some were directional mistakes, like "Heading EAST towards the Sword Coast."

It took me awhile to get on board with Drizzt's strange bout with solipsism. But knowing it is a Lolth inspired curse laid upon him makes it a whole lot more palatable. I liked the scene where Jarlaxle and Yvonnel are arguing over why Drizzt can't mend his own mind. Jarlaxle can't understand why he can't simply explain to Drizzt that it is an illness and have him "get over it", while Yvonnel understands it runs much deeper than that. It was very obviously RAS allegorically writing about the current state of mental illness and all the misconceptions that go along with it, but I found it to be effective. At one point, a less mature version of myself wondered why a mentally ill individual can't simply have that pointed out to them and then get better.

The assault of gods-awful names continues. Now we have Toofless Tonguelasher and Captain Mallabie Pudwinker to join the All-Time list.
Speaking of captains and boats, I thought it absurd that Regis - with genasi blood in him and a well-documented affinity for the ocean in his second life - would become seasick on their short ocean voyage.

I liked seeing Shakti Hunzrin and her House play a role in the machinations of Menzoberranzan. I'm not sure if Elaine has continued to read this thread, now that we've advanced so far beyond her last contribution to the novel line. But if she does, I wonder if it pleases her to see her creation live on in another's work.

I LOVED the monk training sequences in the Yellow Rose Monastery. I could read an entire 400 page book that had nothing but monks going about their daily lives, training, meditating, attaining higher mastery, etc. I touched on this before, but obviously RAS feels the same way. Drizzt is very intrigued by the mental discipline of these ascetics, and has expressed a desire to continue learning their ways in the future once he ties up some other loose ends - a prospect that has me very excited.

Another behir appeared in this book, making it two straight novels, so that was awesome.

I liked Enteri's redemption arc for the most part. RAS didn't try to turn him into a choir boy, he's still very rough around the edges, but at least there's a spark of hope in him. Yvonnel, on the other hand, I'm having a hard time buying in on. I think it's a cool idea that her Second Life self is full of questions regarding the status quo and wants to shake things up a bit, but her transformation from Drizzt nemesis to championing his cause was a bit too abrupt. And to be honest I'm not even sure if she really is trying to help him or simply wants to cure him to make his punishment more severe, as she keeps "bluffing" (I think) to the yochlol.

Lastly, around page 400 this one started to fall off the rails a bit, starting with a really weird encounter with Lolth. I've expressed my disdain in the past for any direct encounters with deities, and this one was no exception. It just feels like there's no rhyme or reason governing the gods of Forgotten Realms - they can be near omnipotent forces one minute, directly deciding events on Toril, and the next they are behind the scenes schemers, only able to subtly influence through the clever use of their adherents. They can be omniscient one moment, and then stumbling buffoons the next, more akin to the Greek gods with all their faults and human foibles. If Lolth can manifest in all her glory, like she did towards the end of this book, why wouldn't she do so in other, more critical moments? Like, I don't know... the Siege of Mithril Hall a century ago, when the battle hung on a razor's edge. Her addition to the drow lines would've overwhelmingly tipped that war into the hands of the dark elves.

Moving on, I'm about halfway through the final Greenwood book (for now anyway), Death Masks.

Edited by - VikingLegion on 01 Mar 2020 15:29:22
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Seravin
Master of Realmslore

Canada
1265 Posts

Posted - 07 Mar 2020 :  10:18:42  Show Profile Send Seravin a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Lastly, around page 400 this one started to fall off the rails a bit, starting with a really weird encounter with Lolth. I've expressed my disdain in the past for any direct encounters with deities, and this one was no exception. It just feels like there's no rhyme or reason governing the gods of Forgotten Realms - they can be near omnipotent forces one minute, directly deciding events on Toril, and the next they are behind the scenes schemers, only able to subtly influence through the clever use of their adherents. They can be omniscient one moment, and then stumbling buffoons the next, more akin to the Greek gods with all their faults and human foibles. If Lolth can manifest in all her glory, like she did towards the end of this book, why wouldn't she do so in other, more critical moments? Like, I don't know... the Siege of Mithril Hall a century ago, when the battle hung on a razor's edge. Her addition to the drow lines would've overwhelmingly tipped that war into the hands of the dark elves.


I could not agree more on this point throughout the novels. For a shared setting, this inconsistency probably bothered me most of all. I mean it's like the Avatar trilogy where gods became mortals and walked the earth was used as a way to make the Gods of Faerun permanently bumbling, fallable idiots like the Greek mythos from that point on for some books; while in others the Gods are all-knowing, all-powerful entities who never get their hands muddied in the affairs of mortals.

I always hated how the evil gods took a huge interest to move plots forward, while their hated counterparts would just let innocent worshipers suffer greatly because of it. Like you don't get it both ways, writers. If I was editor of the Realms, unless it was the avatar crisis, gods would be off limits for authors to use as characters in their books. Use their priests and ONLY IF YOU MUST their Chossen, but never the actual dieties in your books as speaking characters or plot movers.

That would be rule #1.
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VikingLegion
Senior Scribe

USA
483 Posts

Posted - 07 Mar 2020 :  11:54:14  Show Profile Send VikingLegion a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I finished Death Masks several days ago. This one started off fairly interesting, Masked Lords of Waterdeep are being murdered one by one and replaced with political stooges that are more malleable to the one behind it all. It eventually spiraled out of control with the typical absurd body count and disposable NPC after NPC coming and going so fast you couldn't even commit their names to memory. Still, it was a fairly decent effort overall.

I don't normally enjoy Mirt as a character, but his interactions with the 3 Dock Ward whores he recruited to be his spy team were pretty amusing.

There was a really interesting musing from the Xanathar on the nature of human success, it was one of my favorite moments in all the Greenwood books:
"All humans were expendable, was that not obvious? Yet these humans, like the one trembling and stinking of fear across the room right now, persisted in believing they were special, they alone would be spared.
Perhaps that was how humans had accomplished so much, flourishing and spreading across the world so quickly at the expense of all others.
They just didn't know any better."


Think about every campaign world from TSR/WoTC, are any of them not humanocentric? Other races like elves and dwarves always seem to be few and far-flung, or had once mighty empires but are now in decline as a race. I mean, obviously this is done to make the settings more relatable to the audience, but wouldn't it be neat to see a world that is dominated by say... orcs, with humankind relegated to small pockets of resistance?

The presence of Mordenkainen in this story was jarring and utterly unnecessary. He was explained as a "wizard from Oerth" without ever explaining that that is another planet entirely. Maybe Ed left if vague on purpose for readers that aren't aware of other settings and would simply read that as some far-off location on Toril they don't know of. Anyway, he added absolutely nothing to the story and I can't figure out why he was even there, other than a desire by WotC to sort of mesh and meld everything together - like relocating Acererak and his iconic Tomb of Horrors from Greyhawk to Forgotten Realms. As a fan of all the settings rather than just one, I find this distasteful. But from a business standpoint I can understand why they want to cherry-pick from all around and put it under one roof.

And then there was they typical EG weirdness. Mega-powerful items like a Staff of the Magi just hanging out in a palace closet for anyone to stumble across. Tasheene, the murderess responsible for so much misery throughout this story having a moment of clarity at the end and then going home with Mirt and his one remaining whore for a potential sexual threesome. And did I read it wrong or did Belvarra, the human follower of Asmodeus fall in love with Suthool the illithid? Speaking of which, every other writer portrays illithids as these otherworldly, totally alien beings, nearly incomprehensible to mere humans. But in this one we see him as the same snarky, vain, arrogant villain template that is used over and over. His dialogue wouldn't need to change by even one syllable if he were instead a Zhentarim mage, a Cult of the Dragon priest, an ancient lich, etc.

I got excited a bit towards the end when both Laeral and Elminster's bodies were destroyed (by some no-name mage who just kind of appeared from stage-left). I dared to dream, what with the novel line all but defunct, this was the actual end of these characters, but of course they just merged with the Weave and ended up in new physical forms.

Up next, I'm about 3/4 through the next RAS book already - Timeless.

Edited by - VikingLegion on 07 Mar 2020 11:58:19
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Irennan
Great Reader

Italy
3802 Posts

Posted - 07 Mar 2020 :  16:04:34  Show Profile Send Irennan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I enjoyed all the tidbits of lore that Death Masks gave us about the new Waterdeep and some mentions of the happenings all over Faerun. With the sparse amount of material in 5e, and with RA being the one remaining novelist (which means 0 info about the Realms), I welcomed these small details. I also like the concept of Weaveghosts, which Ed introduces in his previous books and continues in Death Masks. Yes, it makes all choen of Mystra essentially immortal body-hopping entites, but it's a cool detail IMHO--especially because, in general, they don't immediately get a new body. Dove and Syluné are still Weave ghosts, and Ed recently explained that Qilué is one too, and has been for a century or so (though Eilistraee currently gives Qilué acces to her realm, so she's not limited to the Weave). The hint of Khelben's presence in the Blackstaff fragment was interesting too.

As for Laeral staying dead, I have to disagree with you on this one. I like Laeral as Open Lord of Waterdeep. From a setting/worldbuilding PoV, it would have been rather pointless for her to reappear after being MIA for 100+ years, become Open Lord, and then die in a random fight (or was it a trap)? It already happened with Dove (though she became a Weaveghost), I certainly didn't want to see it happene again with Laeral. Besides, she's not all that powerful anymore, so the previous problems of the "FR justice league" no longer exists (honestly, this is what they should have done in 4e, rather than removing a lot of characters that people loved).

Of course, I also loved the fact that we get a few info about Eilistraee's current doings in the post-Sundering realms, and her followers forming a community in Waterdeep with the sponsorship of the Harpers, but then again, I'm biased in this regard.

Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things.

Edited by - Irennan on 07 Mar 2020 16:22:19
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VikingLegion
Senior Scribe

USA
483 Posts

Posted - 07 Mar 2020 :  21:44:53  Show Profile Send VikingLegion a Private Message  Reply with Quote
How did you feel about the human citizens of Waterdeep, whom I have to assume are primarily pale-skinned humans, painting themselves black to dance around and honor Eilistrae? I thought that was.... interesting?
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Irennan
Great Reader

Italy
3802 Posts

Posted - 07 Mar 2020 :  21:55:20  Show Profile Send Irennan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Blackface analogies immediately come to mind. Blackface in FR has no historical background, and this particular episode is not meant as a caricature but as a celebration, so there's no in-universe racist implications (whereas IRL it was born for remarkably racist purposes). So, this is not on the level of "good is but a shade lighter" of LP (which also brought along other extremely gross messages with its ending, like changing yourself so that racist people can be pleased with you), but I would have personally avoided it due to how easily it can be associated to IRL blackface.

Also, personally, I don't really like it (in the same way as I don't like that some non-drow followers paint themselves black to worship Eilistraee), because Eilistraee fights for acceptance (among the other things) and so that diversity is appreciated, so dressing as a drow to worship her misses the point. Then again, this particular bit (i.e. how to worship) is a matter of individual interpretation, and Eilistraee's worship is free-form--some followers might see it as a good way to display appreciation.

That said, re: most Waterdhavians having pale skin: at least in the current era, Waterdeep citizens should be quite varied, and the new Blackstaff herself is a POC.

Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things.

Edited by - Irennan on 08 Mar 2020 01:16:30
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
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Posted - 08 Mar 2020 :  05:36:09  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Having not read this book, but seen comments about it... Are drow openly accepted in Waterdeep, now?

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Irennan
Great Reader

Italy
3802 Posts

Posted - 08 Mar 2020 :  15:27:53  Show Profile Send Irennan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

Having not read this book, but seen comments about it... Are drow openly accepted in Waterdeep, now?



There's a lot of skepticism still, but there's also acceptance and even some appreciation (as some taverns even put up drow-themed shows following the influx of followers of Eilistraee).

Basically, in 1491 DR, Eilistraee showed up dancing under the walls of Waterdeep, which led many of her followers to travel to the city with the goal of forming a community within it.

Some of them (led by a priestess named Trelasarra Zuind) contacted Remallia Haventree, representative of the Harpers, and persuaded her to grant them the sponsorship of her faction. They then proceeded to create a tree grove/temple in the city (they intended to buy old buildings in the Field Ward and then demolish them to create the forest, but due to the developments in the area--I'm guessing after Tyranny of Dragons--they settled for a small tree grove in a roofless, abandoned building in the Northern Ward). From there, they also led a series of operations to retake the Promenade, and currently the two sister shrines offer the followers of Eilistraee a base of operations both on the surface and in the Underdark of Waterdeep.

https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/wiki/The_Dancing_Haven
https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/wiki/Trelasarra_Zuind

Waterdhavians' reaction to this, as I said, was mixed. But it's not the first time followers of Eilistraee create a community within a non-drow city (Raven's Bluff, Elventree--heck, even ancient Cormanthyr, which saw the largest Eilistraeen settlement since Miyeritar, until Myth Drannor fell and all went to ruin).

Generally speaking, I can see why some people might dislike this development, but it makes sense, given how Eilistraee and her follower have acted throughout the ages. Also, Laeral's closest sister is Qilué; she's worked with the Eilistraeens for a long time, and she's the current Open Lord, so...
That said, followers of Eilistraee have several methods to to gain a place in non-drow cities, and to give people incentives to support them. They've also worked for millennia towards that goal, so things are bound to change, even if just a little.

1)Eilistraeens often operate offering cures, food, and clothing for the poor, or those who need them (see Raven's Bluff), which is certainly useful.

2)Eilistraee is an artist goddess; her clerics are always artists, and they can gain at least some appreciation with dances, music, acting, etc... Also, this can bring income to cities (this was quite obvious, but see Raven's Bluff again, for example).

3)Eilistraeens can offer insight and help against threats, esepcially Underdark threats. Some of them are bound to have some expertise in dealing with Lolthite tactics (see the alliance with Coronal Tannivh in Myth Drannor that I mentioned before).

4)Eilistraeens do trade. They even control certain Underdak trade routes (see the City of Raven's Bluff book), and are known to encourage/promote non-slavery drow trade (they can use their moonsong to teleport drow merchants and goods from the Underdark to the surface, and are know to act as guides for drow merchants on the surface--see the Seven Sisters book). They also trade exotic drowcraft goods themselves (along with their art, this is how they won the support of the Yarvandar (sp) family in Raven's Bluff).

5)They have learned to find (if any) key individuals that are more likely to give support, and win them over. They were tyring this with Evermeet too, but then the Spellplague happened and that never went anywhere.

Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things.

Edited by - Irennan on 08 Mar 2020 15:52:35
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
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Posted - 08 Mar 2020 :  16:28:16  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I don't dislike the development, I was just looking for more info.

I'm not sure that I'd run with it, but then again, I'm unlikely to run anything in that era, so it's kinda moot.

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Irennan
Great Reader

Italy
3802 Posts

Posted - 08 Mar 2020 :  16:41:49  Show Profile Send Irennan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Oh, the commentray wasn't addressed specifically to you. I saw many people claiming that this development would be impossible, so I put that there preemptively.

Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things.
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Renin
Learned Scribe

USA
290 Posts

Posted - 08 Mar 2020 :  17:32:55  Show Profile Send Renin a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Ugh. This book.

I read 'Hero' before Death Masks. Honestly a coin flip for which made me feel worst as the *last* ever Realms novel. I've unfortunately stopped liking most of Mr. Greenwood's novels a while ago (but would sit on the floor by his knee in front of a fireplace to hear him spin yarns of heroes and places of lore from times past forever. there's a difference there).

I know from the Mages & Sages that it's always brought up that the 'almighty editors' hatchet job his books...well then..rewrite it. I know I say that simply enough here at my computer, but, hey...if the company just chucks out chapters and doesn't do anything to fix the incongruencies, or if the writer doesn't adapt enough...then it's nonsense.

And this is nonsense, to me.
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Seravin
Master of Realmslore

Canada
1265 Posts

Posted - 08 Mar 2020 :  17:53:23  Show Profile Send Seravin a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Hah Renin - I don't think anyone will disagree with you that Ed's writing style is not for everyone (nor anyone here would disagree he's one of the best world builders the planet Earth has ever seen! Honestly up there with Tolkien and Mr Martin).

I enjoy a few books of Ed's that I actually do read over and over; but by and large it's not my cup of tea either. I kind of enjoy his short stories, because they're contained and usually not too full of deus ex machina or plot holes. Elminster in Hell was basically a collection of short stories wrapped in a larger novel, and I like it. I actually enjoy Crown of Fire weirdly (though have too many issues with Spellfire and Hand of Fire to enjoy them, so go figure).

I tried to read the Elminster Enraged series, and just couldn't get into the new era + Ed's writing style. So Death Masks will never be a book I read, I suspect.
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Renin
Learned Scribe

USA
290 Posts

Posted - 08 Mar 2020 :  18:43:12  Show Profile Send Renin a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Perhaps due to what I perceive are Ed's greatest strengths (spinning yarns, small stories and quick tales) I actually like all the memories of Elminster's from '-in Hell.':D The larger meta-plot made little difference to me, but that was a book where I really enjoyed seeing how crafty, cunning, and a bit of how much of bastard Elminster could be. So, THAT one I liked! lol

I cannot enjoy any bit of the Shandril Saga. There is nothing there for me. But, imperfect as it was as a collaboration, I did like City of Waterdeep with Elaine Cunningham. That said....I'm just like everyone else; immensely saddened and disappointed that the Realms novels are no more. Now, I just buy up whatever bit Ed is involved with on DMsguild, and follow his Twitter account to see whatever lore he dispenses there.

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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore

Australia
6641 Posts

Posted - 09 Mar 2020 :  00:38:40  Show Profile Send George Krashos a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Re the Mordenkainen cameo in “Death Masks”: this appeared on account of WotC editorial directive.

— George Krashos

"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
36779 Posts

Posted - 09 Mar 2020 :  03:04:31  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos

Re the Mordenkainen cameo in “Death Masks”: this appeared on account of WotC editorial directive.

— George Krashos



I wondered why he was in there.

...Now I wonder why they wanted him there. Was it just an odd tie-in to the book they slapped Mordy's name on?

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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore

Australia
6641 Posts

Posted - 09 Mar 2020 :  13:43:41  Show Profile Send George Krashos a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I suspect so.

— George Krashos

"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus
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Irennan
Great Reader

Italy
3802 Posts

Posted - 09 Mar 2020 :  14:53:54  Show Profile Send Irennan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Yeah; Mord had also been in Ravenloft for their Ravenloft module; they wanted to a tie-in to both books. Same as the giant fortress cameo and the tie-in to SKT.

Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things.
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VikingLegion
Senior Scribe

USA
483 Posts

Posted - 12 Mar 2020 :  15:18:57  Show Profile Send VikingLegion a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos

Re the Mordenkainen cameo in “Death Masks”: this appeared on account of WotC editorial directive.

— George Krashos



Yep, that tracks. I expected as much, but was hoping for something else.

I finished Timeless a few days ago. Bob's summation of the Underdark on page 19 gave me chills. I know a lot of people reading this will probably disagree. Maybe you have succumbed to "Drizzt oversaturation" like many have, myself included at times. Also there is always a subset in any fandom that rejects the most popular aspects just for the sake of being counter-culture. There's no doubt that after churning out some 30+ of these novels, RAS has become a victim of his own success and something of a critical whipping boy on this site for being a WoTC cash-cow. I get all that. But reading these few pages took me back to the magic and wonder I experienced in my teens reading Homeland for the very first time. A lot of you wax nostalgiac about the Alias books by Grubb/Novak for that old-fashioned Realmsian goodness it fills you with - for me it was the first 6 RAS novels (the Crystal Shard trilogy and the Dark Elf trilogy) that transformed the Forgotten Realms from a pretty cool medieval fantasy setting with some potential to something that really stood out from the pack that I could fall in love with. Anyway, that little 3 page intro leading into chapter 1 was like a time machine for me - erasing the years and transporting me to a time before we all got so cynical and weary of drow and the rule-of-cool taking over fantasy.

Briza's heritage, I loved it. I always wondered why she was so physically different from the other Do-Urdens, but I never made a connection to her and Uthegentel. Very early in this book I did start to connect those dots, but wasn't sure if the timelines worked out and if Uthegentle was old enough to be her sire. But it turned out to be true and I had to wonder if this was something RAS had plotted out over 30 years ago, or if he just came up with it for this novel?

I have mixed feelings about Zak's return. Too much of the last few books have been about resurrecting the past, and some dead things should remain so. On the other hand the sparring session with Drizzt was another one of those time capsule moments that gave me pure joy. I really disliked the fleshing out of Zak's friendship with Jarlaxle though - it really undermines the character of Zak as an utterly frustrated and hopeless soul that we got from the Dark Elf books. There he was portrayed as a prisoner of Menzoberranzan, no friends, no solace, nothing to break the everlasting siege of his existence aside from the savage joy he took in slaying Lolthite priestesses. Now that we see he palled around with Jarlaxle, left the city to visit Ched Nassad on a swashbuckling adventure, and even flirted with joining Bregan D'Arthe full time really seems at odds with what I knew about him.

Speaking of BD, a little while back I postulated on female members, and here we see Jeyrelle Fey, a non-Lolth priestess, as Irennan pointed out on the previous page. Yep, she showed up for a paragraph or three and then just poofed into thin air.

On page 278 there was a funny bit of political humor if you look closely at a certain spell incantation, but I won't share it here in case it offends anyone. If this were a Grubb novel I would be lambasting him for goofing off and sneaking real world stuff into an FR book, so it turns out I'm a bit of a hypocrite for chuckling at this inclusion. My bad, I guess :)

I think Jarlaxle and his toys are getting a bit overboard. I get that being ultra-prepared is his schtick, as well as being a hoarder of every magical doodad he can get his hands on, but at this point he's coming off as a cartoony Inspector Gadget. It's just a bit much.

Once again I loved the sort of Monk path Drizzt is starting down, but I'm not so sure about how quickly he is advancing. I get the physical aspect - he is an amazingly gifted natural athlete, so he will take to that quickly. Also he's been a warrior all his life so there is going to be lots of carryover between the martial disciplines. I'm fine with all that, if he wants to start incorporating circle kicks into his attack routines, or he surprisingly throws Zaknafein into an arm-bar during their match, that's great and I have no problem with it. But for him to be able to coax the marilith poison out of his calf after being stung simply by being so in tune with his body seemed like a discipline it would take years of aesthetic life and study to master, not the weeks or months he spent at the Yellow Rose Monastery. I'm too lazy to get out my PHB and look up at which level a PC monk gains poison immunity, but it is certainly no novice feat!

Ok, well that's all for now. There is another Drizzt book, Boundless, but I don't own it yet. I'm waiting for the paperback which I think comes out in April, simply because my bookcases are so filled at this point it's coming down to available space! And now we are so current that I think the purpose of this thread has pretty much been fulfilled - it was initially made for more of a nostalgia bit, as we relive the Realms throughout the ages. Anything I could add now would probably belong better in threads specifically for that book. So, I guess that's it? Feels like a very bittersweet ending. If I have some time this weekend I'll try to post that summation, but anyone else can feel free to do the same.

It's not really relevant here, but in case anyone is wondering I still have a smattering of D&D books to read from other settings. I have 5 or 6 Birthright novels, a whole bunch of Greyhawk/Mystara stuff I need to organize, and currently I've started the 6-part Cloakmaster series which starts off in the Dragonlance setting but is all about Spelljammer.

Edited by - VikingLegion on 12 Mar 2020 15:20:23
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VikingLegion
Senior Scribe

USA
483 Posts

Posted - 12 Mar 2020 :  15:26:31  Show Profile Send VikingLegion a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by VikingLegion

Greetings fellow Realms enthusiasts,

Several years ago I made a goal to read *every* novel from the major D&D worlds/settings. After blasting through the smaller libraries of Darksun, Ravenloft, and Planescape, I decided to tackle Dragonlance. Just recently I finished my 166th and final Dragonlance book. And now I have my sights set on the Forgotten Realms, a no-doubt Herculean task that will make DL easy by comparison.

*SNIP*



May 24th, 2015 - just a couple months shy of the 5-year anniversary of this thread. It's been quite a voyage!
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Iahn Qoyllor
Acolyte

United Kingdom
46 Posts

Posted - 13 Mar 2020 :  09:25:55  Show Profile Send Iahn Qoyllor a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Wow, mate, so sad to hear that this journey has essentially ended (Boundless aside), however I have looked forward to each and every one of your posts. It has been an absolute pleasure reading all your reviews and I have been so grateful for the time you've put in conveying your thoughts and feelings to us all here. Would be great to see summation if you get time!

I finished the Realms books a couple of years ago and have since dipped into Dragonlance, Ravenloft and Greyhawk as my next mission, however have stuck with the Dark Sun novels for now and am on number 7 out of 16. Nothing can replace the Realms though...
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Demzer
Senior Scribe

873 Posts

Posted - 13 Mar 2020 :  10:57:13  Show Profile Send Demzer a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I've joined this thread late, mostly lurked and commented sparingly (and I think almost always to disagree on some interpretation - sorry! - or throw in some canon game-material information) but I enjoyed every line of your posts.

This thread helped keep the Realms novel line alive even for someone like me that only dipped into it (and I've followed or will follow some of your recommendations).

I bow to your dedication to the Realms (and to book-reading in general) for pulling this off.
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